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Author Topic: Murena & Espace user from the Arctic Circle  (Read 3347 times)
floj116polar
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« on: May 15, 2013, 11:36:55 am »

Ciao everybody,

great forum, which helped me already to locate several problems in my Murena.

Here's my short intro:

I bought my Murena 2.2 four years ago in Switzerland and drove it up to Rovaniemi, Finland, at the Arctic Circle, where I live. There I have also a rare Matra-Renault Espace j116 Quadra, which I use as main car. The Murena is my hobby for the warmer half of the year. So I haven't installed an engine warmer, for example, nor mount winter tyres on it. My Espace Quadra has all that, and it's running great. Last year I drove it through half of Europe, from Finland through Sweden and Denmark to the UK, and from there via Germany, Poland and the Baltic States to Russia, and then back to Finland again.

Back to the Murena: after a big motor repair, I'm trying to get the Murena back on the road, but the exhaust gas test values are too high, so the first question I would ask in the forum here is what typical reasons for this are known. The cylinder head and gasket are new, the solex double carburators fully refurbished, the vaccuum system for the headlights tested so no air is leaking out after the carburators. What else could it be?

Another thing I'm interested in is if there are Matra meetings in the Nordic countries sometimes? I know there must be one guy owning a Murena even higher up North, in Bodo Norway.

We had two years ago a mini-meeting of Espace-friends (the German Forum) in Rovaniemi at the Arctic Circle.
Then I thought it would be fun to try to get some people to North Cape for a Matra meeting. Did anybody ever do something like this?

When I registered my cars in Finland, the authorities told me that these two are the only such cars in the country. If any of you know of other Murena or Espace j11 owners in Finland, let me know. I'd be happy to link up with them.

Florian
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roy4matra
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« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2013, 11:33:23 am »

Ciao everybody,

great forum, which helped me already to locate several problems in my Murena.

Here's my short intro:

I bought my Murena 2.2 four years ago in Switzerland and drove it up to Rovaniemi, Finland, at the Arctic Circle, where I live. There I have also a rare Matra-Renault Espace j116 Quadra, which I use as main car. The Murena is my hobby for the warmer half of the year. So I haven't installed an engine warmer, for example, nor mount winter tyres on it. My Espace Quadra has all that, and it's running great. Last year I drove it through half of Europe, from Finland through Sweden and Denmark to the UK, and from there via Germany, Poland and the Baltic States to Russia, and then back to Finland again.

Back to the Murena: after a big motor repair, I'm trying to get the Murena back on the road, but the exhaust gas test values are too high, so the first question I would ask in the forum here is what typical reasons for this are known.

Hello Florian,

I too have a Murena 2.2 (1982) and an Espace Quadra (1990).  My Espace is a special from near the end of the production of the Series 1 Phase 2.  It is called a Baccara and has full Connelly leather, air conditioning and ABS brakes, and was a one owner from new before I bought it a few years ago.  It is in very good condition as I have repaired all the electrical items and some mechanical things that needed bringing back to original.  I am a vehicle technician and do all my own work.  The body, paint and trim were good having been looked after well by the original owner.  I have two sets of wheels with winter tyres on one set, and it is brilliant especially in snow.  I have had my Murena 2.2 from new, so I know it well.

Now to your problem of exhaust emissions.

First I need to see the figures you have please.  You say they are too high, but too high compared to what?  Since you say these are rare cars in your country, do they have the correct values for these cars?  You cannot run an old car to new car values.  You would damage the engine.  Don't forget these are carburettor engines so cannot run on the extremely lean figures that modern cars with fuel injection can.  Do you have a hand book or a copy of the workshop manual?  The manufacturer figures were quoted in those.

Quote
The cylinder head and gasket are new, the solex double carburators fully refurbished, the vaccuum system for the headlights tested so no air is leaking out after the carburators. What else could it be?

If the headlamp system is air tight as it should be, then the simple test is to switch the engine off, and leave the car for at least 24 hours (but even a few days should be fine) and then without starting the engine, switch the headlamps on and raise the lights - they should still operate at least once or twice - mine can do this after a week in the garage.

The other things I need to know, are what carb(s)s. are fitted - and specifications please especially if they are not standard, and what is your exhaust?  The standard 2.2 had a Solex 34 CICF twin venturi progressive down-draught carb. on water heated manifold, and the Prep 142 or 'S' had twin Solex 40 ADDHE twin side draught carbs. on non-heated manifold.  If the car is a genuine 'S' it should have a valve under the carbs. but the Prep 142 did not.  The exhaust had one outlet pipe on the left.  Some after market exhausts have two tail pipes, one on each side.  If you have one of these, and you take a reading on the right side, they are often incorrect and different to the one on the left.

Once I have these details I might be able to offer some advice.

