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Author Topic: Gearbox oil leak - JE0K  (Read 12193 times)
Martin Tyas
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Espace, because it's worth it!


« on: October 01, 2007, 09:46:33 pm »

I cannot find any reference in Lennart's Vault to the particular gearbox used in the JE with the G9T engine (2.2dCi) so I'm hoping that someone has some experience.

I've recently been finding small patches of oil on my drive where the Espace has been parked and more often after it having been on a longer trip as you would expect. The oil is clean so I suspected a gearbox rather than an engine oil leak and not red so not power steering fluid.
Over the weekend I had opportunity to use a pit in a friends garage and found the leak to be coming from the seal for the output shaft driving the right hand wheel.
This shaft runs across the back of the engine and through a support bearing mounted to the crankcase then into a U/J connecting it to the right hand front wheel drive shaft.
So, I have two questions.

1) It appears to me that if I separated the U/J and un-bolted the support bearing housing I could withdraw the shaft from the gearbox to replace the seal.... anyone know if that procedure is viable or is there something French hiding in the background to prevent it from being quite so straight forward?

2) After changing the seal what is the procedure for re-filling and checking the transmission oil level? The manual refers the owner to a Renault dealer and there is a warning decal attached to the gearbox stating the same so I guess that it isn't as straight forward as the usual filling until oil runs out of a level plug on the side of the gearbox.

Martin
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1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Anders Dinsen
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« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2007, 12:57:09 pm »

Hi Martin

I searched through my own collection of manuals (german), but couldn't find anything on your particular gearbox. Almost all other, but not yours. I'm afraid there's only one man here who can help but while he is always among the helpfullest of the helpful, he is also a busy guy. Let's await Roy's possible answer to your good question.

On all the other transverse gearboxes, you pull the right hand driveshaft out of the gearbox all including. There is a split going through it that has to be pushed out before the driveshaft can be seperated from the differential. I think your gearbox is of similar design on the left driveshaft - the gearboxes on the petrol cars has the U/J inside the differential housing running in the gearbox oil. There is then a seal in the rubber boot which is bolted on the gearbox. That is often seen to leak, I think - but that's not your problem obviously.

I'm porbably not of any help now, but at least I got a chance to chat Wink

Cheers,
Anders
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'82 Murena 2.2 prep 142
'01 Grand Espace 24v
'08 Smart Fortwo 0,8 cdi
Martin Tyas
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Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2007, 02:56:06 pm »

Thanks for taking the time to take a look through your manuals Anders... its appreciated.

I'm afraid there's only one man here who can help but while he is always among the helpfullest of the helpful, he is also a busy guy.

I know and that's exactly why I didn't impose upon him with a direct e-mail or PM. And if nobody else has had experience of this to answer in the meantime then I am sure that Roy will provide the necessary input when he has time to drop in again... and then we can all benefit from his knowledge for potential future reference.

As a potential alternative source of information I have in the meantime found a supplier of a technicians workshop manual on CD and thought that for 10 euro plus postage it was worth taking the chance and seeing what level of information it provides. It's supposed to be taken from the Renault system and include all models and variants of Espace up to 2003.... we will soon see..... unless the package gets caught in the Royal Mail strike due to start on Thursday lunchtime until next Tuesday.
I'll let you know when I've had opportunity to install it as it may be an additional useful source of technical information.

Enjoyed the chat by the way Anders  Grin .... it's been a while

Martin
« Last Edit: October 03, 2007, 06:41:21 pm by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Martin Tyas
Sr. Member
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Posts: 271


Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2007, 10:32:42 pm »

The CD's arrived this morning Anders, just ahead of the postal strike.
Not a straight forward installation though... starting with disk 3 Roll Eyes and having to uninstall current versions of Quicktime, Acrobat Reader and Java 2 Runtime and go back in time by installing Acrobat Reader 4, an old version of Quicktime and Java version 1.3.1 (after uninstalling v11) in order to get it to run. 
I was going to put it on an old laptop but discovered that my son had returned to university with both of my laptops so I had to chance an installation on my main desktop machine but it ran OK other than for not launching from the shortcut so had to kickstart it from the batch file. BTW, the installation set-up give options for English, French, Spanish and Portugese languages.

Although a lot of messing about the installation is of the Renault Dialogys system that dealers use but obviously without any on-line facility. It has Repair Manuals, Technical Notes, Service Bulletins, Exploded views of assemblies and components and by clicking on the item number on a parts diagram it itemises the part number and gives option to add it to a parts list. If it is added to the parts list it gives a price excluding VAT. I guess that the prices are well out of date but nonetheless give an indication as to how far you are going to get your leg lifted for the parts. But if you have the job done by a dealer you can also check if they have loaded the labour because the time allowed for each task is also detailed within a service time schedule

Anyway, I discovered that the seal which has failed on my gearbox is subject to a technical bulletin and an updated seal... obviously something that they have had problems with before... but the bad news is.... surprise, surprise... you need a special service tool to install the seal to the correct depth in the gearbox casing.

