MatraSport Forum

I've started getting occasions when the air-bag warning lamp illuminates. Sometimes it occurs after start up but other times it's whilst driving in traffic... usually after a gear change. The warning lamp comes on followed by the usual Renault "Service" indicator but then quickly clears back to showing the time.

I know that the air-bag system is very sensitive to low voltage and voltage drops so guess that it may be an indication that the battery is getting a bit tired.... it's the original and now 6 years / 86,000 miles old.

There's no reason to suspect that the alternator/charge circuit is functioning anything but completely normally but I wonder if the momentary voltage drop when engine revs are lower, such as when gear changing, is enough to trigger the warning because the battery isn't holding sufficient voltage.

Anyone else had any similar experiences?

Martin

Check ALL connectors under both front seats first, 2 airbag connectors under each seat (seat side-bag and belt pyro). The airbag system self checks so if the fault is not present it will not warn even if a fault has been there. It does show on diagnostics regardless if a fault have been open (faultcode stored).

Hi Martin

We have the same problem on ours  :o

The "solution" is to turn the ignition off, lower and lift the driver's seat a few times using the handle on the side, and turn ignition on again => problem gone :D

As Martin suggests, the problem is the connectors under the front seats. The solution employed by Renault mechanics is to cut off the connectors and solder the cables together.

Peugeot has the same problem with their connectors.

At one point the airbag fault came on permanently - this could only be fixed by replacing the airbag module. The module sits in front of the gear stick, so if the problem turns out not to be the connectors, you could be suffering from bad connections down there...

- Anders

I've had both seats out and checked all connectors.... pyro pre-tensioner, both of the seat side air-bag connectors (one under the seat base and the one mounted above the seat swivel turntable) plus the seat-belt engagement sensor on the drivers seat and all OK.
No sign of any problems with any of the wiring either.

But although I didn't find anything that immediately suggests the problem is with the connectors or wiring it was a good opportunity to remove the dead bodies, potato chips, sweets and particles of foam from under the seat........ it wasn't as bad as that really....... I do look after my Espace.... but was disappointed I didn't find any money  ;)

Of course it may be, although there didn't appear to be any particular problem, that having disturbed and then reconnected the wiring connectors then I may have made good a poor connection and the problem will be solved.

Out of curiosity I put a meter across the battery and got 12.46 volts.... so down a bit.... but only a little.

Anyway, we'll see if this little issue now goes away.

Thanks for the input Tom and Anders

Martin

Just been out in the Espace and unfortunately the problem persists.... again shortly after a gear change when the engine was under load at low revs.... which is I why I thought that it may be due to a voltage drop but one would have thought that the alternator would provide sufficient power even if the battery was a little tired.... especially as there were no additional services drawing current... lights off... climate control switched off.

I'll check the air-bag module connections next

Martin

There is also some connectors beside the BII unit that affects the airbag module - check them too

It's simple, Martin - only put the engine under load at high revs ;D that should make driving a lot more fun too!

Ok... seriously: As Tom suggests, a diagnosis may be able to hint which connection is problematic, but "cleaning" the connectors by pulling them off and rejoining them a few times could also help. Unfortunately, these airbag modules are known for giving problems, and it could also be the module itself that has a problem...

- Anders

Checked all connectors next to the BII and under the centre console to the air-bag module.
There was no apparent problem with any of the connectors in terms of them being loose or corroded.

But let the wife out in it for the day on Friday and although she didn't experience any problems with the air-bag warning she did have difficulty getting it started on two occasions.

Thankfully it started for me OK in the early hours of Saturday morning to collect my parents from the airport after a holiday to celebrate their 60th wedding anniversary.... if it hadn't then that would have given them the ultimate end to their holiday having already been delayed as a result of an emergency evacuation of the plane due to a serious fuel spillage whilst it was being refuelled and then delayed a second time because two passengers freaked at having to get off under those circumstances and wouldn't fly.... so they had to unload the baggage hold until they located the couple's luggage!!

But now the Espace won't start at all.... so an air-bag warning is the least of my worries  :(

I'm going to try replacing the the TDC sensor and hope that cures it otherwise it seems like it could be repeat of the problem I had 18 months ago that turned out to be a leaking injector.

Martin

Gosh, what a flight for your parents...   :o

What is it with these dci's in the UK at the moment? I hope it's just a simple fix for you, but there's now three or four users on the forum with similar problems...... ???

