MatraSport Forum

Hi,
I need to remove the radiator from my Murena, to either repair or replace it.
Can anyone give me some hints as to the best way to do this?

Can it come out from underneath? Or is it a nose-cone off job.

Any help gratefully received.

Cheers,

Antony

it is the best and easyd from above take out the front boot gfk, lift upthe front of car so high that top of radiator is higher than the engine take out the radiator keep the big hose close whit a clasp [i hop that is the right word for it] replace the new one and fill it bevore you put back the hose, also fill the hose and close it complete, now you have not many air in it and it gives not much problems to take the last air out of the system

I wouldn't worry much about air in the water system as you want to go through the procedure to get it out anyway to be sure. And the rad is probably the most common place for air to be stuck.

But that said, hwpaints seems to be talking out of experience. I don't have any experience to share, but I hav checked the manual and had a look myself, and I'm sure it's not that difficult to do from the underside - without removing any panels. There's a metal piece under the rad, that has to come off first, of course, but other than that there's nothing special.

- Anders

Thanks for the advice guys.
I will chuck a bottle of Radweld in tonight and if that doesn't help, it will have to come out.

Just one word of warning - the most common failure of Murena radiators seems to be leaks around where the tanks on the sides are fixed to the radiator itself, so if you have a leak from the rad, I'd replace it as the tank fixings can't be sealed with anything.

A new rad is cheaper than a new cylinder head or engine, and that could turn out to be a very good argument when you are explaining to the wife why you need to spend on the car AGAIN! ;D

As it happens, I,ve just put a new rad into my car. I say I, but really I should say Mr.Gillard. Roy has been working on my car over the months and the last thing he did was the cooling system, including the radiator. He managed to do this from underneath. I aided him (if only a third hand, eh Roy).
I think if you don't know the car as well as Roy it would be easier to take out the fiber glass panel by drilling out the rivets and working from above.
My original rad had corroded so much that the bottom bracket which holds the base of the fan was not there. And yes, if working from below, there is a bottom sheild that needs to be removed, as Anders says.

Well after using some Radweld, I did 50, very fast, miles today and it hasn't leaked, so it will do for a while till I get the rad sorted.

Good to hear. I hope you got a chance to enjoy the miles without too much distraction from the temp gauge :D

Unsurprisingly, the Radweld didn't hold for very long and the rad sprung a leak again.
The rad is going to have to come off, so I will try and do it from underneath.

Wish me luck!

I will: Good luck! :)

Well, thats the rad out! I had all 4 bolts and the bottom hose off, but the top hose was solid. So, I whipped out my drill, had it away with the rivets and out came the front boot and then the rad.

It looks a bit rusty, so I don't hold out much hope, but I'll take it to my radiator man later and see what he says.

Cheers,

Antony

Hooray! Well done. Will be interesting to hear what your rad man has to say.

- Anders

Rad man says £110 for a refurb. including a new, bespoke core, with a 2 day turnaround. It would have been cheaper if he could use another, similar core but nothing else was suitable. A Porsche one was closest, but too thin.

He claims it will be as good as new and if so, is quite a bit cheaper than the £170+ Will wants for a new one.

Just need to get a pop rivet gun now, to refit my front boot!

As far as I know, you can put in a radiator from a Ciroen Visa/C15 with som small adjustments for the vent.

Really? That would have been good to know.
Still, I won't incur the wrath of MichalTalbot if I have my original one fixed up...!

Plus, gsf list one for a C15 van at £84 + VAT + delivery. So no saving to be made there.

After replacing the rad, water pump and many new hoses the engine suddenly performed so much better unsuprisingly. I now need to watch the speed easily reaching 90mph on the motorway. However the new flow of water found a new exit. Through the heater, leaking onto the passenger carpet. Tempory solved by disconecting the heater and joining the hoses in the front bay.

I have had conflicting advice to solve this. Either reconnect the heater and put in Rad Weld or similar. Or take out heater and take to a rad specialist to fix.

Does a rad weld type product 'gunk up' the cooling loop? Bearing in mind I now have a nearly new system this would not be my prefered choice. However I have also been reliably advised that these products are fine, and indeed help with lubricating the water pump.

Any thoughts?

