Title: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: pduke on May 23, 2020, 07:53:14 pm
And here we go!
The cooling system had water and antifreeze inside for quite a few years so i decideted to drain it and see if i can save the radiator. I can't seem to find a lowest point than the one with the red arrow in the photo. I took out the hose, opened the cap from the expansion tank and let the fluid run. The plastic intake where the hose fits looks up, so it is impossible to drain the entire system. Squeezing the upper hose (green arrow) i can hear liquid bubbling inside.
Looking under the radiator i can't seem to find any valve or something.
Also i remember having great problems with the cooling system keeping air bubbles inside and thus heating up the engine above normal. The fans switched to the fastest speed too late when the gauge was already deep in the "reds"
Could you please suggest the best method for draining and refilling the cooling system the "right way" ?
Last, i realized that the temp gauge in the cockpit doesn't work anymore. is there a way to test what could be the problem? the valve fitted on the radiator (just above red in photo), the gauge itself? something else?
do excuse my english... car repairing vocabulary is too hard to learn :(
cheers!
(http://i.imgur.com/RzrjwFOm.jpg) (https://imgur.com/RzrjwFO) (http://i.imgur.com/DjF5QZkm.jpg) (https://imgur.com/DjF5QZk)
EDIT I: after going through some articles it seems that there should be a cylinder block drain plug but no photos. I ll check tommorow and see if i can find it.
The cooling system had water and antifreeze inside for quite a few years so i decideted to drain it and see if i can save the radiator. I can't seem to find a lowest point than the one with the red arrow in the photo. I took out the hose, opened the cap from the expansion tank and let the fluid run. The plastic intake where the hose fits looks up, so it is impossible to drain the entire system. Squeezing the upper hose (green arrow) i can hear liquid bubbling inside.
Looking under the radiator i can't seem to find any valve or something.
Also i remember having great problems with the cooling system keeping air bubbles inside and thus heating up the engine above normal. The fans switched to the fastest speed too late when the gauge was already deep in the "reds"
Could you please suggest the best method for draining and refilling the cooling system the "right way" ?
Last, i realized that the temp gauge in the cockpit doesn't work anymore. is there a way to test what could be the problem? the valve fitted on the radiator (just above red in photo), the gauge itself? something else?
do excuse my english... car repairing vocabulary is too hard to learn :(
cheers!
(http://i.imgur.com/RzrjwFOm.jpg) (https://imgur.com/RzrjwFO) (http://i.imgur.com/DjF5QZkm.jpg) (https://imgur.com/DjF5QZk)
EDIT I: after going through some articles it seems that there should be a cylinder block drain plug but no photos. I ll check tommorow and see if i can find it.
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: roy4matra on May 23, 2020, 09:31:37 pm
And here we go!
The cooling system had water and antifreeze inside for quite a few years so i decideted to drain it and see if i can save the radiator. I can't seem to find a lowest point than the one with the red arrow in the photo. I took out the hose, opened the cap from the expansion tank and let the fluid run. The plastic intake where the hose fits looks up, so it is impossible to drain the entire system. Squeezing the upper hose (green arrow) i can hear liquid bubbling inside.
Looking under the radiator i can't seem to find any valve or something.
The cooling system had water and antifreeze inside for quite a few years so i decideted to drain it and see if i can save the radiator. I can't seem to find a lowest point than the one with the red arrow in the photo. I took out the hose, opened the cap from the expansion tank and let the fluid run. The plastic intake where the hose fits looks up, so it is impossible to drain the entire system. Squeezing the upper hose (green arrow) i can hear liquid bubbling inside.
Looking under the radiator i can't seem to find any valve or something.
There is no proper drain point any more. The best way is to remove the radiator, and empty that, and whilst the radiator is out, lower the lowest hoses to drain the system. Make sure you have the heater control set to hot so the tap is fully open and the heater will drain too.
Quote
Also i remember having great problems with the cooling system keeping air bubbles inside and thus heating up the engine above normal. The fans switched to the fastest speed too late when the gauge was already deep in the "reds"
Could you please suggest the best method for draining and refilling the cooling system the "right way" ?
Could you please suggest the best method for draining and refilling the cooling system the "right way" ?
Yes the correct way now is with a special tool, which sucks all the air out of the system, and you see all the hoses collapse owing to the vacuum inside! It is held in that state for a few minutes to see that it doesn't loose any vacuum, proving the system is air tight. Then if all is OK you turn the tap on the special tool and it sucks the pre-mixed anti-freeze and water from its reservoir back into the system, filling it completely with no air locks!
Now obviously you won't have this expensive special tool as it is for garages. So the only thing you can do is fill it and pressurise the header tank bottle to push the fluid around the system and try to get the air out from the highest point - so you leave the radiator bleed hose slightly loose to start with to let the air out. When it is as full as you get get, you secure the hoses, and run the engine, but as it gets up to temperature and starts building pressure, you must open the bleed screw carefully (don't forget the coolant will be very hot) to allow any air or steam to escape. You may need to do this several times, allowing the coolant to circulate and hopefully bringing any air out of the pockets it has been staying in, so that it can be bled out. Note the coolant tank level.
Finally you can take the vehicle for a run, carrying some spare pre-mixed coolant, and you watch the gauge carefully to make sure it doesn't rise above the top temp. which should be around 100 degrees, and also note that the fan is cutting in if it gets above 90 whilst stationary, as in traffic. If the coolant level in the tank has dropped considerably you need to top it up again, but let it cool a little first and as you release the header tank cap, be careful because as you release the pressure the coolant may boil. Once it is topped up to a safe level, you can run the vehicle some more.
If you think you have all the air out, and the radiator fan is cutting in when it reaches the switch cut-in temperature, then you should let it cool at least overnight, and then check the header tank is on the max. level mark, and adjust if necessary. From this point, whenever it is cold after a long period without running such as overnight, the level should always be at the same level. These are sealed systems and the level should never drop, otherwise you have a leak or a problem somewhere.
Quote
Last, i realized that the temp gauge in the cockpit doesn't work anymore. is there a way to test what could be the problem? the valve fitted on the radiator (just above red in photo), the gauge itself? something else?
You need to fix this first because you must be able to see the temperature from the instruments, otherwise how would you know if it is overheating? Especially after filling the system and making sure all the air is out, as described above.
The first thing to check is the temperature sender and wiring. The sender should be in the thermostat housing. It has one wire to it, and if you remove it from the sender and earth it, the temperature gauge should go to maximum. If it does, then replace the sender. If it does not then you have to investigate and diagnose where the fault actually is, and if you are an auto electrician you will know how to do this properly. If you are not an auto electrician, then I am not going to detail it here, because it is too long and I doubt you would have the knowledge or equipment to do it correctly. Take it to someone who does know.
Roy
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: mhi on May 23, 2020, 10:58:08 pm
I had temperature gauge problems a few years back in my J63. If your reference is the Haynes manual, beware, because it is not clear. There are TWO temperature sensors/senders. There's one connected only to the engine management computer, and the other connected only to the dashboard temperature gauge.
My fault was intermittent: the gauge used to flicker up to maximum. Eventually it became bad enough to find the cause, which was a bit of the insulation worn through over the wire to the sensor. This was just where the single wire leaves the wiring loom in front of the engine; it short-circuited to the (earthed) metal bracket holding the loom.
Once found, easily fixed with a little insulating tape over the worn patch and a length of spiral plastic cable wrap to support the single wire and prevent more wear.
Your fault may be different, but the point where that wire leaves the support of the loom is worth checking.
Mark
My fault was intermittent: the gauge used to flicker up to maximum. Eventually it became bad enough to find the cause, which was a bit of the insulation worn through over the wire to the sensor. This was just where the single wire leaves the wiring loom in front of the engine; it short-circuited to the (earthed) metal bracket holding the loom.
Once found, easily fixed with a little insulating tape over the worn patch and a length of spiral plastic cable wrap to support the single wire and prevent more wear.
Your fault may be different, but the point where that wire leaves the support of the loom is worth checking.
