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Author Topic: Ignition :(  (Read 17920 times)
Anders Dinsen
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« on: December 04, 2006, 02:10:44 pm »

I think I need to check my coil, distributor, and plugs...

Murena had been standing still for about four days and was running on three cylinders this morning when I started her to take the boys to school, but it cleared and we made it well in time before the bell rang Smiley

BUT THEN hell broke loose. It was a bit reluctant to start when I came out to the car again, but finally made it, but only a short while: 400 meters further it stopped when I let it idle to get out on a crossing road. This time it was even more reluctant to start, but made it, until the first red light. Stop again. Got it back running with a couple of BANGs! when the petrol in the exhaust ignited - did people look? yes! A few hundred meters further down the road the queue for the next red light started... and she stopped Sad

A few minutes, ignitionless cranking, and bangs later she was back running on the choke, and I had to keep her on that all the way in today to get the idle high enough Huh

Did someone mention WD40? Yes, that's a first. Don't know why I don't have a bottle in the car with me, but most likely I won't have any problems going home, now that it has had time to dry out well after the morning drive.

Cheers to all,
Anders  Smiley
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« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2006, 02:41:19 pm »

Sounds like a fun time. Sorry to hear about that.

I take it that it was raining and damp in Denmark this morning? The Murena engine bay shouldn't get very damp as it is sealed on all sides apart from underneath.


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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2006, 03:10:24 pm »

Sounds like a fun time. Sorry to hear about that.

I take it that it was raining and damp in Denmark this morning? The Murena engine bay shouldn't get very damp as it is sealed on all sides apart from underneath.




No you are right, but when the engine starts heating the air in the engine bay, the hot air will condense on the cold surfaces in the bay, and the ignition coil is probably one of those places...

- Anders Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2006, 05:24:14 pm »

My ignition coil died recently and there was no warning, the car just died.
If it was running on 3 pots, then the most likely cause would be the distributor cap or plugs. If the leads were dying, they would break down at higher revs.
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Lennart Sorth
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« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2006, 07:53:06 pm »

My ignition coil died recently
Been there done that.
The coil on my "newly acquired" 1.6 in 1995 was *very* rusty, and the spade connectors were corroded so thin that I was concerned they would brake off. SO, I ordered a brand new coil - which came in the original Talbot box, with the correct partnumber and all.

Fitted the coil, - it looked healthy and good - engine fired in good spirit, and I set off from Reading/UK towards somewhere north of Sheffield.

Made it as far as 20 miles south of Sheffield, where there was ground fog, and the car simply died,  and there was no chance getting any life out of it.

Hours later, I had roadside assistance from no less than Roy Gillard (whom I was intending to meet up with at a MECUK meeting) and before long, the coil was pinpointed as the culprit.

But where does one get a matching coil on a friday evening ??

However, my apparently guardian angel Mick Ward had followed Roy, and from the vast vaults of his Simca-1000 he pulled out a coil, - which worked beautifully!   THANKS MICK!  - AND Roy!

In fact, that coil was still on the engine when I 4 years later had the car converted to the 1.9i

Sometimes brand new spareparts are as much likely to brake down as the old ones, - primarily because they themselvces can be as old as the car, I guess.

Anders: - in the light of my recent Peugeot-106 problem, I assume you have checked the ignition leads and their connection to the distributor ?
(I recently found out my P106 runs MUCH better with all 4 leads connected :-)   )

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Lennart.Sorth@matrasport.dk
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2006, 10:02:31 pm »

Anders: - in the light of my recent Peugeot-106 problem, I assume you have checked the ignition leads and their connection to the distributor ?
(I recently found out my P106 runs MUCH better with all 4 leads connected :-)   )

Naa, not really, it used to work fine, so I guess there wasn't any need... until today. "Wror wror wror BANG wrror wroo BANG wrooorr BANG!" Cheesy

But it *did* run, eventually. Besides, I wasn't kind to Murena: I left her standing still for four days, outside, on the road. Gave it a wash Sunday evening. Fired it up Monday morning. Drove less than 2 kms and then left her for maybe 15 minutes. With humidity somewhere around 80%, a lot of damp can find it's way into a rusty coil, so it isn't strange that that ignition did not work, I think.

Going home was no problem (and my! she's running well on those Pirelli/Conti winter tyres!), though idle was lower than it was last week. I don't understand that!? But we will see.... I didn't manage to fix anything this evening as I am just too tired, so I'll take the J117 tomorrow Smiley

Spare coil (Roy supplied one with the car!) and four new plugs are ready and waiting on my workshop desk, and a new membrane for the accelerator pump which is leaking a bit should be on its way from Simon too, so I might as well wait and do it all at the same time. I'll check the distributor, then. I've got Saturday scheduled for some work in my father-in-law's garage: Getting that coil screwed out and back doesn't look easy on a 2.2, so it's probably better to wait, unless it breaks down completely in the mean time...

- Anders
« Last Edit: December 04, 2006, 10:10:31 pm by Anders Dinsen » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2006, 12:05:56 am »

to me it sounds like a failed sparkplug, lead or distributor.
The carb is quite obviously supplying all the petrolfumes is need to, it is just not ignited everytime. 

Take one thing at a time, - I'd start with the sparkplugs, - then leads (if possible), distributor, and then maybe the coil, since you have one on stock.

However, I don't see the coil as a very likely cause for this behaviour, - a "tired" coil would only fire occationally and certainly not at higher revs. In my experience a failed coil will hardly make any spark at all. But there may be strange ways coils can fail?

/Lennart
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Lennart.Sorth@matrasport.dk
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Will Falconer
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« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2006, 11:35:15 am »

Anders, I think you are running a single Solex carb.

I know you have fuel getting into the engine and it seems like an ignition problem, but imho it could well be the carb.

