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roy4matra
YaBB God
Posts: 1199
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« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2007, 01:02:16 am » |
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... It seems a bit strange as I thought that the Heater System was separate for the Driver and Passenger sides, but both seem not to be working.
The heating system is separate in so far as there are two heater matricies - one either side and the passenger can override the drivers/master control settings to some extent. However, the coolant flow through both matricies comes from, and returns to the engine through the same hoses. They have tee junctions to take the coolant to and from each matrix. So if both matrix could not provide any heat, it suggests there was no flow from the engine or the return was blocked. Easiest thing to check is the pipes/hoses under the bonnet, going to the matricies. When the engine is hot, these heater pipes/hoses should also be hot. Check them by hand - they should all be the same. If they are not, then either the flow is blocked or there is insufficient coolant to flow through them. Since the matricies are the highest point in the cooling system, you could have enough coolant for engine cooling but air near the top giving poor heating. Diesels, particularly the common rail diesels, take a long while to start heating the interior since they use their own heat to run. This was why Renault added the additional coolant heating systems (glow-plugs in the coolant jacket and the 'night heater' down in the front left corner). These are to help provide heat inside more quickly. If it was a cold day, these should have been activated until the engine warmed sufficiently. However, a run of 500 miles would be much more than enough to have given reasonable heating inside, so I think you need to check those pipes/hoses first. Roy
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ross
Full Member
Posts: 98
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« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2007, 08:46:14 pm » |
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once again, many thanks for your reply to my cry for help Roy.
Since first posting the appeal for help I have twice checked the system.
The first time I couldn't remove the Radiator, due to insufficient clearance between the intecooler mainifold pipe, so I flushed the system, as best I could with a hose, and put it all back together and refilled it with the inclusion of some RAD-FLUSH.
After a week of running around locally with the RAD-FLUSH in the system I once again took the system apart and flushed it out with a hose, and also checked the operation of the thermostat, which was fine.
This time I was able to remove the intercooler manifold pipe, so I could remove the radiator and flush it through, again with a hose.
The reason I thought I needed to remove the radiator to flush it is, the hose connections are both at the top of the radiator, so I needed to invert it to get the sediment to run out.
I again flushed the system, this time through the header tank, and the water runs out clean.
With the system all reconnected I refilled the system, using a large diameter length of tube attached to the header tank inlet , to give a head of water, and then I opened the bleed valves, starting with the heater ones, and working forward to the radiator.
The system seems to work fine, with the exception of warm air from the vents.
I can feel warmth from all the heater pipework, right up to the matirix's under the dash where they dissappear into the boxes, but still there is no warm air from the vents.
It is most frustrating !
Is it possible that there is air entrapped within the heater matrix's that will not come out under normal bleeding, but needs additional pressure applied ?
Any suggestions gratefully received.
Regards
Ross
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2005 Grande Espace 2.2DCi 1994 2.1Td Espace 2005 Kangoo 1.2 1977 Renault 16TL 1974 Renault 16TX
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roy4matra
YaBB God
Posts: 1199
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« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2007, 02:16:52 pm » |
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I can feel warmth from all the heater pipework, right up to the matirix's under the dash where they dissappear into the boxes, but still there is no warm air from the vents.
It is most frustrating !
Is it possible that there is air entrapped within the heater matrix's that will not come out under normal bleeding, but needs additional pressure applied ?
No Ross, it's unlikely it's anything to do with the coolant side, now you have pointed out that the cooling system has been flushed and you have hot water up to the matricies. This was obviously the first thing that needed to be verified, but now that you have, it sounds like the flaps are not working correctly. Modern heating systems have hot coolant passing through the matrix all the time and heat regulation to the cabin is done by altering the airflow path. Old systems simply shut off the coolant from the matrix to give cool air inside (which was still passing through the matrix, but since it had no coolant going through it, it was cold). Modern systems alter the positions of the flaps to route the air either fully through the matrix for hot, or by-passing the matrix for cold, or blending part hot and cold for anything in between. So it sounds like your flaps are in the cool or cold position and not functioning. You are going to have to check out whether this is a mechanical problem (flap or control broken or jammed) or electrical (signal to the control not correct). I suspect you have an electrical control or signal fault. Roy
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ross
Full Member
Posts: 98
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« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2007, 08:24:28 pm » |
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Hi Roy,
I was beginning to think along the same lines as yourself, as it seemed unlikely that both matrix's would be blocked.