I also found how to check the gearbox oil level.... even the dealers are told to make themselves a gauge from a length of wire rod with dimensions given in the technical note as to where to mark the graduations.
Essentially the correct level should be no higher than 22mm from the lower edge of the filler hole in the side of the gearbox but you have to remove the left hand road wheel and the plastic inner wing panel to gain access to the filler plug before you can use your homemade dipstick.

I also discovered that an intermittent problem I had reported when the car was still in warranty is also a known fault despite the dealer saying that they couldn't find anything wrong. Randomly it has jumped out of 1st gear as you are trying to pull away... which is somewhat disconcerting as it's usually at a busy road junction. I wonder if, having already reported the fault and it being a safety issue, I can get them to resolve that particular problem under warranty. The gearbox has to come out so they could replace the seal at the same time and I'd only have to pay for the seal and 15 minutes labour.... and whilst they've gone that far I could get them to change the clutch for the cost of the parts and with most of the labour already being covered by the gearbox job.... dream on.... wishful thinking if past experiences are anything to go by... but it costs nothing to ask  Wink

Martin
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 05:44:19 pm by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Lennart Sorth
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« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2007, 08:29:59 pm »

The CD's arrived this morning
Excellent.
What was your source of that 10EUR investment ?

/Lennart
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Lennart.Sorth@matrasport.dk
Murena 1983 1.9i silver // Alfa Romeo Giulietta 2.0d 2012 white // Smart 4two cdi 2010 blue //
Martin Tyas
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Espace, because it's worth it!


« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2007, 10:54:58 am »

I found them on e-bay Lennart..... "Renault Espace Workshop Manual on CD" - £7.99 plus £2.99 packing and postage within the UK. The P&P isn't particularly good value for a small piece of bubble wrap, a brown envelope and a second class stamp but then I guess he only pays commission to e-bay on the price of the item and inflates the P&P to make a little bit extra. I saw on some of his feedback where people complained at the price only to have received copied CD's.... what do they expect?.... and what do they think they are buying 3 blank CD's or the information that's on them?

The system data is advised to be up to date to late 2003 so it covers JE models and earlier and I guess therefore that the only things not included are technical bulletins issued after production of the Espace by Matra had ended. I haven't looked at other vehicles in much detail yet but it also appears to cover the rest of the Renault range up to 2003, including Espace IV, Avantime, Laguna, Clio, Vel Satis etc. and even the vans, the Alpine and the Spider

If you take the time to complete the vehicle details on the opening page such as the vehicle fabrication number, the engine & gearbox manufacturing numbers, the build specification such as interior and seat trim codes etc. and also such things as steering wheel location, roof type (standard or sun roof), ABS, equipment level (E1, E2, E3 or E4) etc. etc.  then when you select a particular part you know that it will be for your particular vehicle. All the codes required, except for the engine and gearbox information, are on the vehicle plate. However, even if you just dive in to the system and are selecting variant-specific items you get prompted for the information, such as the trim code or whatever is required to help ensure that you are selecting the correct part for the vehicle.

The technical notes and repair manual pages utilise Acrobat Reader and so can easily be captured as I guess was the case for the PDF based information in your Espace Vault.

I am finding the software a bit unstable.... it quite often freezes.... to the point of needing a three fingered salute (Ctrl, Alt, Del) and as mentioned it won't launch properly from the shortcut so I'm having to kickstart it from the batch file but other than those glitches and having to go back in time to early versions of Java runtime, Quicktime and Acrobat I have already found it worth the hassle.
If I'd had the time I'd have installed VMware and set up a virtual PC to run it on a separate installation... maybe it would have been more stable with a cleaner install without all the other programs that are on my machine. But as a computer techie you can probably get it to run more stable than I have managed so far.
The system overview on CD 3 suggests that Dialogys is multi-platform software but I couldn't get it to run on a Mac.... but that is just as likely to be because of the way that the guy initialized the blank CD's to suit PC's only. It may run on the more recent Intel processor'd Macs that are even more PC friendly... I only tried it on my old G4 Mac.

I'm not one for trying to prevent someone making a few beer vouchers on the side but I have had some very useful information and help from your website and the forum and am therefore more than happy to put back in and contribute whenever I can.... so, instead of ordering them yourself if you'd care to PM me your address I'll burn you a copy of the CD's and drop them in the post when the strike is over. You can then take a look and see what you think.... if nothing else it should be a good source of additional PDF based information for the Vault that everyone can share.

