MatraSport Forum

Hi all, I havent been on the Matra Forum for a long time but finally I have my Murena on the road after over 4 years with a blown engine!
Dilemma : Do I scrap the car or fit an alternative engine? I love the car, so..........
Solution.......... fit a 2.0 Ford Zetec!
Advantage: Ford and Matra were partners in the dim and distant past so I am not being too unfaithful! Parts are easily available and best of all it has more torque and is more tuneable than the original 2.2! I currently am running the standard injection system and have dynoed at 156bhp using a Megasquirt 1 V3.0 for spark and ignition. With throttle bodies and 'hot' cams these engine are easily capable of over 200bhp. For the ultimate you could either turbo or supercharge it easily too!
Final advantage........ the insurance has come down too!
Amazingly, the engine and gearbox fits without much body modification though it IS tight!
I have used a mixture of Ford inner driveshaft couplings and Matra outboard. The Fuel tank has been custom made (approx 75 litres) and moved to the front. She passed the British MOT test  last week without any advisories on the first attempt too!
The conversion has not been cheap (probably more than the car is worth) but I intend to keep my Murena for many years so its worth it! If anyone wants the details of the engineer who did most of the work I will gladly pass his details on! ;D Happy driving ahead!!!!!!

Being owner of another engine transplanted Murena (XU9AJ/k Peugeot 205gti 1.9) I can't see such an operation as unfaithful at all. And as you say, Matra and Ford already are linked, so even purists should be able to read about your car without spilling their tea :-)

The most important thing is that you have got your car on the road again (congratulations at that) - and using a more modern engine with easier access to parts only helps to keep it there.

I would love to see some pictures of your car - you can either upload them in a post here, or send them to me at lennart@matrasport.dk  then I can create a separate gallery under Murena conversions (where you'll find mine here: http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Murena/Conv/P1.9i-8v-ls/index.html )

/Lennart

I have no love for the standard 2.2 lump either! :)
I find it weak, leaky, rough and from what i hear.. prone to "blow up"... seriously... for such a small amount of cars I am amazed that so many have either blown the engine or cracked the cylinder head ( the bottom end on waldos spare parts car had completely disintegrated)   

OF CAUSE POOR MAINTENANCE has a large say in this.. but still.

My only major concerns regarding engine swaps, is the sheer amount of work involved, and whether you will be able to "undo" the "damage" at a later point.


ps: I to, would love to see some pictures of your conversion :)

   

I am very curious!
I demand pictures! ;)

p.s. love your white wheels!

Hate the white wheels :) and I usually hate all things F*rd  :( but I could be easily persuaded to use a Zetec engine as a replacement for the 1960's lump in the middle of my murena!

I would like an Alfa V6 but that seems to be an even more fragile option than the 2.2!

We need pictures and details of how it was made to fit!

PS No one tell Michal ;)

Hi all and thanks for your interest and support - I will take some photos tomorrow and send them to you Lennart.

Blowing off the 2,2 engine has everytime only one reason - bad maintenance! When I drive my 2,2S I am using it with no mercy and very often I see my needle atacking the red zone, because my friends are using M-B SLK 55 AMG, Ford Focus ST, Nissan 350Z and Audi TT. All of them are amazed by the sound of my Matra and on our trips for karting, for meetings, etc. I really don't feel some missing power.
I understand, that some Ford, Mazda or Alfa engine will offer more power, more speed, better acceleration, but you have to understand, that with different engine it's not Matra for more, but some kind of bastard. For example: somebody will be interested by your car, you will open the engine cover and he will ask: "wow, it has the Ford Zetec?" and what you will answer? "Yes, but it's not original, I changed it, because old engine was weak..." Well what will remained in his mind? - Matra is a nice car, but needs a Ford engine to run, because original engine was a trash  :(
I don't mind the conversion to Peugeot engine, because that is the way how it could be in possible future, but Ford, Wankel or Alfa engine in Matra? Why to hell???

quote Michael.
----------------
Why?
=================
Answer to that is simple.
The 2.2 engine parts are possible to find, but if you revive the engine it cost you dearly.
Why not find a good alternative that has plenty of parts available?
If I leave my car sleeping, the engine will go for the next 25 year to come.
But that is not what we want, we want this beautifull car to drive!
Therefore I am always glad to see that someone comes up with a solution.

I like to have the details too Matranut.
If you want, pass them to manusie@gmail.com , I would be greatfull.
Thanks in advance

Oetker

Personally, I'd go for originality.  If I wanted modern sports car performance, I'd buy a modern sports car.  That said, it's much better to fit a non-original engine than see a car go off the road.  I'm intrigued as to why you chose the Ford, rather than go down the more well trodden path of the 1.9 Peugeot.  It would have given you almost as much power and probably weighs less.

I agree that usually a blown engine IS due to poor maintenance however, in this case it was because I accidentally changed down too early and threw the engine to over 8000rpm! To be honest I was suprised the gearbox took the gear - unfortunately it did! Hence............ BANG! Broken piston, bent and/or snapped valves and a cracked cylinderhead! Oh the joys of track days!
Of course originality is great but I still believe it is better to keep the car on the road with the 'Matra' badge on the back so people can admire our lovely cars!

Yep... too many revs will kill an engine every time. The stresses placed upon the engine components as piston speed increases are tremendous!

And as for choice of engine?.. well..The major reason to use the pug engines is due to their inlet/exhaust/gearbox layout, that permits the fuel tank to stay in the engine compartment.... other than that..... as soon as you take an angle grinder to the chassis, originality is out the window... so in that respect the zetec is as good an engine as any.... in fact its probably a better choice than most since its so widely used in kit cars, so spares and performance parts should be readily available, and at a reasonable price.

