MatraSport Forum

Hi All,  I'm very new to the world of the espace (purchased my 2002 2.2 Dci 'the race' on Monday)...  kind of mixed feelings about it at the moment  :-\...  I've owned turbo diesel cars now for about 10 or so years and am quite used to the usual characteristics (the normal TD turbo lag, etc),  but - for some reason, the espace seems to feel quite underpowered.  I know - it's a beast of a machine and there's no comparing it to a 'normal' cars performance.

From my experience so far though, it seems to feel quite 'van' like (the engine I mean) -  rather rustic..  and forgive me if this is just showing my ignorance here, but I anticipated the dci to be a more refined engine than a transit.   It seam very noisy (especially under load at lower revs),  and it just doesn't feel at all responsive.  I can't explain this any better, but I 'know' it's capable of better responsiveness - there seems to be something holding it back.  The harder the accelerator is pressed, the more it seams to be held back...  there's also a kind of 'stutter' sometimes if I accelerate a bit harshly where the power seems to momentarily drop off - then it picks up again.  I've had issues like this in the past (think it was a dodgy air flow meter)??

Now - I may just be describing the characteristics of all of your Dci's out there (which I'm  hoping to be true) - but, for some reason, I doubt it.   Could anyone give a comparisson to the above - at least I'll then know whether to take up the issues with the dealer (or a garage) if it is out of the ordinary...  are your Dci's smooth, quiet, responsive (say in comparison to a 'normal TD car')..

A few other niggles (well - will probably turn out to be more than niggles if the renault dealer gets hold of it  ;)) -

• The radio / CD does not work - pressing the on/off button for the prescribes 2 seconds or so but nothing - no change on the dash - no sound - nothing.  The remote doesn't work (but obviously won't if the radio's had it)
• Theres an airbag warning on when I first switch on the ignition - beeps -  it then goes away when I start driving (not sure if the 'problem' goes away - or whether the system checks are just done at start up - ovbiously that beeeeeep would be quite annoying if it were constantly on! - ovbiously worrying if I'm running about with no airbags!
• a 'very very' high pitched whine when depressing the accelerator - barely audible - it's that high - it kind of sounds like a turbo whine but higher - but is happening when I would'nt expect the turbo to be operating (no load at all) - (I've had some TDs where the turbo while was very pronounced, others have been silent)

And that's it at the moment - I've had it for a week and am kind of regreting buying it to be honest,  and after reading some of the posts on this forum I feel even worse!  Don't get me wrong, it's a very impressive 'car' - but I'm concerned that this may be just the start of the problems...

Could anybody offer some assistance for any of these points?  It would be very much appreciated...  should it be returned to the dealer while I have the chance or should I stick with it and start investigating the issues (I'm assuming to put the issues above right will cost £100's)

Thanks in advance,
Ian

(like the forum by the way).

Hi Ian

Welcome to the forum!

I'm not an expert on the 2.2dci, but I do know enough to confirm that what you are experiencing is not normal. It's supposed to feel powerful, quick and quiet.

Merely conveying other people's experiences, I would think that the most possible cause for the lack of power you are experiencing is the EGR-valve. This valve returns exhaust gasses into the inlet - this improves mileage and emissions, but obviously also reduces power, so the engine management system shuts the valve off when you rev it high or push the throttle.

The problem is that these valves become dirty inside (there's a recent thread about this), and eventually it will not close completely any more. This will effectively limit the amount of power the engine can produce!

As for the sound you are hearing, I suggest you try having the EGR valve replaced or cleaned first. It may fix it, but it could also be various other things. Having had a car where the timing belt was overtensioned and eventually broke, I'm always a bit worred about "whining" sounds as that's exactly the sound an incorrectly fitted belt will produce. So you may want to check that too.

Otherwise, I hope some of the DCI experts here will add some info. I'm sure you'll find plenty of good advice here!

Good luck,
Anders

...just to add - reading a forum like this IS reading about problems, that is the nature of such forum.

The airbag lamp is most probably the common connector problems under front seats. A "Renault wide" problem.

