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Author Topic: V-ribbed idler/deflection pulley, Accessories (auxillary drive) belt - F4R 16V ?  (Read 4525 times)
Gunnar
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Posts: 7


« on: June 10, 2014, 08:44:02 am »

Hi.
Have anyone here had a ribbed idler (deflection) pulley fitted on the F4R engine?
Our car have turned out to have a history of derailing the drivbelt. Last time (under our ownership) it wedged in under  the timing belt, and after one year a lawyer are stil trying to  make the garage take the full responsibility.
I'm trying to find out what the garage could have done to avoid the returning problem. And how to avoid it in the future.
A few threads on the german www.espace-freunde.net points out that changeing the flat deflection pulley for an ribbed one, can possible avoid further belt failures.
http://www.espace-freunde.net/forum/index.php/m/314014/?srch=audi+v6#msg_num_2
http://www.espace-freunde.net/forum/index.php/m/264263/?srch=audi+v6#msg_num_6
http://www.espace-freunde.net/forum/index.php/m/262155/?srch=audi+v6#msg_262155
Have anyone here done or heard about that modification elsewhere?

best regards, Gunnar.

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2001 Grand Espace 16v The Race. (At the moment not running :-( )
2006 Citroen C5 breake 1,6hdi.
WessexElectricNutter
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Posts: 72


« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2014, 11:04:17 am »

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Timing-Belt-Idler-Pulley-Renault-Opel-Vauxhall-21759-/111053994465?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&fits=Car+Make%3ARenault%7CCars+Type%3A2.0%7CModel%3AEspace&hash=item19db5579e1

Like that? If so, where are you based? I might be able to source one off a scrap vehicle (local scrapyard has an F4R engined espace - and it depends if it is still there).
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Renault Espace III 2.2DCi Privilege (2001)
Renault Espace III 3.0 V6 Privilege (2001)
Gunnar
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Posts: 7


« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2014, 02:14:52 pm »

Thanx but I prefer to get a brand new one Auxiliary drive belt failure is very likely to damage also the timeingbelt on the F4R engine.
I also guess the Audi pulley (as linked to in that forum) looks to be even more secure with deeper  grooves and sidewalls http://www.mister-auto.de/de/umlenk-fuhrungsrolle-keilrippenriemen/ina-532-0160-10_g312_a204532!0160!10.html?utm_source=daparto&utm_medium=comparator&utm_campaign=premium_daparto&kbanr=0588729

Do anyone have any picture of an grooved deflection pulley  on a F4R engine?
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2001 Grand Espace 16v The Race. (At the moment not running :-( )
2006 Citroen C5 breake 1,6hdi.
BrianM
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Posts: 321


« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2014, 10:48:54 am »

The one on ebay is what is fitted as standard & you can see it is not smooth but with ridges. If yours has a habit of throwing the belt then it could be a bearing siezing up, poss in the alternator, or the crank pully balance rubber failing. Even when these are fitted out of line they normally just wear the edge of the belt. So I would change the crank pully & alternator along with a full belt kit.
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Gunnar
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« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2014, 03:54:06 pm »

Maybe the on on ebay you are referring to, are fitted as standard on newer F4R engines. The one on mine and on photos i have seen in several forum-posts sure have been smooth.
# different independent garages have tried to find the cause of failure with no luck.
They all said all rollers/pulleys and drive-wheels are running smooth and aligned straight. The decoupler  on the dynamo also felt ok and free in reverse direction.

The problem we have been fighting against for almost 1year  is that the garage that have mounted the belts that have been thrown of into the timing-belt refuse to take full responsibility. And they refuse to cover more then 50% of the costs that no one know what it will end at before the engine can be opened up. WHICH no one dare to do before its decided (by court it seems) who have the responsibility for the failure....
Its beyond my understanding how someon could be just 50% responsible for a reparation that breaks again after just 10months.  (Or me or someone else being 50% responsible for the failure)
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2001 Grand Espace 16v The Race. (At the moment not running :-( )
2006 Citroen C5 breake 1,6hdi.
BrianM
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Posts: 321


« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2014, 05:00:02 pm »

I defense of the garage, sitting on the 'sidelines' as you say 'the car has a history of throwing off the belts' If I were the magistrate I would not find for you because of this history. The garage have done the same as anyone else. If they have used second hand parts or left a bolt loose then that is a different matter. Maybe you should be taking the belt manufactures to court. In the past, I put in a clutch that juddered, the supplier would only give me a new clutch, they would not pay me for my time to replace it! Sounds like your on a sticky wicket. Like I say all you can do is replace the drivetrain parts. Of course it could also be the aircon pump siezing. I wish you all the best with this.
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Gunnar
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Posts: 7


« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2014, 06:00:38 pm »

To defend the garage you need to know the whole story.
The garage have mounted the belt(s) 3 times on this car.
One of the main reasons I bought this car was the fact that the belts were renewed just 10months earlier. And that last receipt from the garage had the information written on it that the car had been in because of the belt had come of and that they took the job to find out the cause and renew the belt.
It said nothing about the fact that the could not find any cause of failure. Or that they could not guarantee any expected lifetime of the belt (normally 5years)
It did not say anything about any suggested after-control (which they afterwards have stated the would have done around 6months after, if the car had not gone to another garage for oil change)

The F4R have multiple possibility to put the belt on wrong way around the pulleys ->
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=no&sl=de&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.espace-freunde.net%2Fforum%2Findex.php%2Fm%2F312522%2F%3Fsrch%3DRillen&sandbox=1

Unfortunately that is impossible to prove afterwards. But still its a very likely cause of failure in this case.

The garage have claimed they are aware about the possibility of mounting the belt on the wrong grooves on the 6-groove pulleys. But they have not mentioned anything about the possibility's of faulty routing.. Suspicious..

