MatraSport Forum

I am seriously considering to change the transmission fluid on my 24v as a precaution and "service".
By googling it i read YES and NO everywhere on this box, and doom day notes telling about broken boxes after replacing fluid - i'm ending up cross-eyed...
But with 137.000km on the clock the oil simply cannot be as good as new anymore, and the definition "Lifetime" (filled for life) might very well mean something like 150.000km down in Europe.

Since Renault Nordic took over they don't keep a single litre of their original LMO oil in stock (belive that!) so its a France order and takes a week or two.

I have a friend running his own Bosch service center and he insists on using "his" Valvoline Maxlife ATF on it, and thinks i am a real cone head for making such a big fuzz about it! I just want to make sure i do what ever i can to keep my favourite car through all times running good for many many km to come. Neither my friend or Valvoline has got the balls to guarantee (money wise) it wont fail with their oil inside withing a few thousand kilometres.

So, Renault not stocking the oil, easy access and good price on the Maxlife, it looks like i am going for it unless something comes up - i'm then doing 4 changes (drain and refill) on it with a short drive inbetween to get most of the old oil out, since it only drains about halv of total capasity from draining plug.

WHAT oil are you using on your ZF 4HP20 box if you have changed it ???

Tom

I have attached a ZF automotive transmission lubrication bulletin that provides you with details of alternative oils for the 4HP20... mainly from the OEM's who have utilised that transmission but also a ZF brand oil.

On page 3 there are some notes regarding the 5 and 6 speed transmissions in general but also specifically mentions the 4HP20 regarding the oil and oil change interval.

I have the oil changed on my old 5 series that has a 4HP22 but that uses Dextron 3. I take it to an auto transmission specialist and have the filter changed at the same time (they are about €40).... and as over half the oil in an auto box is within the torque converter, at the same time as changing the filter they open the valve within the transmission to drain all the old oil from the torque converter as well as the box and then there is the need for only one fill instead of several as you had planned.... ATF (Automatic Transmission Fluid) is expensive!!!

Martin

To explain or clarify this for others who may not understand why, here is the reason.

When you drain an automatic gearbox sump, you only drain the oil in the gearbox.  That still leaves the oil in the torque convertor.  This is often about half the total quantity of oil in the combined unit.  So if you drain the oil from the sump and top it up again, you will still be left with about half of the old (dirty) oil.  That is not a very good way to do an oil change, and since the new and old oil will mix on running, even doing the change a number of times will still not really clean it, but sort of dilute the old oil - the problem is that much dirt can remain.  This is one major reason why no oil change is recommended.

The better way to drain and refill, is to drain the sump, then remove it and remove the valve block and drain the torque convertor in which the oil is held by a valve in the valve block.  If you rotate the convertor by hand whilst the valve block is off, it will help to empty it, but you can never drain or clean it entirely.  This is why you must never change a damaged automatic gearbox without changing the convertor.  Particles and dirt from the damaged unit will be in the convertor and subsequently get into the new unit when run.

Once drained as much as possible, you can then refit the valve block, clean or change the filter and refit the sump.  Utmost cleanliness is paramount at all times.  If even a spec of dirt is introduced you can cause problems.  The valve blocks have some very tiny holes...

You must know what you are doing as removing and refitting the valve block could cause problems if you do not get it right.  Some have push fit external (to the valve block) pipes that have to be removed and refitted correctly; there can be operating rods that fit in special places that are released by removing, so have to be refitted correctly as the valve block is re-secured; and often there are different length screws that must all go back in exactly the same positions; so don't even consider this if you are not sure you know how to do it.

As for oil, you are right about using the same as the original and nothing less, since it will be mixing with the original.  As these boxes can be very susceptible to oil, I would not want the oil being a mixture of two types.

Roy

I took our car to an auto box specialist as soon as I got it home from Germany as I didn't beleive in "life time" oils. He agreed and replaced the amount of oil that could be drained off the box (4 litres I think), and we redid the procedure the following year.

Martin, the 4HP22 is a longitudal gearbox and you probably have much easier access to the internals. With the 4HP20 being a good deal more compact, it is not possible to change the filter without taking the box apart. For this you need to take the box off the car, which on the Espace apparantly involves taking the entire driveline out. At least according to the manual. Even now that I have had the box off the car twice within the last few months, I haven't had it done. I hope relatively frequent half oil changes will keep the box running.