Mark
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: pduke on May 24, 2020, 10:32:01 am
Now obviously you won't have this expensive special tool as it is for garages. So the only thing you can do is fill it and pressurise the header tank bottle to push the fluid around the system and try to get the air out from the highest point - so you leave the radiator bleed hose slightly loose to start with to let the air out. When it is as full as you get get, you secure the hoses, and run the engine, but as it gets up to temperature and starts building pressure, you must open the bleed screw carefully (don't forget the coolant will be very hot) to allow any air or steam to escape. You may need to do this several times, allowing the coolant to circulate and hopefully bringing any air out of the pockets it has been staying in, so that it can be bled out. Note the coolant tank level.
Finally you can take the vehicle for a run, carrying some spare pre-mixed coolant, and you watch the gauge carefully to make sure it doesn't rise above the top temp. which should be around 100 degrees, and also note that the fan is cutting in if it gets above 90 whilst stationary, as in traffic. If the coolant level in the tank has dropped considerably you need to top it up again, but let it cool a little first and as you release the header tank cap, be careful because as you release the pressure the coolant may boil. Once it is topped up to a safe level, you can run the vehicle some more.
If you think you have all the air out, and the radiator fan is cutting in when it reaches the switch cut-in temperature, then you should let it cool at least overnight, and then check the header tank is on the max. level mark, and adjust if necessary. From this point, whenever it is cold after a long period without running such as overnight, the level should always be at the same level. These are sealed systems and the level should never drop, otherwise you have a leak or a problem somewhere.
I think i understand what you say. Note that i have another problem. If you check my photos, the main top hose is not an original part so it misses the bleed screw. This will make it harder. but i will give it a shot. I will also try to spot if this cylinder block drain plug exists.
Removing the radiator is not an option yet because i wouldn't know how to do it... I assume i should take out the front mask, grill, headlights probably and the fans system, but i do not feel confident ... yet. NowiIt stuck in my mind though so .. i ll let it there see how it evolves...
You need to fix this first because you must be able to see the temperature from the instruments, otherwise how would you know if it is overheating? Especially after filling the system and making sure all the air is out, as described above.
The first thing to check is the temperature sender and wiring. The sender should be in the thermostat housing. It has one wire to it, and if you remove it from the sender and earth it, the temperature gauge should go to maximum. If it does, then replace the sender. If it does not then you have to investigate and diagnose where the fault actually is, and if you are an auto electrician you will know how to do this properly. If you are not an auto electrician, then I am not going to detail it here, because it is too long and I doubt you would have the knowledge or equipment to do it correctly. Take it to someone who does know.
Roy
By temperature sender i believe you are reffering to the sensor/switch at the right side of the radiator about middle hight, correct? The one that switches fans on and off? I'll check and see into it, try to earth it and see if the gauge is ...alive.The first thing to check is the temperature sender and wiring. The sender should be in the thermostat housing. It has one wire to it, and if you remove it from the sender and earth it, the temperature gauge should go to maximum. If it does, then replace the sender. If it does not then you have to investigate and diagnose where the fault actually is, and if you are an auto electrician you will know how to do this properly. If you are not an auto electrician, then I am not going to detail it here, because it is too long and I doubt you would have the knowledge or equipment to do it correctly. Take it to someone who does know.
Roy
I had temperature gauge problems a few years back in my J63. If your reference is the Haynes manual, beware, because it is not clear. There are TWO temperature sensors/senders. There's one connected only to the engine management computer, and the other connected only to the dashboard temperature gauge.
My fault was intermittent: the gauge used to flicker up to maximum. Eventually it became bad enough to find the cause, which was a bit of the insulation worn through over the wire to the sensor. This was just where the single wire leaves the wiring loom in front of the engine; it short-circuited to the (earthed) metal bracket holding the loom.
Once found, easily fixed with a little insulating tape over the worn patch and a length of spiral plastic cable wrap to support the single wire and prevent more wear.
Your fault may be different, but the point where that wire leaves the support of the loom is worth checking.
Mark
Deffinatelly a good find this one. Thank you Mark. Now i need to find where these two guys are...My fault was intermittent: the gauge used to flicker up to maximum. Eventually it became bad enough to find the cause, which was a bit of the insulation worn through over the wire to the sensor. This was just where the single wire leaves the wiring loom in front of the engine; it short-circuited to the (earthed) metal bracket holding the loom.
Once found, easily fixed with a little insulating tape over the worn patch and a length of spiral plastic cable wrap to support the single wire and prevent more wear.
Your fault may be different, but the point where that wire leaves the support of the loom is worth checking.
Mark
If anyone could post any pictures of these sensors, i will be obliged. As you can tell i am really the visual kind of person :)
i ll report back, cheers!
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: roy4matra on May 25, 2020, 02:55:27 pm
By temperature sender i believe you are reffering to the sensor/switch at the right side of the radiator about middle hight, correct? The one that switches fans on and off? I'll check and see into it, try to earth it and see if the gauge is ...alive.
No, the switch in the radiator is the fan switch, which triggers the cooling fan when the coolant reaches a certain level. Your switch should be a 95/86 degrees switch (as long as you don't have air conditioning fitted) meaning it cuts in at 95 degrees and out again once the coolant has dropped to 86 degrees.
This switch has nothing to do with the gauge in the instrument panel.
The temperature sender, as I stated, is in the thermostat housing. There are two. One for the gauge (a single wire) and the other is for the engine computer (two wire).
The thermostat housing is on the front right of the cylinder head.
Also beware of the Haynes manual for the Espace Series 1 Phase 1 (1984 to 1987) Espace I Phase II (1988 to 1991) and Series II (1991 to 1996) as it gets it all wrong and the wiring diagrams are mostly inaccurate since they are based on the pre-production model and not the real things! Matra and Renault had already updated much by the time the first ones hit the road, so the diagrams in the Haynes manual are well out of date! One example is the heater fan according to the diagrams in the Haynes have three speeds. Not true, except for the very first 1984/5. They all have a four speed fan set up where '0' is the first speed and comes on as soon as you switch the ignition on. There is no 'Off' except with the ignition off. '1' on the switch is speed 2, '2' is speed 3, and '3' is speed 4 or the top speed which is a direct connection. The others pass through various resistors and relays.
Haynes can't even get the name correct! Your J63 Espace is a Series II, but Haynes calls it a Series 3. An Espace Series III is the transverse engined highly electronic and complex Espace that ran from 1996 to 2002.
Roy
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: pduke on May 26, 2020, 05:09:58 pm
Ok i got it. This is not the one. Is this the one?
(http://i.imgur.com/TRhBBs1t.jpg) (https://imgur.com/TRhBBs1)
i really can't find any single or double cables ... i wonder how bad i am at this ::)
I know Haynes is very inaccurate, few times is usefull since there is nothing else out there.
Here's what i did so far
- i drained as much as i could from the lower tube connection.
- I put a hose from the garden tap in the expansion tank and let it flow for a bit until the brown water became clear and transparent
- i did the same removing the top hose from the cylinder block and using the garden hose there
- Then since i couldn't suck .. i started to blow .... To be honest i think i managed to take the most of the remaining water out.
- I replaced the top hose with the original one which has a bleeding screw, and did some repairs to the screw.
- conected all hoses and started filling with valeo antifreeze 35 (g11) from the tank with leaving bleed screew open
So it seems full. Left the tank open (thinking that air bubbles could escape when the liquid got hoter..) tighten the bleeding screw and I started the engine, rev a bit for until i saw the bubbles in the tank. I was actually waiting for the fans to kick in. They didn't. And the liquid started bubbling a bit like before boil, so i got scared, turn off the engine and came back to the forum ;D
I don't know... shouldn't the fans kick in already? Truth is that without a temp gauge i can't go on. So i will focus on that.
(http://i.imgur.com/TRhBBs1t.jpg) (https://imgur.com/TRhBBs1)
i really can't find any single or double cables ... i wonder how bad i am at this ::)
I know Haynes is very inaccurate, few times is usefull since there is nothing else out there.
Here's what i did so far
- i drained as much as i could from the lower tube connection.
- I put a hose from the garden tap in the expansion tank and let it flow for a bit until the brown water became clear and transparent
- i did the same removing the top hose from the cylinder block and using the garden hose there
- Then since i couldn't suck .. i started to blow .... To be honest i think i managed to take the most of the remaining water out.
- I replaced the top hose with the original one which has a bleeding screw, and did some repairs to the screw.
