MatraSport Forum

Anybody have problems with their starter??

Mine doesn't get steady power (kl 30)...

Anybody knows what the fault can be??

I hope I don't need to replace the cabel.... :P

Where did You measured the power? I'm not a big friend with electrics but think that it is possible to measure the resistance and conductivity of single cabel.

try that with a cable 3 meters long...  :D

Sometimes helps to make new connections at the ends of the cabel...

Also check the battery connections, the earth to the chassis from the battery and the engine earth strap, attached to the gearbox.  It's unlikely to be the cable itself.  If everything is in good order and the battery is in a good state of charge, then it could be the motor itself, needing a new set of brushes.  What are the symptoms?  Is the motor engaging and failing to turn the engine over, or is nothing happening when you turn the key (not even the lights dimming)?  If the latter it could be the connections to the solenoid or the solenoid itself, or even the key switch.

On an old starter motor the problem could be the brushes being worn down so they barely make contact. Also the contact in the starter selenoid could be corroded. The brushes can be replaced and if you do, clean the commutator with a fine grid (240 grain) sanding cloth. If it has been severely groved, it may be necessary to have it turned. If it is turned, remember to clean the spaces between the commutator plates for metal shavings to prevent shorting.

It's a new starter from simons, but the old also had problems with the same symptoms....

I can hear the starter clicking when I turn the key. And when i disconnect the small "wire" is does nothing. So believe that wire is okay..

I have disconneted the big wire (the one from the batteri). Tried with a testlamp, but there is no power going to the end... Conclusion there no power in that cabel... 

There is also a "mediun" wire.. But can't measure anything on that... I think I took it off the same place as the "big" wire :-\
 
I can almost not turn it, despite having jumpcables on the starter itself...  :(

But where is the engine earth strap located..?? Thought the starter simply got the earth from the bolts...

Everything else works fine besides the starter...

Whats the condition of the battery ??... sounds like its discharged.

Have the original batterie in the front and it's fully charged. Then I have a spare in the back for the jumpcables also fully charged...

On my 1.6, the earth strap runs from the diff housing on the gearbox to the chassis.  It sounds as though there's no power coming from the battery though.  If you've got a spare battery, try connecting that directly to the starter with your jump leads and see if that works.

tried with the jump leads with a second batteri (the one from my 205) and it turn over very slow or not at all. And the kabels are getting warm..

So it was probably not the starter in the first place and you took a guess, which has cost you a new starter motor unnecessarily.  If a professional technician does something like this, everyone shouts about rubbish garages and rip-offs.  Yet I see people here doing it all the time themselves...


Not necessarily true.  When you say you tested the main cable with a test lamp, where exactly did you make your test lamp connections?

You should have the test lamp earth on the battery earth, and first test the test lamp by connecting the other end to the battery positive.  If the lamp lights you have proved everything in your test circuit is fine.  Now you should move the positive connection of the test lamp to the end of the main cable you have removed from the starter BUT DO NOT changed anything else.  I know this is more awkward with the battery at the front and the starter at the rear, but you simply require long test leads - what is the problem.  If the test lamp no longer lights or only very dimly then the main lead has a problem.

If you move both the positive AND the negative of your test lamp, then it proves nothing until you have verified you have a good earth too.  On any vehicle but especially these cars with galvanised chassis, that should never be taken for granted.


If it came off the same connection as the main power lead then it is probably the alternator supply and won't have any power until connected with the main lead as that is where it gets its power!


The power unit main earth is a braided cable that connects to the differential housing.


The starter motor does get its earthing through contact with the engine block and mounting bolts, but if the engine itself is not earthed as the main earth lead has broken or is not making a clean contact then that supposition is false...


But nothing else requires the amount of current that the starter does!

Will the engine turn easily by hand?  If the engine is seized, or hydraulically locked, no amount of power to the starter will have the result you require. :-)

First, you need to make sure you really have good connections and the main cable is fine.  You could try the starter on the floor (removed from the engine but with the same main cable - pass the main lead down under the car and connect to the starter, then you will need a heavy duty earth lead to the starter casing and back to the chassis but make sure that really is a good earth to the battery.  If the starter now works, you have eliminated two things - the cable and motor.

All problems like this are a case of doing tests, collecting information, and possibly doing more tests on the basis of the results until you can track down the root cause.  It's detective work and you need to do things logically.

Roy

If you try the starter on the floor as Roy suggest, make sure you have a good hold on it. There will be a tremendous torque when it spins up, that could have the whole starter rolling across the floor and wires shorting. But before taking the starter off, try putting the car in 4th or 5th gear and try to push it. You should be able to move the car and turn the engine over. If it won't move, there is a good chance of the engine lockup that Roy described. If you do remove the starter, try to turn it by hand first. That should be fairly easy. If not you could have a bad starter, even if it is "new" from Simon.

Sounds as though the starter is ok and you need a decent set of jump leads.  Be aware  that although the starter may appear to run freely when placed on the floor, when it's under load, the current will increase dramatically and it may still not turn the engine if there's any resistance in the cabling.
If you pay someone to do work for you,you expect them to know what they're doing.  We amateurs have to learn by experience and yes, we do often make the wrong decisions, it's part of the hidden cost of doing it yourself.