Roy
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 12:28:36 pm by roy4matra » Logged

Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2013, 01:50:10 pm »

Hi Florian

Welcome to the forum, and congratulations on your Murena. Good to hear about your espace Smiley

It could certainly be interesting to do a Matra meeting in Nordic Cape. I'm certain it has never been done before, so it would be the world's first Smiley

We're having a summer meeting in Denmark on September 7th to 9th. It will be on Funen this year, but the deails aren't official yet Wink We regularly have visitors from both Norway, Sweden and Germany, and it would be great to see you in either the Espace or the Murena Smiley

Cheers and good luck with the carburettor. You're in good hands with Roy offering his assistance - he is very knowledgeable Smiley

Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Matra_Hans
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« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2013, 07:46:44 pm »

Welcome to the forum.
It is interesting to know that we have MATRAs so close to the North Pole.
A trip to Rovaniem will be interesting but I just checked the distance and it will be a drive of close to 2000 km each way, so it will definitely not be a weekend trip but more like a summer vacation.
I have an Espace III and a Murena 2.2 plus some MATRA projects myself.
Hans
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floj116polar
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« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2013, 01:05:09 pm »

Hi Matraciens,

thank you for your replies.

Roy, yes, mine is the S 142 prep with twin Solex 40 ADDHE carburators, and one exhaust pipe on the left side, which has got the larger end, I think it's a devil.
The values for the gases are around 1500 with an upper limit that should be 1000 as the inspection says, and the other value is 8.5-9 with the upper allowable limit being 4. The engine isn't quite running round enough constantly. WHen it does, the values are ok. When it doesn't they go too high.
Interesting what you say with the norms for the values. I wonder, because 2008-11 the car passed the exhaust test every time.

For the headlight mechanism, mine definitely doesn't keep tight AS long as yours. 3-4 hours after turning off the engine, the lights go up around 1.5 times, 12 hours after only about 1 time.
I have checked all the hoses, the vacuum "football egg" in the back, the white valve, the hoses under the car, and also changed the vacuum pump in the front.
But even if there would be a leak, the values actually don't change e.g. when I close the whole system off (at the end of the hose between the triangular adapter coming from the engine and the white valve.I had the car be inspected without the vacuum system connected and the values were still too high.

How do you do these exhaust inspections in the UK or Denmark? What are the accepted values there?
The engine had also definitely some ignition problems, so I ordered new cables and spark plugs. In the old ones I could see that three of whem were black and dry, while the fourth was black and wet. Those spark plugs were still from when the broken head gasket was in the engine. Maybe with the new ones it won't have the little explosions in the exhausts come to an end.

Wow Roy, your Quadra sounds really nice. What a rare car! Mine is also a I phase 2 1990, but without leather or ABS. The condition inside is ok, but the Paint comes off, so I want to re-paint it at some point.

I need to check if I can come to the meeting in Denmark. Would be nice to meet some of you there with the Murena.

Cheers

Florian
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northmurena
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« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2013, 08:28:04 pm »

Hi Florian and welcome to the forum,

i just went the 2000 km-way to Rovaniemi but didn┤t saw your Matras there. Okay, was only on Google Earth ;-) So, perhaps they showed me an old picture ;-)

To get your Murena run: Before you can adjust the carbs everything around the ignition has to work. Means: sparks, plugs, cable, distributor, cap, rotor, point of ignition. Also it is important that your car has a good minus-contact to the chassis. There are several points where the car has these contact-points. Our cars are old, so these points have often corrossion.

Your vacuum-system has to be close of course. ( On my Murena i just throwed out all the vacuum-shit. The way from the engine to the front ist just too long in my opinion. There will be everytime the risk of leaking. I installed an electrical vacuum-pump for break-master and lights. Since i did this, the engine is running much smoother. )

When ignition and vacuum works, you can go to the carbs. You wrote, that the carbs are refurbished. You need to be sure, that they are completed correctly after refurbishing and all inside parts are undamaged, working and adjusted correctly.  Also all rubber-parts should be in good condition. The distance between carbs and inlet-manifold should also be adjusted correctly.

When you are sure, that all these is okay, you need to synchronise the two carbs to each other and after you did this you can adjust the gasoline/air-mix and idle. But before i write this down with all details it would be easier to send you these part of the workshop-manual by e-mail. But the manual is in german :-( Would this help you HuhHuh

About your exhaust: a larger end doesn┤t mean to be a Devil. Sorry for disappointing you ;-). A Devil has one or two ends on each side and it has two mufflers. You can see a picture here: http://simon-auto.de/matra/deutsch/mur_tuning.htm

Hilsen
Kai
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floj116polar
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« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2013, 01:00:21 pm »

Hi,
thanks for the reply. My Murena is in the garage, so you can't see it on google earthOne the one hand yes, I agree with the vacuum system. On the other hand, it would be cool to preserve the original state, in terms of automotive heritage. Next year the Murena gets the oldtimer-plates.
Yes, I checked plugs, ignition cables today.
The carbs were synchronised when the old cables and spark plugs were there. Does that mean it has to be done again? I didn't do that synchronising myself of course, as I am not an expert in this whatsoever.
I would assume though that with a small leak of the vacuum system like I have it, the values of the exhaust gas wouldn't go that crazy, wouldn't they?
German manual is not a problem, I was born in Germany
Happy driving
Florian
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northmurena
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« Reply #7 on: May 20, 2013, 01:33:43 pm »