Personally I would probably have gone for something more "exotic" If I were to make a complete swap... like the alfa v6 option... with a set of throttle bodies (for the sound)... but I am confident that a zetec is the better,faster, and much much cheaper, choice for track days and such.:)
As of now I am going with the pug 505 turbo engine option instead :)

But hats off for your work...(still wanna see those pictures), that your car passed the mot outright, suggests that you know what your are doing :)


ps: Don't let michal scare you... he is really a nice guy... he just loves Talbot's too much ;)
 

I have sent a short write up and some photos to Lennart so hopefully he will publish them to everyone soon.
I chose the Zetec after trying the Opel/Vauxhall 2.0 Red Top (turned out to be a duff engine) and also the V6 duratec - it wont fit without serious chassis mods! In the future I will definitely move to throttlebodies and maybe, just maybe, a supercharger! The supercharger for the BMW Mini regularly come up on good old ebay and are relatively cheap too! The great thing is.... the megasquirt ignition and fuelling ECU can manage just about anything you throw at it!
my car is quite heavily modified in other areas like the interior too - I value function over form when it comes to track days - next will be polycarbonate windows!
Thanks for all your comments - good and not so good - all are welcome! ;D

Hi Krede,

I thought the pug 1.9 engine would fit wíthout modifying the chassis?
That would be my first priority with any engine swap! Even then Alfa V6 will fit without mods to the 2.2 chassis.. even though it's tight, real tight!

ive understand that 2.2 is more suited for rwdengine converts and 1.6 is suited for fwd engines such as the peugeot 1.9 8v or 16v.
Im thinking of doing the same, change engine to a peugeot  :-\

and I would like som pictures to  ;D

Waldo: Yahh.. something like that.. I guess the 1.6 Murena and 1.9 pug engines share a mount point.. so the install is less trouble some.. but you tell me!! :)

However, my bet is that with a bit of skill you could still get a different engine into a murena without having to cut and weld..

Please full of pictures of this assembly

One reason is that changing a 1.6 Murena to a 1.9 is fairly easy but owing to the 2.2 chassis being different, more work is involved modifying the chassis, so if you are going to modify more, why not choose something else?

As for others that have speculated that a blown engine is due to poor maintenance, that can be a major factor yes, but I am now of the opinion that the 2.2 cylinder head is of such poor quality that it corrodes away and cracks, rather than the other way of being overheated and then cracking.  So even if you maintain it correctly it could eventually let you down.  It may take longer, and it is a shame since whilst the engine has it's faults - low power in standard trim, leaks oil easily if not used regularly and cared for, heavy flywheel as it was built for a saloon car, etc. it is also a lovely engine to use when slightly tuned as with the 'S' or equivalent, having lots of torque and instant pick up, a generally strong bottom end (unless you take it too high! 8000 rpm indeed!) and reasonable consumption for a carburettor engine.

Don't forget, Matra wanted the all alloy fuel injected Renault 2 litre originally, and having driven behind that engine in my Espace I can see why, it is a smooth, quick and light engine and I'm sure it would have suited the Murena well.  However, it was not to be...

Well done to Tim for getting another Murena back on the road.  I hope to see you at a club meeting in it soon.

Roy

And for taking a Mondeo off it  ;D

HA HA HA HA!!  ;D


I wonder if the Pug 505 heads were better.?

Thanks for the quips about Mondeo's - great! Thanks also to Roy for your comments - I hope to be at the next meeting in Norfolk.
On a different note - the only problem so far has been the driveshafts which have started to 'click' after about 940 miles - I am sure Tom (my mechanic) and I will have it sorted by the next meeting  - I am intending to drive to Croatia for a holiday in August so must conquer these minor problems now.
I have sent some photos and a write-up to Lennart so hopefully he will publish them soon. If anyone else wants them please send me your e-mail address and I will gladly forward photos to you.

Roy, you probably remember the failed cylinder head I had bought cheaply on eBay when you were here? I think that proves your point since it had no signs of over heating, yet had small holes of corrosion around the water channels on the exhaust side. It was obviously not overheated at all. It needs dentists work to be welded back in shape.

I can post some photos of this particular case if anyone is courious.

/Anders

I have some experience with modified driveshafts... You need to be carefull to get the correct length.
It's a long story, but I rebuild the driveshafts for a Alfa V6 conversion, as the shafts were to short.

I think it's to much to post my info here, but you can send me a pm if you think you could details of my experience.

Hi Waldo,
Thanks but I think we have found the problem! I feel REALLY daft! After changing/making and lengthening/shortening 6 driveshafts we noticed that one of the infamous anti-rattle springs was broken on the drivers side caliper! Fixed up a temporary repair - no clicking! As Homer Simpson always says......... DOH!!!!!!

Sorry for having taken so long to get this done - it was partly because I have been busy, but then I also forgot - which doesn't help :)

Tim sent me a word document, which I have crudely converted to HTML and put available in the Murena conversions section here:

http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Murena/Conv/t.boyes/index.html

/Lennart

Awesome!! we need more of these stories on the site ! :).. (well.. if michael will let us ;) )

I'm not a judge and everybody has his own responsibility. This night i had a dream - i was driving something like MS670 on the circuit. so today, i browsed through a lot of pictures of Matra race cars and have seen pictures from Mortefontaine in 1997. Behind the MS120 there is a group of Murenas - all of them are in the original condition. It really looks like Matra meeting. When there will be more and more conversions, tunings and other ways of making "anything else" but not nice Murena, than one day the Matra meeting will be anything else but not Matra meeting.
I don't mind about your converted cars, but still couldn't understand why you are doing this just to a Matra? When i sold my silver 2,2 for cca 5000,-Eur 3 years ago, i was thinking what else to buy? I decided again for Murena, simply because i love the car, the history of Matra and its spirit, which is in this car. If you don't like a Murena, if you don't care about the real feeling of driving the product of all Matra engineers, than i understand it...

I understand your sentiment Michal, but the discussion on originality is always a matter of discussion. I agree with you when it comes to major design modifications though.

But the nice, original looking Murena's you saw on the Mortefontaine pictures may have had unoriginal steering-wheels, wheels or engines.

My car was a 1.6 which originally had steel rims, which in my case were almost rusted away, which is why I opted for new alloys, and I don't regard that as a major step away from originality. I could have obtained a set of 2.2 alloys, but they are so difficult to keep clean, when you drive the car every day.

My Peugeot 205gti engine was put in because I had a long list of things that had gone wrong with the old engine (cracked clutch housing, gearbox in need of major overhaul) - but had Matra continued the Murena, I am quite confident the XU9JA engine would have made it into the car anyway.

