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Author Topic: Is it possible to remove cylinder head in car?  (Read 3279 times)
macaroni
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« on: May 21, 2010, 05:15:20 pm »

Hi,
urgent question as above? It looks tricky as having to remove the timing chain looks nigh on impossible.

Any advice gratefully received.

Antony
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michaltalbot
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« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2010, 07:47:38 pm »

It is possible, I did it on my silver 2,2 three times  Roll Eyes but it's very difficult, because of rests of oil and water from head will fall into cylinders and cylinder block canals, also demounting of timing chain is not easy, You have to demount upper timing wheel from camshaft, but don't forget to fix the timing chain tensioner! It is accesible from exhaust side of the engine after demounting the small screew-cap near the water pump. After removing the upper cover You have to fix the timing chain by welding wire (for ex.) when putting it through the chain right in the place, where upper cover is touching the lower cover. Than take out the timing wheel and rest of the timing chain could lie on the welding wire. Than remove the head.
For mounting back - after assemblage of the cyl.head with cyl.block, and timing wheel + camshaft, at first You have to tighten the screws on upper cover to cyl.head at first!!!!! And after that You could tighten the cyl.head to cyl.block well. That's really important, because in the upper cover are the gears for distributor, and if You tighten the head at first the mass of cyl.head gasket will move the upper cover (very little but it will and doesn't matter that there are two small rings between head and cover) and will make an incorrect press between distributor gears. This advice is from Milan Dobes, who is well know in Europe for servicing the Chrysler-Simca engines (I mean Chrysler 180 and 2Litres) which are nearly the same as our 2,2.
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roy4matra
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« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2010, 12:20:46 am »

Hi,
urgent question as above? It looks tricky as having to remove the timing chain looks nigh on impossible.

Any advice gratefully received.

Antony

This is where knowing the car makes things easier.  To get the additional room on the timing case end of the engine, to work on things like the timing chain, cam gear, water pump etc, you support the gearbox, remove the mounting bolt, and lower the gearbox.  The whole assembly will pivot and the upper timing case will move away from the inner wing.

Are you thinking of removing the head because of the non-start in the other thread?  Have you pin-pointed the actual fault?  Removing the head without knowing the fault is wasting a lot of time, effort, and money.  And it may simply not be necessary.  Nor cure the fault, if it is something else...

Roy
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macaroni
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« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2010, 09:20:19 pm »

Thanks for the advice chaps.
The starting problem was traced to a wire rubbing on the inlet manifold and shorting out. Once running, the car ran badly and after a chemical check, a leaking head gasket was diagnosed. I have no idea whether this is actually the case or not, so I have to trust them.
Having said that, on one of the rare occasions in the last few months when it has worked, I took it for a spin and it boiled over. I couldn't figure out why till I found the auxiliary belt had come off, for some stupid reason.

Anyway, the engine is out now, so I'll get them to tidy up the loom and hopefully fix the leaking diff seal at the same time.

I'll keep y'all posted.
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2010, 09:27:17 pm »

It's great to hear it's progressing, Anthony! Smiley
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suffolkpete
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« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2010, 01:00:16 pm »

Quote
Once running, the car ran badly and after a chemical check, a leaking head gasket was diagnosed
  I've never heard of this technique before, I've always relied on symptoms such as water loss, steam from the exhaust, uneven compressions etc for my diagnoses.  To satisfy my curiosity, can someone enlighten me as to how it works.
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GP
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« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2010, 10:31:36 pm »

Hi,
urgent question as above? It looks tricky as having to remove the timing chain looks nigh on impossible.

Any advice gratefully received.

Antony

Here is a nice little link telling us all about the timing chain tensioner which should be of general interest:

http://www.505turbo.com/peugeot_505_turbo_timing_chain_tensioner_guide.php

GP
« Last Edit: May 23, 2010, 10:33:37 pm by GP » Logged
macaroni
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« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2010, 09:04:36 pm »

OK, well the head gasket was OK, but the head was warped which doesn't surprise me. The mechanic claimed to know how to set the tensioner up (trust...) and claimed the timing was out by one tooth, which again doesn't surprise me.
They have also got the naughty nearside driveshaft out, by disassembling the diff.

So, if all goes well, I will have a non-leaking, nice-running, first-time-starting Murena.

What are the chances?
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suffolkpete
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« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2010, 10:03:38 pm »

We can but hope.  If it turns out ok, then before you decide to sell it, take for a few good runs and remind yourself what a good well-sorted Murena is like. Smiley
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roy4matra
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« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2010, 09:40:54 am »

Quote
Once running, the car ran badly and after a chemical check, a leaking head gasket was diagnosed
 I've never heard of this technique before, I've always relied on symptoms such as water loss, steam from the exhaust, uneven compressions etc for my diagnoses.  To satisfy my curiosity, can someone enlighten me as to how it works.

Peter, I assume this is the fluid that changes colour.  Has been used for years in the trade.  It works like this: you put this fluid in a special container that is attached to the radiator or header tank instead of the normal pressure cap.  Run the engine and if the head is leaking, the gasses that get into the cooling system cause the fluid to change colour.  It works but in my experience if it is leaking into the coolant sufficiently for this to work clearly, you can usually see the bubbles in the coolant anyway!  However, if it was a very small leak and there were no bubbles it might still show up and pinpoint the fault although you were not sure.

If the head is bad enough to be warped, I would expect it to be cracked.  So it need examining very carefully before re-use.  Also if the head is warped - by how much?  You can only skim the head once in its life and only to a max. of 12 thou. AND a thicker head gasket was supposed to be used afterwards.  I've never seen any of these available today.  Has the head ever been skimmed in before?  Can you be certain no previous owner had it skimmed?  This is why you must measure it carefully before machining.  And the timing case must be bolted to the head before machining which most people forget!   So the head will need to be measured carefully before/after a skim to check it is still inside limits.  Too much off will allow the valve to touch the pistons.  All this and more is in an article in the next club magazine...

Andy - Colourtune plugs can be useful, I have had one myself since the seventies, but if you knew the Murena and the plug location you might re-consider it on this engine!

Roy
« Last Edit: May 25, 2010, 09:59:24 am by roy4matra » Logged

suffolkpete
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« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2010, 07:27:13 pm »

Thanks for the explanation Roy.  It's at times like this I feel glad to own a 1.6.  A salutary lesson to all owners of vehicles with alloy heads, though, not to let them overheat.  At least with the Murena it's well instrumented.  Owners of lesser vehicles have to make do with a temperature warning light, or "knackered engine light" as it's known in some quarters Smiley
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