Hi Florian,
"born in Germany"..... i could bet you moved to Finland in cause it was too cold in Germany :-)

I will send you the manual later today by e-mail. Hope you have an e-mail-account with enough space ;-)

Hilsen
Kai
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floj116polar
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« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2013, 11:44:31 pm »

Hurrah,

it worked. My Murena passed the exhaust gas test today, and then immediately the "katsastus" (that's the equivalent of the MOT in the UK).
Thanks a lot to Kai and Roy for their advice and guidance, and the papers sent. These were so useful!
We got the values down through adjusting the solex double carburators.
Nonetheless, my headlight vacuum system is not as tight as Roy's, so I need to check this again. I thought I had checked everything I can in the engine compartment. Need to see if it's leaking maybe from the valve behind the front left headlight. I think there was a forum thread somewhere how to check its function...
Also, it is still sometimes as if one cylinder of the engine is not working how it should, especially in idle (around 900 rpm). Then when I accelerate, the engine "kicks me in the a..." literally and is working normally. Does anybody know where this comes from?
But even with these little flaws - at least I can drive it! I've been waiting for this moment for 2 years! Sunday I drive 600 km northwest to Tromso. It's not quite North Cape yet, but pretty far north though...

Florian
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northmurena
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« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2013, 12:37:55 am »

Congratulations. You see, it could be so easy  Wink

If it is cylinder 1 or 4 what is not working, the vacuum could be the problem. The pipes are going from the engine-room under the car to the front, where brake-master and the front-lights are placed. You will need to check the whole way and all connections.

Or if you - maybe - could just forget that everything have to be like the manufacter made it, change the engine-vacuum to an electrical. Here can you see, how it could look like: http://matraforum.de/forum/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=4924
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 12:45:23 am by northmurena » Logged
roy4matra
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« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2013, 07:54:02 pm »

Hi Matraciens,

thank you for your replies.

Roy, yes, mine is the S 142 prep with twin Solex 40 ADDHE carburators, and one exhaust pipe on the left side, which has got the larger end, I think it's a devil.
The values for the gases are around 1500 with an upper limit that should be 1000 as the inspection says, and the other value is 8.5-9 with the upper allowable limit being 4.

First Florian, I should apologise for not replying sooner.  I don't connect to the forum that often anyway, (and it is better to contact me directly by email)  but this time I also had some personal health and family problems so had forgotten to look back in until now.  I'm glad to see you've resolved the emissions and got the pass, and the car on the road.  For completeness I will answer some things though.

Our emission figure limits here in the UK are: 3.5% CO and 1200 ppm HC  (similar to your 4% and 1000 ppm)
Your original figures of 8.5 - 9.0 and 1500 are much too high and show that the car was running much too rich.  That is also why you get the backfire in the exhaust.  (Too lean and you will get a backfire through the carbs. too rich and the backfire is in the exhaust)

You also said that all plugs were dirty but one was also wet.  If the wetness was fuel that was either the carb. leaking or very badly adjusted too rich.  If the wetness was oil, then you could have oil getting in to that cylinder which might need checking.  Either way a wet plug will often misfire, so that can be the cause of uneven running.

Since you say your carbs. had been refurbished, it is also possible something wasn't quite right, something not adjusted correctly, or something faulty - yes even new parts can be faulty.  When plugs are fouled, it can be difficult to tell if the fault is just because they are fouled or there are other problems, so I often briefly fit a new set simply to check how it runs on them.  (I always use NGK BP6ES)  A new set will show up any differences quickly too - after only running them for say 10 minutes take them out and inspect.  I recently did this on an old 911 and five came out still clean but one was very black and points immediately to that cylinder having the fault - possibly a leaky injector.


Quote
For the headlight mechanism, mine definitely doesn't keep tight AS long as yours. 3-4 hours after turning off the engine, the lights go up around 1.5 times, 12 hours after only about 1 time.
I have checked all the hoses, the vacuum "football egg" in the back, the white valve, the hoses under the car, and also changed the vacuum pump in the front.

I assume you mean the double acting servo under the left front.  There is no vacuum pump on the car.

Yes the white vacuum valve in the front often leaks slightly from it's exhaust port (opposite end to the solenoid).

Quote
But even if there would be a leak, the values actually don't change e.g. when I close the whole system off (at the end of the hose between the triangular adapter coming from the engine and the white valve.I had the car be inspected without the vacuum system connected and the values were still too high.

Quite right.  In fact any leak on the vacuum side would weaken the mixture and since yours was so rich, a leak could have helped! :-)


Quote
Wow Roy, your Quadra sounds really nice. What a rare car! Mine is also a I phase 2 1990, but without leather or ABS. The condition inside is ok, but the Paint comes off, so I want to re-paint it at some point.

My previous Espace Quadra had the peeling lacquer problem that is common on these cars.  This one happens to be still very good fortunately.  (there is a photo on my website if you wish to see it)

Roy
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 06:28:50 pm by roy4matra » Logged

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