I will be the first to admit my car isn't truely 100% original - however if you look at it from a distance, it looks fairly original, and it is in a state where it can be used everyday and thus keep the world aware of the brand.

Having said that, I am glad we have originality-enthusiasts like you to remind us all  :-)

/Lennart

Yes, i agree with this, i think that if Murena had been produced longer, the 1,6 would be replaced by Peug 1,9 16V and 2,2 would be replaced by 2,2 Turbo or better new produced 2,2 16V (also with Turbo?).

I think the pug 505 turbo would be the obvious choice of engine as it would have been extremely easy to fit.
I'm sure it would have come with a special body kit that allowed for more air into the engine compartment and possibly an intercooler.

However.. I have little doubt that the engine that WOULD most likely have made it into the Murena, given time, would have been the Pvr V6.... its more prestigious with a couple of extra cylinders. ;)

But I agree ,so some extend , with Michal.. at the time will come where we would all wish that our cars were 100% stock...... but not yet ;)   

I'm sure there will be enough original Murena's around to satisfy demand. At the moment, the Murena is still a fun car, but the chassis (and body) often lasts longer than the engines, and since the engine is relatively rare (at least the 2.2), I don't find it strange that people replace them.

As with Lennarts car.

But originality will always have a value, and it has too now. I don't think any one should fear the world running out of original Murena's.

As for the discussion about what engines Matra would have fitted if they had continued the production of the Murena, I find it quite 'academic' ;)

Cheers,
Anders

Guesing...Renault engine 8)

I can see I have stirred a hornets nest here! All I can say is.............. IF replacement cylinderheads and various other parts were still readily available at sensible money I would have kept my lovely car original but sadly thats not the case, so..................

Anders’ and Roy’s comments about corrosion in the Murena 2.2 cylinder head makes me wonder if Peugeot/ Talbot had any special specification or requirements for the coolant fluid? I know that some manufactures requires that only their own coolant fluid is used in their engines.

Hans

At the end of the day the 2.2 is (and was) an ancient engine forced on Matra against their wishes.  When running well and tuned to 142 spec it is still quite a nice lump.  As a "sportscar" engine though (even in the 80's) it would not be anyone's first choice.

I respect "originality" but most of us would like a murena on the road with an engine that is reliable and performs like it should.

I run Alfas and Fiats day to day and if any of their engines went bang because they hit 8K revs by accident......

I don't agree with this, because I have some historic materials, that Matra ingeneers first wanted this Chrysler engine into a M530, there are pictures when they fitted the 1,8 engine instead of V4 Ford. But because it must have been placed longitudialy, there were no place arround and also it was too heavy. But in Murena, where is a lot of place and engine was placed transversely it was a simple choice. And in 1980 its power, grip and top speed was far better than at concurents.
I think that some of these conversioners and tunners wants to have a modern sport car, some of them are making a Ferrari from Murena or wants to drive a Murena like "Impreza WRX", and it's a nonsense - Murena is 30 years old classic car! Simply explanation is, that they want to have something different for what they don't have money - and that's vexatious  ::)

Sorry Michael but I think you are really off the mark here! I am very sure that the majority of owners including me, would like to keep their cars original but it simply isnt possible or in many cases practical at sensible cost. If we all had many thousands of spare cash we could all have perfect cars - this is not true life for most of us! We love the cars and want to keep them on the road so have to do what we need to do to achieve that. Sure, in my case I have chosen a more modern engine but the overall cost of the conversion was more than my car is actually worth in the UK! I could have bought another Murena with the cost of the conversion but what to do with the first one?? Surely even you have to agree it is better to keep the car on the road than scrap it?

Everything is possible (there is still a lot of Tagora engines for very low price) but using a modern engine in the old sports car is the same like destruction of it, it's not a Matra anymore, it's not a new car, so what is it? You are right - your car has now very low value, because it is an old car, but not an original piece, so what to do with it?

I can see your point but in fact I believe my car is actually now more likely to receive better attention (in the UK) from potential Matra owners BECAUSE it has a modern, more fuel efficient engine with readily available parts to keep it easily on the road. You say the Tagora engine is easily available (perhaps in your country it is) but perhaps you are not aware that it was recently reported that in UK there are only 5, yes 5 Tagoras still registered - engine availability is therefore hopeless! At the end of the day my car is useable, should be reliable and apart from the fact that it has slightly more power than an original 'S' is still basically the same car and with Matra's connection with Ford in days gone by, I believe, not too far from a sensible option of modification. I am happy with it and thats all that matters!

I think you two should simply agree to DISagree :)

I totally concur - it was fun though!! ;)

Quote Michael
----------------
your car has now very low value, because it is an old car, but not an original piece.
====================================================

It has low value now, and for the next 3 generations to come it will stay that way.
By that time I am at the other side of the gras.
If you have a Murena to hope it gets some value, you wil be disapointed.
This cars are not realy wanted.

Tagora engines are nowhere to find.
I can find a 2.2 Murena engine more easyly then a Tagora engine.
If you want this cars to drive for the next decennia, then the engine has to go in time.
Mine is still running fine, but can die tomorow.
Then there are 2 options if you can't find another engine.
1 scrap it
2 try to get it running with an alternative engine.

Matter of choices

Where is the problem with 2,2 engine? I bought my Murena with totally damaged engine, one piston was missing, there was a hole in one cylinder, etc. If you have the cyl.block than you can make new unit very easily - cyl.head? Is sometimes on e-bay (for 150 - 300,-E) or you can buy one from Peugeot 2,2 TI. Camshaft? I sent it to Belgium for renovation and they sent me renovated piece back for 200,-E. Pistons - very often on e-bay for 90,-E. Crankshaft - renovation is possible, bearings also aren't problem. There is sometimes to sell a Tagora 2,2 for less than 500,-E on e-bay, or leboncoin.fr or anciennes.net or simcannonces or ... at this times when world is too small because of the internet, when is possible to make everything, is unbelievable that somebody can say "it's not possible"...
When you're using good oil (Simca aime Shell ;) ) and if you don't have problem with cooling, than this engine is very reliable and able to make 500.000km with no problem (as my Tagora GLS did, only timing chain and valve seals had to be changed in cca 200.000km).
I don't have Murena for its value, because I won't sell it - never! I have it for that special feeling when I'm driving it - on the circuit or for daily driving on summer, or on the way for 1000km to Matra meetings in Germany or France...

