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Author Topic: Serious challenges - The sequel  (Read 3673 times)
Jon Weywadt
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« on: September 09, 2015, 04:20:11 pm »

So after a great weekend and the Danish summer meet, where my Murena ran well, I drove about 40 km to my friend Bert, who needed help with a project.
About 1 km before I got there the alternator belt started squealing when starting from an intersection. Upon arrival a cloud of steam rose out the right side engine vent. and the temp gauge was nearly at 100. Shocked
I assumed the water pump had got stuck (because it has been noisy), but it turned out that it had started leaking. Adding water just runs out in a steady stream along the pump axle. Sad
So the car is now home, after a ride on an auto transporter, and my wallet is 900 DKK lighter. Angry
The challenge is now to renovate the water pump, that Jesper took off his car, when he got my spare, and replace the leaking one.
Crossing my fingers that the head did not crack again. Shocked
Tell me again why we like Matra Murena cars?  Huh
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Oetker
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« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2015, 07:13:31 pm »

Yep, you lean back in the easy chair because you think you finaly ready with the car, and then the car suprise you.
They keep you busy.
I have 2, and sometimes  it almost look like work Grin
Didn't you replace the pump when you had the engine appart?

Herman
« Last Edit: September 09, 2015, 07:17:05 pm by Oetker » Logged

I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
Jon Weywadt
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« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2015, 10:36:58 pm »

Yep, you lean back in the easy chair because you think you finaly ready with the car, and then the car suprise you.
They keep you busy.
I have 2, and sometimes  it almost look like work Grin
Didn't you replace the pump when you had the engine appart?

Herman

I didn't have the engine block out, so the water pump stayed in place. I never had any problems with it before, so it must be because it sat for several months without water that it started acting up. Probably rust on the shaft.

I will rebuild the old one if possible, or take the impeller out and install an electric pump instead.
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Jon Weywadt
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« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2015, 12:57:51 pm »

I will rebuild the old one if possible,
---
On advice from Jesper, I bought a water pump from www.mister-auto.dk. It is a DOLZ T116 (295.00 DKK) and it is the same one he used to renovate the spare pump he got from me. Now we will use it to renovate his old pump.

Pictures to follow.
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Oetker
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« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2015, 02:04:32 pm »

If my info is right Dolz T116 has a ceramic seal.
Therefore your old pump needs the iron impeller.
If it is alu then it doesn't work and you need a pump with rubber seal.

Herman
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I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
Jon Weywadt
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Posts: 962



« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2015, 07:52:52 pm »

If my info is right Dolz T116 has a ceramic seal.
Therefore your old pump needs the iron impeller.
If it is alu then it doesn't work and you need a pump with rubber seal.

Herman
Not sure I understand what the problem is???
We will be using the impeller from my old pump, which I assume is iron. Only the shaft, bearings, and shaft from the new pump will be used. Jesper did mention the need for sealer to be applied somewhere.
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« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2015, 08:30:34 pm »

Iron and alu impeller from 2.2 pumps



If you have a alu impeller then you only can revive a pump by using a pump with a rubber seal.
The Dolz pump T116 has a iron impeller that work with a ceramic seal so your old pump needs the iron impeller to.

Herman
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I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
Jon Weywadt
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« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2015, 04:02:04 pm »

--
The Dolz pump T116 has a iron impeller that work with a ceramic seal so your old pump needs the iron impeller to.

Herman

Thanks Herman.
I will find out how Jesper fixed his, because he used the Dolz pump.
/Jon
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Jon Weywadt
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« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2015, 06:56:57 pm »

