MatraSport Forum

Hi guys,

I was going to fix "that scratching sound from the rear" before taking the car in to deal with the other problems. I got the rewinding tool for the rear brake pistons, but they told me that there's two different pads.
Back in the bat-cave I'm now looking at Euro Car Parts' website and there is indeed two different kits.
This is what I found for the disks:
------
ATE     n/a     104745370     BRAKE DISC REAR ESPACE 96- AVANTIME
Rear Disc       £28.60    
EICHER    n/a    104745371    BRAKE DISC REAR ESPACE 96- AVANTIME
Rear Disc       £19.95
------

And for the rear pads I got this:
------
JURID OEM     n/a     101440190     REAR BRAKE PADS (15.2MM) GO/JE/VE/SC/CO/PA 83-
      £20.35    
EICHER    n/a    101440191    REAR BRAKE PADS GO/JE/VE/SC/CO/PA 83-
      £11.45    
FERODO    n/a    101440192    REAR BRAKE PADS GO/JE/VE/SC/CO/PA 83-
      £15.44    
ATE    n/a    101440195    REAR BRAKE PADS GO/JE/VE/SC/CO/PA 83-
      £14.90    
JURID    n/a    101745580    REAR PADS REAR PADS
      £26.51    
S/S TO 101    n/a    101745581    S/S TO 101745371 S/S TO 101745371
      £28.99    
FERODO    n/a    101745582    FERODO BRAKE PAD SET FERODO BRAKE PAD SET
      £26.51    
ATE    n/a    101745585    S/S 101745375 S/S 101745375
      £24.00
----------

I had the wheel off yesterday, and the disc diameter is 265mm or thereabouts. The thicknes was down to almost 10.4mm. But how do I recognise what's on the car, and which one of those I need to order..?  ??? ???

The whole thing was just rusted and seized... I can see myself sitting there over the weekend with a wire brush and loads of grease and cleaning rags...

In most cases Euro Car Parts offer the option of parts from OEM suppliers and "Will Fit" parts from other manufacturers at lower prices.
Both fit and do a job but you have the option to go for quality or price.

ATE are OEM suppliers to the likes of BMW. The ATE disks and pads I got from Euro Car Parts for my 5 Series are identical to those from BMW... except half the price and have proved to be 1st class.

I therefore also got the ATE rear disks for my Grand Espace from Euro Car Parts and would have got ATE pads had they had them in stock at the time but got Textar instead which are also German made.

Usually using Euro Car Parts drill-down menu helps you get to a list of components all of which fit that make, model, variant and year vehicle but sometimes vehicle manufacturers switch suppliers of bought-in components such as brake calipers mid-production based on price/availability... or both... and that can lead to confusion with different pads being fitted to the same model of car produced within the same year of manufacture so you sometimes need the VIN to ensure you get the correct part.
If there is any doubt give them a call instead of ordering on line and quote your vehicle VIN number and registration number. They have cross reference information that will pin-point the correct part for your particular vehicle.
The added benefit if you've checked with them first and the parts turn out to be wrong when they arrive then you at least have the come-back on them rather than being stuck with parts that don't fit.

From that list of pads I would go for either the Jurid (that are original equipment on many Espaces) or ATE... but that's just my opinion from my experiences for what it's worth.

Martin

p.s. If you're ordering from Euro Car Parts for delivery to home rather than collecting from a local branch then you get free delivery only when ordering on-line. So if you are in doubt as to which pads you require then the tip is to call them, get them to check which pads are suitable for your particular VIN, take the guy's name, thank him very much and then order on-line rather than by phone which would incur a delivery charge

Thanks, once again, Martin!  8)  8) Got them ordered, some £85 delivered (including free postage from over-the-phone-order).
I'll try to take some pics and post them when I'm doing the work.

Well done for getting them carriage-free from a phone order  ;D

For further info based on my past experiences.

• The piston wind-back is clockwise
• There's no need to open the bleed nipples to wind back the pistons but if you leave them closed to avoid the need for bleeding afterwards then don't forget to syphon off some brakle fluid from the master cylinder or allow for spillage as you push in the pistons and wash it off quickly afterwards
• I use BMW Plastilube (sachets of synthetic grease) instead of copper grease to lube and protect moving parts on the calipers as I find that it lasts between pad changes and is more tolerant to high temperatures than even HT Copper Grease
• If they are the same as the ones I got then the pads will have a 3M backing as an anti-rattle measure so no need to Plastilube or copper grease the back of the pad ~ just peel off the backing paper
• The disks will have a thin film of anti-corrosion coating on them so make sure you clean them with methylated spirits or similar de-greasing agent before the pads are allowed in contact with them
• You may not want to bother doing this but I cleaned the anti-corrosion film off only the non-friction and non-mating surfaces and then spray painted the disks with Plasti-kote barbeque paint from B&Q. As you've found from your exploratory look, brake parts get hit hard with rust due to the exposed location and the heat so I used the high temperature paint (heat resistant up to 425 celcius) to help give them a bit of protection. Leaving the anti-corrosion film on the friction surfaces lets you more easily scrape off any over-spray before cleaning with meths

Hope that helps and sorry if it's preaching to a seasoned DIY mechanic.