- conected all hoses and started filling with valeo antifreeze 35 (g11) from the tank with leaving bleed screew open
So it seems full. Left the tank open (thinking that air bubbles could escape when the liquid got hoter..) tighten the bleeding screw and I started the engine, rev a bit for until i saw the bubbles in the tank. I was actually waiting for the fans to kick in. They didn't. And the liquid started bubbling a bit like before boil, so i got scared, turn off the engine and came back to the forum ;D
I don't know... shouldn't the fans kick in already? Truth is that without a temp gauge i can't go on. So i will focus on that.
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: pduke on May 28, 2020, 01:20:15 pm
The temperature sender, as I stated, is in the thermostat housing. There are two. One for the gauge (a single wire) and the other is for the engine computer (two wire).
The thermostat housing is on the front right of the cylinder head.
I honestly can't find where or even what a thermostat housing is in my model.The thermostat housing is on the front right of the cylinder head.
Searching in online parts catalogues they all have housing only for the diesel models.
-> https://www.onlinecarparts.co.uk/spares-search.html?keyword=Thermostat%20Housing
There is the classic water thermostat that goes in the upper hose
-> https://www.autodoc.co.uk/spares-search?keyword=Thermostat
And there is the coolant temperature sensor, which i believe it is the one on the left side of the radiator and toggles the fans.
-> https://www.autodoc.co.uk/spares-search?keyword=coolant+temperature+sensor
Forgot to say, since you mention it Roy, i got the Air Condition model.
Also as far as i can remember my model has 2 fan speeds, normal and fast.
Also i found this very usefull website. Still no thermostat housing...
-> catcar // Renault Espace II (http://www.catcar.info/renault/?lang=en&l=c3Q9PTQwfHxzdHM9PXsiMTAiOiJNb2RlbCIsIjIwIjoiRXNwYWNlIElJIiwiMzAiOiJKNjM3IiwiNDAiOiJNYW51YWwifXx8bm9wcnM9PTEyMzR8fGJyYW5kPT1SZW5hdWx0fHxub3ByPT0xMjM0fHx0eXBlPT1KNjM3fHxjYXRfaWQ9PU0%3D)
Pan
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: pduke on May 30, 2020, 01:19:24 pm
anybody ? :(
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: roy4matra on May 31, 2020, 07:35:23 pm
Ok i got it. This is not the one. Is this the one?
No, that is on the front left of the engine, and as I said the thermostat housing is on the front right.
The item you appear to be pointing to, although as the photo is a bit small it is difficult to be sure, is the Bosch idle control valve I think.
Quote
i really can't find any single or double cables ... i wonder how bad i am at this ::)
First find the thermostat housing. Then note the two sender units in it. One has a single wire to it and the other has a two wires to it, one for earth. It is the single wire sender that sends the signal to the instrument gauge.
Quote
I know Haynes is very inaccurate, few times is usefull since there is nothing else out there.
Here's what i did so far
- i drained as much as i could from the lower tube connection.
- I put a hose from the garden tap in the expansion tank and let it flow for a bit until the brown water became clear and transparent
- i did the same removing the top hose from the cylinder block and using the garden hose there
- Then since i couldn't suck .. i started to blow .... To be honest i think i managed to take the most of the remaining water out.
- I replaced the top hose with the original one which has a bleeding screw, and did some repairs to the screw.
- conected all hoses and started filling with valeo antifreeze 35 (g11) from the tank with leaving bleed screew open
So it seems full. Left the tank open (thinking that air bubbles could escape when the liquid got hoter..) tighten the bleeding screw and I started the engine, rev a bit for until i saw the bubbles in the tank. I was actually waiting for the fans to kick in. They didn't. And the liquid started bubbling a bit like before boil, so i got scared, turn off the engine and came back to the forum ;D
I don't know... shouldn't the fans kick in already? Truth is that without a temp gauge i can't go on. So i will focus on that.
Here's what i did so far
- i drained as much as i could from the lower tube connection.
- I put a hose from the garden tap in the expansion tank and let it flow for a bit until the brown water became clear and transparent
- i did the same removing the top hose from the cylinder block and using the garden hose there
- Then since i couldn't suck .. i started to blow .... To be honest i think i managed to take the most of the remaining water out.
- I replaced the top hose with the original one which has a bleeding screw, and did some repairs to the screw.
- conected all hoses and started filling with valeo antifreeze 35 (g11) from the tank with leaving bleed screew open
So it seems full. Left the tank open (thinking that air bubbles could escape when the liquid got hoter..) tighten the bleeding screw and I started the engine, rev a bit for until i saw the bubbles in the tank. I was actually waiting for the fans to kick in. They didn't. And the liquid started bubbling a bit like before boil, so i got scared, turn off the engine and came back to the forum ;D
I don't know... shouldn't the fans kick in already? Truth is that without a temp gauge i can't go on. So i will focus on that.
One problem is that if there is no coolant around the radiator fan switch as it has an air lock in there, it cannot read any temperature so the fans will never cut in! This is why the system has to be totally full with no air locks anywhere. As I pointed out, this is very difficult to do without the proper equipment. The reason the Renault tool sucks all the air out of the system first is that tests its air tightness, and would show up any place where coolant could leak under pressure. The second is that once you have a system with a total vacuum, once you switch the tool to 'fill', that vacuum sucks the premixed coolant from the tool reservoir into every nook and cranny of the cooling system, so there can be no air locks.
Leaving the bleed screw open whilst filling is not going to work unfortunately as the bleed screw is below the highest point of the system. It is also very small and meant to be used when the system is under pressure, but if the engine has been run without being able to build any pressure, then it won't be effective.
Roy
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: roy4matra on May 31, 2020, 07:53:59 pm
The temperature sender, as I stated, is in the thermostat housing. There are two. One for the gauge (a single wire) and the other is for the engine computer (two wire).
The thermostat housing is on the front right of the cylinder head.
I honestly can't find where or even what a thermostat housing is in my model.The thermostat housing is on the front right of the cylinder head.
Searching in online parts catalogues they all have housing only for the diesel models.
-> https://www.onlinecarparts.co.uk/spares-search.html?keyword=Thermostat%20Housing
There is the classic water thermostat that goes in the upper hose
-> https://www.autodoc.co.uk/spares-search?keyword=Thermostat
And there is the coolant temperature sensor, which i believe it is the one on the left side of the radiator and toggles the fans.
-> https://www.autodoc.co.uk/spares-search?keyword=coolant+temperature+sensor
Forgot to say, since you mention it Roy, i got the Air Condition model.
Also as far as i can remember my model has 2 fan speeds, normal and fast.
Also i found this very usefull website. Still no thermostat housing...
-> http://www.catcar.info/renault/?lang=en&l=c3Q9PTQwfHxzdHM9PXsiMTAiOiJNb2RlbCIsIjIwIjoiRXNwYWNlIElJIiwiMzAiOiJKNjM3IiwiNDAiOiJNYW51YWwifXx8bm9wcnM9PTEyMzR8fGJyYW5kPT1SZW5hdWx0fHxub3ByPT0xMjM0fHx0eXBlPT1KNjM3fHxjYXRfaWQ9PU0%3D
Pan
OK since you have air con. too, that changes things, and I really need your VIN and Oval Plate details then to make sure I am looking at the correct things on Dialogys.
However, here is a drawing from Dialogys of the thermostat housing and sensors on a J636. The thermostat is No.19 and there are a number of sensors for gauge and injection computer but only some will apply depending on those VIN and oval plate details. And I've circled your own photo showing it!
Roy
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: pduke on May 31, 2020, 10:06:31 pm
oh thank you so very much Roy! then it should be here:
(http://i.imgur.com/TYFjfSfl.png) (https://imgur.com/TYFjfSf)
I will have a look at it in the morning, although ....
from what you are saying i do not give to many chances to my beloved Espace. It doesn't even has licence plates at this point. I thought if i could shape it up a bit i would make my mind up and pay for the stupid high taxes we have here. But the way i see it, it will probably need a renault technician. Thus the costs go further up.
Freaking crazy world, a rolex costs as much as 25 espaces.... and you pay no tax.
Anyway, checking first thing in the morning and i will post my VIN and plate.
cheers!
(http://i.imgur.com/TYFjfSfl.png) (https://imgur.com/TYFjfSf)
No, that is on the front left of the engine, and as I said the thermostat housing is on the front right.
