Champion coil packs for V6

[Ralph2]

Does anyone know if Champion coils are available for the V6 and where to get them? The Sagem coils fitted as standard are pretty unreliable and I've fitted Champion coils to my wife's Fiat Stilo for this reason. Those I got through Fiat, but my local Renault Agent only stocks the Sagem ones.

Ralph

[Anders Dinsen]

The coil pack for Avantime (and all other cars with that engine, including Espace 24V) is a custom designed unit made to fit between the cams of that engine. I sincerely doubt if anyone else makes it. But you can try your Peugeot or Citroen dealers.

The ignition module is known to cause problems, and it is costly because it is custom made to the engine and one big module instead of three seperate coils. I don't think it is less unreliable than other coil modules and I think the key to ensure that it lasts is to keep the connectors and ignition cables clean and in good shape.

- Anders

[Ralph2]

Yep I think you are right Anders I cannot find another manufacturer here (in UK). I've been doing some asking around and it seems there has been at least one and maybe two attempts by Sagem to make these coils more reliable. Each version comes with a code which  might be something like:

Mk 1 = no paint dots
Mk 2 = 1 paint dot, colour unknown
Mk 3 = 2 paint dots, possibly white and green

My dealer has coils with one blue paint dot on them so I'm uncertain of what to do! I want to replace the back three coils with the latest versions in one go as they are difficult to change. Anyone got more info?

Ralph2

[Anders Dinsen]

I want to replace the back three coils with the latest versions in one go as they are difficult to change.

Ups, I assumed the Avantime had the same as the Espace, with three coils located in the front bank and leads to the spark plugs in the rear bank - but are you saying there's a seperate coil pack on the rear bank?

In that case I agree... and replace the spark plugs at the same time.

[Ralph2]

Yes they are separate coils on the Avantime. For now I have bought one spare to carry with me, only useful if a front coil goes, the back ones need a lot of work to get to.....

My wifes car is a Fiat Abarth with Sagem coils and two have failed in 30,000 miles. Fiat are now using Champion so I have changed all 5 to Champion... err...I think I said that already...

[Ralph2]

My, was it really a year ago i wrote that last post?

Since then I HAVE had a rear coil go, replaced all three with new ones after working out how to get all the induction off. Not a job for a non mechanic, but if you've worked on your car before it's not too bad. The actual dismantling and mantling up again took perhaps an hour and a half. Next time it would probably be half that. The hardest part is probably getting the left hand coil fitted.

I did not fit new plugs because of the extrordinary cost. They are supposed to be changed at 72,000 MILES and mine have still only done 32,000 a year later so it seemed like overkill.

What have i learnt in a year? I've learnt you don't call them coil packs, they are pencil coils (my topic heading was misleading, sorry Anders!).

I've also learnt that fitting new coils will probably not decrease the likelyhood of failure. Possibly it has the opposite effect. The theory being that if a coil works for a year it will probably keep on working. A new one is just another potential early failure. 

I've learnt that the coil failures are most likely caused by temperature cycles. This explains the V6 being more prone than the 2 litre (more heat) and the rear bank being more prone than the front (even more heat).

And I've learnt that running an Avantime is more of a vocation than a hobby. But I already knew that, after all it IS a Matra!

Ralph

[Anders Dinsen]

I really like the way you term the Avantime to be a vocation more than a hobby. I had to look the word up, but I understand it now. I have at times felt the same with my Murena and various Espace's!

Getting the induction off... yes, that shouldn't be easy. But if you can do it an hour, it must be easier than on the Espace, where the engine has to be lowered 5 cm to get access to the rear bolts on the manifold. That, however, has the advantage of a "coil pack" located on the front bank of the engine between the cam covers, meaning that it can actually be replaced without doing the manifold job - the spark plugs can't of course.

I hope you still like your car, however. I (and my wife!) still dream of the Avantime. We don't think we can afford it, though

[roy4matra]

Does anyone know if Champion coils are available for the V6 and where to get them? The Sagem coils fitted as standard are pretty unreliable and I've fitted Champion coils to my wife's Fiat Stilo for this reason. Those I got through Fiat, but my local Renault Agent only stocks the Sagem ones.

Ralph

As you now realise the Avantime uses separate 'pencil coils' not a coil pack like earlier engines.  I only know of Sagem coils for the Avantime up to now, but there's hope that one of the other companies might produce some soon.  The best are Denso, which very rarely fail, followed by Beru and Champion, the Sagem ones are definitely the worst!  One problem is certainly heat that causes them to fail, but the manufacturer also issued some special white grease that was supposed to be used (I assume it helps with heat dissipation) and were insisting it must be used.  Trouble is the tube of grease (sufficient for about 80 coils) is £80 to the dealer!!  We questioned it, especially as they don't issue small amounts with each coil when sold direct to a customer, yet they were even rejecting dealer warranty if it wasn't used!

Forget colour markings, if you need to know their date of manufacture, they have a number code stamped on the casing.  It should be a four digit number with one number slightly separate.  That digit is the year and the other three are the day number.  So for instance '123 4' would be the 123rd day of 2004.  The year number could be first instead of last.

Roy

[Ralph2]

the manufacturer also issued some special white grease that was supposed to be used (I assume it helps with heat dissipation) and were insisting it must be used.  Trouble is the tube of grease (sufficient for about 80 coils) is £80 to the dealer!! 

  Heat dissipation, or heat insulation maybe? Either way, sounds like they are getting their supplies from NASA.

Thanks for the info Roy, I will look out for the date codes.

And yes I still love my car Anders, I'm sorry that motoring is so expensive in Denmark. I count myself lucky that I can afford to run the Avantime in the UK, just..

[suffolkpete]

I think the white grease to which Roy refers is silicone grease, used extensively in the electronics industry.  It has good thermal conducting properties, electrical resistance and waterproofing, which I think is why Renault specifies its use.  You can buy a tube of it for about a fiver from electronic component suppliers.

[roy4matra]

I think the white grease to which Roy refers is silicone grease, used extensively in the electronics industry.  It has good thermal conducting properties, electrical resistance and waterproofing, which I think is why Renault specifies its use.  You can buy a tube of it for about a fiver from electronic component suppliers.

No sorry Peter, this is not silicone, but a flourinated grease.  Since we found most often that the coils suffered more in engine bays that had a smaller space for cooling air around the engine, I suspect that temperature had a lot to do with the failures, but that was never proved.  In fact the Japanese Nippon Denso coils hardy ever gave problems whereas the French Sagem coils were always burning out, so a lot was actually down to simply the quality of the parts.  Unfortunately Nippon Denso never made a coil for the V6 only the four cylinder engines.

The Sagem coils used to burn sideways right through the plastic casing and track to earth!

Roy