Concerning radio, check fuses - the OFF message is generated by display and comes if radio is absent or off.

Clean the EGR, re-fit it, clear fault codes and then disconnect it. Not a "by the book" solution but it has proven to be a well functioning solution.

Hi guys,  thanks so much for the quick responses (I had a good feeling about this forum  ;D)...  First point,  really sorry - didn't mean to dis your forum - I know the only real reason for such a forum is to report issues and hopefully help others resolve them...  the problem is, I found myself reading all the various problems and completely freeking myself out!  :o... I need to calm down.

I'll pop over to the other thread to have a look at the EGR-valve issue.. it's really encouraging that the car IS supposed to perform like a modern car rather than a 1992 ford transit with 300,000 miles on the clock!  (mine's done 58,000 by the way)

The radio / stereo - yes, it does say OFF. 

I've contacted the garage where I bought the car and they're taking it in to 'have a look at it'... 

Anyway,  thanks again for the help

Will post back with an update.

Thanks,
Ian.

Quite understandible... I guess all cars have problems, unfortunately our belowed Espace's aren't exactly the least problematic ones around, but we try to share experiences so the problems can be fixed. And when you get down to it, they aren't that bad actually.

Besides, it's just a great car to drive, no matter whether you'll be doing daily shopping and dropping kids off at school, or taking a long jurney for a holiday.

A 2.2 dci should certainly NOT feel like an old Transit ;) - but tell the garage about the EGR, and if they have experience with modern diesels, they will probably know what you're talking about and fix it for you.

Cheers,
Anders

Well - just got the EGR valve out no problems, and yes - well sooted up.  I've been at it for an hour now with some abrasive wool, wd40, petrol, etc...  will resume in the morning.   I reckon I could make a small cup cake with the amount of carbon that's come off it (wouldn't want to eat it though!)...  Whether this is my problem or not it can only help. 

Thanks again for the advice and great photos, they helped a lot.

(girlfriends laptop now covered in carbon deposits - she's not going to be happy)   ;D...

Regards,
Ian

Hi Ian, looks like you're on the way to getting things sorted, the'yre a great bunch on this forum with lots of help, the espace is a great car  and this forum should help restore you're faith in it.

 :o

I think you both will be happy tomorrow when you have a 'new' car!! :D

Laptop is a tool  ;D

Hi,  I've cleaned up the EGR-valve -  as I said, it was very sooted up.  It's very clean now...  I've replaced it fine - BUT - the problem seems even worse now!  Even less responsiveness,  virtually no turbo boost and very rought (and noisy)...

I'm assuming I coudln't have made this worse by cleaning the valve? (obviously I haven't been able to clean the housing)...  -  could the valve be defective?

I've had a test run with the EGR unplugged - and it performs exactly the same...  what does this mean?....  I'm assuming the valve is open by default (exhaust coming in but no turbo boost) - unplugging should keep the valve open at all times, so obviously no boost when it's floored (am I right)?

If this is that case, doesn't this mean the valve's not working properly - not closing (when plugged in of course).  Or - more scary - that there's not actually any turbo boost to pass through the closed EGR in the first place!

Any suggestions?

Thanks,
Ian,   

I'm sorry to hear this wasn't a straight success. You have cleared a problem, but there's obviously another one still there :(

It could be a leak in the exhaust?

Hi Anders,  thanks for the advice so far...  very much appreciated.    It's going back to the dealer tomorrow (to look at the engine problem, airbag fault and stereo)..   would you advise me to leave it there, walk away and find another espace?  it seem from other threads and post, that when these problems start, they seem to keep reacurring  - over and over again and it seems that people lose faith and trust in their vehicles (I'm driving to France from the uk next week and would really hate to break down out there)...  the most sickening thing is I exchanged for a 1.9td citroen   which didn't give me a days problems in the 11 years I owned it!

I believe the dealer will be taking it to local garage also, and I'm doubtful whether they have the experience / equipment to find the engine fault (after reading this forum it seems to be something of a black art that only a few of you special people out there have mastered!!!)