Well Anders I guess that it could be one of two things..... either it's that time of month  ;).... or they are having an adverse reaction to our government (which seems so inept that it couldn't run a party in a brewery, never mind a country) imposing retrospective Vehicle Excise Duty (Road Tax) increases from next year on vehicles that have been sold since April 2001.

They are so stupid that they think increasing road tax proportionate to CO2 emmissions on vehicles that have already been in use since 2001 will help reduce pollution. Of course the reality is that they just pi**ed off 9 million motorists because not only do they face increased road tax but their vehicle has effectively been devalued and made more difficult to sell because of the higher tax.... so instead of possibly changing them for less polluting cars they will have to hold on to them longer.
I think that it's time for the re-release of a song from 1978 by a band called Jilted John.... it's called Gordon is a Moron
www.gordonisamoron.co.uk

Just collected a new TDC sensor so will get it fitted and hope for the best

Martin

Shocked it back into life yesterday evening with an aerosol defibrillator.... a shot of Easy Start in to the air intake after the air filter and the engine was running before the computer and sensors woke up to tell it that it shouldn't be  :D

Fitted a new TDC Sensor and it fired up first time.... and again this morning  ;D  Although I won't hold my breath because 18 months ago I had similar problems starting, changed the TDC sensor and it was fine for a few days, then had trouble starting again and it turned out to be a leaking injector.

So guess that only time and a few more miles will determine whether the problem is actually cured or if I'm going to have to dig deep into the pockets again for the joy of owning an Espace  ;)

Martin

She just had a bad day and needed a massage.... Remember to give her a kiss every morning and a good body rub with polish from time to time, and she may keep on serving you. Of course, you never know... after all, she is french! ;D

Our car got a new TDC sensor fitted by Renault in DK, only to see them fit yet another one a year later (which they did without charging time, as they acknowledged the obviously poor fitting)

Roy once told me they had developed a new procedure to fit a new TDC sensor, so the new connections made better contact, as their customers seemed to frequently return to the garages with TDC faults.

I think they cut the wiring and crimped the whole thing on, - making sure the elements couldn't get to the contacts.

As far as I know, Roy is not in the country for the moment, but it might prove useful to get his view.

/Lennart

I remember you mentioning this before Lennart but when I telephoned my local friendly Renault dealer parts manager (whom I have got to know really well ;)) he checked my vehicle VIN to determine if I required the TDC kit to include a sub-harness. Amongst the modifications and upgrades made to the TDC sensor over time they had changed the connector to one more resilient to the elements.
However, being one of the last Romorantin built Espace's mine was already factory equipped with the latest connector so I only needed a new TDC sensor (which also comes with a new retaining clip).

In order to fit the latest sensor to earlier 2.2dCi's it's necessary to cut the two wires to the old style connector and splice in the new fly-lead with the new connector.

But IMHO they should supply the sensor along with a fitting guide because had it not been for previous comments picked up from the forum and having an old copy of Dialogys to refer to, I wouldn't have known, and nor would the majority of DIY mechanics, just how close the sensor should be set to the flywheel.

Martin

I seem to have cured 3 problems in one go..... not only has the new TDC sensor cured the bad starting problem, I am no longer getting air bag warnings...... AND..... an annoying squeak that I've been getting intermittently for over a year, and couldn't locate, also seems to have gone.

I can't be sure what the cure to the air-bag warning problem was because of the timing of the two main issues. It definitely wasn't the connections under the seat because I still got the warning after checking those. As Tom suggested I also checked the connectors next to the BII but no sign of any problem there. I hadn't got to checking the connections to the air-bag module when the starting problem overtook me and having run the battery well down trying to get the car started I gave it a full charge and have since not had the air-bag warning!! So, whether it was a poor connection next to the BII even though they seemed perfect or whether it was a low voltage issue that having a fully charged battery cured I don't know.... but at least the problem is no more.

As for the squeak.... it seems that taking the seats off their mounts was worthwhile even though it didn't immediately solve the air-bag warning issue, because after refitting them I don't appear to any longer have that annoyance. The seat rails are mounted on plastic spacers/pillars and I guess that they may have settled/compressed slightly over time (due to being subject to excess cargo load from my backside ::)) so re-tightening the rails down fully appears to have cured the squeak.

Deep Joy  :D

Martin

Knew that I had it somewhere Lennart.... here's the technical note on the 2.2dCi TDC sensor updates

Martin

Yup - thats technical note blue 4324A . However, Roy's hint was something they did to improve on the 4324A replacement note, to stop customers from returning with the same fault.