The item you appear to be pointing to, although as the photo is a bit small it is difficult to be sure, is the Bosch idle control valve I think.
i completelly lost track on which pivot point we look the engine from :PThe item you appear to be pointing to, although as the photo is a bit small it is difficult to be sure, is the Bosch idle control valve I think.
Quote
First find the thermostat housing. Then note the two sender units in it. One has a single wire to it and the other has a two wires to it, one for earth. It is the single wire sender that sends the signal to the instrument gauge.
I will have a look at it in the morning, although ....
Quote
One problem is that if there is no coolant around the radiator fan switch as it has an air lock in there, it cannot read any temperature so the fans will never cut in! This is why the system has to be totally full with no air locks anywhere. As I pointed out, this is very difficult to do without the proper equipment. The reason the Renault tool sucks all the air out of the system first is that tests its air tightness, and would show up any place where coolant could leak under pressure. The second is that once you have a system with a total vacuum, once you switch the tool to 'fill', that vacuum sucks the premixed coolant from the tool reservoir into every nook and cranny of the cooling system, so there can be no air locks.
Leaving the bleed screw open whilst filling is not going to work unfortunately as the bleed screw is below the highest point of the system. It is also very small and meant to be used when the system is under pressure, but if the engine has been run without being able to build any pressure, then it won't be effective.
Roy
Leaving the bleed screw open whilst filling is not going to work unfortunately as the bleed screw is below the highest point of the system. It is also very small and meant to be used when the system is under pressure, but if the engine has been run without being able to build any pressure, then it won't be effective.
Roy
from what you are saying i do not give to many chances to my beloved Espace. It doesn't even has licence plates at this point. I thought if i could shape it up a bit i would make my mind up and pay for the stupid high taxes we have here. But the way i see it, it will probably need a renault technician. Thus the costs go further up.
Freaking crazy world, a rolex costs as much as 25 espaces.... and you pay no tax.
Anyway, checking first thing in the morning and i will post my VIN and plate.
cheers!
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: roy4matra on June 01, 2020, 12:14:36 am
i completelly lost track on which pivot point we look the engine from :P
This is to clarify for anyone working on any vehicle whether right or left hand drive, the convention is you always call the LH or RH side of any vehicle as if you are looking forward from the drivers (or indeed any) forward facing seat.
So the sides will always be the same. Even if you were looking backwards into the engine compartment, the LH and RH sides must remain the same as if you are looking forward. Then there can be no doubt or mix up.
It is another reason you should never use N/S and O/S as that will change depending on which side of the road you drive. The terms N/S (nearside) and O/S (offside) are short for nearside to kerb and offside from kerb. So if you are in the U.K. or any country that drives on the left, the N/S is the LH side of the vehicle irrespective of where the steering wheel is. But if you are in a country that drives on the right side of the road like much of Europe, then N/S means the right side of the vehicle as that is nearest their kerb. Now you can see why these terms can lead to confusion. They are fine between professionals in the trade or anyone else that truly understands, but they lead to all sorts of confusion when the public use the term incorrectly, and we spend time looking for problems on the opposite side to where it really is! I have seen this happen many times in the years I spent in the trade.
Roy
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: pduke on June 01, 2020, 03:27:10 pm
This is to clarify for anyone working on any vehicle whether right or left hand drive, the convention is you always call the LH or RH side of any vehicle as if you are looking forward from the drivers (or indeed any) forward facing seat.
So the sides will always be the same. Even if you were looking backwards into the engine compartment, the LH and RH sides must remain the same as if you are looking forward. Then there can be no doubt or mix up.
It is another reason you should never use N/S and O/S as that will change depending on which side of the road you drive. The terms N/S (nearside) and O/S (offside) are short for nearside to kerb and offside from kerb. So if you are in the U.K. or any country that drives on the left, the N/S is the LH side of the vehicle irrespective of where the steering wheel is. But if you are in a country that drives on the right side of the road like much of Europe, then N/S means the right side of the vehicle as that is nearest their kerb. Now you can see why these terms can lead to confusion. They are fine between professionals in the trade or anyone else that truly understands, but they lead to all sorts of confusion when the public use the term incorrectly, and we spend time looking for problems on the opposite side to where it really is! I have seen this happen many times in the years I spent in the trade.
Roy
So the sides will always be the same. Even if you were looking backwards into the engine compartment, the LH and RH sides must remain the same as if you are looking forward. Then there can be no doubt or mix up.
It is another reason you should never use N/S and O/S as that will change depending on which side of the road you drive. The terms N/S (nearside) and O/S (offside) are short for nearside to kerb and offside from kerb. So if you are in the U.K. or any country that drives on the left, the N/S is the LH side of the vehicle irrespective of where the steering wheel is. But if you are in a country that drives on the right side of the road like much of Europe, then N/S means the right side of the vehicle as that is nearest their kerb. Now you can see why these terms can lead to confusion. They are fine between professionals in the trade or anyone else that truly understands, but they lead to all sorts of confusion when the public use the term incorrectly, and we spend time looking for problems on the opposite side to where it really is! I have seen this happen many times in the years I spent in the trade.
Roy
Everything seemed wrong... now it is clear. I had no idea to be honest that such rules existed.
You need to fix this first because you must be able to see the temperature from the instruments, otherwise how would you know if it is overheating? Especially after filling the system and making sure all the air is out, as described above.
The first thing to check is the temperature sender and wiring. The sender should be in the thermostat housing. It has one wire to it, and if you remove it from the sender and earth it, the temperature gauge should go to maximum. If it does, then replace the sender. If it does not then you have to investigate and diagnose where the fault actually is, and if you are an auto electrician you will know how to do this properly. If you are not an auto electrician, then I am not going to detail it here, because it is too long and I doubt you would have the knowledge or equipment to do it correctly. Take it to someone who does know.
Roy
The first thing to check is the temperature sender and wiring. The sender should be in the thermostat housing. It has one wire to it, and if you remove it from the sender and earth it, the temperature gauge should go to maximum. If it does, then replace the sender. If it does not then you have to investigate and diagnose where the fault actually is, and if you are an auto electrician you will know how to do this properly. If you are not an auto electrician, then I am not going to detail it here, because it is too long and I doubt you would have the knowledge or equipment to do it correctly. Take it to someone who does know.
Roy
So since it was just in front of me, i unplugged the cable from the sender, followed your advice and earthed it and the sensor went straight to maximum. So it should be the sender. I am ordering one right now. Any certain brand you recommend from your long experience?
The existing is the old Jaeger i guess ... don't know if i can find one now. It's part number should be 7700771821.
(http://i.imgur.com/dXAdAfLl.jpg) (https://imgur.com/dXAdAfL)
(http://i.imgur.com/Z5IZ2oGl.png) (https://imgur.com/Z5IZ2oG)
Got a photo of my Espace plate with VIN and everything. it is a VF8J637050R, but is it safe to post the rest of such info in public ?
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: roy4matra on June 01, 2020, 09:09:09 pm
Everything seemed wrong... now it is clear. I had no idea to be honest that such rules existed.
The terms N/S and O/S were coined by the English many years ago for use by the trade here, but it got 'out' around the world, and is often misused! :)
Quote
The existing is the old Jaeger i guess ... don't know if i can find one now. It's part number should be 7700771821.
That is correct. Use FAE 32240 sensor, which should be under 10 Euro. I found three straight away.
Quote
Got a photo of my Espace plate with VIN and everything. it is a VF8J637050R, but is it safe to post the rest of such info in public ?
Send me the details as I always say to my domain email, not here. roy@matraclub.org.uk
Roy
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: pduke on June 03, 2020, 09:06:15 pm
That is correct. Use FAE 32240 sensor, which should be under 10 Euro. I found three straight away.
I will report here
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: pduke on June 07, 2020, 04:28:26 pm
Sensor replaced. It is a 5 minutes job and all seem to work great in terms of temps for the little french doll!
I still can't test 2nd fans speed cause i haven't managed to reach such high temps although i left it running for quite a bit. First scale cuts in intime and never let it go as high.
So far so good.
My warmest thanks to Roy who's help was invaluable.
I still can't test 2nd fans speed cause i haven't managed to reach such high temps although i left it running for quite a bit. First scale cuts in intime and never let it go as high.
So far so good.
My warmest thanks to Roy who's help was invaluable.
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: roy4matra on June 19, 2020, 01:31:47 pm
Sensor replaced. It is a 5 minutes job and all seem to work great in terms of temps for the little french doll!
