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Author Topic: Problem with Espace 3.0 V6 24V (1999)  (Read 21501 times)
José V. Gavilá
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1999 Espace 3.0 V6 24V


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« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2007, 09:43:28 am »

Hello!

Well, I have finally some news... yesterday I got a call from Renault. They have got back both heads ('from the head specialist') and both are fine. This could be good news if the problem was in the headgaskets  Smiley BUT could be not so good news if problem is inside the engine block  Undecided . They say it is not possible to check that without dismantling engine. Is this true?

I told them to continue with the repair, changing everything which is done at 120.000km (my car has a bit less than 100.000km now). I hope failure was in the headgaskets. If not, I will lose a lot of money for nothing  Cry

Now I expect some days delay (weeks perhaps due to uncommon parts, in words of Renault mechanic)

I will keep you informed!

Regards,

JOSE
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JOSE V. GAVILA
La Canyada (Valencia)
SPAIN

http://jvgavila.com
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2007, 01:17:40 pm »

Good to hear the news, Jose! And I'm also glad to hear that the cylinder heads are okay. I presume they've looked at the gaskets and not found anything? I've still got my fingers crossed for your car!!

Cheers,
Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
José V. Gavilá
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Posts: 96


1999 Espace 3.0 V6 24V


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« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2007, 01:14:20 pm »

Hello!

I have got today finally the long expected news: my Espace is repaired  Smiley!

BUT, and it is a BIG BUT, they have told me price for the repair... 5261,20 Euro !!!

As you could imagine, I have got a big shock... I have not yet the details of what they have done, but I know they have not replaced radiator (and I told them expressely to do that, once the car was dismantled!!!). Perhaps to save money  AngryHuh

I have talked with my contact there in Renault garage (son of the owner) and will talk again later today... but I don't hope for a big discount, if any Sad

I am amazed and really surprised; my estimation was about 3000 Euro...

I will let you know what finally happens.

Regards,

JOSE
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JOSE V. GAVILA
La Canyada (Valencia)
SPAIN

http://jvgavila.com
Lennart Sorth
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« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2007, 08:13:59 pm »

5261,20 Euro !!!

OMG - that's a hard blow! - I'm sorry to hear that.
Hopefully you will be able to cut some sort of deal with them.  What is the market value of the car in Spain ? - 6-7 kEur ? If the bill is more than half of the cars value, then it makes little sense for them to proceed, unless they warn you.

If it is of any comfort, I can tell you that car-taxes in Denmark makes a car like yours worth about 30 kEUR, which makes 5261,20 Euro seem less astronomic.

/Lennart
« Last Edit: March 13, 2007, 08:55:17 pm by Lennart Sorth » Logged

Lennart.Sorth@matrasport.dk
Murena 1983 1.9i silver // Alfa Romeo Giulietta 2.0d 2012 white // Smart 4two cdi 2010 blue //
José V. Gavilá
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Posts: 96


1999 Espace 3.0 V6 24V


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« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2007, 12:07:16 am »

Hi Lennart,

5261,20 Euro !!!

OMG - that's a hard blow! - I'm sorry to hear that.
Hopefully you will be able to cut some sort of deal with them.  What is the market value of the car in Spain ? - 6-7 kEur ? If the bill is more than half of the cars value, then it makes little sense for them to proceed, unless they warn you.

If it is of any comfort, I can tell you that car-taxes in Denmark makes a car like yours worth about 30 kEUR, which makes 5261,20 Euro seem less astronomic.

/Lennart

Well, I guess my car could be still valued here at about 9000 Euro... so, it is really more than half its market price  Angry!. I have talked with them and they will call me tomorrow. But, again, I have not big chances of a substantial reduction  Embarrassed.

What is worse is that they will not assure car is fixed  Shocked , as it could have a block problem. I wonder if this is legal  Huh Huh...

Well, I will fight for this!. More on that tomorrow, I hope.

Regards and thanks for your encouragement!

JOSE
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JOSE V. GAVILA
La Canyada (Valencia)
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Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2007, 02:01:17 pm »

Regards and thanks for your encouragement!

If there's anything we can do, let us know. I'm really sorry to hear this has happened.

About the legality of not making a warranty, I tend to agree with you that one would assume when a craftsman does a job, he has a kind of responsibility for what he's done. On the other hand, technically there could have been a hidden problem in the engine block, one that only very careful inspection could show. Fatigue is quite impossible (or at least very difficult) to predict. Their warranty could only cover the work they have carried out and parts they have fitted, e.g. if they have fitted a defective cam belt.

- Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
José V. Gavilá
Full Member
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Posts: 96


1999 Espace 3.0 V6 24V


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« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2007, 12:55:31 pm »

Well, finally, after some struggle, I have got an slightly better price... about 4750 Euro (i.e. 10% reduction of asked price). Not too much  Sad

I will pickup the Espace tomorrow. Of course, I will check in great detail invoice and will ask why they didn't proceed with all the asked operations (yes, even with that huge amount, some things I asked for have not been done  Cry )

I will let you know what I find!

Regards,

JOSE
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JOSE V. GAVILA
La Canyada (Valencia)
SPAIN

http://jvgavila.com
José V. Gavilá
Full Member
***
Posts: 96


1999 Espace 3.0 V6 24V


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« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2007, 11:47:18 am »

Hello my friends,

Well, today was the dreaded day of getting back the Espace. I say dreaded because, based on my relation so far with the Renault service, I was afraid I won't like what I would get... and, sadly, I was completely right  Cry

They have proudly showed me the engine bay... first sight is the poor expansion tank, STILL FULL OF CRUD. Incredible!. A 4.785 Euro repair bill and they have not cleaned it properly!!!. They say they have cleaned it but there is still crud in the hoses. I asked in a written document I gave them, detailing all I wanted to be done in the car to carefully clean the colling circuit. Their solution???. Order a NEW expansion tank and change it only by parts cost. INCREDIBLE  Angry!!!

I asked also for main radiator replacement. Of course, also NOT DONE. To save some money, just in case engine block is damaged.

I also wrote to change auto box oil. NOT DONE  Angry!!!. Because it is a lifelong fluid and was OK. WHAT  Shocked HuhHuh

In fact, what I wrote was to perform a full 120.000km service, listing operations I thought should be done.

So, please, could somebody let me know what Renault especifies for 120.000km service?. And any other information which shows that auto box oil is NOT lifelong.

Yes, I am really bad about all of this... I am just checking to call Renault Spain and start my complaint.

Regards,

JOSE
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JOSE V. GAVILA
La Canyada (Valencia)
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http://jvgavila.com
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2007, 12:37:00 pm »

Hi José

I asked also for main radiator replacement. Of course, also NOT DONE. To save some money, just in case engine block is damaged.

They do have a point there... but only if they think the block is damaged. I bet it isn't.

Quote
I also wrote to change auto box oil. NOT DONE  Angry!!!. Because it is a lifelong fluid and was OK. WHAT  Shocked HuhHuh

Well they are right that the instructions on the gearbox instruct NOT to change the oil. Even ZF's product page contain this information.

You probably won't risk much by leaving it in... these gearboxes are very robust and don't fail - I have heard of Mercedes Vitos (same box) that have done 400 kkm on a box. Further, it's only possible to drain about 4 litres of the 9 off the box without taking it apart, so it can only be done halfway anyway.

All that said, however, I had gearbox oil changed (the 4 litres) when I got the car and last summer. This summer I'll leave it in, but next it will be done again.

Quote
In fact, what I wrote was to perform a full 120.000km service, listing operations I thought should be done.

So, please, could somebody let me know what Renault especifies for 120.000km service?. And any other information which shows that auto box oil is NOT lifelong.

I can't give you that, since even ZF (the manufacturer) claims it is! The box is called ZF 4HP20 by the way.

Quote
Yes, I am really bad about all of this... I am just checking to call Renault Spain and start my complaint.

I understand you feel shocked by the bill... they should have told you how the meter was ticking as they went along. But really, José - would you have given up halfway through and dumped the car instead?

Also: Have they wasted your money? They have chosen to not do some things which they thought weren't really necessary (e.g. is the radiator close to worn out? with only 120.000 km on the clock in your climate, I wouldn't think so.).

I'm not sure you will gain anything by replacing the expansion bottle - if there's stuff in the system that shouldn't be there and it doesn't go away on a simple cleaning, then I guess you will need to drain and refill with fresh coolant a few times to really clear the problem.

The bill is horrendous. But it *is* a horrible job getting the engine out of that car. It is horrible to work with overall. It's a wonderful machine, and the car is magnificent, but doing any kind of work on it is a pain. My garage replaced the thermostat on my 24v yesterday. It took them several hours! I've got a bill for a normal service check (160 kkm) of a little less than 1000€, and we have still not cleared the airbag problem - a new airbag computer has been ordered and we are waiting for it's arrival. That will add another 4-500€ to the bill. In a year-and-a-half we will be doing the timing belt and plugs. That will require the engine out and will cost me around 3500€. No, it's not an economic car!