I have been looking through the online Espace manual but there seems to be little or nothing to help me find the source of any contol flap problem.
It would need to be in a part of the ducting that is common to both sides of the car, as both the driver and passenger controls do not give any warm air.
I will stick my head under the dash as soon as I get a spare minute, but with a childrens' birthday weekend approaching, and a new kitchen to finish off fitting, it might be a little while before I can do it.
Many thanks for your help and interest.
P.S. my central locking problem is still with me, but I have seen a few newish Espaces for spares on Ebay; if I got hold of a set of bits for the central locking system, ie, matching computer, dashboard and keys, do you think I can do a complete swap to get it to work ?
Regards
Ross
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2005 Grande Espace 2.2DCi 1994 2.1Td Espace 2005 Kangoo 1.2 1977 Renault 16TL 1974 Renault 16TX
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ross
Full Member
Posts: 98
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« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2007, 06:37:03 pm » |
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Gentlemen,
I have now used the instructions, provided by Roa, for which many thanks, and the heating and ventilation computer checked out OK.
I am very nearly certain that both of the heater matrix's are blocked, and that the hot water is only passing through the header of each matrix.
I am led top believe that the task of replacing the heater matrix is not for the faint hearted.
Has anyone undertaken this task ?, if so, are there any hints or instructions I can follow, when I can find the time to tackle it.
I am of a mind to take the engine out in order to gain access to the heater pipe connections at the back of the engine compartment.
Many thanks for the help so far.
Regards
Ross
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2005 Grande Espace 2.2DCi 1994 2.1Td Espace 2005 Kangoo 1.2 1977 Renault 16TL 1974 Renault 16TX
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roa
Jr. Member
Posts: 30
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« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2007, 10:28:52 am » |
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Removing heater matrix's is a large job indeed. Renault shops calculate approx betwwen 4 and 7 hours for changing one matrix, depending on which type you have(sealed or replaceable ). You'll have to remove most of the dash-fascia on both sides to get to either one, so it makes sense to replace both anyway, when first diassembling. When the fascia is removed, the steel-beam, on which the whole dash is attached, has to be loosened, and pulled back 5 to 10 cm's, to gain access to the pipes. The Matrixes are then removed sideways, through the doors. See some pictures here: http://je.espace-freunde.de/jeinfo/espace98/2002.11.10.wasser.im.fussraum/inhalt.html-This description is based on reading only - I've NOT done this job myself...... Good luck!
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roy4matra
YaBB God
Posts: 1199
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« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2007, 01:56:20 am » |
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Gentlemen,
I have now used the instructions, provided by Roa, for which many thanks, and the heating and ventilation computer checked out OK.
I am very nearly certain that both of the heater matrix's are blocked, and that the hot water is only passing through the header of each matrix.
I am led top believe that the task of replacing the heater matrix is not for the faint hearted.
If indeed your matrix are blocked and need replacing, you have a problem. You need to strip the dash and pull the whole assembly back and there is a special tool for this as you slide the dash back and up along the rods of the tool, to gain access. This is not really a DIY job. Has anyone undertaken this task?
Yes, which is why I say it is not a DIY job. Without the special tools it will be extremely difficult if not impossible, and you would be likely to damage something. It is a horrible job even with the tools! I am of a mind to take the engine out in order to gain access to the heater pipe connections at the back of the engine compartment.
That is overkill (removing engine) and not necessary really, but that still won't help with the major work inside the vehicle. Also do you realise how much work is involved removing the engine? Roy
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ross
Full Member
Posts: 98
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« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2008, 09:28:06 pm » |
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Many thanks for your insructions, renaultbiler, which I will keep handy for when I get the time to tackle the job. I am waiting for better weather, as I have to work out in the open, as my garage is too small for my Espace. the weather here is not quite as severe as in Norway, but we still miss the heater. Has anyone ever thought of cutting through the heater box, to enable the matrix to be pulled out towards the seats, after releasing the header screws or the pipes ? Is the matrix just pushed into the heater box or is it held in by any screws ? I have thought that with a jig-saw it might be possible to cut a slot, the width of the matrix, which would allow the matrix to be extracted into the footwell. When the new matrix has been installed the cutout in the heater box can be sealed up with the flap that was removed, or some strong black tape, as it is only warm air inside the box. Does anyone have any views on my cunning plan ? Regards Ross
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2005 Grande Espace 2.2DCi 1994 2.1Td Espace 2005 Kangoo 1.2 1977 Renault 16TL 1974 Renault 16TX
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