  Now don;t get offended by this - but - with the obvious reliability issues the espace was 'born' with..  why are there so many people out there sticking with them (and it seems spending absolute furtunes on reparing them????)... why should I just not sell out and get a VW (or a Ford  ;) )?

I want be in your gang - honest...  but I'm not sure I can take the pain   :'(


Regards,
Ian

Hi Ian

You have been lucky with your Citroen :) - around here, all French cars are known for giving their owners 'challenges' ;)

But, I understand your bad feelings about getting this kind of problems with a car you just bought.

The thing with the 2.2 dci is that it's a modern technology diesel. They do have more problems than the old diesel engines. And that applies to all of the new tech diesels - even Mercedes. But they are great engines with none of the drawbacks of the older diesels: They are powerful, give loads of torque, wonderfully economical etc.

All in all I wouldn't doubt a second which one I'd choose, and it would be a modern one. I'd prepare myself for a little higher cost-of-ownership in exchange for a lively car - which yours should also be!

I think the best advice I can give you is to give it a chance and let the dealer/garage try to fix the problem. Then decide from there if you want to keep the car or not. Diagnosing the problem isn't a black art, but the mechanic does need to know what he's dealing with. Some Renault dealers apparantly don't, I'm afraid, so it's not just a question about going to an official dealership, but at least they would have the proper tools and documentation.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!

- Anders 8)

I would second that comment about the correct tools to diagnose faults. Many places have the tools but haven't got a clue how to use them!

I have booked my 2.2Dci into a recommended Bosch agent who is familiar with the 'modern' diesel technology, is hands on with them everyday, and can actually understand what the diagnostic tools are telling him. Many others just keep replacing parts until the problem goes away, resulting in a hefty bill.

It is very easy to just go out and buy a box of tricks to diagnose problems, the skill comes in being able to interpret the faults and not be led up the garden path by them, skill and experience are far superior to the 'computer says..............x,y and z' mentality that some garages have.

John

.....and some problems will never show on diagnostics neither as faultcodes or status and live readings. Konventional tools and knowledge is in addition very important.
First know how it is supposed to work, then you are able to fix it. If you dont know how it is supposed to work you will never fix it unless by pure luck.

That's very true, Tom. In short, only the problems that the computer can "see" will show up. And mostly, the fault codes only show up when something obvious is wrong, for example a short circuit of a sensor or output.

And the thing about knowing how it works and understanding the system is where it gets very tricky and where you need an engineer more than a mechanic. Fortunately some mechanics have reasonably good intuition to the systems, but  there aren't a lot of them around, I'm afraid.

- Anders

Hi,  this is exactly what's happened at the dealer I've just taken my car back to...  they took it to a garage who plugged it into a computer which reported a fault with the EGR.. so they took it out cleaned it and replaced it (even though I'd done this on the weekend).  They checked again and the error code was gone.  So, apparently the car is fine (as there's no fault codes) - it's a miracle! - but when I asked if anybody had given it a propper  road test,  their response was kind of 'why would we bother...  the computer says it's fine so what's the point?'..  yes..  but is it running properly now?  well, we assume so,  all we can do is clear the fault codes - what elso do you want us to do???...  ::)

What happened to good old fashioned mechanics?  I've been programming computers for 20 years,  I know their not perfect, i've built some terrible software in the past mysenf (some good stuff also obviously)...  these codes are probably nothing more that a pointer to a problem giving a mechanic a 'general idea' about what sorts of systems are playing up.  If ECU's are like any other computer program in the world - if it doesn't know what's wrong, you can bet bottom dollar that the programmer has build in a catch all error somewhere that will have you running
around for days trying to sort out a fault that just doesn't exist!  I know these Diesels are quite advanced now - but they're still internal combustion engines (aren't they?)... that surely that makes  these issues more of an engineering problem than a 'techy's' problem...  are you saying that a 'traditional' mechanic with years and years of experience fixing 'normal' cars doesn't stand a change of sorting these issues out?

(sorry for the rant...  I'm a bit angry at the moment as cars still off the road)...   any time now though she'll be good as new  ;D (fingers crossed).

All the best,
Ian 

I'm really sorry to hear that... you have perfect reason to rant about the incompetence.