I've always found that these products tend to clog up the radiator and heater matrices and don't provide a permanent repair.  My advice would be don't risk blocking up your nice new radiator, bite the bullet and get it properly fixed before the winter sets in then put in a good concentration of decent antifreeze and change it every two years. 

Thanks Peter,

You confirm my initial thoughts. Do you think a radiator refurb company could solve the leak?

What kind of adjustments?

- Anders

On matramagic page this was written, and I quote.

"The Murena radiator is similar to the Citroen Visa - except that its fitted upside down and has the core of from another car"

In the past moths I readed so many items, and in one of the items sombody fitted this radiator.
Can't find it back, but he told he had to make adjustments to fit the ventilator.
The holes to mount were different.

Also the French forum has this in the alternative parts section.

I also looked at pics of the C15\Visa radiator, and you need the petrol version, not the diesel one.

(http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/4715/radiu9.jpg)

(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/5428/rad2pi4.jpg)

Pffff, took some time to spit trough all my images, but this is a Murena original one.
The fan is fitted different and see it upside down to compare.
(http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/1057/radiateurorgmp8.jpg)
Maybe it is possible to mount the fan from a diesel one.
It has 2 fans in a frame.
(http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/4131/radfannn0.jpg)

edit: picture added

Hi Oetker, thanks for the photos! It's always interesting when people find parts from other cars that fit our belowed Murena's.

Fitting a fan is a simple problem, but what I'm concerned about is the ventilation from the top of the radiator, that goes back to the header tank. In a front engined car like the Visa, there doens't have to be such a hose, as the exit from the thermostat is at level or higher than the thermostat housing (which has a small vent hose exit back to the top of the tank).

Does it have that?

- Anders

For me this is still all theoratical, because have not worked yet on the system.
I studied the item as far info was found, because I want to be prepaired if the system fail.
For instance I know that there are immitation metal radiators for the Visa around €100.
The radiator is upside down and if there is a outlet for overpressure, (NB:think you meaned that), it is on the wrong side.
If the radiar is metal this can't be a problem to put one on.
It is about the same size, so the level wil be ok, if mounted right.

It all sounds a lot of bother, when a new core can be fitted for £110.

Titus, if it is the heater matrix that has sprung a leak then yes, I guess a radiator specialist should be able to refurb it.

Interesting to hear that the car went better after that work. I doubt it was the rad. Water pump?

I've got a heater from the car we took apart not long ago...
Whether it's any good I don't know, but if you like I can ship it to the UK at your cost.
You can then pay me for the unit if it's works  ;)

Regards,
Valdemar

Yes, it definately was the water pump. It failed after giving me plenty of notice and was eventually spraying water out in an arch around the engine bay. Laziness should not have been an option but you live and learn. I guess my membership to the recovery company will be in doubt when renewing next year as this is the third time this year I have needed a flat bed recovery. Twice for the Murena including my engine mount bracket failier and once for my work car.

Thank you very much Valdemar for the offer. I may take you up on that as and when.

Well worth the annual membership!

I recognize the sight of a red Murena on a low-loader!

Well I got my radiator back and its a work of art. New bespoke core, new fins, all brackets removed and rewelded and the whole thing painted black. All for £110.

He also does heater matrices, fuel tanks etc. If anyone needs anything fixed, give me a shout!

Now to put it all back together...

That sounds like an excellent deal!

I'd really, really like to see photos! ;)

Here are some pictures, and afterwards a question...

In all its glory...

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/macaroni12/Image076.jpg)

Nice welds...

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/macaroni12/Image077.jpg)

New fins...

(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/macaroni12/Image078.jpg)

Question: which side of the rad should the fan be on? Towards the front of the car, or poking into the front boot?

Pretty sure it should be on the back but on my way out to the garage to check! :)

Yes. Fan is on the side facing the driver.

Just had a look at my radiator and I will be needing a new one too!  I might take a chance on a C15 one on ebay just now....

Thanks very much for looking. I had a brainstorm and couldn't remember how it was.

Isn't that a diesel rad? I thought it was the petrol ones that fit the Murena.

That looks a good job, how about sharing the details of your rad man with the other UK members.