Yep, this engines are ok, but cilinderheads are nowhere to find, or you have to pay dearly.
Don't forget, the Tagora was used with a different  style of driving.
Murena 2.2 engines don't hold that long, but 2-300.000 is possible if you keep it in shape, and keep an eye on the rpm.

I've managed to pick up two spare cylinder heads in the two years I've had my murena... that makes four in total with the one on the car and the one on my turbo engine... so they CAN be found..

But I still have very little love for the 2.2 lump be it standard or tuned, and I understand why people are not willing to fork out the huge amounts of cash it takes to properly rebuild a 2.2.
If I had the skill and time to do a proper swap I too would probably go for a different engine if mine bought the farm tomorrow... but I don't, and besides the Danish legislations are "troublesome" regarding engine swaps.... to say the least..

But that said... I wouldn't tear out the three original seats and install two racing in stead... I wouldnt fit a a huge 747 wing at the back, a "ferrari bonnet" or "modern" alloy wheels... etc etc...
My point is.. that people have bought the car... and as such are allowed to do to it what they want!!!..... and each of us has a "limit" as to what we think is "acceptable" modifications... (aftermarket gear nob anyone??.. steering wheel replaced??)
 Mr.Dinsen for instance... fits parts to his car that he has bought in Biltema.. something I would never do.
Yet I fit fuel injetion and throttlebodies... while he think that twin carbs suit the car much better... who is right??

The steering wheel and gearstick I changed the first day I had the car.
In driving with the old stuff, it made me think at the rubber stuff used in SM cellars :P
The ferrarie hood has one big advantage.
No more steamy windows, and no window heater needed in winter.
In time I will get rid of all nags the car has, therefore some original things has to go.
I want this car to drive the way I want it.

Don't get me wrong, at first site it wil always be a murena.

Of course - to implant next 2 hands could also have only advantages, but than you will look like a spider  :) and not like a human, the same is with Murena.

After some time with a Belgium owner sold to Classic trader for around 4000 Euro.
Now for much more for sale here.

http://link.marktplaats.nl/m890189475

It's all biz, but I think it will not sell for some time.
This cars are not in the market overhere.

Herman

Roy.
Earlier in this thread you wrote that Matra had originally wanted the fuel injected Renault 2 engine for the Murena.
Would this engine fit the Murena without major modifications to engine mounts? Also, which transmission was to have been used?
Just curious  ;D
/Jon

Some people over here build in a Peugeot 1.9 GTI engine, but you need the 1.6 for that.
In all cases I know, they used the gearbox that comes with the engine.

Done bij Carjoy.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lur3NqDtzBk

Anther example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO08VuK2GtU

Herman

According to Andre Dewael's Murena book, Matra intended to use the Douvrin engine (moteur J6) in its 2l version.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douvrin_engine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douvrin_engine)

This engine was used in the Citroën CX 20 and the Matra archive pictures in the book show a Douvrin engine with a CX sump (e.g. includes the support for the prop shaft ball bearing and the engine mount on the sump). The CX has its engine mount points in a similar set-up to the 2.2 Murena: end of gearbox, sump on the distribution side and top of cylinder head.

This engine was later upgraded to 2.2l in the CX 22 TRS:
http://www.stopieces-auto.fr/178838-moteur-citroen-cx-4p-serie-2-0785-0689.html (http://www.stopieces-auto.fr/178838-moteur-citroen-cx-4p-serie-2-0785-0689.html)

(http://www.stopieces-auto.fr/178838-593627-thickbox/moteur-citroen-cx-4p-serie-2-0785-0689.jpg)
(http://www.stopieces-auto.fr/178838-594614-thickbox/moteur-citroen-cx-4p-serie-2-0785-0689.jpg)

On the second picture, the lower and top engine mount points can be seen.

IMHO, the easiest way to put this engine in a 2.2 Murena would be to source engine+gearbox from a CX 22 TRS and adapt the rest.  

The Douvrin engine development also goes back to the 60s.
112 HP so no gain mounting this one.
I saw this engine once in a Citroen garage and saw the familiar mounting of it, altough not exactly the same.
If I ever want to replace the engine, I put in a 1.6 Murena engine.
I have much more fun with my 1.6 then my 2.2
It's lighter and handle much better.
a little less power is easy compensated.
There are 1.6 Murena's that run out a S easy with a fast cam and other carbs.
The 1.6 engine is more reliable and  you must be realy rough driver to kill it.
I did 400.000 miles with this engines in 2 Simca 1100 and that was with the paddle on the ground.
the Germans call this engine unkaputtbar

Herman

I wouldn't go to the trouble of swapping a healthy 2.2. It can be made to produce plenty of power for such an old car. spare parts are still available for the 2.2, and not overly expensive.

True   :)
I have refurbished my 2.2 (serious challenges post) and in the process installed a Holbay 58C cam. I have not had an opportunity to tune it properly, but I feel plenty of power already.  ;D
I have the fuel injection intake manifold for it too and the people who ground the cam say they can install it and make it work. I have all the needed parts, so one day... 8)

Some dutch mechanics put a Saab 9000 2.0 Turbo unit into a Murena. I think the rebuild the rear of the car - for trackday purpose. I found the link to their website but lost it :(

Another engine worth concidering is the Mitsu 2.0 V6 6a12 MIVEC engine - a small but high reving powerfull powerplant.

I have a "spare" Bagheera rearend and thought (at some time in this or the next life) experiment with a Saab B234 (transverse) or B202 (longditudal) engine swap since I already have both Saab engines as spare :) . It will result in a +20% power increase but to be used only on trackdays.

As for the Danish law regarding engineswap; it is not as strict as some think. If the car is 1984 or older you can get away with almost "anything" as long as the car keeps within the 20% power increase - even adding a subframe and new engine. After 1984 there are some issus regarding emissions.