I still can't test 2nd fans speed cause i haven't managed to reach such high temps although i left it running for quite a bit. First scale cuts in intime and never let it go as high.
So far so good.
My warmest thanks to Roy who's help was invaluable.
I still can't test 2nd fans speed cause i haven't managed to reach such high temps although i left it running for quite a bit. First scale cuts in intime and never let it go as high.
So far so good.
My warmest thanks to Roy who's help was invaluable.
The fact that your fans never cut in at the higher speed is quite normal. I've had an Espace Quadra with air con. on the road for six years and never once did it get to the temperature to require the fans at high speed, even with some towing, and the air con. which automatically brings the fans on at low speed, that was enough to contain the temperatures, certainly in the U.K.
You could easily test the fans at their higher speed if you wanted to, by switching on the relay manually, or by linking out the radiator switch for the second stage, but you need to understand the electrics I suppose. But as long as low speed is containing the temperatures why worry. (unless you plan driving in the Sahara maybe!)
Roy
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: pduke on June 19, 2020, 02:32:02 pm
The fact that your fans never cut in at the higher speed is quite normal. I've had an Espace Quadra with air con. on the road for six years and never once did it get to the temperature to require the fans at high speed, even with some towing, and the air con. which automatically brings the fans on at low speed, that was enough to contain the temperatures, certainly in the U.K.
Well i suppose if the water coling system works fine, it won't have a problem. But still from my experience 2nd speed kicks in when the gauge goes deep in the reds... At this point i a stressed.Quote from: roy4matra
You could easily test the fans at their higher speed if you wanted to, by switching on the relay manually, or by linking out the radiator switch for the second stage, but you need to understand the electrics I suppose. But as long as low speed is containing the temperatures why worry. (unless you plan driving in the Sahara maybe!)
i don't know how to do that but now that outside temps are reaching 30 here, i will let it work and test it's limits. i have witnessed the whole system explode in front of my eyes, filling the cabin with cooland and steam ... so my worries are justified i guess... :)
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: mhi on June 19, 2020, 03:51:24 pm
The two fans run in series (6 V each) for low speed, and in parallel (12 V to both fans) for full speed. The only difference is the switch position of three relays, and their controls from switches in the air conditioning and cooling systems. Full speed needs the three-terminal temperature switch to operate and two relays to change over, and not much more than that -- it's not under control of the ignition switch or any fancy electronics.
I've only noticed top fan speed after driving at walking speed up a mile-long dirt road which climbs a hill in Britain's Peak District. On a warm day I have sometimes parked the car with the fans roaring for a minute or so.
- Mark
I've only noticed top fan speed after driving at walking speed up a mile-long dirt road which climbs a hill in Britain's Peak District. On a warm day I have sometimes parked the car with the fans roaring for a minute or so.
- Mark
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: pduke on June 19, 2020, 04:09:02 pm
I've only noticed top fan speed after driving at walking speed up a mile-long dirt road which climbs a hill in Britain's Peak District. On a warm day I have sometimes parked the car with the fans roaring for a minute or so.
- Mark
Not sure if it is of any value, but do you remember the position of the gauge when the fast fan speed kicked in?- Mark
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: pduke on June 22, 2020, 04:13:39 pm
I finally managed to take her for a spin for about half an hour so i got new data. I believe it is good, it is just ... new behaviour.
Outside temp ~30C
in photo we have 4 white slices as temp indicators and at the end the red slice.
1. while driving temp never got above slice 2 (from photo) - i consider this to be low (?). in the past it was working about where it is in the photo(end of 3rd ~ start of 4th) (could it be the thermostat not working and thus keeping the cooland flow continuously?)
2. when i got back, until i get in my yard and park it in its place the temp reached the middle of the 4th white slice. Fan was on. before i switch the engine off, fan went off as well. So i switched of the engine and jumped out of the car. 2 or 3 minutes later the fan started working for about ~3 minutes.
in the past it was a common behaviour for the Espace to keep the fan spinning for some time after the engine was off. But i never witnessed a "pause" of minutes before it starts. Should this worry me?
I would really appreciate your input into this guys. This and a starter thing(which i ll post in a new topic) are the 2 considerations before i take the lady for plate retrieval and finally get her going again.
(http://i.imgur.com/g2CERxUm.jpg) (https://imgur.com/g2CERxU)
Outside temp ~30C
in photo we have 4 white slices as temp indicators and at the end the red slice.
1. while driving temp never got above slice 2 (from photo) - i consider this to be low (?). in the past it was working about where it is in the photo(end of 3rd ~ start of 4th) (could it be the thermostat not working and thus keeping the cooland flow continuously?)
2. when i got back, until i get in my yard and park it in its place the temp reached the middle of the 4th white slice. Fan was on. before i switch the engine off, fan went off as well. So i switched of the engine and jumped out of the car. 2 or 3 minutes later the fan started working for about ~3 minutes.
in the past it was a common behaviour for the Espace to keep the fan spinning for some time after the engine was off. But i never witnessed a "pause" of minutes before it starts. Should this worry me?
I would really appreciate your input into this guys. This and a starter thing(which i ll post in a new topic) are the 2 considerations before i take the lady for plate retrieval and finally get her going again.
(http://i.imgur.com/g2CERxUm.jpg) (https://imgur.com/g2CERxU)
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: roy4matra on June 23, 2020, 05:18:38 pm
I finally managed to take her for a spin for about half an hour so i got new data. I believe it is good, it is just ... new behaviour.
Outside temp ~30C
in photo we have 4 white slices as temp indicators and at the end the red slice.
1. while driving temp never got above slice 2 (from photo) - i consider this to be low (?). in the past it was working about where it is in the photo(end of 3rd ~ start of 4th) (could it be the thermostat not working and thus keeping the cooland flow continuously?)
2. when i got back, until i get in my yard and park it in its place the temp reached the middle of the 4th white slice. Fan was on. before i switch the engine off, fan went off as well. So i switched of the engine and jumped out of the car. 2 or 3 minutes later the fan started working for about ~3 minutes.
in the past it was a common behaviour for the Espace to keep the fan spinning for some time after the engine was off. But i never witnessed a "pause" of minutes before it starts. Should this worry me?
Outside temp ~30C
in photo we have 4 white slices as temp indicators and at the end the red slice.
1. while driving temp never got above slice 2 (from photo) - i consider this to be low (?). in the past it was working about where it is in the photo(end of 3rd ~ start of 4th) (could it be the thermostat not working and thus keeping the cooland flow continuously?)
2. when i got back, until i get in my yard and park it in its place the temp reached the middle of the 4th white slice. Fan was on. before i switch the engine off, fan went off as well. So i switched of the engine and jumped out of the car. 2 or 3 minutes later the fan started working for about ~3 minutes.
in the past it was a common behaviour for the Espace to keep the fan spinning for some time after the engine was off. But i never witnessed a "pause" of minutes before it starts. Should this worry me?
That is quite unusual to stop then start again, but not necessarily a concern. What happens when you park and switch off is that the heat of the engine soaks upwards, so soon after switching off, the top actually gets hotter before it starts to cool down. The odd part is that the trigger for the fans is the switch in the radiator, which is lower down relative to the top of the engine. The only thing I can think that would cause this would be that the hot coolant at the top moved down to the radiator and triggered the switch but why would it move downwards as that should not be the case. I suppose a faulty relay could trip out and back in again a bit later when it should have stayed in.
When the fans came back on were they at the low speed or high speed?
Update: Just had another thought. It could be a faulty thermostat causing your problems, so I would change it, even if it has been changed recently. They are not expensive and can stick or fail and cause problems.
Roy
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: pduke on June 23, 2020, 05:56:32 pm
When the fans came back on were they at the low speed or high speed?
This happened 2 times. The first i was a bit far. I think it started at high speed, then down to slow and then it stopped. But i am not sure...The second time it was low speed.
Quote
Update: Just had another thought. It could be a faulty thermostat causing your problems, so I would change it, even if it has been changed recently. They are not expensive and can stick or fail and cause problems.
Roy
Roy
This was my thought too. Could be the cause of the low engine temp when driving as well.
I will order a thermostat. It is a very easy part to replace.
