Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera

[andyowl]

Baggy Joe was 42nd out of 54 finishers! Since I am usually around 99th out of 100 I am pleased with the result! The French organisers are very hospitable and we hope to go again next year. The entry list was much shorter than previous years - a sign of the times I regret.

The good news is that I have realised that BJ's 121hp is more than the Murena 2.2's 118 hp. Wow! He feels quick and with a great noise.

We nearly had a disaster when two of the three right hand engine mounting bolts fell out of the timing chain case. I regret that it was probably my fault as I remember throwing the engine mount together in the rush to get to Prescott and I probably forgot to tighten them fully. We raided a friend's spares box and with the help of another friend jacked up the engine and replaced the bolts together with blue Loctite! Needs checking again through the right-hand wheel arch.

Andy

[Spyros]

Baggy Joe was 42nd out of 54 finishers! Since I am usually around 99th out of 100 I am pleased with the result! The French organisers are very hospitable and we hope to go again next year. The entry list was much shorter than previous years -

A pity. You could then have been 42nd out of 100 ! 

[andyowl]

I'd be glad with 84th out of 100!

Andy

[andyowl]

Oh Dear, trouble again!

I blew the head gasket on Baggy Joe two weeks ago at the Harewood Hill Climb in Yorkshire. It failed between #1 and #2 cylinders with evidence that it was thinking about doing the same thing between #3 and #4!

A weak mixture combined with too much welly for too long and a long list of other possible contributory factors need to be addressed!

The general question is this:- Is it better to tune (or supercharge in my case) a 1442 or 1592 engine?

Mick Ward (Simca Club UK) suggests that the extra material between the cylinder walls makes the 1442 version preferable. It seems to make sense to me. Your thoughts would be appreciated.

I am thinking of having the surplus material in the combustion chamber removed to increase the combustion chamber volume and thereby reduce the "decompression plate" thickness and maybe eliminate the need altogether. Removing the sharp edges is also desirable as they tend to overheat first and contribute to the risk of pre-ignition. Comments?

I notice that the engine gasket set for the bottom half of the 1592cc engine is also suitable for a Citroen 1117cc engine. I didn't know there was any similarity to another manufacturer's engines other than Fiat. Is this news to you too or maybe just the wrong gasket set?

Andy

[Spyros]

Aren' every aftermarket compressed engine ending like that, one day or another ?
At least you didn't blew a cylinder and on these engines, exchanging a cylinder head is very easy 

I tend to disagree that starting with a 1440 cc engine would be saffer.
The 1590 cc engine having equidistant cylinders, maintain a reasonable tickness of materials between the bores. On a 1440, sometimes the distance is bigger but not for all cylinders.

If it would be that easy, I'd send you a spare VW KR cylinder head already prepared.
The compression is much lower due to the shape of the chambers. So no decompression plate needed.
But, a lot of work to adapt it (belt vs chain)

I'd think of
- lowering the compression rate by removing material on the piston tops and cylinder chamber
- Going for a solid copper cylinder gasket (thicker)
- adding copper ring around the bores (is there enough thickness ?)

[andyowl]

I'd be very interested in seeing a picture of the VW head! Could that be organised?

I will delay doing any work on the 1592cc engine or preparing my spare 1442cc engine for installation until then.

Getting the head from you: Where are you in Belgium? A Eurostar Brussels day return is only £33 for a pensioner!

Everybody seems to be putting strange engines in old vehicles these days and I have resisted the temptation. But, who knows? A VW head on a Simca engine? Why not?

Liz let me drive her Audi S3 (2 litre) Quattro in the Sprint on Sunday (she was entered too). I was very pleased to find that my times were quite close to the Subaru WRX and Impreza  drivers. Encouraging! I was beginning to wonder if I was just "Past It" and would be better advised to hang up my helmet!


ANDY

[bert1]

Andy the ultimate solution is to "fire ring" your engine. My engine builder does this for all forced induction engines running more boost than stock or where SC is particularly high. My Fiat race engine is close to 14:1 and the standard gasket was never going to deal with that! Upon review of the 3 gaskets I had in stock for the Bagheera build we decided to do the same with that engine as well. Compression measured at a little under 11:1 and the standard gaskets, probably more than suitable at standard 9.5:1 were considered marginal. Locally he also did an Aronde "Rush" engine used in a Formula Junior racer. I hate blown head gaskets!

Ross regularly builds forced induction engines that hold >30psi with no leakage. Once done they seem to last forever - the only ones he has had to replace are where some other catastrophy (dropped valve etc) has damaged the ring itself. The rings have the top surface machined to a "W" shape to bite into the head. The fire rings in the stock gasket are removed and the block machined so the ring is parallel with the inside of the bore.