And so far I think we're all right, since when the oil was changed first time, the mechanic said it was a bit dirty. Next time it was all right, and when it was checked in December, we decided to leave it for another year as it was clean. I could have had the box shipped to an autobox specialist for a complete oil and filter change this time, but honestly I forgot - and has decided to live with it for now.

Roy's comments about precautions when working on these boxes leads me to think that it's better to do as little as possible with these boxes, unless you go to an auto box specialist. If my box should fail at some point, I'm going to have it towed or drive it (if it still can) to Germany for a rebuild at one of the specialist workshops there. The 4HP20 is a common box on Peugeots and Mercedes Vito, so it should be all right. Browsing eBay, I have found at least one business in Berlin which has these boxes in stock already refurbished.

There's a very good document about this box in the vault on the Espace section:
http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Espace/vault/JE/AUTOBOX_ZF4_HP20_training.pdf

/Anders

Anders, do you know what oil was used on your transmission ?

I've found that the ESSO LT 71141 is available here so if the sufficient amount (12 ltrs = 3 or 4 drains depending on 3 or 4 litres draining each time) is in stock i will probably go for that even if it IS an expensive oil (somewhere around 250 euros in oil only).
I will have another check with Renault conserning delivery time on the LM0 oil (2 litres containers) as i think that is a tiny bit cheaper if i remember correct, got a 2 litre that i bought last year.

I am planning to do this 22 mai along with engine oil exchange, AC service (fluid exchange) etc.

The filter is only accessible after you split open the box so that is not an option to touch on these.

By the way off topic but much more pleasant ::) - just colored the leather front seat cussions with a diy kit from Buffalo Leather UK, FANTASTIC ;D
The Initiale seats are very nice but they wear off on the leather color from entering and exiting the car.

UPDATE - just ordered 16 litres ESSO LT 71141 as there was plenty in stock and with a good discound deal it became a fairly decent price afterall. So no more wondering, simply play it safe!

I'm going to take some photos of the excange prosedure and drop it on here when its done.

UPDATE of the really bad kind :o

Today - just a few days until sceduled oil exchange i suddenly got a horrible noise apparently from the transmision, appearing out of the blue when driving off and engaging second gear.... Metalic noise and present when driving aswell as in park/neutral. I gently drove 1 km to home and started and stopped it a few times but the same ugly noise.

Drained it and got approx 3.5 liters of oil - black oil. Then with the sump plug off i started it to drain another 0.5 liters, and the noise was now intermittent only for the 15-30 seconds i had it running. Stopped and started it once more, and noice COMPLETELY gone!

Now i have no other option than to do a couple of flushes at home to see what happends. Since i have only 2 liters at home i will get 8 liters shipped tomorrow so by tuesday night i will probably know the first result.

So with 137.000km, the lifetime oil crap is a real joke >:(

You can easily see the difference on the oil...... not good! And this is the exact identical oils as they have the same smell/cent only the new one smells stronger - kinda rotten fish or something.

There is some very small metal particles left in the bottom of the can used for draining, and i dont know if this is considered normal or fatal after 137.000km on the same oil.

Time will show!

It is fairly normal for auto oil to go black; the important point is whether it is also burnt, or badly contaminated with metal particles.

The way an auto gearbox works is that there are a number of multi-plate clutches that work in the oil, and so the lining 'dust' that wears off the plates, mixes with the oil, making the colour much darker.  However, if the oil smells burnt, or is contaminated with metal particles, that is a sign that there is a problem.


As with all 'lifetime' statements like joints or bearings 'sealed for life' these do not mean 'forever' and the 'life' can vary depending on other factors like working conditions, damage to seals allowing ingress of water, or loss of oil or grease, etc. etc.  So the lifetime is not what it seems...


I could not make out anything from the photo unfortunately, but any metal particles in the oil can spell bad news I'm afraid, especially with that noise you described.  With fresh oil it may last a while longer but knowing the problems we have had here with these boxes, I would not rely on it at all.  Sorry.

Roy

I would say its neither burned or BADLY contaminated, only some particles (more like metal dust) is left in the drain can. Hopefullt this amount is what can be expected when never drained before with 137k on the clock, regardless - it is there.

I suspect the noise to have been from the converter, some time ago (1 year..) i probably had this sound a second or so when starting up cold but it only occurred a couple of times and never felt dramatic. I am fairly sertain it is linked to the converter, but converter or gearbox - if i have to take it out for converter exchange it will also be gearbox exchange.

The truth is that i never rely on an automatic transmission, and when buying this car i knew that soon or later it will need attention like rebuild or exchange. Perhaps this is the time.

