MatraSport Forum

Hi.
I have just been at the MoT inspection place in order to get my newly imported Espace registered in Denmark.
However I ran into one problem: In order to get the Danish road tax and import duty correct I need some kind of official document that states the mileage of a 1998 Espace DT.
As the Espace models manufactured by MATRA never were officially imported to Denmark the vehicle is not in the database, which the MoT staff is using.

Can anybody help or give me some advice?

Thanks in advance.

Hans

....and silly me that was under the impression that Norway is the absolute most troublesome country when it comes to cars (+ most any things) and all the money they are suppose to generate for the community through our wallets :-X

Are they looking for some sort of confirmation of the total mileage of the vehicle and will not accept the mileage shown on the odometer/display?
Or are they looking for manufacturer's stated fuel consumption figures?

If it is the recorded mileage I wonder if they would accept a printout of the data download from the car's computer from a Renault dealer as being "official" enough if you took it in for them to hook up to their CLIP diagnostic system?

Alternatively is there any chance of getting any previous "MOT" certificates or service history documents from the previous owner or dealer in Germany that would evidence the mileage at that time and which would help confirm as correct, the current mileage indicated on the display?

Martin

@ Martin

Hans is looking for the fuel consumption figures...

Often called mileage in Denmark, so that the reason for the unclear question  ;)

Found something on the web, though it's not an official document it might be helpfull:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/used_car_reviews/article1075280.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/driving/used_car_reviews/article1075280.ece)

According to this the avg. fuel consumption is 35.8 mpg equal to 12.7 km/l

Not bad at all for a big MPV  ;D

And congratulations on your new car... I really like the 3rd generation Espace.

OK... understood  :)

I just checked my Phase 3 driver's handbook to see if the fuel consumption figures are quoted but unlike some manufacturer's, Renault don't seem to quote such information within the driver's manual.

I also looked in a Phase 3 sales brochure I still have. Although this does give the fuel consumtion figures it's dated April 2002 and so unfortunately has the figures for the 2.2dCi engine and not the earlier 2.2dt but it would seem that an older sales brochure may be a source of "official" fuel consumption figures that may satisfy the MoT authorities.
Possibly someone else on the forum still has an old brochure or alternatively they are sometimes listed for sale on e-Bay.
I just looked and there's currently an original phase 3 catalogue listed on e-Bay in France..... item number 320315986305.

Martin

Will they accept the figures from the sales brochures?

This is the only place I can think of where these figures would be easily available unless someone has a certificate of conformity for that model Espace, of which they could supply a copy.


Sounds like bureaucracy again!  I bet there are other Espace like yours already in the country.  So therefore they would already have the figures, but they can't be bothered to check for them, or have a list with which to cross reference.

I have a series three sales brochure but it is too new for yours as it covers the common rail diesel, so the fuel figures are not correct for your engine.  Does anyone else have a sales brochure for that year?  Maybe someone on the Matra Passion site may have a copy or records?

Roy

I may have the sales brochure for the 1998 2.2dt - I will check as soon as I am back in the UK.

For the record, in 2005 I managed to persuade the Danish authorities to convert my 2002 2.2dci's claimed 39.8 mpg (14.09km/l) to "14.1km or better", which saved me a fair bit on the danish roadtax as that moved it into the next band.

I hope this will enable other owners of the same model (Std Espace, 2.2dci Sep 2002)  to save the same. Danish to-be-owners are welcome to contact me for details.


/Lennart

My experience is that the danish authorities only accept an official document from Renault. In practice, this means that Hans the "CoC-document", Certificate of Conformity. This is an EU document listing the specifications for the particular car. Renault in Germany will happily supply it (I think they have to as per EU rules) to any current owner. It has a funny name in German: "Übereinstimmungsbescheinigung"  - try saying that!

Depending on the age of Hans' car the CoC may not list the fuel consumption figures, however. These were only mandatory to list in Germany after a certain date. I think it's 1999, but I'm not sure. Denmark changed the road tax to be fuel consumption based in july 1997 (before that it was based on weight), but the numbers only turn up in the CoC documents in Germany some time later.

I had this issue with my first Espace from 1997 - it does not list the fuel consumption in the COC, whereas our current (from 2001) does.

I don't think Hans will be able to persuade the MoT-guy to use a sales brochure figure, but it's always worth trying of course. Otherwise they will calculate a figure from engine size and weight of the car.

- Anders

Hi
The MoT guy said to me that if the fuel consumption had been mentioned in the "owners manual" they would have accepted this. Unfortunately this is not mentioned in the manual.  Therefore I think that MoT will accept a copy of the sales brochure. Will anybody be able to scan and mail a copy to me?

I will (I hope) get at copy of the German CoC document soon, but if the fuel consumption is not mentioned in the document this will not help.