I'm not saying you shouldn't be sorry about the money, I'm only saying that it sounds like the garage have tried to do a reasonably good job.

I'll be in Provence the week following next week... if you fancy a long drive, we can have a cup of coffee together! Cheesy

- Anders Cool
« Last Edit: March 22, 2007, 12:41:48 pm by Anders Dinsen » Logged

'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
José V. Gavilá
Full Member
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Posts: 96


1999 Espace 3.0 V6 24V


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« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2007, 04:11:34 pm »

Hello!

There is still something that I forgot to say... they have charged me 565 Euros + VAT for an 'oil radiator'. IF it is a water/oil one, as I suspect, IT COULD BE PROBLEM WAS THERE!. And I told them expressely to check it. They told 'this engine does not use an oil/water cooler'... so, what is that cooler?. ONLY oil???. And, why have they replaced it?

Regards,

JOSE
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JOSE V. GAVILA
La Canyada (Valencia)
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http://jvgavila.com
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2007, 05:16:27 pm »

There is still something that I forgot to say... they have charged me 565 Euros + VAT for an 'oil radiator'. IF it is a water/oil one, as I suspect, IT COULD BE PROBLEM WAS THERE!. And I told them expressely to check it. They told 'this engine does not use an oil/water cooler'... so, what is that cooler?. ONLY oil???. And, why have they replaced it?

Do you have the p/n on the invoice? I might be able to help if you provide that...

Engine oil isn't cooled on these engines, and certainly not with any water-to-oil cooler. Gearbox oil may be, but I don't know.

- Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
José V. Gavilá
Full Member
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Posts: 96


1999 Espace 3.0 V6 24V


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« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2007, 06:33:58 pm »

Hello Anders,

There is still something that I forgot to say... they have charged me 565 Euros + VAT for an 'oil radiator'. IF it is a water/oil one, as I suspect, IT COULD BE PROBLEM WAS THERE!. And I told them expressely to check it. They told 'this engine does not use an oil/water cooler'... so, what is that cooler?. ONLY oil???. And, why have they replaced it?

Do you have the p/n on the invoice? I might be able to help if you provide that...

Engine oil isn't cooled on these engines, and certainly not with any water-to-oil cooler. Gearbox oil may be, but I don't know.

- Anders

Well, what I have is 77 01 045230. Is this OK?. And, yes, it seems to be a gearbox cooler... What I think is that it could be oil/water and, if so...  Angry Angry Angry Angry

Regards,

JOSE
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JOSE V. GAVILA
La Canyada (Valencia)
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http://jvgavila.com
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2007, 08:57:20 pm »

Well, what I have is 77 01 045230. Is this OK?. And, yes, it seems to be a gearbox cooler...

I'll check tomorrow and let you know!
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
José V. Gavilá
Full Member
***
Posts: 96


1999 Espace 3.0 V6 24V


WWW
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2007, 11:27:41 am »

Hello Anders,

Well, what I have is 77 01 045230. Is this OK?. And, yes, it seems to be a gearbox cooler...

I'll check tomorrow and let you know!

Thanks!!!. Please, let me know ASAP as I plan to go this afternoon to the Renault garage...

Regards,

JOSE
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JOSE V. GAVILA
La Canyada (Valencia)
SPAIN

http://jvgavila.com
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2007, 01:36:34 pm »

Hi Jose, I checked with my Renault parts supplier and he confirms that it's an oil to water cooler/heater for the automatic gearbox. Its purpose is to heat the gear oil when it's cold, and cool it when it becomes hot. This ensures the correct viscosity of the oil, which is criticial for the function of the gearbox.

You must ask your garage whether they have replaced this on suspicion only, or whether they positively know that it was the source of problems.

In the latter case, I would suspect there would be coolant in the gearbox oil, which would of course have to be drained and replaced. This would show if just a bit of oil is drained off there.

If the oil cooler is replaced on suspicion only, they should have made the decision to do so with you - not by themselves.

It may be a good idea to replace this part - just to be on the safe side - but it certainly doesn't make sense to do so without checking the gearbox oil before or after. If there is coolant in the gearbox, it can ruin it on a short time.

I hope this helps,
- Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
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