Any tips on new or rebuilt ZF 4HP20 is much appreciated.

And for the record, i dont blame the car or Renault for this 8) I still LOVE my Espace !!! Truth is its a German gearbox :-*

I have the same opinion, though I think this gearbox is less problematic than some other Renault auto boxes.


I have come across this company on eBay:
http://stores.ebay.de/GSB-GETRIEBESERVICE-BERLIN-GMBH

They don't list any ZF 4HP20 or Renault LM0 boxes at the moment, but they have had them before so they might be worth a call. They will need your old box back, but that shouldn't be a problem.


Haha! Indeed.

Have you read this training manual yet?
http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Espace/vault/JE/AUTOBOX_ZF4_HP20_training.pdf

/Anders

Yes, i've read that manual - many times..

Today i "found" the filler cap (speedo blind plate) and level plug and cleaned the area, so i am ready to do some oil filling tomorrow when hopefully the oil arrives. Then i think the first moment of truth is close.
If it turns out the gearbox seems okay (so far) i will still look for a new one and replace it along with cambelt service next year - unless i have a 100% trouble free year with the current box.

I have a friend in Germany - a Renault tech - now running his own independent repair shop. We discuss frequently tools and faults and he is a good source when i need parts.

He says that it is not abnormal to find tiny metal particles in these when they have passed 100.000km, and is also pretty certain that the sound experience is due to an oil level problem striking the hydraulic clutch.

I have never (shame on me now) topped up the transmission, neither do i know if this has ever been done in the history of the car even if it has complete service history from Germany from new -and with the previous owner as he frequently visited Germany and serviced the car at the same time. I saw today that it is tiny oil sweat around the driveshaft axles, and even if it is tiny it will eventually drain the box.

So, until i have filled it up and tested it i cross my fingers and have only one last sentence to all you coneheads still driving your car with the same "#%""&=)?&# lifetime oil" inside your gearbox, GET IT FIXED WITH GENUINE OIL ONLY - NOW - and i wish i had seen this thread myself a year ago! ;D

A new idea from my German friend, apparently he has been discussing my gearbox noise with another technitian at a German Renault dealer today - and there is a suggestion about a thin metal plate mounted between the converter and the engine, this could have a small cut and creates/created noise - Remembering this from previous problems on these cars - and by the sound of it i have to admit it could be something like that. And when that is said i do have a rather sharp starter noise just when the engine starts, and this has been like this as long as i've had it.

Well - since i have no oil yet i will be just sitting here and everywhere and typing my own comforts but preparing for the worst :P

That's right - it's covering the lower part of the converter and is removed to gain access to the bolts between the engine and converted. It shouldn't be difficult to remove it and look for obvious problems!

There's nothing worse than waiting for a verdict... I'll keep my fingers crossed that it will be positive!

/Anders

UPDATE - the gearbox is gone to hell!
It is spraying oil through the converter house so its game over. It is shifting gears nicely but the converter sounds like a jet fighter on asteroid collision or something.

Have running contact with GSF Berlin, they claim they can deliver a fresh LM0-005 on upcoming saturday already... if so it is a big WOW - 1349 euros + shipping. They then take the broken box as they go.

Will keep you posted - the good part about this is that we regardless will have a working car in good time before the summer vacation.

So i sing a big HALLELUJA always looking at it from the bright side about the fact that finally the gearbox broke down and most lightly i will have no gearbox problems again with this car ::)

That's bad news indeed, but I like the way you look at it, and it's good to hear that you've found a new box at a fair price! I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. Getting the box off the engine is going to be your next big challenge, as it's probably very difficult unless you take the drive train out. Am I hearing anyone rumour "timing belt replacement"?

Maybe it's about time I wrap the plastic covers up for you and have them sent off... please e-mail me with your address.

Here's a photo of the converter on our box - as you can see, it's still dry and nice inside. I suppose yours is a good deal more oily!

(http://gallery.dinsen.net/d/12767-4/DSC_8951.JPG)

Ive already started the gearbox removal, and it is possible without removing engine - someone has done it before and it was said to be "okay" and got a brief description over the phone today. So now remains a couple of big bolts and then lower the engine on one side to pull off the box. Hopefully i will get the remaining time tomorrow before we go on a good long weekend without kids. Dont know if i make any update on the progress but i will post as soon as possible.

