MatraSport Forum

Each model => Murena => Topic started by: RazorbackNOR on October 08, 2008, 11:53:42 am



Title: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: RazorbackNOR on October 08, 2008, 11:53:42 am
Is there enyone on the forum that has a Murena Turbo, or any pics of engine/enginebay of Murena Turbos....?


Title: Re: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: macaroni on October 08, 2008, 04:38:53 pm
I have a magazine article that tests the Murena Adroite, an English right hand drive turbo conversion. I could try and scan that, but the pics are B&W and, to be honest, there isn't much to look at.

Not much help there, am I?


Title: Re: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: Anders Dinsen on October 08, 2008, 05:14:23 pm
I'm going to be of equally little help ;) The photos I've seen of Murena turbo conversions show very few details: It's just the induction taking up the space with its manifold and fat pipes all over the place. The turbo is well hidden under the exhaust. But I've been told (and find it likely) that a hole must be cut (and a suitable heat shield and new plate welded) in the boot to accomodate the turbo.

Apart from that, it's a bolt-on upgrade, because engine mounts, gearbox, driveshafts etc are the same.


Title: Re: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: eric on October 08, 2008, 05:46:50 pm
Hallo

This is a small site off my Murena, it's only Dutch.
But you can see some pictures'.
You pusch only the heatplate a little bit backwards, and
adjust the gearboxlever a little bit,no big deal.
And you need another clutchplate from a Citroen CX turbo.
It is the easiest conversion.
Under the intercooler I put a stronge fan,and blows down too the
exhaust, it works perfect ,also in a trafficjam.

http://members.chello.nl/d.bruin11/

Eric


Title: Re: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: Anders Dinsen on October 08, 2008, 08:08:49 pm
Eric, it's a real nice car you have you have there, thanks for sharing photos of it. Engine installation looks good 8)

- Anders


Title: Re: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: Matra_Hans on October 08, 2008, 08:30:43 pm
Hi
If you do ot want to get your own hands dirty building a turbo Murena you can bay one on Mobile.de
The asking price EUR 5.200 and that is "Verhandlungsbasis" so the owner is open for offers

hans


Title: Re: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: phil75 on October 08, 2008, 09:26:58 pm
(http://www.matra-club.ch/ZZEbay/agb17.JPG)

(http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/8004/dscf0014na3.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/dscf0014na3.jpg/1/w1280.png) (http://g.imageshack.us/img78/dscf0014na3.jpg/1/)



Title: Re: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: krede on October 09, 2008, 06:47:47 am
I still belive that water/air intercooling is the only suitable solution for a murena.


Title: Re: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: Anders Dinsen on October 09, 2008, 07:29:07 am
I still belive that water/air intercooling is the only suitable solution for a murena.

Will you not have a problem getting cold enough water through your air/water intercooler? If you're taking water from the exit of the radiator, you will only get water through the intercooler when the thermostat is open, and at that time, the water coming out will be cool, but not as cold as the surrounding air?

I do understand that there's a problem getting airflow through the intercoolers, so I'm not implying that you have a problem, just wondering whether the water/air cooler will be better than the air/air?


Title: Re: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: krede on October 09, 2008, 08:34:32 am
I still belive that water/air intercooling is the only suitable solution for a murena.

Will you not have a problem getting cold enough water through your air/water intercooler? If you're taking water from the exit of the radiator, you will only get water through the intercooler when the thermostat is open, and at that time, the water coming out will be cool, but not as cold as the surrounding air?


Water/air intercooler systems use a separate radiator, pump pipes, etc, and NOT the engine coolant.
Its only in very heavy applications (trucks, tanks etc) where a constant environment is of more concern then maximum performance, that the engine coolant is used.


Title: Re: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: RazorbackNOR on October 09, 2008, 09:05:21 am
I have a couple of them myself also


Title: Re: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: RazorbackNOR on October 09, 2008, 09:05:44 am
and....