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: pduke on August 18, 2020, 09:53:05 pm
Update:
It has been a few weeks that the situation changed. No matter how hot is the engine when i park, the fans never cut in after i switch the engine off. This is not good i guess. So i kept an eye on the temp always and when needed i switch the aircon on. This way the fans start at low speed. At least i have fans.
So i went on and ordered a thermostat as discussed with Roy.
The new thermostat came a few days ago. (Gates)
I replaced it and took it for a “hot” ride. Came back and the gauge was sitting just before the red block. I parked and let the engine running.
The fans started to cut in and out for some time - low speed only - while the gauge slowly but steady was deeping more and more inside the “reds”…. !!! (why cut out though since the temp was not dropping???)
When it reached the middle of the red block i started to worry too much, i switched on the air con, opened the hood and i heard water bubbling from the tank but also from the engine block as well.
I immediately switched off the engine, turned the key so i have power and let the air con on so the fans keep spinning. It took quite a while for things to cool down …
I am not happy and i can’t understand. Tomorrow i am taking her to the mechanic. He is not a renault specialist but he seems experienced.
So far i have replaced the two sensors at the thermostat housing, the thermostat and i also have a new fan switch waiting to replace the old. (https://www.autodoc.co.uk/fae/2495721) I was unable to do this myself.
But i am thinking, what could be wrong here? If the problem is the switch then why is it giving the command to start? Is it just going “crazy”?
What about the bubbling? should such thing happen? Do i have an air leak?
Shall i tell them (the mechanics) anything specific to watch out for?
cheers all once more :)
Pan
It has been a few weeks that the situation changed. No matter how hot is the engine when i park, the fans never cut in after i switch the engine off. This is not good i guess. So i kept an eye on the temp always and when needed i switch the aircon on. This way the fans start at low speed. At least i have fans.
So i went on and ordered a thermostat as discussed with Roy.
The new thermostat came a few days ago. (Gates)
I replaced it and took it for a “hot” ride. Came back and the gauge was sitting just before the red block. I parked and let the engine running.
The fans started to cut in and out for some time - low speed only - while the gauge slowly but steady was deeping more and more inside the “reds”…. !!! (why cut out though since the temp was not dropping???)
When it reached the middle of the red block i started to worry too much, i switched on the air con, opened the hood and i heard water bubbling from the tank but also from the engine block as well.
I immediately switched off the engine, turned the key so i have power and let the air con on so the fans keep spinning. It took quite a while for things to cool down …
I am not happy and i can’t understand. Tomorrow i am taking her to the mechanic. He is not a renault specialist but he seems experienced.
So far i have replaced the two sensors at the thermostat housing, the thermostat and i also have a new fan switch waiting to replace the old. (https://www.autodoc.co.uk/fae/2495721) I was unable to do this myself.
But i am thinking, what could be wrong here? If the problem is the switch then why is it giving the command to start? Is it just going “crazy”?
What about the bubbling? should such thing happen? Do i have an air leak?
Shall i tell them (the mechanics) anything specific to watch out for?
cheers all once more :)
Pan
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 19, 2020, 04:46:41 am
Update:
It has been a few weeks that the situation changed. No matter how hot is the engine when i park, the fans never cut in after i switch the engine off. This is not good i guess. So i kept an eye on the temp always and when needed i switch the aircon on. This way the fans start at low speed. At least i have fans.
So i went on and ordered a thermostat as discussed with Roy.
The new thermostat came a few days ago. (Gates)
I replaced it and took it for a “hot” ride. Came back and the gauge was sitting just before the red block. I parked and let the engine running.
The fans started to cut in and out for some time - low speed only - while the gauge slowly but steady was deeping more and more inside the “reds”…. !!! (why cut out though since the temp was not dropping???)
When it reached the middle of the red block i started to worry too much, i switched on the air con, opened the hood and i heard water bubbling from the tank but also from the engine block as well.
I immediately switched off the engine, turned the key so i have power and let the air con on so the fans keep spinning. It took quite a while for things to cool down …
I am not happy and i can’t understand. Tomorrow i am taking her to the mechanic. He is not a renault specialist but he seems experienced.
So far i have replaced the two sensors at the thermostat housing, the thermostat and i also have a new fan switch waiting to replace the old. (https://www.autodoc.co.uk/fae/2495721) I was unable to do this myself.
But i am thinking, what could be wrong here? If the problem is the switch then why is it giving the command to start? Is it just going “crazy”?
What about the bubbling? should such thing happen? Do i have an air leak?
Shall i tell them (the mechanics) anything specific to watch out for?
cheers all once more :)
Pan
It has been a few weeks that the situation changed. No matter how hot is the engine when i park, the fans never cut in after i switch the engine off. This is not good i guess. So i kept an eye on the temp always and when needed i switch the aircon on. This way the fans start at low speed. At least i have fans.
So i went on and ordered a thermostat as discussed with Roy.
The new thermostat came a few days ago. (Gates)
I replaced it and took it for a “hot” ride. Came back and the gauge was sitting just before the red block. I parked and let the engine running.
The fans started to cut in and out for some time - low speed only - while the gauge slowly but steady was deeping more and more inside the “reds”…. !!! (why cut out though since the temp was not dropping???)
When it reached the middle of the red block i started to worry too much, i switched on the air con, opened the hood and i heard water bubbling from the tank but also from the engine block as well.
I immediately switched off the engine, turned the key so i have power and let the air con on so the fans keep spinning. It took quite a while for things to cool down …
I am not happy and i can’t understand. Tomorrow i am taking her to the mechanic. He is not a renault specialist but he seems experienced.
So far i have replaced the two sensors at the thermostat housing, the thermostat and i also have a new fan switch waiting to replace the old. (https://www.autodoc.co.uk/fae/2495721) I was unable to do this myself.
But i am thinking, what could be wrong here? If the problem is the switch then why is it giving the command to start? Is it just going “crazy”?
What about the bubbling? should such thing happen? Do i have an air leak?
Shall i tell them (the mechanics) anything specific to watch out for?
cheers all once more :)
Pan
It sounds like you have a leak somewhere. This is critical, especially when the engine is idling since at low engine speeds the flow of water inside the engine reduces due to the water pump running more slowly. In a well maintained cooling system heating causes a pressure build up in the system, but no boiling. If there is a leak, however, the pressure will not be able to increase and the water will therefore start boiling when the temperature locally reaches 100 deg C inside the cylinder head. The fan switch could be defective, but could also be running in hot steam, not water, and therefore might not activate the fans correctly.
Look for leaks of water on the ground.
An experienced mechanic should be able to find and correct the problem, which is critical to fix as it may end up ruining your engine.
Best,
Anders
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: pduke on August 19, 2020, 09:52:55 am
It sounds like you have a leak somewhere. This is critical, especially when the engine is idling since at low engine speeds the flow of water inside the engine reduces due to the water pump running more slowly. In a well maintained cooling system heating causes a pressure build up in the system, but no boiling. If there is a leak, however, the pressure will not be able to increase and the water will therefore start boiling when the temperature locally reaches 100 deg C inside the cylinder head. The fan switch could be defective, but could also be running in hot steam, not water, and therefore might not activate the fans correctly.
I have experienced such behavior before. I am not sure it was under the exact same conditions, but at that time i had to replace the tank cap and everything went back to normal.
The thing is, how safe is it to peak the temps in order to find out if the boiling is fixed? Cause there is no boiling before reaching middle reds on the gauge.
Quote
Look for leaks of water on the ground.
An experienced mechanic should be able to find and correct the problem, which is critical to fix as it may end up ruining your engine.
I couldn't spot any, plus the tank keeps the same level. I will reattach the hose where i replaced the thermostat. I think i can push it a few more mm. The leak could be only when the pressure is high
(by the way my appointment was postponed.... :-[)
Pan
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 19, 2020, 02:26:08 pm
I have experienced such behavior before. I am not sure it was under the exact same conditions, but at that time i had to replace the tank cap and everything went back to normal.
The thing is, how safe is it to peak the temps in order to find out if the boiling is fixed? Cause there is no boiling before reaching middle reds on the gauge.
Look for leaks of water on the ground.
I couldn't spot any, plus the tank keeps the same level. I will reattach the hose where i replaced the thermostat. I think i can push it a few more mm. The leak could be only when the pressure is high
The thing is, how safe is it to peak the temps in order to find out if the boiling is fixed? Cause there is no boiling before reaching middle reds on the gauge.
Quote
Look for leaks of water on the ground.