The Murena with the Saab turbo engine is running in Germay now.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwoVktQIVzM

Powertest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxgnkNE4szc

Herman

Found the link to the Murena 2.0 Turbo project. The one in the youtube clip above.

http://s1139.photobucket.com/user/wobbe98/library/whpracing?sort=3&start=all&page=1

Enjpy :) or scream in terror :(

/// Lanng

It is known that Matra wanted the Peugeot/Renault Douvrin engine as it was more modern, fuel injected and with the block made in light alloy.  There is even a picture of this engine mated to a finned alloy sump, presumably from when they were trialling during development.  This is in the Murena book by Andre Dewael, but the engine is shown without any transmission.  I would imagine it would have had a slightly modified Peugeot or Renault transaxle as these would have already been fitted to that engine in one of their models.

Now I have driven both the Murena 2.2 and the Espace 2.2 extensively, so I have experience of both engines.  I am glad now that Renault refused Matra the Douvrin engine, for a few reasons.  First is that the Chrysler/Simca engine uses a duplex chain drive to the overhead cam whilst the Douvrin has a 'modern' belt drive, which always requires periodic replacement, and even then they can break unexpectedly, damaging the engine top end extensively and usually with great cost!  Imagine having to change that belt every 80,000 kms in the Murena.  No thanks.

Second, whilst fuel injected engines now can be reliable and better in many ways, back in 1981 they were not always so reliable and in the long term (30 years plus now) imagine trying to get a new injection computer or some of its sensors, when they go wrong - I have obtained some second hand spares for my Espace as I know they are simply not available.  In the same way many of todays cars electronics will be difficult if not impossible to obtain in even 20 years time, so todays cars will be unlikely to last as long as our Murena.  In fact from experience I can tell you it is already happening.  With regular maintenance and the simple carb. fed engine I expect my Murena engine could easily last 500,000 kms or more and last almost as long as I need it.  I know of some Murena that have already done 400,000 km.  (just returned from a fast run to Paris, for Retromobile, in mine where it performed well and topped 30 mpg)

The 2.2 Murena engine is over-square which is better than the under-square Douvrin when it comes to revability, and if you have to take the head off the Murena is an easy engine to work on.  I speak as a seasoned technician that has worked on all types of vehicles for nearly 50 years, and the Murena really is an easy car to work on especially considering it is mid-engined.  The Douvrin has wet liners that are held in place by the cylinder head, so you have to be careful when removing the head otherwise they come out of their lower seal and coolant floods into the sump and you have more work to rebuild the engine.

The engine blow up that started this topic probably would have caused any engine forced to 8,000 rpm or more, to fail but in general I believe the Murena 2.2 engine is generally a reliable one if it is well maintained, with the one exception of the cylinder head cracking and this is still something I haven't got to the bottom of yet.  Originally since I had had no trouble with my own engine, I believed it was down to careless owners who had let a coolant leak cause overheating and therefore the cracked heads.  In many cases I still think this is the main cause, and it is not helped by the mid-engined location of an engine never designed for that installation.  Strictly it should have had a water pump with increased capacity to increase cooling especially at low revs, and the car should have had a coolant level sensor to warn of any drop in coolant long before it could cause any problems.

However, I will say that good maintenance and quality products are a main factor.  I have always used fully synthetic oil in my engines and this helps tremendously.  I have always maintained my car to the highest standard and with the best products even if they cost a bit more as it pays you back in the long run.  Sealed cooling systems, as I have said many times, should NEVER lose ANY coolant, so if the level has to be topped up even the slightest, there is a problem and it needs to be traced and rectified.  I have found over the years this is one of the most common items ignored by owners and it is the root cause of many instances of overheating.

However, there may be another cause of the heads cracking that I am still trying to evaluate as a possibility.  Stress cracking owing to local hot spots.  One possible solution to this may be waterless coolant and it is something I plan to trial.

Regarding the mounting of the Douvrin engine in the Murena, I don't know what they had planned but the engine has the similar side of block mounting points that the Chrysler/Simca engine has, so they would have had to devise another way to mount them as there are no chassis mounting points near the sides of the block.  Probably they would have used similar sump and gearbox mountings to what was designed for the Chrysler/Simca engine.

Roy

Quote Roy.
-------------
However, there may be another cause that I am still trying to evaluate as a possibility.
=====================================================

Some things that pass my mind.
Vacume?
The engines I took apart showed huge diferencences in the amount of coal in the chambers.
Sometimes cilinders had a realy lean burn.

Did the Turbo engine had this trouble to when mounted in a Peugeot?
It was hanging freely in the front of 505 getting more air to cool down where the Murena engine is locked away in the mid section.
As I can recall the oil pump also generated problems in fast corners.

There are to much cracked head from Murena's.
Thre must be a cause to that.
Picture from one Murena owner with 4 spare heads,
All 4 cracked from the mid exhaust valves to the water channel.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-7tcYLKka5E4/VNunIsIoHJI/AAAAAAAAF54/F5vH-igNwn0/s800/Heads%2520%2528Custom%2529.jpg)
pic Katzedeamon

One from a fellow member.
Cracks at the same place.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ac1zoJ6u5TM/VNuqJ31KQ3I/AAAAAAAAF6E/yx-V0Rk7JXE/s800/CropperCapture%255B3%255D%2520%2528Custom%2529.jpg)


I am also curieus why this happen so often.
There must be something structural wrong with this heads or secundairy circumstances that cause it.

Herman

Yes, that is one possibility Herman, and a good one in some respects.  As I said previously, in all my own cars I have not had a head cracked, but I have seen it with many others cars.  So this raises a question why?  Now it may be that as I attend to any faults quickly, such as a leak on the headlamp vacuum system which would cause lean running and high cylinder temperatures; or a loss of coolant; both which could lead to cracking, are eliminated.  So good maintenance will be a factor here.


Whilst the mid-engined location probably means higher engine bay temperatures, if the cooling system is in good condition I know it can cope as my cars have run fine without problems over many years.  However, going back to the fact of high cylinder temperatures - another reason for this can be people using non-standard air intake systems.  You often see people who have dispensed with the original air filter and intake, especially if they have converted to twin side-draught carbs. such as Weber DCOE or Dell'Orto DHLA but with 'pancake' air filters.  The original 'S' used the same type of air filter as the standard car, and the air pick up is low down to get cool air.  Using pancake filters on the carbs. or none at all, means drawing hot air from the top of the engine bay and that will not be good for the engine - it will mean higher cylinder temperatures and less power as the hot air is less condense with consequently lower oxygen.