Indeed.


That's what we want them to be... ;D


I think there are experienced mechanics out there that can fix these problems because the don't trust the computer or because they actually read what the computer says. My petrol Espace suffered from some bad running some months ago, but the computer showed no fault codes at all. The problem turned out to be the ignition coils, which were rusty and gave a bad spark. The computer just advanced the ignition as much as it could, but obviously coulnd't see what kind of spark that took place in the cylinder. It also couldn't "feel" the jerkyness. I bought a new set of coils for it because I know it's a common problem with these engines, not because I *knew* it would fix the problem. Fortunately, it did, and she's running like a new car now :D

- Anders

Those two last statements show that you Ian (like most unfortunately) don't understand the motor trade and why it has got into the mess it has.  I have been in this trade for over 36 years and have seen the huge changes and development over those years and the problems caused, from the inside, and share your concerns but you cannot entirely blame the garage employees.

You say 'what happened to good old fashioned mechanics?'  Well the first thing you need to understand is that 'mechanics' can only understand mechanical things, which they can see and generally work out what it should do, and what has happened to stop it working.  Their intelligence level is not as great as yours (since you are into programming) and they cannot understand electrics let alone electronics.  This is a historical problem relating to the fact that most mechanics were taken from the low end of the educational system - many were academic failures.  This is still happening today.

Anyone who can do both electrics and mechanics well, has to have a higher level of understanding and is usually known as a technician not a mechanic.  This is an important distinction and it is no good simply giving a mechanic the technician title - he has to be skilled to a high level.  Too many garages abuse the term.  Mechanics think of electrics as a black art and electronics as black boxes of which they have no comprehension at all.  I have seen mechanics make elementary mistakes with very basic electrics and cause wiring burn-outs simply because they don't understand what they are doing.

Now it is difficult enough to separate the ignition system from the mechanical functions of an old engine to decide where the fault lies with an engine that won't start or run properly, but it is impossible to separate the electronics and mechanics on a modern engine when trying to find out why things are not right.  A mechanic just has no chance here.  It has to be a competent technician at least with the right tools to be able, first to understand it, and then work out what has gone wrong.  You have to sort out cause from effect, and even mechanics often get that wrong.  They repair the effect but not the cause, so it happens again.

Manufacturers have zoomed ahead with complex solutions to complex emission legislation using highly skilled and paid engineers without considering the educational standards and skill levels of the service personnel.  Consequently you have the situation now where we have vehicles with complexities beyond all but a handful of the best technicians, who are often hampered by the fact that they won't even give us technicians the information which we want, and the trade is unwilling to pay the levels to get the people they really need.  If you compare the skills required by technicians today, and those in the computer industry, we often have to know more since we have to understand the basic mechanics as well as the electronics, yet we are paid far lower.  The trade may charge a lot, but what does the actual technician get - I can tell you that here in London, the dealers often charge over £100 per hour but the technician rarely gets £12 per hour.  A computer industry technician gets far more.  When you consider this you can see why the person who you need to be a technician is going to get a job in the computer industry where he will get a better salary, whilst working conditions are much better and he doesn't even have to pay for much tooling.  A computer technician can often carry all his tools in a brief case.  A mechanic or technician has a huge set of tool boxes full of tools which can easily cost him £10,000-£20,000.

Renault and other manufacturers answer to this problem is not to pay a decent salary to get the technicians they need.  It is to produce diagnostics systems that you can plug in and should lead the unskilled, step by step to the fault and the cure.  Well I'm sorry but I know that will never work satisfactorily.  In the meantime because of the poor software and understanding, the owners of the vehicles are the ones that suffer.


... and that shows how little you (or anyone that thinks the same) really understand the problems we now face in the industry.  I'm not getting at you Ian, it is just that without really understanding the modern engine or vehicle and seeing the changes that have happened with technology, you cannot understand the problems.