Anyway - My opinion is that a garage have full responsibility for a job they have done as long as they have not stated that they can not guarantee an expected lifetime of the parts they have fitted.
And because of that its not my job to prove any cause of failure.
Am I wrong about this??
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2001 Grand Espace 16v The Race. (At the moment not running :-( )
2006 Citroen C5 breake 1,6hdi.
BrianM
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Posts: 321


« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2014, 12:00:30 am »

So you were aware the car had a history of  the problem when you bought it? Had you assumed that they had repaired the car & rectified any fault. Or were you not made aware of this found the information in the service history after purchase.
I fitted a cambelt just a few weeks ago, I did not refer to any diagrams to do this. It took me some time work out which way the belt went around all the pulleys. There was only one way it would fit at all. I dont think you could do it another way it just would not fit, or you would be stretching too much to get it to fit.
It is a shame you were not offered to pay for an extended warranty.
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Gunnar
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Posts: 7


« Reply #8 on: June 16, 2014, 11:51:25 am »

I only know about the last repair and the information about it on the receipt. As mentioned one of the things that made me chose this car was that it got 10months old/fresh belts. And that the receipt said they had taken on the job to find the cause. And when there was no further information about it i assumed they had managed to find the cause and solved the problem.

I have learned from this thread http://www.espace-freunde.net/forum/index.php/m/312522/?srch=Rillen that there is 2 possible ways to rout the belt around.
Are you sure your belt are going the right way around. Iwould guess it can be easy to think the belt should go against flat upside against the flat deflection pulley

What about the extended warranty? Why would I need that when the belt only lasted 10months.
Here in Norway 2yers is the norm for claims against repairs that dont hold up as expexted.
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2001 Grand Espace 16v The Race. (At the moment not running :-( )
2006 Citroen C5 breake 1,6hdi.
BrianM
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Posts: 321


« Reply #9 on: June 16, 2014, 11:57:16 pm »

So I checked the route of my belt & it was wrong. It was the right side to the ribbed roller however. I found that I had to excert a lot of force on the tensioner to get it back far enough to get the belt on. I did struggle with it. That is why I did not fit it that way before, because of the amount of force of the tensioner on the belt. But if that is what renault design then who am I to argue. So maybe that is why others get it wrong, the tensioner is very tight/ hard to pull back to get the belt in place. This means the belt is not as tight as it should be.  May be you should have someone send in another car, with the same engine of course, to have a belt fitted & see how it is fitted. Maybe they dont have the renault files & use 'Autodata' maybe there file is incorrect.
Here in the UK a used car would come with an independant warranty from an insurance company paid for by the garage, which can be continued/ extended. Obviously it would be covered for a period by the garage according to trading standards.
I do understand that cars are expensive in Norway due to taxes. Over here the car is worth a maximum of £1500 I can get them from £250 that need a little work. As I said in another thread I just picked up a mk.4 for £440.
I hope you get it sorted.
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BrianM
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Posts: 321


« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2014, 01:13:19 pm »

I just changed an alternator on one of these. I had to go get a second hand one as the new one was delayed in the post & the car was needed for the weekend. I got one from a newer megane/scenic & I notice that they all had a slightly larger pully with a large mass added to it. So the pully has a large mass of circular metal added between the pully & the body of the alternator. I guess this helps even out the drag on the drive belt & maybe this is your solution?

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Gunnar
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Posts: 7


« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2014, 02:22:48 pm »

Interesting and a bit odd.  >:(I have scanned the web  to find out what the difference is with that increased diameter edge.
Looks like its just another construction of OAD http://m.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_nkw=+renault+overrunning+alternator+pulley+2%2C0&isNewKw=1&_sop=12&_pgn=1&epp=24&itemId=&fads=1&mfs=GOCLK&acimp=0&sqp=renault+overrunning+alternator+pulley+2%2C0&trksid=p2053742.m2428.l1313.TR0.TRC0.Xrenault+overrunning+alternator+pulley+2%2C0
As far as I know my F4R engine are not fitted with an overrunning pulley (with an torsionspring dampeninghttp://www.denlorstools.com/autoblog/2011/01/overrunning-alternator-decoupler-clutch-type-alternator/ )
Do anyone here know from what year OAD is standard on F4R?
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2001 Grand Espace 16v The Race. (At the moment not running :-( )
2006 Citroen C5 breake 1,6hdi.
BrianM
Sr. Member
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Posts: 321


« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2014, 11:58:49 pm »

I see the clutch pully fitted to the 1.9 diesel engines in the scenic & trafic van. I have not seen this heavy pully on any espace. At the breakers yard I could see they were on scenic/megane face lift cars.
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BrianM
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Posts: 321


« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2014, 12:05:24 am »

I also see that Renault do not recommend that a belt is re-used if removed. They say to fit a new belt.
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Gunnar
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Posts: 7


« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2014, 12:44:43 pm »

Update...
We are now waiting for a professional damage surveyor to evaluate traces of polishing that can only be from the Auxiliary belt being mounted the wrong way around / under the Water Pump. Possibly combined with wrong routing between tensioner and Alternator.
Hard lesson learned! -> Routing of Auxiliarybelt should ALWAYS be controled after belt being changed , or if looking at a car to buy...  Angry
Further on the issue here:
http://www.espace-freunde.net/forum/index.php/m/332368/#msg_332368
http://www.espace-freunde.net/forum/index.php/m/332368/#msg_332368

I will appreciate info on other engines that also have suffered from this depressing mistake.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2014, 12:50:27 pm by Gunnar » Logged

2001 Grand Espace 16v The Race. (At the moment not running :-( )
2006 Citroen C5 breake 1,6hdi.
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