Good point Jon.  I had taken it as read that anyone doing this would know what they were doing, and you need to hold the starter anyway to activate it.  Again this is a simple technique as long as you know what you are doing.  With positive and negative wires bolted in place, you simply flash a brief connection from the starter positive to the solenoid positive. (We used to use an old penny years ago to do this on many diesel trucks - no need for hot wiring!)


Yes, never discount a new part as possibly faulty.  I have had this so many times over the years.  However, since he said the original starter had the same symptoms, I doubt two would be faulty - not impossible but less likely.

Roy

The "clicking" sound is the selenoid being pulled when you turn the ignition key.

The "Big" wire and the "medium" wire should be connected to the same post on the selenoid. The medium wire comes from the alternator and charges the battery through the big wire. If the big wire is broken or the connector on the battery is severely coroded, you will not charge the battery or be able to draw power to the starter.

Placing jumper cables, negative on the engine block somewhere, and positive on the starter, should definitely crank the engine at normal revs. Is the starter engaging the cogs on the flywheel and trying to crank the engine?

If you have a spare battery that you know is good and are using it to jumper the starter, try placing it in front instead of the old battery and see what happens. As suggested, make sure the poles and connectors are clean. Also try measuring resistance (there shouldn't be any) from the negative battery pole to the engine block.

Last night I was working on the headlights and had the engine started (twice) without any problems.

This morning I got into the car, turned the key and the starter engaged for a fraction of a second, then the "clicking" sound started and the engine did not crank. >:(

Thinking that, perhaps the flywheel had stopped at a spot that din't allow the bendix drive to engage, I put the car in fifth gear and pushed it ½m. No luck, only clicking sounds from the starter.

I was getting late for work, so I took the other car. But now the weekend is booked working on the starter. First I will make sure that the battery is putting out enough power after the work I did on the lights. But I am not too optimistic due to the way it failed. It did after all engage and try to turn the engine for that fraction of a second, before quitting. :(

I have the very same symptoms.

I bought a new battery as there was not enough charge in it to turn the starter motor. (However, original battery is currently in Sunbeam Alpine and turns that over no problem).  It would start after many attempts on turning the ignition to engage the starter motor but got the clicking more often than would turn over. I then ordered a new starter motor and fitted it. This someway sorted the problem but would occasionally still get the clicking again. However, the clicking has returned, car won't turn and looks like a need another starter motor.

I will send the one back I bought recently and currently getting original one reconditioned but I am still no wiser what is causing this.   

A qualified guess is the relay connectors in the starter has become dirty, and it needs to be reconditioned or replaced.

/Anders

After I got home from work I jumpered the car and it started right up. then I drove it to a birthday party in Sorø (60+ km) thinking that the battery just needed to charge. Alas, when it came time to go home the car would not start again. Same clicking. There is plenty of power to the lights while driving, and using jumpers on the battery poles starts it right up. So nothing wrong with the cables between battery and the starter.

After I got home I put a charger on the battery and it started charging, drawing 5 amps. So the battery was definitely not fully charged. I have checked the battery and there are no dry cells. Next I will borrow Jan's clamp-on amp meter and measure to see if it is charging. Jan tells me that there is no charging relay and that it regulates the charging from the alternator. So perhaps it needs work even though it gives plenty of power.

I still think you have a bad starter. The solenoid on the side of it is activated by the ignition key and in turns connects the electric motor itself to the battery. It also engages the starter on the flywheel. The clicking you are hearing comes from the solenoid. If the electric motor sometimes does not start turn, it's most likely the contacts in the solenoid. Solution is reconditioning or replacing the starter - if it helps charging the battery, it's purely by accident. You could just as well try having a cup of coffee :)

/Anders

  Could be the battery in a low state of charge.  If the lights dim when you operate the starter, then it's the battery.  If you hear a click and the lights do not dim then, as Anders says, it's the solenoid because the motor isn't drawing any current.  You don't need a clamp-on ammeter to test the charging.  Put some electrical load on the system, such as turning on the headlights, and run the engine up to about 2000 rpm.  Measure the voltage directly across the battery terminals.  If it's about 14 to 14.4 volts, then your charging system is fine.  If there was a problem, then surely you'd notice a low reading on the dashboard voltmeter anyway.

Well, I had a battery charger hooked up over night. The charging current drops to 0 amps, but the voltage across the battery is only 13,2 V dropping to 12,5 V after the chargfer has been disconnected for some time. I started the car by jumpering the battery. After removing the jumpers I measure 14,7 V with the engine at idle. My conclusion from this is that the alternator is charging fine. 14,7 v is plenty of power. The way the battery behaves make me think that one of the cells has gone bad, causing it to deliver insuficient amps for the selenoid and starter.

I would tend to agree with that.  Check the battery either by substituting another, or by going to a specialist and having a heavy discharge test done.  The fact that you can start the car with jump leads would rule out the starter motor or the connections.

I installed a new battery the other day. It turned out that I had to find one with reverse pole positions, because of the way the cabeling is made. Otherwise I would have had to modify the battery cables.

Well the new battery has done the trick. The car now starts quickly and willingly.  :D

And..


There is nothing we elder men likes more than being able to say... "I told you so" :D :D :D

I would agree, if it wasn't for the fact that it was "flew" you told so, in response to his post at the start of this thread.  ;D ;D ;D
So technically speaking you didn't tell me so. ;)

Aaaaaand my , my memory isnt what it used to be ;)... but you got your car running.. thats what matter :D