Martin

It does indeed help! :) I'm not "seasoned" but I do know my way across, nevertheless I can still do with a reminder and a few tips. I was thinking of painting the disks, but was going to skip it, but depending on when I get the disks and how much time I have, I might just go ahead and do it now. Bright red anyone..?!  :D  ;)

I've also got a few bits I should pick up from the BMW garage for the bike, so I might ask for the Plastilube.  :)

A related question; What's the best way to jack up and "axle-stand" the rear of the car? I found a spot just in front of the rear wheel where I used a trolley jack, but then I didn't find any good spot to stick the axles stands at the rear. It's way over 50cm to the ground behind the axle when the car is jacked up. I'm thinking I have to jack the car up further forward and use the spot I used to jack it up for the axle stand... Anyone got any good tips on this?  ???

Each to their own  ;)

The BBQ paint from B&Q is only available in black  ::) and is touch dry in 20 minutes and fully dry in 2-3 hours.

If you do try Plastilube I'd suggest getting 5 or 6 sachets.... it won't go off if you don't use it all this time and as it comes in foil sachets you can fold the top over on any part-used sachet and save for next time.

Regarding the axle stand points ~ I remember seeing a diagram of the rear chassis support points in the old Renault Dialogys software I have..... trouble is it needs ancient versions of Java, Quicktime and Acrobat to run properly and my kids were home from university at Easter, screwed around with the PC that I had it on and I haven't been able to run it since. If I get time to get it running again then I'll post a PDF of the location for front and rear chassis support stands for you

Martin

Don't worry too much about that Martin, I'm sure I can prop "Ol' Bertha" up somehow.
I was going to get "£5 or so, worth of Plastilube" if I get around there.
I know you can get exhaust paint in a bunch of colours, but I think black is a winner actually. I'm sure the BBQ paint is cheaper too!  ::)

Thanks once again, Martin.  :)

Got the disks and pads today and as the weather is nice and dry I took the bike for a spin to the BMW dealer and got some lubrication  ::) :o :-* :-\ It's Würth saBesto Brake Paste, comes in a sachet that looks like a wet-wipe. 5.5g, bargain at £1.00 + VAT  :o
I also got some Red exhaust paint,.. I couldn't resist it, I'm sure it's going to annoy some boy-racer...  :D ;D ;D 8)
Let's see if I can find some time to wash and paint the disks soon. :)

I SURE hope you are going to paint the calipers - not the discs 8)

no no.... the disks...  :D :D but not the friction area.  8) It's a first for me too, but as the car stands so much, and I saw the state of my current disks, I want to prevent some corrosion. Let's hope this works. :)

OMG, this isn't red, it's more red-orange. HAHAHAHA! This will look funny.  ;D ;D

:D - why not paint the whole car that colour? 8)

HELP!

I'm doing something wrong as I can't get the caliper onto the pads/disk. :(
I've rewound the piston several revolutions clockwise, and it doesn't seem to do anything..?!  ??? ???
I also tried to make a 'piston-pusher-tool' out of a thick piece of metal and an M10 bolt... but the metal got bent before it managed to push the piston back. :(

What's a guy to do..?  ???

Just pushing it back in will not work as it does with front brake pistons.
The rear brakes/pistons self compensate as the pads wear to take up the slack for the handbrake mechanism.
The pistons have therefore to be rotated whilst they are being pushed in. Thankfully it seems like your metal backing plate bent before something else gave way.
Are you sure that you've been sold the correct rewind tool?
Does it have pegs that locate into the corresponding recesses in the piston face?

Martin

I can twist the piston without any problems, but it doesn't seem to go any further in.  :(

What's the actual status of the piston? Has it retracted at all or is it just in the same position as when you disassembled the caliper?... or has it retracted so far but not quite far enough for you to be able to insert the new pads?
I have known for the thickness of aftermarket pads to be a little too generous when fitted along with new disks so that they are too tight to insert without the judicious application of a file or sandpaper

What type / make of rewind tool are you using? It has to be able to not only rotate the piston but also apply pressure to it at the same time. The reason I ask is that there are some on the market that are little more than keys that locate in to the pistion head to rotate it but rely upon you trying to apply the sufficient pressure at the same time as rotating.