To give you just one simple example, there are not many people who really understand what the vacuum advance system does on an old petrol engine distributor.  The 'how' and 'why' of the system.  I have even heard quite skilled mechanics get it totally wrong.  So if they can get something as simple as this wrong, what are they to make of the latest complex engine systems?  For a complex example take this - An automatic is not changing gear properly yet the gearbox computer shows everything is fine in the workshop when hooked up to the diagnostics machine, and there are no errors in any computer.  The problem was with the CAN link between the ABS computer and the injection computer, but both the ABS and injection system worked fine.  Now tell me why?


I'm just as sorry for my rant, but it needed pointing out.  Because I see much of this from both inside the motor trade from bosses who haven't a clue, and the qualification standards are too low; and the outside where the general public gets a raw deal but does not know what is really happening and why.

And it is not likely to change soon either.  My solution was to start working for myself.  Then I can charge a decent rate for my work and skills and have satisfied customers, who are not ripped off by the trade.

Roy

If you think that the motor trade is bad Roy you should try the Agricultural or Construction equipment markets.
The going rate is more like £9.00 an hour and the dealers are lucky if they can charge much more than £45 per hour and yet the machines have all the complexities of modern cars in terms of engines, management systems and electronics PLUS complex hydraulic systems and computer controlled electro-hydraulic systems & transmisions. Add to that the fact that they are dealing with machines on which a single wheel & tyre can weigh more than a Murena and an axle more than a fully loaded Espace and must-have service tools are a fortune (as an example the tooling required just to service the brakes of a wheeled loading shovel are £1800). Then realise that 9 times out of 10 they are carrying out repairs in the mud, rain and cold and not in a workshop.
When I was in that game we used to wonder how we could attract service personnel to work in such an environment when they could earn 25% more in the relative comfort of a workshop within the motor trade. So if you think that the car trade has it's problems don't go into either Agriculture or Construction equipment because the hassles were enough for the owner of a company where I used to work for him to take the rather drastic decision to ventilate his own head using a shotgun.

Martin

Hi all.

My name is Mark Harris and I've just registered on this site. I have a 2006 2.2Dci Espace, with only 22,000 miles on it and so went looking for EGR stuff online and arrived here.

I tend to do my own work on cars, and despite being a Pilot by trade, am well read on car mechanics, as well as my passion of motorbikes. Unfortunately, our local Renault dealer is staffed by cynical types so is not easy to deal with, and our car is still under the curse of it's manufacturer's warranty. only april till I can get the tools out!

Roy, I fully understand your dismay. I really do. I spent a few hours trying to treach the local Vauxhall Technicians how a thermostat worked, because they didn't have a clue as it didn't generate a fault code! Enough said.

Ian. The EGR valve on a 2.2DCi Espace Mk4 or 5 should be a solenoid electronic one. This should be shut when de-energised, and the two chambers withing the body will be sealed off from each other. If yours was open, then it was sticking and that's not good. The Turbo was pumping air out of both valves and thus your engine was probably getting no more than atmospheric pressure, yet the airflow meter and any air pressure sensor would detect all was normal and allow the ECU to give full fuel as per revs and your foot pedal position. Result./...no power and loads of soot.

As Roy will no doubt agree, the fundementals are oft forgotten. A Diesel is not like a petrol engine. It does not rely on a correct air/fuel ratio to produce combustion, thus correctly ratioed air/fuel is not premixed and fed to the engine via a throttle to restrict airflow to adjust power made.

A Diesel always gets a full lung-ful and does not have that throttle butterfly. The power depends on fuel supplied...up to the point where it gets too much and then the excess will come out as soot.

Old simple diesels demonstrated it well. You could leave a cloud of black soot behind you and by lifting the pedal slightly, stop the soot cloud without any reduction in power.

Modern engines are covered in electronic valves, pumps and clever stuff, but at the heart of it, if the engine is fed too much fuel for the air it breathes, it will generate soot. Simple as that. Stopping it is less simple.

Why does our Espace fill the EGR with soot? Too much fuel. (You can see this by the fuel consumption- mine's giving 15.2mpg around town >:() But the Fuel is metered according to an ECU based on Airflow, Absolute pressure, revs and pedal position. So if the fuel is right, the obvious is NOT ENOUGH AIR! Again, this is a fundemental truth, and often not covered by a fault code.