Of course the head gasket is not your only worry. Bore integrity (as discovered by Cosworth in the early Turbo days - there is a good youtube video of that you might have seen!) and the ability of valves and pistons to deal with pressure are also very important. I wouldn't trust a forced induction motor without forged pistons!

 It was hard enough to source a 1442 block down here in OZ - much less a 1592 - so I can't comment on the 1592, but the 1442 we bored to 78mm and the ultrasonic wall thickness test came up fine - the 1442 was also considered to have good block deck strength and nice short coolant "jackets" - I would think that a bored 1442 block (is this the same as a 1592?) would be fine for your purposes.

I can dig around for some photos to illustrate this post if you would like. I can also put you in touch with Ross directly if you want to discuss fire-ringing and you can't find someone to machine the rings locally (the block I suspect you would need to do in the UK!)

Keep us informed of progress!

I didn't know there was any similarity to another manufacturer's engines other than Fiat.

Andy can you provide some detail on which Fiat engine is similar to the 1294/1442/1592 engines? Apart from a few seals and the lifters I haven't seen much similarity?

[andyowl]

Fiat and Simca connections, from Mick Ward, Simca Club UK..
My "FIMCA" is built from a FIAT 133 which was a SEAT built rehash of the old FIAT 850.  In 1961, when the SIMCA 1000 was introduced, FIAT and SIMCA collaboration was still going strong.  What became the SIMCA 1000 was, in fact, a rejected design study for the original FIAT 850.
  The basic layout of the two cars is very similar, with some parts being identical.  I'm using a SIMCA 1000 gearbox.  I've retained the original FIAT rear suspension and driveshafts which proved to be exactly the right length and use the same sliding block coupling into the Diff as the SIMCA.
   At the August Retro-Rides meeting, I managed 4 runs up Prescott Hill in it.  I'd fitted a set of Honda CBR 600 bike carbs (with the main jets drilled out to 1.5mm) and the 1294cc engine ran superbly on a Rallye 3 cam.
  The Chrysler takeover of SIMCA in the early 60's spelt the end of the FIAT/SIMCA link....It's ironic that FIAT now own Chrysler...!!!
Andy

[andyowl]

Fiat and Simca, part 2, by Mick Ward of Simca Club UK...

The engine family the 1442 and 1592 belong to was SIMCA's own design that came out in 1967 with the launch of the front wheel drive 1118cc SIMCA 1100 and, in 1204cc form for the 1200S coupe.  A smaller 944cc version was fitted to the 1000 and 1294 (arguably the best of the bunch), 1442 and 1592 versions followed.

 The last FIAT derived engines were the pre '67 SIMCA 1000 engine (944cc) and the engine used in the 1300/1500 and 1301/1501 (replaced in 1975 by the Chrysler Alpine that used the familiar 1442).... The1501 etc engines were a development of the old Aronde 1290cc engines (Flash/Rush etc)  with FIAT 1100 origins and the early 1000 engines were based on the FIAT 850 unit.....both these engines used a centrifugal oil filter on the end of the crank.

Thanks Mick! Andy

[bert1]

I knew of the fiat 1100/1300/1500 similarities to the Aronde motors (Fiats though only had 3 bearing mains - hence the desire by most to run Simca blocks in high performance applications). Interestingly my friend with the Formula Junior discovered the irony that despite the Simca's far superior bottom end, the head of the Fiat was a much better design with less "siamese-ing" of the ports. There were other detail differences however, not least the bore spacing. He persevered to mate the 1100 head with Rush block - but it was a lot of work. Its quite a weapon!

From reading Mick's description of the Simca 1100 series of engines it confirms my discovery that Fiat and Simca had little in common by this time. Fiat were busy introducing the new belt driven Lampredi engines - the twin cam  (1966 for the 124 Coupe and Spider) and the SOHC (1969 in the 128 Sedan) which of course became their mainstays until the mid/late 1990's.

Not surprisingly there were "legacy" engines - one that springs to mind was the 1600 pushrod engine fitted in all manner of cars as an "entry level" engine with the up-spec versions receiving the Twin Cams. I don't know that much about them - but there do appear to be some passing resemblances to the Aronde/1100 engines and they developed a reputation for being tough workhorses - although most now have been replaced with the TC's. It would be interesting to see if there is much scope to "hot up" Aronde motors with bits from this Fiat - most obviously would be the 8 port crossflow head....