Any chance of any pix of the piston/caliper and the rewind tool?

Martin

I don't know exactly how far in the piston is, as the old pads were in quite good order (apart from not using the whole disk). I think I've pushed it in a bit, but there's about two millimeters or so too much thickness in the pads/disk to make the caliper not slide on.

The tool I have is a Draper one, like this:
http://www.thedrapershop.co.uk/draper-38-square-drive-brake-caliper-wind-back-cube34-p-3466.html
I had to remove two teeth on one of the sides to make it fit. I can apply quite  a bit of pressure by just squeeizing my ratchet handle, but obviously not any type of super-mechanical pressure.

The attached pic isn't really good as the only thing I was aiming to document with this pic is the Würth lubrication. But you can see the piston a bit.
Maybe I just have to grind down the pads a bit..?!

That's the tool that I was wondering if you might have. The rewind tools used in garages are like the one on the following page of the draper shop but are obviously much more expensive than the one you have.

http://www.thedrapershop.co.uk/draper-draper-expert-piece-brake-caliper-wind-back-tool-p-2324.html

and they are used as in the attached picture (not an Espace just a picture I "borrowed") and apply direct pressure at the same time as rotating the piston.

It's a while since I did mine so can't remember whether my pistons retracted further than in your photo.
I guess that you have 3 options.
1) try the caliper on the other side to see if the piston retracts any further with your existing tool
2) borrow or buy a wind back tool like I've shown to find out if the piston will in fact retract any further (pity we are not a bit closer... I'm up in Yorkshire... as you could have borrowed my wind back kit)
3) take a millimeter or so off the friction material of each pad

See what you mean about the exhaust paint.... is it also available in bright colours?  ;) ;D

BTW the pads are not in contact with anywhere near the full width of friction area available on the disks on the JE rear brakes so no need to worry about that.

Martin

Martin, thanks very much for your insight and advice. Thanks to you I've now got new disks and pads on at the rear (front ones replaced about a year or so ago).
Sadly I wasn't even offered to buy one of those "proper" tools, so I simply got this one. I found a way to rewind the piston with this one, so I'll upload the pictures now. I don't know how many posts it'll take, but I'll start now (Might be interrupted by early dinner). :)

Thanks again! :)

Painting the disks. :) I wanted to paint them to buy me some time on the rust as the old disks were quite rusty. Red... because I can. Also pics of the Würth brake lubrication. £1 + VAT from your local BMW dealer.

More... :)

This is what I started out with. It's not as bad as it looks, and I could probably have gotten away with a simple clean up of the disks and new pads. New disks does feel better, though. :)

The biggest problem I had was, as you might have noticed, to wind back the brake pistons. The tool I have is a Draper cheap one, under £8. It didn't even fit. So I cut off two lugs on one of the sides that had 4. With that modification I was able to turn the piston, but not push it in. I tried several things, and I found that this double-screw-driver-set-up worked like a charm. I put the pad-holder on, then attached the sliding bolts to give me some leverage. The bottom screwdriver only keeps the sliding bolts from not sliding. The second screwdriver pushes the piston in, whilst I'm able to turn it clockwise. With about 1 turn or so, the piston is rewound. Easy when you know what to do.
Next pictures are:
- All off
- Disk on
- Pad holder on

Continuing on the theme:
- Another angle (top)
- All lubed up and rewound. The Würth lube is a nice silver colour.  8)
- Pads in place
- Caliper in place - Done, just need to put the wheel back on.

Finally a few pics of the red disk peeping through the spokes.  ::)

And a few tips; A dremel with a rotary wire brush cleans the brake parts quite nicely, I wish I would have realised/remembered that a bit earlier. To jack the car up, I used a normal garage jack, and an axle stand. I put a piece of wood just in front of the rear wheel, and lifted as far forward as I could, and then I put the axle stand as close to the jack as possible. For additional stability I didn't remove the jack, but kept it slightly "pressurised"

Also, I was annoyed at not figuring out the rewind thing before I was doing the second side, so for the first side I sanded down the pads a bit, which now are a bit wonky and aren't gripping the whole disk. And they're also dragging a bit (which will wear off obviously). Hopefully it won't wear down the disk in a bad manner. Ah well, you live and learn.

Huge thanks to Martin for all the answers!  8) 8)

Tomorrow the car goes in to look at why she's playing up, and hopefully the electrical problem too.  ::)