Whilst the oil pressure does drop slightly in long fast right hand corners, this has never caused a problem with mine, and should affect the things that are oiled, first, such as main and big-end bearings, and should have almost no effect on the cylinder head.  Plus, as I have always said, use a really good oil - at least semi-synthetic - I have always used fully synthetic, and even the lower pressure in those corners is still over 2.5 bar and that is plenty for an engine to keep it lubricated well.


Yes I agree, but I think in a large number of cases it is down to those things I have already mentioned: poor maintenance, letting the coolant drop, running with leaks in the headlamp vacuum system, using pancake air filters breathing at the very hot top of the engine bay, etc.  Other factors may be running too much anti-freeze or not enough, having a slack vee-belt that slips so the water pump does not pump correctly, or allowing the radiator to become too silted, not changing the thermostat and coolant often enough...


Again I agree, the heads always crack in the same areas, which makes it easy to check them as you always know where to look first! :)

However, whilst a lot may be down to poor maintenance, I also think there might be a contributing factor in the head casting design.  If there are 'shapes' in the internal design that cause 'hot pockets', i.e. small steam bubbles, to form; these will cause local overheating even though the overall coolant level may be fine.  The heat can only transfer to the coolant as long as it stays in contact with the metal.  If you get a steam bubble form in a pocket, the heat transfer immediately stops or drops drastically, and this can lead to stress cracking in those areas.  This is why I am going to investigate using waterless coolant.  Even if the local pockets still run slightly hotter, the waterless coolant will not form a gas pocket as it does not boil until it reaches 180 degrees, and any engine that hot would have seized anyway!  So the liquid will remain in contact and heat transfer will still take place.

Roy

Could there be a benefit in using lead substitute in gasoline to get combustion temperature down?
These cylinder heads have been created when gasoline was added lead, this was done both to lubricate the valves / valve seats and to keep the temperature down in the combustion chamber.

I know that the Murena CAN run on unleaded petrol, but I always use to add lead replacement when I fill up the tank with 98 octane unleaded gasoline.
It is not certain it's necessary, but I do not think that it has a harmful effect !?
The development of valve seats and aluminum alloys has certainly evolved over the latest 35 years.

My personal view is no, it is not going to make enough difference assuming it does run a little cooler and I'm not sure that has been proved.


I'm not sure but you may be referring here to the fact that the TEL (tetra ethyl lead) was used to prevent pre-ignition and 'knock' in higher compression engines, but there are other things at work here than just temperature, which is why I say I haven't seen any specific figures proving TEL causes lower temperatures.  Do you have any details?


You always require 97 or more octane with the Murena 2.2 engine, and I always run them with the high octane low-leaded we have today, usually the Shell Nitro as it is now called here, it used to be called Vmax before.  You cannot run the 2.2 on the normal 95 low-leaded and if you do you will get pre-ignition and eventually that will lead to damage.  I have tried the Regular (95) on a number of occasions and none of the Murena 2.2 have run properly, so don't use it.  One person who said his ran fine with 95 grade did not understand that it was pinking, and when I was in it I noticed it straight away and told him to stop using 95 and change to the Super (usually 98 or even 99 octane).

I tried the Regular in conjunction with some of these supposed lead substitute additives, but none worked in my opinion.  Octane boosters may work, but lead substitutes without the octane booster are a waste of money.  The cost of using octane boosters plus the inconvenience of having to carry it and remember to use it, is again a waste of time and money in my opinion because the car runs fine on the Super from the pumps.

Roy

I have the same experiences on this with the 2.2.
Even the V-max with Octane 97 I had some pinking.
In that case I add some octaneboosters (yes they help)
There are 2 pumps in my neigborhood that provide 98 and that is where I always go.
That will end in the near future and it will be unavailable so I wanted the cars on GPL.
I think this is necessary because the new bio fuel will kill the engine in my opnion and the GPL has higher then 100 octane as far as I know.
The governement however desided to put the high tax on oltimers younger then 40 years and on GPL it is skyhigh.
That crossed my plans.
I already had all the material to do the job in the house.
No matter what people tell, use the 98 for the 2.2 is my opinion to.
There are some documents flying around the web telling different but my user manual say 98 (1982)

The WRONG document.
(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/2733/brandstofmatrap2.jpg)

The book tells only super wich was RON98 in the 80s in our country.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-zHnroMU-zSg/VN7pi2Yul5I/AAAAAAAAF74/kPUrcCQ4cos/s800/fuel.jpg)

The 1.6 however has no problems with the 95 octane but that one will even run on diesel  ;D

Herman

I am sorry to hear that Herman.  We have a big movement in Britain called the Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs, where the Classic Car Clubs join together and have one body that fights for our rights to use our old cars, and help to keep the things we need like suitable fuels.


You will still need some petrol because you need to start the car up on it and maybe warm it a little before it will run on liquid gas.  I haven't yet looked into the new bio-fuels as we only have less than 5% allowed without any marking, and therefore the pumps will be marked E-10 or E-15 or whatever, and I have not seen any of those in the UK yet.  But there could be upto 5% alcohol already mixed in our normal fuel.

I'm not so sure the bio-fuel will be so much a problem with the Murena, but you may know more than me.  My understanding is that it is not good with metal fuel tanks (but we have plastic) and any metal fuel pipes (again the Murena only uses rubber hoses and if necessary we can change them).  As the bio-fuel has a different S.G. (specific Gravity) the float level in the carburettors may need to be reset, but that should not be too much a problem.  The one thing I heard was the bio-fuel has a higher octane rating, so that might be beneficial to our engines.


Putting high tax on liquid gas fuel is stupid as it is CLEANER than other fuels!  That really should be challenged.  I'm sorry they have upset your plans having already bought the parts.  Are these high taxes allowed in the EC?  I thought all countries in the EC had to follow the same EC rules.  We are always being told here that we have to follow them, when we wish to do something different.


Correct.  The 2.2 must only use high octane fuel.  We are maybe lucky here but Esso have linked up with our big supermarket Tesco and the Esso Super which we can get, I am told has been measured at 99.7 octane.  It certainly runs well on it.