Title: Re: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: Waldo on October 09, 2008, 09:47:13 am
I'll second that, looks very nice  :)

Though some of the other conversions shown are very bad work I must say!

Cutting the chassis would be an absolute no go for me  :(

If it's doesn't fit or find something that will...


Eric, it's a real nice car you have you have there, thanks for sharing photos of it. Engine installation looks good 8)

- Anders


Title: Re: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: RazorbackNOR on October 09, 2008, 12:12:56 pm
What i can't get my head around is why in the hell did the take the 505Ti engine, and remove both the turbo and injection to fit it in a sportscar....?  ??? ???

I would rather say that the Murena and 505 deserved the added power since it is a sportscar and not a typical familiy saloon.....  ;)


Title: Re: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: Matra_Hans on October 09, 2008, 12:54:32 pm
Matra did not fit a detuned 505 Turbo engine in the Murena. Matra took the engine from the Talbot Tagora, which has exactly the same power output i.e. 115 HP.
Peugeot happened at a later date to select the same engine for their 505 turbo project, as the cast ion block was considered strong enough for their plans for  tuning for racing. The final track versions of the 505 had more than 500 HP.
The Peugeot 505 was also available with an all aluminium 2,2 engine (505 Gti) but that is a completely different engine, which the engineers did not consider suitable for wild tuning.

Hans


Title: Re: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: Matra_Hans on October 09, 2008, 12:56:32 pm
... the first american version of the 505 turbo had only 155 HP!!


Title: Re: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: RazorbackNOR on October 09, 2008, 02:07:30 pm
Somebody should blow the dust of the old plans and now make the Murena V12  ;D ;D
Or make the "NEW" Murena sportscar!!


Title: Re: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: RazorbackNOR on October 13, 2008, 07:05:07 pm
Should had gotten hold of an wrecked 505Ti, delivered the engine to a tuner and gotten him to draw all that was possible out of it before fitting it on the Murena  ;D


Title: Re: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: michaltalbot on October 13, 2008, 09:11:20 pm
Years ago, I though about using the 2,2 Turbo engine for my Tagora. I bought some Peugeot 505 Turbo and demounted the engine. It wasn't as nice as I wanted to have reliable unit, so I started to search for new piston set. They are bimetalic and the price is arround 1000,- Eur/set without rings. Than I closed the bonnet and sold this car to one Peugeot unthusiast  ;) It doesn't make sense to use an old and not-perfect engine for this very difficult project. But complete renovation of N9TE is a nonsense because of the prices of all.


Title: Re: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: krede on October 14, 2008, 05:46:36 am
Years ago, I though about using the 2,2 Turbo engine for my Tagora. I bought some Peugeot 505 Turbo and demounted the engine. It wasn't as nice as I wanted to have reliable unit, so I started to search for new piston set. They are bimetalic and the price is arround 1000,- Eur/set without rings. Than I closed the bonnet and sold this car to one Peugeot unthusiast  ;) It doesn't make sense to use an old and not-perfect engine for this very difficult project. But complete renovation of N9TE is a nonsense because of the prices of all.
I agree to some extend... but all engine tuning/swapping is expensive, and I would not go through the trouble of sapping and engine if I was not sure it was in good condition.

However I would (and am going to) use some of the N9TE parts for fitting a turbo on a normal murena engine instead.
And as for parts. It is now possible to have forged pistons made for less then 200 euro's a piece... and these is much stronger then the ones used by Peugeot back in the 80's


Title: Re: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: eric on October 14, 2008, 05:28:27 pm
 ;) Don't forget that the N9tea engine had a bigger oilflow threw the bearings, and the turbo needs oil too,exhaustvalve's are sodium cooled , other compression, other ignition etc ...
It is not that easy as you think to use an normal 2,2.


