MatraSport Forum
Each model => Murena => Topic started by: LarsB on February 03, 2007, 04:52:35 pm
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Last night I orderd a complete megasquirt kit from www.DIYautotune.com
I am planing to install it in my murena, probably using the original intake manifold and some sort of TBI system.
Since I am also planning to use Ford EDIS system for ignition I will have to attach a missing tooth wheel to the crankshaft pulley
Pictures will come, as soon as the package arives. ;D
Lars
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Very interseting!
Hans
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Hi Lars
This is a project I have also considered, but have largely put in the bag again due to other things taking precedence.
I'll be very interested to hear about your results too. Even if it's a DIY project, MegaSquirt has a professional feature set, and as a software engineer, I like the openness of the software. Downside is that assembly quality is up to yourself and performance is limited by the 8 bit processor.
I have seen somewhere that a throttle body from a Porsche 924 should fit approximately on the standard 2.2 manifold. Drilling angled holes in the manifold for injectors and welding in injector housings should also be reasonably easy.
What kind of idle control are you planning to use?
Will you fit an oxygen sensor in the exhaust or run it in open-loop method?
Are you going to run a standard cam?
What kind of exhaust do you have on your car?
Best wishes,
Anders
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I have seen somewhere that a throttle body from a Porsche 924 should fit approximately on the standard 2.2 manifold. Drilling angled holes in the manifold for injectors and welding in injector housings should also be reasonably easy.
Thank you for this information, I will look in to it.
What kind of idle control are you planning to use?
I`m not quite sure yet, I was/is hoping to use some sort of stepper motor valve. BUT, I have heard rumors that that is not possible when using megasquirt to also controll ignition. I have yet to find conclusive facts of this.
Will you fit an oxygen sensor in the exhaust or run it in open-loop method?
I newer expected to find any maps for the N9 engine, so I orderd a widband O2 sensor, using this I can set a "target value" for A/F ratio. Hopefully this will make tuning less troublesome
Are you going to run a standard cam?
When I first bought my murena It was fittet with the complete S-kit, (cam,solex,lighter flywheel, different distributor, different exhaust) Unfortunatly I managed to damage my cylinder head, when inspecting the camshaft it was to worn to refit. I am currently running the standard camshaft (with the S-distribuator) In the future I plan to have a new performance camshaft installed (any recomendations?)
What kind of exhaust do you have on your car?
well, not having the patience to wait for parts from Germany I bought the only muffler I could find with outputs to both sides. http://www.vangbo.no/pdf/distant_thunder.pdf
please continue to ask questions, sooner or later there will be something I have forgotten/ not tought of.
best regards
Lars Olav
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What kind of idle control are you planning to use?
I`m not quite sure yet, I was/is hoping to use some sort of stepper motor valve. BUT, I have heard rumors that that is not possible when using megasquirt to also controll ignition. I have yet to find conclusive facts of this.
I always find it difficult to navigate the MegaSquirt pages, and sometimes I get more confused by reading about different versions of the code and hardware - and the combinations of this.
I found this resource, though, which lines it up pretty nicely:
http://www.megasquirt.info/MS%20FAQ.htm#versions (http://www.megasquirt.info/MS%20FAQ.htm#versions)
The bottom line of that is that if you have a 3.0 board, then you can install the MSnS-E software with ignition control and a vast collection of advanced features. In that case you don't need the piggy back board of "MegaSquirt-II" (which is not the second version of the system, but an upgrade with a faster CPU). I don't like the idea of having a piggy back board in an IC-socket in a critical part of my car, I would'nt be able to stop worrying about when it would fall out due to vibrations, but it seems the II-verison has some interesting features. It's just almost another product.
MSnS has pretty flexible idle control features, it seems to be described here: http://www.msextra.com/manuals/MS_Extra_Software_Manual.htm#idlev (http://www.msextra.com/manuals/MS_Extra_Software_Manual.htm#idlev)
The code for that is also freely available, but it appears it hasn't been updated the last 9 months:
http://megasquirt.cvs.sourceforge.net/megasquirt/msns_extra/msns-extra.asm?view=log (http://megasquirt.cvs.sourceforge.net/megasquirt/msns_extra/msns-extra.asm?view=log)
(note that all the code is in one 14000+ lines assembly file!)
Will you fit an oxygen sensor in the exhaust or run it in open-loop method?
I newer expected to find any maps for the N9 engine, so I orderd a widband O2 sensor, using this I can set a "target value" for A/F ratio. Hopefully this will make tuning less troublesome
Sounds like a good idea! You will have to take it to a rolling road to have it properly set up, however. I've been told that there's a guy here in Eastern Denmark with good MegaSquirt experience *and* a rolling road, so my idea was to persuade him to help me if/when I decide to take on the project.
Are you going to run a standard cam?