It just sounds too familiar to what my original 2.2 used to do regularly until I threw away the Solex and fitted a single Weber...and never looked back.
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LarsB
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« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2006, 04:10:17 pm »

Sorry to hear about your troubles.

I sincerly hope you get it fixed asp.

Lars Bj°rdal
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2006, 09:19:40 pm »

Anders, I think you are running a single Solex carb.

I know you have fuel getting into the engine and it seems like an ignition problem, but imho it could well be the carb.

It just sounds too familiar to what my original 2.2 used to do regularly until I threw away the Solex and fitted a single Weber...and never looked back.

You are right, Will, I am running the single Solex 34CIC and they aren't the best.... certainly not compared to a well jetted new Weber. But I sincerely think it's okay and with all the moisture that I can see builds up on the rear window when I treat the car like I did Monday morning, it does'nt take much imagination to get an idea about how it must look around the coil and leads in the otherwise hot engine room.

The unstable idle could also be the ignition, but with this particular cam (Holbay with its 70+ degrees overlap) idle will never be entirely stable ;-) Acceleration at 3000 rpm+ is, however!! Cheesy

Thanks for all the positive thoughts I'm getting... Saturday in good daylight, I'll go through it all and let you know what I find!
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« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2006, 07:04:54 am »

Quote
it does'nt take much imagination to get an idea about how it must look around the coil and leads in the otherwise hot engine room

I refuse to belive that the ignition components are THAT vulnarable in the murena!!
The midengine should be an ADVANTAGE! regarding exposiure to moisture
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2006, 12:05:44 pm »

Quote
it does'nt take much imagination to get an idea about how it must look around the coil and leads in the otherwise hot engine room

I refuse to belive that the ignition components are THAT vulnarable in the murena!!
The midengine should be an ADVANTAGE! regarding exposiure to moisture


The engine room is not ventilated as well as on a front engined car where there's usually ventilation both front, up and down, and sides. This means that hot air from the engine is trapped. Hot air can absorb more water than cold, so while the engine is warming up, the air in the engine room will absorb water from the outside air and contain more water per volume than the cold air outside.

Since the chassis will always be colder than the air in the enigne room, moisture will form on the chassis sides of the engine room as it does on your glasses when you come inside from the cold. But as long as we keep adding heat from the running engine, and move the car forward, the continous airflow around the engine will remove most (all?) of the moisture. But when the car is stopped again, ventilation is effectively blocked except for the small ventilation hole on the right side of the engine room.

The now cooling hot air is trapped and the water absorbed in the air has to be released as the relative humidity gets closer to 100%.

The coil is fitted on the chassis and I think it and the ignition leads will be one of the first places for the water go. Others will be the carburettor, rear window heater relay and all the vacuum pipes. All these things are significantly colder than the engine.

So, while you can refuse as you want to (it's a free country!), I obviously don't agree with you, Krede Cheesy

- Anders

PS: What's happening to your mail address?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2006, 12:12:04 pm by Anders Dinsen » Logged

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Lennart Sorth
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« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2006, 08:11:10 pm »

moisture will form on the chassis sides of the engine room as it does on your glasses
I won't dispute the thermodynamic facts here (since it makes sense), but having said that, I would expect the heat to evaporate any water quickly, and thus disappear by ventilation or through the engine intake.

I have never regarded my Murena enginebay as a particularly wet or cold place.

Lets see what you find in the weekend - poor electrical connections don't need much pressure to brake contact alltogether. Be it through water, corrosion or physical distance.

/Lennart
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« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2006, 06:07:26 am »

Sparks replaced yesterday, the other parts inspected and looks okay, but coil is still rusty and moisture could still enter it under bad conditions. No change noted, but carburettor *is* a problem as it leaks petrol from the accelerator pump fuel line (not the pump itself, but the line where it goes up to the upper part) - at least on the outside, and apparantly also on the inside as it had developed a good bit of run-on. It's the O-ring around the ball valve that isn't sealing, and the gasket apparantly can't take the pressure. I'm going to take it apart again in the weekend.

Will is right that the Webers are better built, but I still beleive that I can get my Solex to run well.



Lets see what you find in the weekend - poor electrical connections don't need much pressure to brake contact alltogether. Be it through water, corrosion or physical distance.

I'll keep you posted, thanks everybody! Smiley

- Anders
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« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2006, 09:11:37 pm »

I promised an update here...  Smiley

As I suspected, the O-ring to seal the fuel line from the accelerator pump was part of my problem. Even after I refitted it a couple of weeks ago, it had broken in two. Maybe because I fitted it incorrectly, and maybe just because the O-ring in the gasket set was too large. I didn't care to measure it then, but it was a very bad fit.

There is an inset in the spigot on ball valve, and the o-ring is supposed to sit there. The picture below is from when I did the carburettor the first time and shows how the old o-ring was deformed - it was obviously too large, as the ones I have fitted. This time we measured the spigot and hole, and apparantly it is designed for an O-ring with 2.5 mm inner and 5 mm outer diameter. The smallest one I could find yesterday was 3/6, but I hope the 1 mm oversize can be compressed to shape without damaging it. In any case, it went in well and seems to be sealing now - but I'm obviously going to keep an eye on this, and if it starts going wrong again, then I'm going to look seriously for a correctly sized o-ring.

But whether this has been the source of my problems remain to be seen, as even if the o-ring is not sealing, fuel should not be able to enter the venturi. As can be seen on the second picture, any fuel spilling out on the inside would go back to the float chamber. I actually only realised that after writing this post (I've edited it now).

So I will still keep an eye on the coil, but didn't care to replace it Saturday as I didn't have my rubber-arm-kit with me Wink
« Last Edit: December 11, 2006, 06:02:10 am by Anders Dinsen » Logged

'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
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