The other day I left the Dolz pump with Jesper. He took it to work and took it apart. He also took his old pump apart and then installed the shaft and bearings from the Dolz in his old housing. To make it work he had to take 5 mm off the tip of the impeller from his old pump (cast iron) so it would not smash the ceramic seal on the shaft. Finally he had to cut off the excess shaft sticking out of the belt pulley.
Today he helped me install it in my Murena. I had prepped the job by raising the car on jack stands and dismounting the upper motor mount. As Jesper had done, we put a jack under the engine and took the bolt out of the left motor mount. Then we lowered the left side of the engine about 10 cm. That gave room to work on the bolts on the water pump on the right side. After clearing the old gasket and applying a red silicon sealer to the 'new' pump we installed it with no problems. Actually it was Jesper who did most of the work because of my arthritis fingers.
We added about 6 liters of coolant and sucked out the air in the system with a vacuum cleaner and a jar with two small hoses sticking through the lid. First from the small hose that runs to the top of the radiator and finally from the vent hole in the hose by the thermostat.
A quick run of about 10 Km and the temp stayed 'normal', which is 82 centigrade on my thermostat. Smiley
So back on the road. At the same time I got the left front flasher lighting again. (Corroded socket)
Now if I can just get the sprinkler working again. Sad
« Last Edit: October 04, 2015, 10:24:05 pm by Jon Weywadt » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2015, 05:26:05 pm »

Congratulations on a job well done.
It is  a bit difficult because of little room but it's possible.

retz Herman
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I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
Jon Weywadt
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« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2016, 12:27:50 pm »

Jesper and I have been using the Dolz T116 pumps for parts to renovate the original T158 pumps. Taking them apart and only using the shaft, bearings and seals, Jesper has renovated the T158. He uses the original cast iron impeller but have to mill off a few millimetres to allow room for the new, different seals from the T116. Also the pulley end of the shaft has to be cut about a centimeter shorter.
Not a difficult project and while I thought that my rebuilt pump had failed, it looks like the problem was the old hose leaking around the top of the pump.
Still looking for a replacement. May end up using two 90 degree pieces and a fitting to join them. That is, if there is room for that. It was a tight squeeze getting the hose off, disassembling only the thermostat housing, in order to get a pair of polygraph pliers on the spring-loaded hose clip.
  
Well after replacing the hose, only to discover that water still leaked out, Jesper and I removed the pump.
It looked like it was ok and we tried air pressure from the pulley end and it was tight.
However using a syringe with a plastic tube inserted into the bearing vent hole under the pump, we forced water into the housing between the bearings only to discover that it leaked through the inner seal. Closer inspection revealed that the collar around the seal had cracked, thus allowing water to seep past and out the vent hole.  Angry

Another Dolz 116 will now be sacrificed to rebuild the pump. We are not using the original pump that failed first.

Taking it apart we found that the bearing and balls just rattled out. The shaft had a grove worn where the bearing had been. It must have partially failed at some time in the past, but because the vent hole was completely clogged, water didn't leak out until the bearings completely failed and water leaked out around the shaft at the pulley end.
The photos show the bad state of the original pump. Shocked (The housing is salvageable though)
The last photo shows the failed Dolz-116 seal from the rebuilt pump. At 2 o'clock you can see a crack in the ceramic ring and cracks in the rubber surrounding it. We do not know if that could have happened during the rebuild, but Jesper went to great k´lengths and custom made tools to fit it this time.

This pump seems to be holding tight. But there still was a leak. It turns out that the small hose from the thermostat housing to the expansion tank is/was leaking. I have tightened the hose clamp hard, and will see if it can be tightened further tomorrow. But for now it seems to be tight. Smiley
« Last Edit: July 29, 2016, 05:44:28 pm by Jon Weywadt » Logged

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roy4matra
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« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2016, 09:42:47 am »

If my info is right Dolz T116 has a ceramic seal.
Therefore your old pump needs the iron impeller.
If it is alu then it doesn't work and you need a pump with rubber seal.

Herman

No that is not right, at least not from the beginning.

Originally the T118 water pump was the water pump for the Chrysler 180/2-litre and 2.2-litre Tagora, and came with a cast metal impeller which rubbed against a carbon seal.  The only pumps I ever saw with a rubber seal were the T116 pumps that were for the Talbot 1.6 (1592cc) engines.