When I first bought my murena It was fittet with the complete S-kit, (cam,solex,lighter flywheel, different distributor, different exhaust) Unfortunatly I managed to damage my cylinder head, when inspecting the camshaft it was to worn to refit. I am currently running the standard camshaft (with the S-distribuator) In the future I plan to have a new performance camshaft installed (any recomendations?)
Mine runs a Holbay Fast Road cam and I can recommend that (and I think Holbay may be able to recut your old cam), but since it has a rather big overlap it may give challenges with MegaSquirt, especially if it's controlled primarily using manifold air pressure. With a carburettor, the cam has no problems, however, though the idle is obviously a bit rough and it likes running somewhat higher RPM than the standard cam. Positive side is that it revs up very fast, and above 3000 rpm it's really a rocket. It also doesn't die out in high RPM and the previous owner of my car actually spun it to 7000 rpm once, and still didn't feel it was having problems filling the cylinders. An important factor with such a cam is the exhaust manifold - the standard cast iron manifold probably will not work well on this cam. The inlet side, however, seems to be less critical - though mine was also born with the twin solex'es, when they were worn down beoynd repair, the were replaced with the 34CIC and the standard 2.2 manifold. As it spins easily up the revs, it's obvious that that side is not restricting performance much.
That said, however, if I do convert the car to fuel injection, I'll fit four individual throttle bodies (or rather two pairs), but that is mostly to bring it closer to the original state it had, with the twin carbs, than to boost performance.
What kind of exhaust do you have on your car?
well, not having the patience to wait for parts from Germany I bought the only muffler I could find with outputs to both sides. http://www.vangbo.no/pdf/distant_thunder.pdf
Interesting to see that... it must be somewhat narrow for the Murena? Well I was referring to the manifold, but as you are running the standard cam, there's probably not any big gain by switching.
please continue to ask questions, sooner or later there will be something I have forgotten/ not tought of.
Well your experiences are certainly going to be of help to others, so I'll be more than willing to share my thoughts with you and discuss anything you'd like! :)
- Anders
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MSnS-E software will not work with the megasquirt II prossesor. yet?
That said, however, if I do convert the car to fuel injection, I'll fit four individual throttle bodies (or rather two pairs), but that is mostly to bring it closer to the original state it had, with the twin carbs, than to boost performance.
I wuld love to have individual throttle bodies to, unfortunatly most seem to be severly overpriced, Maybe in a future uppgrade
Interesting to see that... it must be somewhat narrow for the Murena? Well I was referring to the manifold, but as you are running the standard cam, there's probably not any big gain by switching
The manifold to narrow? Not to much left of the original exhaust. The previous owner had taken the the matra for a off road trip wich damaged bothe the muffler and the headers (S-kit) The only problem with the new muffler is that its much louder
Well your experiences are certainly going to be of help to others, so I'll be more than willing to share my thoughts with you and discuss anything you'd like!
You seem to have done a great del of reasarch already, your advice is greatly apriciated
Lars Olav
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MSnS-E software will not work with the megasquirt II prossesor. yet?
It appears so, no. The MS-II processor requires the new C-coded software which is in many ways better than the 14000 lines assembly code...!
I wuld love to have individual throttle bodies to, unfortunatly most seem to be severly overpriced, Maybe in a future uppgrade
I expect that running with individual throttle bodies makes tuning a good deal more difficult, especially with the high overlap Holbay cam - the trouble is that the manifold being so small and the pressure fluctuating due to the cam, the MAP readout will never be reliable. The system will therefore have to be tuned on the throttle potentiometer and that requires a good deal of testing.
The manifold to narrow?
No I was thinking about the muffler.
The only problem with the new muffler is that its much louder
Well that's both good --- and bad :-)
You seem to have done a great del of reasarch already, your advice is greatly apriciated
Thanks, you are most welcome - I'm sure I'll benefit from your experiences too.
- Anders 8)
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Lars, and others...
You might be interested in reading some notes I have made concerning the use of MegaSquirt to drive the ignition (only) on a 2.2. My thoughts concern the MSnS-E software, but MS-II should be the same.
There are two reasons why I'm (more?) interested in digital ignition management rather than fuel injection or even the complete digital engine mangement:
- Performance potential is good (if nothing else is changed)
- It's simpler to implement - no fiddling with injectors, fuel supply etc.
The notes are here...
http://dinsen.net/murena/efi/megasquirtignition (http://dinsen.net/murena/efi/megasquirtignition)
and are only notes - I haven't tried anything yet. I'm only evaluating whether it's something I want to play with...
- Anders 8)
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Thank you for sharing your information on the murena ignition system Anders
Why will you not consider making a hole in the firewall and install the ECU behind one of the seats?
I am sorry for the Slow progress on megasquirt project, but other parts of the murena needed more urgent attention.
so far i have solderd the Ms. v3 board, innstalled the MS II computerchip and loaded the code, so far everything have worked above all expectation. The realy board is also finished. I have not yet orderd a EDIS set and thoted wheel, but that is the next on my list.
I will use the ignitiongraphs from berhard technic hompage and make my initial ignition map from them, when the ignition is up and running fuel injection will be added.