Martin
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 05:46:10 pm by Martin Tyas » Logged

1968 Cessna 182L Skylane
1991 BMW 520i SE Auto
2002 Grand Espace 2.2dCi "The Race"
2003 Astra 1.8i Cabriolet "Edition 100"
2011 Insignia SRi VX-Line Red
2011 Honda VT1300CX Fury
Lennart Sorth
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« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2007, 12:55:05 am »

very interesting indeed.

I "*ahem*loaded" something sounding excactly similar a year or two ago but never managed to make the thing run much - it went away starting java and all sorts of things, and then froze.
"A little flakey" doesn't really begin to describe that  Smiley

It never complained about anything like licences or dongles with secret keys, but simply never worked.  They were "Windows Only" - so I tried them on a few such crippled machines, including a "clean XP" Qemu image (sort of like VMware, but free)  I keep around for other experiments - and neither workd much further than startup.

I only have G4 Macs, but I never tried, as they explicitly said "Windows only"

Thanks a lot for your offer -  Check your PM-box for further info :-)


Regards

Lennart
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Lennart.Sorth@matrasport.dk
Murena 1983 1.9i silver // Alfa Romeo Giulietta 2.0d 2012 white // Smart 4two cdi 2010 blue //
roy4matra
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« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2007, 11:15:25 pm »

The system data is advised to be up to date to late 2003 so it covers JE models and earlier and I guess therefore that the only things not included are technical bulletins issued after production of the Espace by Matra had ended. I haven't looked at other vehicles in much detail yet but it also appears to cover the rest of the Renault range up to 2003, including Espace IV, Avantime, Laguna, Clio, Vel Satis etc. and even the vans, the Alpine and the Spider...

Hi Martin, yes the Dialogys system covers most things as it is the main resource used by the dealer technicians, coupled with the on-line resources which are becoming more and more important.  However, what you have is (an old version of) the Windows PC version of Dialogys and they are all unstable I'm afraid to say, even the latest.  I was continually complaining to Renault about how awful the PC version was, as it is not a patch on the Mac version.  Unfortunately they are moving over to Windows full time now so there won't be a Mac version eventually. :-(  (whoever made that decision should be shot)  I have a Mac version which is now about a year old and still is pretty good although the prices will be out of date.  Also never ever trust the times for jobs, as they are often wrong - ask Lennart about the time to do a clutch master cylinder!

Quote
The technical notes and repair manual pages utilise Acrobat Reader and so can easily be captured as I guess was the case for the PDF based information in your Espace Vault.

On the PC version all the pdf files are in sub-directories and since the Dialogys is not only unstable but has a poor index system that often says 'not available' when actually it is there all along, I always had short cuts directly to the directories so that I could load the relevant pdf file straight into Acrobat.  However, as the file names are not obvious, it does mean you need to know something about the Renault system to know which files to load.  As there are hundreds you cannot simply try them at random.

I was going to answer your original question, but I assume you now know the answer. :-)

Roy
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TonyG
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« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2007, 12:34:01 pm »

Hi. I brought the 3 cd dialogys off ebay a few weeks ago. Followed the instructions to the letter, first time it froze, uninstalled it then reinstalled it again. It has not froze since but still have to open it via the batch file. I am glad i brought it only £3.99 off ebay, it has helped loads with my Espace.  Cheers Tony.
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1992 Espace RXE
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« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2007, 10:32:40 pm »

The 4 disc version Dialogys MPF2 is an improvement, supposedly a version for both Windows and Mac (MPF=Multi PlatForm). Never crashed once and easy fault free installation. Not easy to find though as it is still the old 3 disc trouble version selling off.
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
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roy4matra
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« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2007, 07:54:44 pm »

The 4 disc version Dialogys MPF2 is an improvement, supposedly a version for both Windows and Mac (MPF=Multi PlatForm). Never crashed once and easy fault free installation. Not easy to find though as it is still the old 3 disc trouble version selling off.

MPF is old now! :-)  I have the latest 6 CD version of Dialogys 3000 which is supposed to be for both Windows and Mac OSX 10.4 although so far the Mac version appears faulty after loading.  So it seems they have swopped the reliable Mac only version (which also had more info. and more up to date data available than the Windows version) for the unreliable MPF type program and the Mac version of that is faulty - typical!

The reason the CD's are up to six now is that the amount of data is continually increasing and they have added the Actis solutions too.

Once I get the Mac version to load/run properly it will be interesting to see how much has been included and whether the program has improved again or simply contains more data.

Roy
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renaultbiler
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« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2007, 12:37:57 am »

This 4 disk version is dated mid 2006, one year + old. 4 disk is Renault clean without Dacia or Motrio.
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1980 Alpine A-310 w/GTA 2.5 V6 Turbo
2000 Grand Espace V6 24v Initiale: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2529
2000 Scenic RXi 2.0 16v IDE aut DP0: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=3751
1982 R20TX 2.2
Service Online: www.servicehefte.net/servdata/?cid=qqkX
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