The note is already in the vault under its 4324A name. I cannot decide if I should rename the documents to something human, or retain the real names. Problem is of course that you really need Dialogys to point at the document.

/Lennart

When I first joined the forum I downloaded the vault information on the JE's and renamed them all so that I could find relevant information quickly and simply without sytematically opening up all the PDF's until I came to the one I needed. I have since, as you know, got a very old copy of Dialogys so don't now, as often, refer to the vault information.... and nor I guess do others with Dialogys

So, my opinion for what its worth Lennart, is that the PDF's in the vault should be named relative to their content/subject matter to make it easier for the majority of people using that knowledge base who do not have Dialogys in any form.

Martin

fair view. - and that is what I initially did (locally, before I created the vault), but it made it impossible for me to track the documents professionals referred to., which caused me to rename them back to the original names.

Maybe using both would help, - i.e. :
   "4324A technical note blue - G9T TDC sensor replacement."

If someone would like to provide me a list of the current vault docs and some good names, I'd be happy to rename as per consensus :)

/Lennart

Perhaps im just very blind as my eyes are blocking my view - where is the vault ?

Click on the picture of the Espace on the home page Tom and that will take you to

http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Espace/espace-index.html

which has the links to all the resources for the Espace.... picture galleries, history, facts, stories.... and the VAULT

Martin

Thanks :)

ps: its not very in-your-face, admittedly, but thats partly because of the borderline legality of the files stored there ...
/Lennart

excellent idea... covers both worlds


OK Lennart.... I'll volunteer..... BUT.... I'm in the middle of re-roofing parts of the house and replacing the windows so it may be a couple of weeks before I can get around to doing it

Martin

I've been using this format when storing, as they then are sortable by NT number:
3485A_SERVICE_PROGRAMME.pdf

It would seem that you already have the job done then Tom  ;)

Martin

Some things yes - let me see if i can "stumble upon" a zip of everything out there and post a link for you ;D

 ;D look what i found for the vault by doing some "googling" ::)
http://www.adrive.com/public/fad2ed338e194ade33533e518a957caedeb3a23c24611f6bd0a802f7383461db.html

(29Mb zip)

however you googled, or however someone did this file, this was great news for the JE vault, which just grew by 30Mb to fit its name better :-)  Thanks!

/Lennart

Perhaps you already checked ... but just as a hint

The connector on the right next to the fusebox caused my car to work not properly (immobilazor). Of course this is not your problem ... but in my case this whole connector was corroded ... and all others connectors look brand new (do not understand why...perhaps some years ago water damage)

This connector has three rows of pins A,B,C ... row C has a couple of pins 1,2,3 which are repossible for AIRBAG after ignition, Power to immobilazor, Connection immobilazor to fuel relay or engine computer, etc

In my case the car worked sometimes but not always (voltage immobilazor between 6 and 10V)...I also still have a faulty airbag system and already changed connection under seats ... I even tested driver airbag by replacing airbag with 2,5 ohm resistor. Renault tried to read AIRBAG computer but got no response. I will now again go to this connector and check if the corroded connector causes the airbag problems like it caused also the immobilazor problems. If neccessary I rewire outside the connector like I did for the Immobilizor.

hope this suggestion helps you.....

Thank you for sharing your experiences.
I checked those connectors on my vehicle but all are in good condition with no corrosion.

I thought that I had cured the problem but I am still getting air-bag problem warnings occassionally.... but less frequently than before and seem to come after the vehicle has not been used for a few days.

If I don't find any other problems then maybe I'll have to change the air-bag computer... but that also means having it re-coded into to system  :(

Martin

I have replaced the air-bag computer, but only after the clip (renault diagnostic system) refused to talk to it. A new one cured that problem, but the engine wouldn't run with the new computer. Why? There is a built in "engine shut down" system in the air bag computer. It's designed to shut the engine off in the event of a crash - and prevent restart (a safety precaution since you don't know what has been damaged). This feature has to be turned on in the air bag computer (using the clip) before it supplies the "allow engine to run" signal to the ECU.

Roland, I think you will benefit from a new computer. I know it's costly, and it could actually still be working all right, but you won't know until it's too late, and a new one fixed the "Renault tried to read AIRBAG computer but got no response" problem for us. We still get warnings from time to time, but shutting the car off, repeatedly raising and lowering the driver's seat, then turning it back on usually cures it.... Yes, I really have to do those connectors one day! 8)

- Anders

Good to be armed with the information regarding the engine shut down.... thanks Anders.