Sorry Andy - didn't mean to turn your thread into a history lesson - more Supercharged Bagheera talk needed here! In fact its time to start my own thread to wreck as I picked up the "Super Bagheera" motor today - still a lot to do - but the bones are there now!

[andyowl]

I have been less than diligent at watching this forum recently.

What is the "Super Bagheera" engine??? Is it described in another thread?

Andy

[bert1]

Hi Andy - no - I should start a new thread for my car. Its been 19 years in the making - which must be a record to repair a slipping clutch!

My "Super" motor is now on the floor ready for installation. Its pretty much as "full on" as it can be - and still be suitable for road use. Fully forged bottom end, heavily worked head with big valves etc. Today I put down the coin for the fuel injection which is TWM throttle bodies, ECU is Haltech Sport 1000 with full wideband control and direct fire ignition. I like your supercharger system - but I'm more an atmo guy myself - and I'm not keen on carbys!

I have a lot of work to do before it goes in though so I'll be looking for some help along the way! I'll also need some guidance on where to get the bits I need, I imagine!

I'll start a thread so I stop destroying yours! Sorry!

[andyowl]

It's all good stuff. Another approach is always good to read.

I'm still awaiting more info from Spyros ref his Golf 16V head (hint - hint!) but while I am interested in the use of a Peugeot Mi16 lump (it is related to Talbot/Simca after all!) I think I want to pursue the blower scheme until I can't go any further.

I have asked advice from the Lumenition staff ref their modules intended for use with supercharged engines to alter the ignition timing at high boost pressures. Nothing received yet! They claim that normal compression ratios can be used at up to 12psi (0.8bar) as I am getting at the moment. This would remove the need for a de-compression plate and a vulnerable component.

Andy

[bert1]

Andy programmable ignition is a snap these days. If you are handy with a soldering iron or know someone who is, you can even build one of these devices yourself eg:

http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=KC5442&form=CAT2&SUBCATID=965#11

This unit allows you to "build" a fully custom advance curve to suit yourself. You would "lock" the advance mechanism in your original distributor and let the controller do its thing. To me, for the price, that's about as good as it gets!


Off the shelf there are other units such as this:

http://www.allisonsautomotive.com/products.html

(scroll down to about 3/4 the way through). Mark's units allow you to run direct fire (ie no more distributor cap or rotor to wear). These ones use mechanical advance but have a simple adjustment. Not as sophisticated in terms of advance - but with the benefit of direct fire. Obviously some tinkering would be required to adapt the Fiat distributor to the Simca - but they aren't THAT dissimilar.

On pretty much all my cars I use the Haltech injection ECU to control ignition as well. Haltech used to offer an "ignition only" computer but I notice it has now been discontinued. I am sure other makers still offer them though. Might also be worth looking into "Megajolt Lt Jr" which is the ignition version of the "Megasquirt" DIY injection system.

http://www.autosportlabs.net/Main_Page.

I have one of those systems here to play with for a friend who wants to retain carbys. It uses the Ford EDIS system (I believe fitted to Mondeo's and such) and a crank angle sensor on the front pulley as the basis and has full advance curve control. Its still in the box though so I can't give you any thoughts (yet) on this one.

I don't have any association with any of these sellers or products - they are just things that I have become aware of in my travels and thought might be worth looking at for you. Hope you found some of them useful.

I'm interested in the 16v head project too - although realistically I'm too far down the 8v simca path to go back. I notice in the ETAI book that Matra themselves did a 16v head for the 1294. Drooooooooool.  

Cheers
Dave

[andyowl]

As you may read in the LSD thread the 1592cc engine I have been using in Baggy Joe is "Not worth spending money on" says my tuning man Dermot McGivern of "Power 4 Peanuts" in Hersham, Surrey.

We had dismantled the engine with the intention of having it balanced, the head and block skimmed where the blown gasket/de-compression plate had scored both surfaces, and several other things. Dermot degreased the components and started measuring the important bits. The cylinder bores are all of different sizes although nominally 0.4mm oversize and one was barrel shaped and not even straight. Three gudgeon pins had been fitted badly and the pistons were distorted and gripping the pin surfaces. They had turned blue with the heat caused by the friction! The fourth piston had a good gudgeon pin but the sides of the piston were scuffed and "picking up" on the sides below the pins - another sign of piston distortion! The head has several cracks between the valves. The camshaft lobes are badly worn. The crankshaft is worn but a good polish would improve that.  Not good news. I'll take pics of the damaged bits so you can recognise the problems if it happens to you!

I was lucky that the engine has lasted as long as it has! "Now for Plan B". See the next posting. Andy