Sure, Bryan & Sons, 165a Camden Road, Tunbridge Wells, Kent, TN1 2RF
01892 544635.

His shop is down a tiny alleyway, only just wide enough to walk down!

Excellent name for a specialist shop! ;D

Thanks for posting the photos - nice work!

Thing is, I've never seen a son there, only Bryan.

I got the rad hooked up and spent a good hour bleeding the system and I think it is fine.
No more bubbles from the bleed screw, everything gets nice and warm and the cooling fan cuts in, maintaining the temp at a steady 90degrees.
Just got to rivet the front boot back in now and the jobs a good 'un.

I'd always recommend doing this job "from the top" as its only a 5 minute job to whip out the front boot.

When you are getting fed up with rubbing down bodywork the mind wanders to anything that may be more interesting so I also decided to get the radiator sorted.

The alloy core did not look too bad apart from the bottom where the lower fan mount was quite corroded. A local radiator specialist said he would recore the radiator with a conventional brass/copper core (my preferred choice) for £85.00 plus the VAT. He also replaced the top and bottom frames with ones that had captive nuts, I made up a couple of brackets and refitted the original fan.

I will now refit the radiator as soon as I have found some stainless steel wire to make a new cable for the headlight inhibitor mechanism. All more interesting than rubbing down that bodywork!

John

  I would like to re-instate this mechanism on my car but so far haven't managed to find a car with it fitted and working to look at.  Could you let us know how you get on, with photos if possible please?

It's fairly straight forward Peter.  The bonnet lock mechanism should have a pivoting bar that in one position blocks the bonnet release from operating, and when pivoted the other way allows it to work.  So first thing is - is this still fitted?

The cable goes from the lever that is pushed and pulled by the double acting servo that lifts and lowers the light pods.  So when the servo pushes the bar forward, the cable is moved and the pivoting bracket on the bonnet mechanism swings around to block the release.

To take photos you need the nose/bumper off, and although my car has a working system the bumper is obviously fitted!  If John has his apart, maybe he can takes some photos to post here.

Roy

  That was what I was hoping.  I'm particularly interested in how the outside of the Bowden cable is attached at each end.  From my parts book, they appear to use the 'W' shaped spring clips that are used at various places round the car but these don't seem to be easy to obtain so if John or anyone else has a source, or an alternative, I would be interested to hear.

Hi John.

If you haven't mounted the radiator yet, could you tell me its dimentions? I have not had mine out yet, but I am thinking of having it recored like you, or replacing it with a modern alternative, if I can find a match.
I am waiting to tackle this until I order stainless heating and cooling tubes from MatraMagic. What is holding me back is that they want as much in shipping cost, as the pipes cost.  >:(
So I am trying to find a way to get them sent to Denmark cheaper.

Size is here.
http://www.webdealauto.com/m16/NRF/p40492/Radiateur_du_moteur_NRF_57013/product_info.html
Also click the drawing.

Hmm... nice price, definitely worth considering as a preventive replacement!
Unfortunately they only ship to France and Belgium :(

I didn't ask if they still have, but this radiators are running out of stock with most firmes.

I mentioned somewhere before that I had my radiator fully rebuilt by a guy in my town.

He used new cores and fins, using only the original ends and top.

He charged me £100 and it comes fully repainted. Its virtually a new rad.

If anyone is interested, please let me know.

Antony

Hi Pete
I have taken some pictures showing the mechanism at both ends with the bonnet catch end showing the inhibitor on an off and the P clips in place, I have replaced the inner cable with stainless steel mig wire and it seems to OK. I hope the photographs are of some help.

Regards
John

Thanks John, that was exactly what I was after.  I've been looking into the clips and I found these on the site you recommended, http://www.bresco.com/index.html.  They are reference 34730P and look the right sort of shape, but unfortunately no dimensions are given on the website so I cannot be sure.  I have enough applications on my car for it to be worth buying a pack if they would fit.  Does anyone have any views on whether these clips are the correct ones?

If you look closely at the first picture the green P clip is one of the Bresco clips; it did require a bit of careful tweaking but worked OK.