I couldn't spot any, plus the tank keeps the same level. I will reattach the hose where i replaced the thermostat. I think i can push it a few more mm. The leak could be only when the pressure is high
Sounds good that it keeps the same level. Is it really exactly the same?
How about checking the tank cap again? Also, every hose connection, and hose checking for leaks. The radiator fan switch should be replaced, of course. In case the fan runs are driven by the swich through a relay (I don't remember), replacing the relay might also be a good idea.
/Anders
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: pduke on August 19, 2020, 02:51:16 pm
Sounds good that it keeps the same level. Is it really exactly the same?
naaaaah... i was so sure but.... naaah
I took out the hose, pushed the thermostat deeper and tightened it more securely, all the way.
Went for a small drive. Came back to find the valve at the top of the hose leaking....
I used teflon to tight it (don't know if it is a good idea). It seemed tight as should.
Filled the tank with cooling liquid.
I started the engine and wait long enought to reach high temps
- First time the fan cut in much earlier than other times when the gauge was enetering the last white block (so seemed to work much better ....(???))
- temps kept going up
- Fans cut in and out throught out the proccess.
- i didn't push it hard but it managed to keep the gauge just before the reds.
But there! i got the bubbles again. Much less but there.
So it seems i have a hiss from the thermostat housing area, high likely it is this freaking plastic valve ...
and another hiss from the tank cap (i think...)
There is no liquid going out from either, rather than air coming out, or could be steam(??) but no visual to justify such assumption.
Quote
How about checking the tank cap again? Also, every hose connection, and hose checking for leaks. The radiator fan switch should be replaced, of course. In case the fan runs are driven by the swich through a relay (I don't remember), replacing the relay might also be a good idea.
How do i check the tank cap? I mean, how do i now that it's valve is working like it should. Could the hiss i heard be a bad sign or a sign of normal operation? Like, this is what the tank cap valve does, deflates (??) the system when in pressure ??
As a coclusion so far, the cooling system seems highly unstable... everytime is a new adventure! Everything works as NOT expected....
I will replace the hose with one cheap i have without a valve. This should at least help me to undestand if the problem is elsewhere.
Pan
(http://i.imgur.com/5eEXkT0h.jpg) (https://imgur.com/5eEXkT0)
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 19, 2020, 04:19:06 pm
Sounds like you're one the right path!
I don't think there's a way except visually. The tank cap It is supposed to keep the coolant system sealed off completely - until the pressure reaches a certain point by which it will vent out air. So it's essentially a valve.
I think it's a good idea to replace the hose with the screw valve. I would use silicone grease to seal off the value.
Remember: Only fix one thing at a time! And then test and see if it changes anything.
Best,
Anders
Quote
How do i check the tank cap?
I don't think there's a way except visually. The tank cap It is supposed to keep the coolant system sealed off completely - until the pressure reaches a certain point by which it will vent out air. So it's essentially a valve.
I think it's a good idea to replace the hose with the screw valve. I would use silicone grease to seal off the value.
Remember: Only fix one thing at a time! And then test and see if it changes anything.
Best,
Anders
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: pduke on August 20, 2020, 03:13:54 pm
I think it's a good idea to replace the hose with the screw valve. I would use silicone grease to seal off the value.
This is a much better idea!! Since the original hose is much better made. I thought it couldn't be sealed so thank you for the tip!!
So i have :
- A PTFE white grease spray by Morris. High temp 160C.
- High temp silicon sealant. up to 1250 Celcious. The black one.
i will try the first one and if it doesn't do the job i will seal it with the black silicon.
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 20, 2020, 05:59:03 pm
I think it's a good idea to replace the hose with the screw valve. I would use silicone grease to seal off the value.
This is a much better idea!! Since the original hose is much better made. I thought it couldn't be sealed so thank you for the tip!!
So i have :
- A PTFE white grease spray by Morris. High temp 160C.
- High temp silicon sealant. up to 1250 Celcious. The black one.
i will try the first one and if it doesn't do the job i will seal it with the black silicon.
I think it's a good idea to replace the hose with the screw valve. I would use silicone grease to seal off the value.
This is a much better idea!! Since the original hose is much better made. I thought it couldn't be sealed so thank you for the tip!!
So i have :
- A PTFE white grease spray by Morris. High temp 160C.
- High temp silicon sealant. up to 1250 Celcious. The black one.
i will try the first one and if it doesn't do the job i will seal it with the black silicon.
I was thinking about clear silicone grease that doesn't dry up. On second thought, be careful that the grease doens't make it into the cooling system.
Could there be a crack in the rubber?
If you can find a new or good used original hose that would be best.
/Anders
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: mhi on August 20, 2020, 11:26:55 pm
That valve is a bleed point for filling the cooling system. It might be leaking because a tiny bit of dirt has got into it; and I'd try (first time) wipe clean and then seal it with PTFE (plumber's, Teflon) tape. That may be what you have done. Don't seal it up with a permanent silicone sealant.
The leak's probably allowed air to be sucked into the cooling system, and the resulting bubbles and airlocks might be affecting the water flow and confusing the thermostat, various temperature sensors and switches even after the leak itself is fixed. This thread's been there already!
The other place my J63 once suffered a slow leak was where the pipes connect to the heater matrix, in the cabin rather than in the engine compartment. The main symptom of that is a patch of damp carpet in the right-hand foot well, and that only shows up in colder weather. I trusted the dismal Haynes manual about that, and spent a whole weekend replacing the heater matrix -- a long job for my right-hand-drive model, because the steering column gets in the way. That was useless: the parts which were leaking were two O rings in the connecting joint.
If you have this leak, reply and I'll try to describe how to replace the O rings. It takes about 30 minutes, and parts cost next to nothing. It was years ago so I'll have to renew my memory by touch.
- Mark
The leak's probably allowed air to be sucked into the cooling system, and the resulting bubbles and airlocks might be affecting the water flow and confusing the thermostat, various temperature sensors and switches even after the leak itself is fixed. This thread's been there already!
The other place my J63 once suffered a slow leak was where the pipes connect to the heater matrix, in the cabin rather than in the engine compartment. The main symptom of that is a patch of damp carpet in the right-hand foot well, and that only shows up in colder weather. I trusted the dismal Haynes manual about that, and spent a whole weekend replacing the heater matrix -- a long job for my right-hand-drive model, because the steering column gets in the way. That was useless: the parts which were leaking were two O rings in the connecting joint.
If you have this leak, reply and I'll try to describe how to replace the O rings. It takes about 30 minutes, and parts cost next to nothing. It was years ago so I'll have to renew my memory by touch.
- Mark
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: pduke on August 23, 2020, 12:59:34 am
I was thinking about clear silicone grease that doesn't dry up. On second thought, be careful that the grease doens't make it into the cooling system.
That valve is a bleed point for filling the cooling system. It might be leaking because a tiny bit of dirt has got into it; and I'd try (first time) wipe clean and then seal it with PTFE (plumber's, Teflon) tape. That may be what you have done. Don't seal it up with a permanent silicone sealant.
The leak's probably allowed air to be sucked into the cooling system, and the resulting bubbles and airlocks might be affecting the water flow and confusing the thermostat, various temperature sensors and switches even after the leak itself is fixed. This thread's been there already!
The leak's probably allowed air to be sucked into the cooling system, and the resulting bubbles and airlocks might be affecting the water flow and confusing the thermostat, various temperature sensors and switches even after the leak itself is fixed. This thread's been there already!
You are right, after all the leaks and the final teflon appliance, it seems that the temps are a bit better. Still no high speed fan. I start to believe that the last mechanic that replaced the switch 5 years ago may have used the single speed one intended for vehicles without air condition.
The other place my J63 once suffered a slow leak was where the pipes connect to the heater matrix, in the cabin rather than in the engine compartment. The main symptom of that is a patch of damp carpet in the right-hand foot well, and that only shows up in colder weather. I trusted the dismal Haynes manual about that, and spent a whole weekend replacing the heater matrix -- a long job for my right-hand-drive model, because the steering column gets in the way. That was useless: the parts which were leaking were two O rings in the connecting joint.
If you have this leak, reply and I'll try to describe how to replace the O rings. It takes about 30 minutes, and parts cost next to nothing. It was years ago so I'll have to renew my memory by touch.