The original Murena water pumps were basically the same as the Chrysler/Talbot pumps for the 180/2-litre/2.2-litre except they had a pulley already pressed on and they were closer to the body as the room in the Murena was limited.  The Murena pump was given the number T158 as it was a T118 fitted but fitted with a pulley.  It still had exactly the same cast steel impeller, and carbon seal.  I used to buy Tagora pumps for the Murena and simply fit the pulley from the old pump to the new one, and cut off the excess shaft sticking out of the pulley!

The Tagora did not use an electric driven fan like the Murena.  Instead it had a large fan fastened on the front of the pump which free wheeled until the radiator switch connected and then it activated a clutch to make the fan drive positively with the pump. (with the longitudinal engine just behind the radiator the water pump mounted fan was right behind the radiator)

The original T118 pumps had a casting height of 78mm and the original Murena pumps were exactly the same.  Later they made the T118 pumps deeper increasing the casting height to 83mm and I didn't understand why, but now I think I know.  The carbon/ceramic seal assembly is 5mm deeper than the original carbon only seal, so by increasing the casting height they could fit a ceramic seal with the original cast steel impeller.  But this meant the bearing/shaft had to be longer too.  These longer bearings probably supported the large Tagora fan better.

Since it appears these bearings with longer shafts became unavailable at some point, Dolz replaced the cast steel impeller with an alloy impeller which had a 5mm shorter boss, and so could still be fitted with the longer carbon/ceramic seals.  However, there was a period when the alloy impeller was wrong (7 curved vane type) so beware of this one as it will not cool at idle unless it has a smaller pulley.

Also they started supplying a pump for the Murena without a pulley, and the part number became T158SP (probably standing for Sans Poulie?) although why they did this is anyone's guess!

Roy
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 09:57:25 am by roy4matra » Logged

Oetker
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« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2016, 08:26:51 am »

Good you dig so deep in the matter.
Not all info is to be found anymore.

I also found pumps from 1.6 with the ceramic seal.
Maybe they can also be used in the 2.2 pumps.
I have very little Matra-time this year because of family matters.
When this is over I will try to fit this one in a 2,2 pump

Herman
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I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
roy4matra
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« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2016, 03:16:30 pm »

Jesper and I have been using the Dolz T116 pumps for parts to renovate the original T158 pumps. Taking them apart and only using the shaft, bearings and seals, Jesper has renovated the T158. He uses the original cast iron impeller but have to mill off a few millimetres to allow room for the new, different seals from the T116. Also the pulley end of the shaft has to be cut about a centimeter shorter.

Yes the T116 pump on the 1.6 engine and the T158 or T118 pump for the 180/2.0-litre/2.2 used basically the same bearing and seals, so I have also bought these to strip and use the parts in a 2.2 housing before now.  However new Dolz T116 are now getting more difficult as they no longer list them.  The early T116 had the shorter carbon only seal like the 2.2 used but later they changed to the carbon/ceramic seal which is the same as the seal in the kit Simon supplies to renovate the 2.2 pump.


Quote
The last photo shows the failed Dolz-116 seal from the rebuilt pump. At 2 o'clock you can see a crack in the ceramic ring ...

Just a small correction here.  The crack is in the carbon seal not the ceramic one.  The ceramic one is on the other piece to the left and would originally be white, but after rubbing against the black carbon seal for some time, it has become grey/black too!  Actually considering how much the shaft must have been moving around with that collapsed bearing, the seal did well to only crack!!

Roy
« Last Edit: September 15, 2016, 03:19:30 pm by roy4matra » Logged

Oetker
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« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2016, 04:09:19 pm »

I can't find info about sizes but these are mounted on a Lada.
Maybe order one to investigate?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Lada-Niva-Laika-Riva-2101-2107-Water-Pump-Oil-Seal-2101-1307013-/322250547226?hash=item4b07a1201a:g:qKwAAOSwdsFUMFuU


« Last Edit: October 16, 2016, 10:32:00 pm by Oetker » Logged

I feel like Jonah, only my fish looks different.
Murena 2.2 Red 1982. Murena 1.6 black on places.
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