Regards
John

The bonnet lock mechanism should have a pivoting bar that in one position blocks the bonnet release from operating, and when pivoted the other way allows it to work.  So first thing is - is this still fitted?
Just opened up the bonnet catch and no it's not!!! :'(

I just tried to order a new radiator from Kühlerbau Neu-Ulm GmbH. They show it on their web shop for €105, but they replied that it is no longer available.  :(

Does any of you know where it can be purchased still. Preferably cheaper than Simons, who want €260 for it. >:(

Alternative is to have it recored. But is that possiblle when the caps are plastic as they seem to be on mine?

Radiators with plastic ends can have a replacement core fitted.

Regards
John

Now I have bought a Visa radiator for little money, and as far as I can see it the modification is not to difficult.
20 years dust, but he, I paid €25.-
(http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/927/p1010597medium.jpg)
(http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/3550/p1010598medium.jpg)

The inside is nothing wrong.
(http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/6716/p1010599medium.jpg)

The thermocontact is also M22 like the Murena.
(http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/2374/p1010603medium.jpg)

Comparing the radiator with the original, it is the same, but you need to close 1 small inlet and find a solution to mount the ventilator.
This is not very difficult.
(http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/4205/radcompare.jpg)
picture Godfried fellowmember www.matramania.be

Good alternative for the murena radiator.
The Visa GTI and diesel radiator is different and does not fit, so be carefull if you gonna do this to look for the right one.

That new Radiator looks sweet.  :D

What is a "Visa" though. Can you tell me what car it is on and what partnumber it has? And if there are more where yours came from?  ;)

Mounting hte ventilator should not be a problem. If necessary there are kits with strips that go through the radiator and hold the ventilator in place.

What  and where is the small inlet you are talking about? The original has a drain on the bottom left side and an air bleed on the top right side, that connects to the expansion tank in the engine compartment.

Everything looks the same, except for the missing ventilator brackets.

It is for all Citroen Visa from 1980-1988 except diesel and GTI.
See the pictures and you wil see the small pipe on the left wich needs to be closed.
This radiators are found from €70 to €150.
Just look around to find a bargain.

List of cars where they are mounted for sure according to my documentation..
(http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/3148/visaradtypes.jpg)

Super. Thanks. :) :)

Hi Oetker.

Can you tell me if the Visa radiator you bought has a model number like this: MO75 BM309  ??? ???

I can find this model pretty cheap.

Regards.
Jon.

Im my car bible BM309 is the right one.
Can't find MO75

More than one? I would be interested in getting one too.

/Anders

Hi anders.

2 actually according to the list. I will call them tomorrow, but it may be an outdated offer. However, if true, they sell them for 309,00 DKr. (+vat ??) If they have them I will order both immediately and we can split the shipping.

That's a deal!

/Anders

Hi Anders.
Unfortunately that was old information, but that is often the case on Google. :(

The company name was Dybbroe and they cannot help since they no longer stock coolers for Citroen Visa.

OK, I am about to give up on finding a Citroen Visa radiator. Does any of you know a source that is not outrageously expensive?

Alternatively I would like to find a reliable radiator rebuild service in the Copenhagen area, +/- 100 km.  ;) Anyone of you able to recommend a place?

Pity about the missed opportunity... Searching on eBay brings up this one:

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150372967408

and this:

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190332995794

Not expensive, but not exactly very cheap either, especially considering that they will need a bit of work, which I suppose the original radiator from Simon won't.

/Anders

As stated before, I can get them rebuilt, with a brand new, bespoke core for £100.

Need to get it to the UK though.

A rebuild in the Netherlands about €200.

Thanks to all for your help finding radiators.  :)

I don't actually have a problem with the one I have. It's not leaking or defective, but if I could have picked up one as cheap as the one Oetker found, I would have replaced it anyway and kept the old one as spare.

I will probably try to find a local place for a recore, just to check the cost. Haven't found one yet.

Could you tell me a part number which Citroen radiator fits Murena 2.2? Or any other alternative?

OK, I have found.
Sorry...  ::)

I already mounted one.
(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/9366/p1030258medium.jpg)
(http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/7227/p1030259medium.jpg)
(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6541/p1030427medium.jpg)
(http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/7940/p1030428medium.jpg)

Nice job!
Thanks for the photos.

I know this is an old post but is this offer still available?