Ha ha, I like that one!  I know the 1.6 can sound like a tractor, so maybe it can run like one too! :-)

Roy

oi! don't knock the 1.6. They're more reliable than the 2.2 and not much slower.  (puts up asbestos umbrella and awaits the tirade from Roy)  Seriously, my 1.6 will run on 95 RON without complaint, but I get more miles per gallon on Super, so it pays me to use that.  My Rover 2200 is supposed to use 97 RON, I tried using 95 RON with an octane booster but it ran terribly, but it's great on Tesco Momentum.  The situation in the UK is that there are no immediate plans to phase out 5% ethanol fuel.  The FBHVC is campaigning to retain Super with a maximum 5% ethanol as a protection grade in the UK.  I think the dangers of ethanol  are overstated.  It only corrodes steel if it is left in the system for a long time so is not likely to be a problem if you use the car regularly.  Prior to 1989 there were no restrictions on the amount of ethanol that could be added.  In the UK we used to have Cleveland Discol petrol which was 25% ethanol, and National Benzole Mixture which contained benzene and benzyl alcohol and I don't recollect any issues with those.

GPL banned for oldies stupid?
Yes it is stupid but for the reason we need to go back a few decades.
Politicians in that time decided that we had to save our heritage carpark for next generations to come.
They decided that all vehicles older then 25 years became free of roadtax.
That cleared the road for collecting cars even if you have a budget.
Lots of people collect and a biz was born trading and repairing.

Because cars were getting better a lot of cars were used for daily use.
A nasty side effect of this was that old diesels were imported and mostly old Mercedes from Germany and they don't realy help the enviroment.
Also a lot of old cars got a GPL transplant.
Normaly tax is sky-high for this cars but older the 25 years it was free.
Therefore the politicians desided a few years ago that the taxfree age of oldtimers had to go to 30 years.
They implanted this law slowly in a period of 5 years.
That worked pretty good and import of old diesels slowed down.

Our politicians are not reliable.
The recession kicked in and they had to find extra taxes.
The Oldtimer again was target.
New law for oldtimers, the cars need to be 40 years.
Cars on diesel and GPL want have any advantage anymore and we all had to pay full tax again.
For diesel and GPL that is sky-high.
Our taxes are measured by weight of the car and kind of fuel.
For example.....
a heavy Landrover Diesel woudl have a roadtax of 3000 Euro a year.
Also heavy american muscle cars on GPL would go up to 4500 Euro a year.
You can understand that a lot of people were not happy espacialy when you have more cars.

The laws were implanted on very short notice.
Carclubs like ANWB and BOVAG couldn't do much.
Only thing they achieved was that cars 25-40 years on normal fuel pay around 100 Euro extra tax and have to get of the road from 1 december till 1 march.
If you have more cars from 25 - 40 years old you still need to pay a serious amount and the cars have to get of the street for 3 months.
Parking on the street is not allowed in that case.

Of course we are pissed and we planned a spontanious action to show our grieves.
We mobilised on the internet some people to hit the road to our political capitol Den Haag and block the whole city,
Something like this.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-QUQ40SsFls4/VOax2KGDW_I/AAAAAAAAF88/fUAwBfewlHA/s840/binnenkerkhof.jpg)

On 5 parkingplaces in Holland we gathered for what had to be a final protest.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-m4CVRh-uzUM/Uq8r-keFxuI/AAAAAAAAEAE/c80zPKKnLVw/s800/P1060776%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ioghlw5z1rU/Uq8r-tr_6MI/AAAAAAAAEAM/3JfBTRRTeAg/s800/P1060778%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)

The police came looking what was going on and warned Den Haag to get ready for a happening.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-7KtCV3KMh70/Uq8r_202ukI/AAAAAAAAEAo/AF1_IGiXACw/s800/P1060779%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)

To let eryone know of the action we blocked the highway (yes it's me in the front) and we drove ultra slow.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-C47-AxTXMjg/Uq8sBVMuGeI/AAAAAAAAEBA/ey8XiANkUOQ/s800/P1060784%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-dLQERXltwGs/Uq8sDKPrimI/AAAAAAAAEBY/svpE2h0aQhU/s800/P1060789%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-KLRe4BPXg3w/Uq8sCsenZWI/AAAAAAAAEBg/8Ez4gNDZfpQ/s800/P1060787%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)

News spread fast so the police was prepared for us and they blocked the city so we could not drive true.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-JXpjbtZsS0E/Uq8sRuhgUGI/AAAAAAAAEGE/UWQuK5ILJjs/s800/P1060823%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)

We were directed to a field (maliveld) and ther we parked the cars.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-vQXjaozdrs0/Uq8sFQ121RI/AAAAAAAAECY/ps6nASdNzpo/s800/P1060795%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)

From there we organised a meeting with one of the politicians to give a petition.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-cwFlQVec-qE/Uq8sUa8CHcI/AAAAAAAAEG4/zwz5eKUAEGU/s800/P1060830%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-AAc2z9KKY58/Uq8sXTgpHwI/AAAAAAAAEIA/FJFMQE-uW9s/s800/P1060839%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-yEtX5bjm_9Q/Uq8sYPvgAoI/AAAAAAAAEIE/jDUNc-7KMQQ/s800/P1060841%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-x_YtX9wUsc8/Uq8sY6mBhYI/AAAAAAAAEIc/dq3OdiVl5WI/s800/P1060842%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-2jtnJ6oqe9U/Uq8sYxiZgjI/AAAAAAAAEIY/Av-j0meEybk/s800/P1060843%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-WingMB7RP9o/Uq8sZ2s9izI/AAAAAAAAEIs/w63XyrOZPIY/s800/P1060845%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-j8ppgEKzK2w/Uq8sa71M5OI/AAAAAAAAEJM/idg8SuuRugY/s800/P1060849%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)