Either; dirty air filter, knackered turbo, sooted up or sticking EGR or leaking hoses or inlet plenum.

None of these will generate a fault code, because they don't involve a closed loop electronic part.

A spinning but underspeed turbo is not going to last long. It'll make a noise and be pretty obvious. Leeking hoses won't happen unless a dodgy mechanic has been playing, and the hiss when you get Mrs to push the loud pedal while you stand at the front should make that obvious too.

The Air filter is bloody hard to get at, but Renault reckon they last 20,000 miles. Hmm.

The EGR is the most likely culprit then. It should be closed or open. Closed when de-powered.

Mine? Well it's under warranty and the Dealer said it was sticking but fine when cleaned.

Note: I'd removed it and cleaned it myself last week. It moved freely, but the outer of the two valves was about 1/2mm off it's seat when the inner one was fully seated. I know it was seated, because petrol wouldn't flow through it. They're on the same shaft so clearly the outer one is out of adjustment. Which is why I booked it in.

The Dealer Foreman doesn't want to speak to me as he thinks I'm full'o'shite as I keep asking questions he can't answer. He reckons it's fine. it must be as it doesn't generate a fault code..... :-\

Ian, sorry for hyjacking your thread for a moment, but we appear to share at least the same model car, and my fresh experience sounds relevant enough.

What I don't know, is where the air goes that comes out of the end valve in the EGR. anyone?

 

Hi
I can only say that my newly purchased Espace 2.2 dT 113 HP from 1998 which has done 215,000 km drives like a dream.
It feels powerful, it is very quiet comfortable and fast. I am already sorry that the Espace is going to be my wife's car.
My wife already loves the Espace. When she has been driving the Espace on her own she have actually taken a longer rout then necessary just to enjoy the car, and she is already planning next years summer vacation in the Espace to the south of France with some friends in the Espace.
Good for me that the wife is happy with my choice of car for her!!

Hans

Hello Mark,

Yes I agree with almost all you've said.  However, be aware that some modern diesels (including Renault) do now have a throttle plate so the old idea that they can take in as much air as they want no longer applies.  And the common rail diesels have so many differences that you have to very careful not to assume anything, because you can easily be misled, or injured or damage the engine or components, if you do certain things, which would not have been a problem with the old type.


If you mean where does the exhaust gas go, it is fed back into the engine in small quantities to reduce certain pollution by effectively stopping the cylinders filling with fresh air and fuel!

Roy

Thanks Roy. no, what I wanted to know was this;

When you look at the EGR valve, it's obvious the exhaust "feed" is the one nearest the solenoid body, from the amount of soot. When the solenoid operates, exhaust gas is drawn into the other chamber via the valve and sucked into theengine thereafter. However, the outer end of the EGR has another valve on the end, presumably to vent boost pressure or something? Having not seen the body the ER sits in properly, I don't know where air would go if, as on my EGR valve, that outer valve head is mis-adjusted and sits slightly open, even when the inner is closed.

It appears on my car, that the outer one stays slightly open, and I'm wondering if some boost pressure is being lost overboard somewhere? If so, it would explain my fuel consumption woes.....Of course, if that outser valve is just a pressure balancer, and the air that comes out just goes round in the body and onto the engine, then, I'm on a dead end. However, I just don't know that one.

Help.

i know this is an old post, but you could have actually made the EGR valve problem worse by the way you cleaned it. it sounds like you were far, far to harsh in the cleaning method.   Use only solvent cleaners like carbon cleaner or brake cleaner and a soft brush. Problem with the EGR vale seats is that they have to seal 100% to work effectively and you have effectively been sanding them down and scoring them by using wire wool etc. I know this to my cost.  I'll bet if you bought a new egr valve and fitted it, the issue would go away. One small piece of carbon, that you could hardly see would be enough to jam an egr valve seat open just enough to destroy an engines power in the way you have explained in your initial post, but please, when cleaning them, be patient and be careful - do not use anything that can mark or score the valves or the valve seats in the egr valve, or you'll get the same result from a cleaned valve as from a dirty one.