- Mark
Well we are getting in a bigger conversation here ... Unfortunatelly i have no heater connected. No hot air inthe cabin. 5years ago we were playing in Poland. In a jam in the highway the engine got too hot (unfortunatelly i was asleep) and the heater blew off... Coolant all over the cabin... Nasty situation. So we disconnected the hose that comes from the heater and we twisted the second in the place of the first one so we have circulation of the coolant.If you have this leak, reply and I'll try to describe how to replace the O rings. It takes about 30 minutes, and parts cost next to nothing. It was years ago so I'll have to renew my memory by touch.
- Mark
So this Espace has a history of high temps. The switch was replaced just before that trip. But i can't recall fan speeds.
Probably the new switch will give the solution i am waiting for.
Thank you both so very much for your help :)
i will be reporting.
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: roy4matra on August 26, 2020, 08:29:26 pm
Update:
I replaced it and took it for a “hot” ride. Came back and the gauge was sitting just before the red block.
I replaced it and took it for a “hot” ride. Came back and the gauge was sitting just before the red block.
To me, that statement tells me something is wrong anyway because in all my driving, including towing and over the Alps, my temperature gauge never got near the red sector! In your posting 22nd June with annotated photo, my cars were always in sector 3 white zone and rarely ever got into sector 4 and certainly nowhere near the red sector.
So it sounds like yours is running too hot anyway.
In another post (Aug 18th) you said this:
'high likely it is this freaking plastic valve ...'
I have proper brass bleed screws that are a straight swap for those horrible plastic ones. And you shouldn't need any Teflon or other sealant as these use a rubber 'O' ring under the head of the bleed screw (both types). Check if your plastic screw has the 'O' ring, though as they don't come with the brass screw. If you want one, they are just over £10 plus extra if you need a new 'O' ring, plus postage.
And the recent posting (Aug 20th) has this:
'Still no high speed fan. I start to believe that the last mechanic that replaced the switch 5 years ago may have used the single speed one intended for vehicles without air condition.'
This is really easy to check. The single stage switch for cars without air con. only have two terminals (and is cheap) whilst the two stage switch for cars with air con. have three wires and these are already attached to the switch, so the switch comes as standard with a short bit of loom and a plug on the end, which plugs in to a socket on the engine loom. You must have this switch for a car with air con. to work correctly.
Roy
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: pduke on September 01, 2020, 04:01:11 pm
To me, that statement tells me something is wrong anyway because in all my driving, including towing and over the Alps, my temperature gauge never got near the red sector! In your posting 22nd June with annotated photo, my cars were always in sector 3 white zone and rarely ever got into sector 4 and certainly nowhere near the red sector.
So it sounds like yours is running too hot anyway.
After i secured the bleeding screw with teflon my temps look better. While driving on the highway i am in the 3rd sector. If i push it though(above 4000rpm) for a a bit it starts reaching the 4th. But hte main problem is when idling in hot days. It is better now but still it is flirting with the reds...
Of course securing the bleeding screw doesn't mean that i fixed it. There could still be a minimum loss of pressure on high temps.
Still i am worried if the problem is inthe head or generally from the engine and not the cooling system.
As a general knowledge i know that the engine temps should be stable. Not vary too much cause that is bad for the engine metal parts etc.
In another post (Aug 18th) you said this:
'high likely it is this freaking plastic valve ...'
I have proper brass bleed screws that are a straight swap for those horrible plastic ones. And you shouldn't need any Teflon or other sealant as these use a rubber 'O' ring under the head of the bleed screw (both types). Check if your plastic screw has the 'O' ring, though as they don't come with the brass screw. If you want one, they are just over £10 plus extra if you need a new 'O' ring, plus postage.
That is good to know. I am still waiting my mechanic for an appointment... As soon as i have that - and his opinion on what is going on in this car - if i need the screws i ll pm you so we can arrange a postage.
And the recent posting (Aug 20th) has this:
'Still no high speed fan. I start to believe that the last mechanic that replaced the switch 5 years ago may have used the single speed one intended for vehicles without air condition.'
This is really easy to check. The single stage switch for cars without air con. only have two terminals (and is cheap) whilst the two stage switch for cars with air con. have three wires and these are already attached to the switch, so the switch comes as standard with a short bit of loom and a plug on the end, which plugs in to a socket on the engine loom. You must have this switch for a car with air con. to work correctly.
Here is a picture from the two sockets. I suppose having 3 terminals means i have the correct one. Still, is there a way to check if the fast speed works? Earth something? wire something? ... ::)
(http://i.imgur.com/EUddF7il.jpg) (https://imgur.com/EUddF7i)
cheers Roy
Pan
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: roy4matra on September 03, 2020, 07:09:07 pm
Here is a picture from the two sockets. I suppose having 3 terminals means i have the correct one. Still, is there a way to check if the fast speed works? Earth something? wire something? ... ::)
(http://i.imgur.com/EUddF7il.jpg) (https://imgur.com/EUddF7i)
cheers Roy
Pan
Yes it would appear to be the three wire switch. To check, one of the outside wires should be positive with 12 volts+ and the other two feed relays. One feed (I think the other outer wire) is for both fans half speed and the middle wire will activate the relays such that both fans come on at high speed. (but it could be the other way around)
So find which is 'A' the outer wire with battery voltage, it might be this only gets a feed when the engine is running so if you don't get a voltage on any of the three connections that will be why.
The other outer wire is classed as 'B' and the centre one is 'C'. If you pass a voltage down either B or C the fans should operate as low or high speed.
Roy
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: pduke on September 04, 2020, 07:01:19 pm
yesterday i got a call and arranged the appointment with the mechanic. Just got the car back.
and the odyssey continues ....
Now it seems i have a changed behaviour.
I went for a ride, all good in terms of temps, return and let idle.
Gauge goes up naturally, no fans.
reaches the red zone, and immediatelly full speed cuts in!! The tornado!
and then half speed for a few seconds, i am still not sure this wasn't just the ease off.
then stops.
and then the same over and over again.
Nothing bubbles but everything is freaking hot in the engine compartment.
At least it managed to keep the gauge at the same place. Start of reds. But it couldn't bring it down from there. And today was a cool day with 29 degrees.
The mechanic told me to replace the Colorstat sensor for the gauge.
I have my doubts, but on the other hand i am out of ideas. A 25 minute ride reaching 160km/h and the gauge reached the middle of the 3rd sector. This seems like a nice working sensor to me. I mean, except if a sensor loses track after a certain amount of heat. I don't know. :'(
Oh well, at least i know full speed is working and probably the engine wont blow if i forget to check the gauge.
I am certainly going to scare people in a traffic light though, when this tornado kicks in! ;D
cheers all,
Pan
and the odyssey continues ....
Now it seems i have a changed behaviour.
I went for a ride, all good in terms of temps, return and let idle.
Gauge goes up naturally, no fans.
reaches the red zone, and immediatelly full speed cuts in!! The tornado!
and then half speed for a few seconds, i am still not sure this wasn't just the ease off.
then stops.
and then the same over and over again.
Nothing bubbles but everything is freaking hot in the engine compartment.
At least it managed to keep the gauge at the same place. Start of reds. But it couldn't bring it down from there. And today was a cool day with 29 degrees.
The mechanic told me to replace the Colorstat sensor for the gauge.
I have my doubts, but on the other hand i am out of ideas. A 25 minute ride reaching 160km/h and the gauge reached the middle of the 3rd sector. This seems like a nice working sensor to me. I mean, except if a sensor loses track after a certain amount of heat. I don't know. :'(
Oh well, at least i know full speed is working and probably the engine wont blow if i forget to check the gauge.
I am certainly going to scare people in a traffic light though, when this tornado kicks in! ;D
cheers all,
Pan
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: Anders Dinsen on September 05, 2020, 07:54:24 am
Quote
Nothing bubbles but everything is freaking hot in the engine compartment.
It sounds like you have air trapped in the system. Try bleeding it.
/Anders
Title: Re: j63 2.2i petrol // Draining the cooling system
Post by: pduke on September 09, 2020, 11:05:51 am
Quote
Nothing bubbles but everything is freaking hot in the engine compartment.
It sounds like you have air trapped in the system. Try bleeding it.
/Anders
So, Roy i sent you a pm for those copper ones you have. Please confirm that you got my message cause my outbox is always empty.(seems like a forum software problem(?))