Eric


Title: Re: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: michaltalbot on October 14, 2008, 08:34:39 pm
yes, and also there are thin pipes between exhaust manifold and cyl.head = there is bigger diametter of all exhaust holes in the cyl.head. In the engine block, there is a special hole for oil pipe - for turbo bearings. I think that building the Turbo engine on standart 2,2 is impossible, I mean that the result will be absolutely unreliable.


Title: Re: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: krede on October 14, 2008, 11:22:15 pm
Quote
Don't forget that the N9tea engine had a bigger oilflow threw the bearings, and the turbo needs oil too
Accomplished by a different relief spring for the oil pressure...all other parts are the same.
The oil for the turbo is taken from a hole in the block that is simply plugged in the murena... an easy task drilling it out and fitting the n9te banjo bolt.

Quote
exhaustvalve's are sodium cooled
Only on the very first engines..all the later "TE" and the most powerful "TEA" engines have standard solid exhaust valves.

Quote
other compression
Hence the forged pistons.. the con rods and crank are the same.

Code:
other ignition etc

I agree with you on that point... however... my car is already fitted with fuel Injection and a programmable engine ECU.. so it will just be the matter of adding the extra couple of sensors and have it all run in again.

Quote
and also there are thin pipes between exhaust manifold and cyl.head = there is bigger diametter of all exhaust holes in the cyl.head
Indeed... I saw that on Hans's engine. I have no Idea why these pips are there, but I have heard from people using the Peugeot manifold on the murena with no proplems.. and even of murena heads used in Pug's..
I take it , thats its just a matter of grinding the recesses in the manifold down to smooth it out..should not pose any problems as all.

Quote
I mean that the result will be absolutely unreliable.
If anything the superior pistons, and better ECU programming, will make it More reliable then a standard 505TI.Pistons always seemed to be one one of the Ti's weak spots. Especially if overboosted.
And the peugeot injection was just a big bowl of spaghetti with "piggy bagging " control boxes everywhere.. just ask Matra Hans.

If done properly, I have no doubt that the standard Murena 2.2 parts, with the mentioned alterations will easily produce 200 reliable horsepowers.
If cooling/intercooling is adequate, and revs are kept below 6000/rpm
In the end its (as with every kind of tuning) a matter of being realistic, and not go too far... as is often the case... ESPECIALLY with regards to turbos.. where some people just tend to turn up the boost without any other modifications.







Title: Re: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: Oskar on October 15, 2008, 09:27:55 am
ive used 3 505 turbos and on 2 of them the head cracked between 2 and 3 exhaustvalves.  This head has not diagonal cooling of the head, it comes in and out on the same side.
also the headgasket is design with larger and smaller holes to force the waterroute.  crap if I may say.
but politechnic had a nice head with smaller sparkplugholes and could get 500hp even without porting the head.  :o

I also think the comp is to low, 1:7.5

go for a modern engine  ;)


Title: Re: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: eric on October 15, 2008, 10:47:50 am
Yes I agree ,go for an modern engine, I have now the turbo version N9TEA,but I want an other engine.
Something more realible , like alfa V6 or VW VR6 . peugeot  MI  16.
Also the spare parts are drying up for the N9TEA.

But I have to say, when you get used to the extra power, you never want to go back
for less power, it is real kicking  when you push the trottle.


  Eric


Title: Re: Pics of Murena Turbo
Post by: krede on October 15, 2008, 10:02:58 pm
Yes I agree ,go for an modern engine, I have now the turbo version N9TEA,but I want an other engine.
Something more realible , like alfa V6 or VW VR6 . peugeot  MI  16.
Also the spare parts are drying up for the N9TEA.

But I have to say, when you get used to the extra power, you never want to go back
for less power, it is real kicking  when you push the trottle.


  Eric

I am aware that the engine is not flawless.. and believe me I would prefer a v6... especially the Vr6.
But for price and ease of build, The Pug Turbo is the best option... as well as its by far the least intrusive.