But I know from advertisement of cars for sale that there already are vehicles similar to my Espace registered in Denmark, but according to the MoT guy, they are not able to trace the data!

Hans

Here is attached a German version stating consumption + more

Hey Hans.... are you waiting until it is "officially" yours with an MoT before changing your profile text to read

"Owner of Bagheera, Rancho & Murena ... and now Espace"?

So, which model of Matra do you have in mind next to add to your collection?

Martin

Hi
I printed the German leaflet and passed the MoT workshop. They are happy to accept the figures in the leaflet, as it is an official Renault document.
So thank you all for your support and advice.

However I got one more problem to solve before my Espace is MoT approved: The vehicle failed the pollution test, which I understand is common for a diesel-powered car.
I had driven the Espace 800 km from the dealer in Germany at rather high speeds i.e. 150+km/t all the way, so I expected this to be sufficient to "blow out the soot from the exhaust system But after arraiving in Denmark we had been driving some trips in Denmark at "normal" speed and at the MpT workshop I let the Espace run at idle for 10 minutes while waiting. Result much too much particles in the exhaust.
Now I have added some additive to the fuel in order to clean the engine and the exhaust. Before the next MoT I will take a trip up and down the motorway in low gear with high revs before going the MoT workshop (which is situated 100m from the motorway).

Once again thanks for your support.

Hans

Hi Hans,

As you know I'm mainly a Diesel guy... normally the MOT tester will allow for a few tests, as it's very common to have excess soot trapped in the exhaust system.
Whether you wan't your car rev'd high without load multiples times, should be your call... (depending on the total miles your car have done, please check timing belt before hand)

Besides this, you should look for a MOT center that doesn't feel like doing the soot test unless the car blows visible black smoke when pulling hard at max throttle!

The test is in my opinion very poorly designed, and only done because they have no better alternative.
Fortunately you do come across some mot inspectors that share my point of view  ;D

I once had a argument with the danish "faerdselstyrelsen" over this test, and it turns out the inspector is supposed to do a list of checks before soot testing the car.
Though at my latest mot test, the inspector did the test as the very first thing.

The list incl. checks as:
Engine oil level
Normal engine temp.
No visible oil leaks from the engine

Plus a few more points I can't remember... funny enough I have seen an inspector check the oil level  ;)

Hi Waldo
Can you recomend any special preparation for the diesel engine before the inspection / test?

My description above is as the MoT guy told me was a way to get the vehicle through the test.

Before the first test of my Espace I did not do any preparation or repair at all, I just showed up at the MoT workshop with the car in the condition in which I collected it in Germany.

Hans

Well... the method you mention will probably work. But from my point of view it's sad that you have to stress the engine unnecessary (low gear / high revs) to get it through inspection.

I was told to do the same thing, which was the reason why I complained about the test and the mot inspector.

An old trick is to adjust the throttle cable or fuel pump so that it will not take full revs!

Apart from that most of the soot is caught in the exhuast pipe and silencer so it shouldn't take much spirited driving to clean up the system.

Do you know which values you got?
My Toyota 2.2 TD from 1998 with 345.000km needed to have the test done twice. 1st showed around 3%, 2nd 1.4%. Though I can't remember the exact numbers.
The tests where done with 5 seconds in between.
I believe the limit is 2% for a turbo diesel, though I'm not sure.

Otherwise the sure thing is to physically clean the exhuast pipe and silencer, but that's a rather big task.

I would give a good run at >3000 rpm on the motorway, and a few quick accelerations.
If the test is passed then, ask him to do a 2nd.
And ak him what he thinks of the test method at the same time  ;)

Good luck...

Hi
The limit for my Espace is 3%. I gues that different years has different values.

The first test gave 10% and after a couple of tests the value dropped to 6%, so there was still a long way to go.

I agree with you the test is meaningless, and damaging for the engin.

regards HANS

One thing to consider id the quality of the oil. Due to the nature of the diesel engine it is not long before the oil is contaminated with carbon! I allways flush my engine oil until the oil if clean of any carbon deposits. Sometimes it takes two or three changes to achieve this. See if you can get any 'Forte' injector cleaner & run this neat directly into the pump & return into the container untill it is all used.

Hi
My Espace passed the MoT today.
I took the rather radical approach and installed a new exhaust pipe from the cat and back. I got the exhaust system (Walker) from kfzteile24 in Berlin for app. 250€. The old exhaust system will be reinstalled immediately, and the new “pipe” will be stored for the next MoT inspection 2 years from now.
I also added some diesel engine cleaning fluid to the diesel, and then took the Espace for fast run up and down of the motorway.
During this motor way run I got a shock: As I was approaching 160 km/h in 4th gear the engine stalled. I was already thinking of how to get hold of a tow car. However the only problem was that the rev-limiter had cut in, which it does in a rather brutal way.

Hans

Hooray, Hans! Congratulations :)

- Anders