From there we got back and the whole action ended as one of the best oldtimer festivals ever with a very nice collection of cars.
Here some examples.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ONiC1dJIOc8/Uq8sGeYbE_I/AAAAAAAAECw/GrMWT3snfWE/s800/P1060798%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-7aRO1jfodHY/Uq8sGzF_qFI/AAAAAAAAEC4/CdwZq_-gSkA/s800/P1060799%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-wtna2AULibI/Uq8sG76VO0I/AAAAAAAAEC8/jPTW-WDaFvw/s800/P1060800%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-tL8FOfla8z0/Uq8sHncbLPI/AAAAAAAAEDM/kIeDZX2Yano/s800/P1060801%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-tj4ok0bcDaE/Uq8sHkMoofI/AAAAAAAAEDU/j0YIUfnKRS8/s800/P1060802%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-5rRTjrGhA3E/Uq8sIBgneHI/AAAAAAAAEDQ/NmPLh2ZM3xE/s800/P1060803%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-qzVMCgzOYPw/Uq8sJscsRgI/AAAAAAAAEDs/bYF8C7lPJxo/s800/P1060804%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-s7b6z7oyFAg/Uq8sJmUKj0I/AAAAAAAAEDo/ct4_uuAkP9A/s800/P1060805%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-i1SS15fg5oA/Uq8sJylP-3I/AAAAAAAAEDk/egpIzh8Q2Do/s800/P1060806%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-eG7oj0cKlyc/Uq8sK1jKR9I/AAAAAAAAED8/l7QXCqVYTjA/s800/P1060807%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-QQq7y-T1AYE/Uq8sK_mHlyI/AAAAAAAAEEE/8RpJm1151qA/s800/P1060808%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-xX3c9-OK5IM/Uq8sK045QXI/AAAAAAAAEEI/gSRVDMAe2IA/s800/P1060809%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-KsM4ZXvrG-I/Uq8sLjb-fpI/AAAAAAAAEEM/_Vpcp__jIi0/s800/P1060810%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-eo0qA4g5fcc/Uq8sLzJpngI/AAAAAAAAEEo/tGyiDqXaFcs/s800/P1060811%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-F7wClnn0DOw/Uq8sMQb3A2I/AAAAAAAAEEg/TvilJSD4rII/s800/P1060812%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-55pLfY6Vo6Q/Uq8sMRvQJAI/AAAAAAAAEEk/u9NK5FE5jYw/s800/P1060813%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-5tInqyK2isM/Uq8sNGRKQbI/AAAAAAAAEE4/ECIQ15Tdsig/s800/P1060814%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-DsVe_4Gx4vQ/Uq8sNJTXTaI/AAAAAAAAEEs/NYyj36lBFA4/s800/P1060815%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-WVz34jq36PU/Uq8sQAfBjJI/AAAAAAAAEFc/seP4Pcq1_Z4/s800/P1060820%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-cvjgk6HPWqg/Uq8sRl_AeTI/AAAAAAAAEFw/vTGYtjKFc0E/s800/P1060822%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ZrryxlpM5YI/Uq8sRuGpomI/AAAAAAAAEF0/wW33lwHl1bg/s800/P1060824%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-mrBsaKb4MNs/Uq8sSq0W8II/AAAAAAAAEGI/6KcMxqa9mWU/s800/P1060825%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ziqMAopu1eE/Uq8sSqor8xI/AAAAAAAAEGM/2x0KDmFmuug/s800/P1060826%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-xTOPERs_Uhc/Uq8sTUWfoxI/AAAAAAAAEGc/grLK2D8RIC8/s800/P1060827%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-9lgRW5BrFso/Uq8sTk3ciuI/AAAAAAAAEGg/S2tIXlsHi_0/s800/P1060829%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-BR9lvXQDYTI/Uq8sUZxgzoI/AAAAAAAAEGw/0zX1nw9Psm0/s800/P1060832%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Yc767I2B0FE/Uq8sV6TX70I/AAAAAAAAEHU/kGbA0KO8EXI/s800/P1060835%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-_3IoVx7PYxE/Uq8sWLX_PfI/AAAAAAAAEHo/GNF59jcpTKQ/s800/P1060836%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-oK7XFIkx2qs/Uq8sW7wRNrI/AAAAAAAAEHs/xhRNTNk8QVQ/s800/P1060837%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-2cLuf6agaBo/Uq8sW1avQ9I/AAAAAAAAEHk/9hsEW5hZKf4/s800/P1060838%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-CE7Co6WWGFk/Uq8sUUb6SoI/AAAAAAAAEHA/mFJqMSbHzWM/s800/P1060831%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-WcEjWNgh4NY/Uq8sbGdTNDI/AAAAAAAAEJI/PW4B2uHn894/s800/P1060850%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-3OVw9vyWYQU/Uq8scblZ7MI/AAAAAAAAEJU/kKq7sokKryo/s800/P1060851%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-n-UX_9xBReE/Uq8sVrCqiDI/AAAAAAAAEHM/Q8oBh35pjrk/s800/P1060834%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)

part 2
Any Matra's there?
Yep me ,and I was suprised to see a female mechanic that restored this Rancho by herself.
Normaly I am the only one.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-pAxrQ2tuEuw/Uq8sOKJv5PI/AAAAAAAAEFA/owSL4jrZ0z0/s800/P1060817%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-gx3QqyB9Rt8/Uq8sPYFksuI/AAAAAAAAEFM/VUy83wfVfs8/s800/P1060818%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/--vvVwNTuaQw/Uq8sTUSzxOI/AAAAAAAAEGk/oyislpObn4Q/s800/P1060828%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)

Is it ending here?
Is there no future for old cars in Holland?

The protest goes on and we all sponsor a organisation to get the governement to court.
26 februari the 5 trial start and there is enough money to put this to European court.
Its in Dutch http://www.vrijstellingoldtimer.nl
In the mean time a whole biz is down the drain and lot of people that can't pay there hobby are selling there cars abroad or break it.
Specialised firms still have a lot of cars in stock and value is a lot lower.
There goes our heritage.

Yes, I'm pissed and I'm not the only one.
1 march my hobbycars will come out the shed to do what they were made for.
Can't wait

Herman

Way to go, Herman. Thumbs up from here and wishing you luck.

This is what the politicians stopped with the new law, the import of gaz-guzzlers but it it hit people with youngtimers hard that only do a few miles.
It's a bit hilarious but he feels our new laws to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=878av2p0xzc