Just wonder if BBA Reman would/could repair one... they seem to offer a fix for most other vehicle electronic systems.
If it comes to needing the computer sorting then I think I'll give them a shot first and that would also hopefully avoiding having to pay out yet more for the re-coding on a Clip.

I hope that I don't have to replace it since it is VERY expensive for what it is.... but then, as you already made the point, what price do you put on potentially saving a life or two?

Martin

I've got my old one stuffed away in my basement somewhere. If you want to try to have it fixed, I can send it to you. There's not much fun in removing the one you have in the car to send it off for repair, as the car will be non-running until you get it back.

But thinking about it, the situation may be different for the DCI. As far as I remember from reading the wiring diagram (good for falling asleep! ;) ), the DCI has an intertia switch in the engine room instead. In that case you should be able to run without the air bag computer...?

- Anders

Very kind of you to offer Anders.... thank you.
I will in the meantime try to exhaust all other possibilities and if the outcome still suggests a computer fault then I will first speak with BBA Reman to explore that option and come back to you if they think it's feasible.


You are correct Anders..... the inertia switch with reset button is located just behind the fuel filter..... but whether it will still run without the computer we would have to see after unplugging it.

Martin

My airbag always gives a failure version when I start the car followed by the service message. When I understand the manual correctly there is only one line which signals the airbag failure. This line is called in the manual the "airbag diagnostic warning light" (number A2 in chanpter 88. I do not think there is intelligents in that signal. For the more simpler dash (without the fancy display) they connect this signal directly to a warning light instead of the computer of the dash (I do not know for sure ... this last statement). There is also a B1+B2 line...but to my opinion this is connected only to the diagnostics socket.

only one time in half a year it signalled first ok on the dash and after half a minute again the Airbag warning.

My car is a 2.0 petrol from 97 march ... perhaps it is different for this model

I bought a second hand airbag module this weekend. I will try it after I have my car back from the garage ... had some damage on the side of the car ... hit a deer in Denmark while driving back from my holliday in Sweden ... I was happy the car only had minor damage ... insurence pays the bill :)

Wow, where did that happen? It's not somthing that happens a lot around here. Good that nothing serious happened to the car. I hope the poor animal didn't suffer too much.

Good luck with the airbag module.

- Anders

How DARE you refer to an Espace as an animal Anders! - tsk tsk ! :-)

Roland1975 , it is a shame you already checked the connections under seats (which sense if anybody are actually sitting in the seat, and thus arms trhe airbag). They are prone to create problems for the airbag system, and even the replacement connector is of poor quality.

/Lennart

I was thinking about the poor DEER, Lennart! Tsk tsk!

We all know that our Espace's are true ladies: Give her plenty of attention, and she MIGHT just pay you back with lots of fun (and plenty of kids!), but forget them for a moment, and they'll give you headaches and troubles... ;D

- Anders

Not that I have an Espace, but just wanted to mention I have a diagnostics unit that will read and clear error codes on french cars from 1996 and newer...
That's also the airbag and abs system.

If anyone needs to have their car checked, and would like to save the cost of going to the dealer let me know  ;D
Of course of most use to Danish members living near Copenhagen or Korsoer.

By the way, some places in Denmark you do see deer's quite often. I know someone who was hit by a deer earlier this year.
And yes I mean "hit by", as the deer ran into the side of the car while driving on a small country road  ;)
Deer didn't seem to be hurt, but the car got a few dent's at the sidepanel.

I bet it can't read an Espace! ;) but thanks for the offer, let's try it as soon as possible! :)

Are the Espace worse than other french cars?
I know that most french cars are a pain in the back side, but this one is specific for french cars (Renault, Citröen and Peugeot).
My HDI engine doesn't work with most units (as it's not OBD compliant) but this diagnostics unit works ok...

The accident did happen on the E47 60KM before Rodbey at 1:30AM. Was doing a 130 KM/H suddenly a big deer with antlers in the headlights. Hit it on the antlers with the left blinker ... after stopping on the side of the road ... I could see the damage ... blinker broken ... front bumper broken ... piece of grill missing ... but it also ripped of the left side of the rear bumper. We have been very lucky we could drive home with the car.
I did try to find the animal ... but I did not find ... calling police was also not possible ... no network coverage ... the emergency pole did also not work .... I decided to drive to the ferry and had my first good look at the car in the ferry.
Car has now been fixed ... 2500,- euro ... insures pays ....