Lars Olav
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Why will you not consider making a hole in the firewall and install the ECU behind one of the seats?
Because I will be making a hole in the firewall ;) So I'll be compromising safety. That's why.
You could also work your way UP under the seats, i.e. pull the loom under the car and then up. That would probably not compromise safety.
Yes, progress.... that's a difficult thing ;)
I haven't checked the configuration options of the MS-II, but I think perhaps you can use the crank sensor which is fitted to the 2.2 engine for diagnostics reasons. I haven't checked how it runs, but I think it fires only twice per crank revolution. But that wouldn't work with the EDIS of course.
The EDIS is nice because as long as you are running ignition only, your MS can fail and you can still get home on the 10 degrees fixed advance ;)
- Anders
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[Because I will be making a hole in the firewall ;) So I'll be compromising safety. That's why.
My Bosch LE2 Jetronic 'puter (for my XU9JA engine) is mounted in the left side of boot, on the engine-wall - with the wires running through a little hole to the engine. It is nicely placed in the dry there - provided the boot is dry, of course.
/Lennart
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[Because I will be making a hole in the firewall ;) So I'll be compromising safety. That's why.
My Bosch LE2 Jetronic 'puter (for my XU9JA engine) is mounted in the left side of boot, on the engine-wall - with the wires running through a little hole to the engine. It is nicely placed in the dry there - provided the boot is dry, of course.
Yes, that's a brilliant location really only with the MegaSquirt's we'd like to have them near the driver so we can run the car with a laptop attached (that would probably distract me more than writing SMS's on a mobile phone while driving!) and ... my boot isn't dry! ;)
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I just came across this book that you might find interesting when you start tuning:
(http://www.veloce.co.uk/shop/graphics/prod_imgs_large/V291_1120479919.jpg)
==> How To Build & Power Tune Distributor-Type Ignition Systems (http://www.veloce.co.uk/shop/products/productDetail.php?prod_id=V291&prod_group=Performance%20Tuning%20&%20Modification&)
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So did any of you guys ever get the car running on megasquirt?
I would be very interested in that, since this is a project that I hope to start next year.
I'm considering megajolt or kdfi (megasquirt clone) for a distributorless ignition system.
Since I'm going to convert to LPG I'm probably not going to use fuel injection.
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I run megasquirt 100-ish years ago, on the 1.9 peugeot engine.
If i have to do it again, my choice would be kdfi.
Kdfi also do 1 day introduction training course. Been there, and i would recommend that. As kdfi is kind of the same as megasquirt (same software but better hardware) the course is usefull for both.
Kdfi people also have a very nice own development of lpg injection.
http://www.bs-autotune.nl/content/view/57/66/ (http://www.bs-autotune.nl/content/view/57/66/)
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I've seen the bs-autotune lpg injection and I must say it looks very good.
It's probably a bit expensive but I will definitely consider it when it helps me get a decent mileage from a 55 liter LPG tank in my 2.2 Murena. With only about 44 liters (80% fill rate) of LPG, mileage is a real concern for me when converting to LPG only. And no, I don't want a LPG tank in the boot of the car.
I'm preferring kdfi over megajolt lite since it has some nice features like knock sensing, lambda control and LPG injection. But I'm not sure if I really need those nice features and implementing them will make the installation much more expensive and complicated compared to megajolt lite.
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Ah,,,, Megasqauirt. ;D
I have a MegaSquirt project waiting to be installed in my Murena. Anders decided not to do it on his, so I bought his 505 injection/turbo intake manifold, which should be a straight fit to the Murena. I got a wide-band Lambda probe and the MegaSquirt kit with a prof-looking box and multi point, water proof, connector with 3 meters of wires. All I need to do is get started :D
Unfortunately personal problems and a lack of work stpace has put a hold on the project. It will happen, though. Before it does, I want to have the engine overhauled, dynamic balancing, honed cylinders, etc. Re- grinding a cam-shaft to S specs is also on the wish list. Oh, if I only had the time for it all now.... >:(
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Too many projects,plans and ideas, too little time. I know the feeling. :)
But it's good to know more people are working on efi. (Even Carjoy is working on something) How are you planning to setup your ignition? Are you going to use the distributor for input or are you going with a 36-1 trigger wheel?
But are you saying that you can fix a 205 intake manifold to a 2.2 head?
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I have a MegaSquirt project waiting to be installed in my Murena. Anders decided not to do it on his, so I bought his 205 GTI turbo intake manifold, which should be a straight fit to the Murena.
Nonono, it's a 505 Turbo manifold :)
/Anders
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I have a MegaSquirt project waiting to be installed in my Murena. Anders decided not to do it on his, so I bought his 205 GTI turbo intake manifold, which should be a straight fit to the Murena.
Nonono, it's a 505 Turbo manifold :)
/Anders
That was a typo, so I corrected the post to avoid confusion if anyone else are trying for this. :D