In addition i have two more JE's standing here now - one with faulty ABS and one non starter due to electrical problems. So i hope the three of them will have some nice conversations during the next days ;D And i will try to fix them as soon as possible since the neighbours now are pretty sure i am completely mad in my head :D

HAHA! Look at the positive side: Now your boring neighbours with boring lives finally have something to talk about! ;D Like my neighbors, who has been looking at my Murena standing outside on the little road in front of our house without rear suspension and wheels for a week. But they know me by now...!

/Anders

Quick UPDATE

L@@K, the gearbox is out ;D

Approx 4 hrs work summed up, but i'm sure it would be near to half if i was to do it again. So now my transmission is off to Berlin for rebuild as they had an error in stock and no LM0-005 available. Just as good, i'll be getting back my own box again.

Well done, Tom! It looks very good in there. I hope you'll get your box back quickly. It will be nice to know you have a "fresh" one in now.

/Anders

New plans for the gearbox

GSB Berlin has a fantastic delivery and pick up service anywhere in europe EXEPT Norway that is outside EU - so in the end it seemed like a lot of hazzle with transportation and cash euro payment to the driver upon delivery in Sweden (the closest they could offer to meet me). A shame since they have really good service both by email and telephone - you can actually drive your car to their facility in Berlin and drop it off and get it fixed by next day - and they arrange a hotel and a rental car while you wait. Unfortenately my car was not driveable, but if it was i might have done just that.

So now it is on the way to ZF's facility in Gøteborg Sweden for rebuild and bench test and is promised back in about a week delivered to my adress. A bit more expencive but not much, and since this goes through the Norwegian ZF representative i feel that the warranty might stand stronger IF something should happen within 6 months.

Too bad the Berlin solution didn't work out, but I'm glad to hear that you have found a good alternative. I agree with you that warranty service will definitely be better this way, so I suppose you'll get a little out of the extra payment. by the way, how much will it cost?

The GSB service sounds really good, especially the solution where you go there and stay one night in Berlin while the car is serviced! I think I'll give them a call as I now have a new engine - so why not a matching fresh gearbox?

/Anders

GSB Price was 1349 euros plus shipping for exchange box/rebuild existing. But they operate on different pricing based on how long warranty you want and wether or not you are a mechanic or private.

My ZF price are approx 1900 euros IF no breaking exists on the gearbox casings.

What seems to have happened is a faulty bearing around the converter shaft, but this is a fairly good guess only as we where unable to pull off the converter (probably due to this).... used no force on it though. But it also makes sence with the noise and oil leak.

And since this topic started out as an oil type thread, the ESSO LT 71141 oil IS the same oil you get on Renault LM0 bottle - exactly the same color and very distinctive smell. 100% identical.

Thanks for sharing the prices, Tom. I don't think either is too bad, actually. I remember being given a price in the range of 30000 DKK, that's about 4000 EUR just for the box repair, when I consulted a local gearbox specialist back when I got our car four years ago.

Cheers,
/Anders

Quick update - they called from ZF today and offered a new converter instead of exchange unit since they where currently out of overhauled ones and a week extra to wait, they charged 180 euros extra if i choosed a new converter and ofcourse i want a new one! ;D

The reason for the breakdown was the oil pump, dont know if i got it all correct but apparently a gasket from the oil pump shaft went off and this eventually destroyed the sealing around the converter shaft causing a leak there aswell. Something like that anyhow. Rest of the box was fine, but still it is ofcourse rebuilt with a few available upgrades/improvements in addition to pump, filter and all the rest of it. Recon it will be like new again and i will get it back next week if it passes bench testing.

Hmm, it sounds like an oil pressure problem has eventually destroyed the seal causing the leak? Anyway good to hear they are progressing and giving feedback on the problem. That's always a good sign. How did you get in touch with them, by the way?

/Anders

Got this rebuild arranged through a very professional Bosch Diesel Center that i use for parts etc - and it is run by a friend of mine ::) They have various partners they use and this is through one of them.

So i guess my prices are very good on this one - and the follow up is also very good.

I am told that ZF has a new and modern facility in Sweden and some boxes are fixed there and some are sent to Germany. This one is dealt with in Sweden.

Today the repaired gearbox arrived safe and sound, so i will put it back in during the weekend :)

Congratulations! That was a quick delivery and return, I think. I wish you good luck and fun with the reinstallation. It looks good!

/Anders

Hopefully the last UPDATE in this matter, the gearbox is in place and working like a clock. Just did a 30km test drive and it is shifting and driving absolutely lovely. Constantly logging temperature etc with NXR during the test drive.

The mileage is now below 1 ltr/10km in average on this spesific route and it was never that low before. So i suspect the gearbox to have been cause of several minor "misfire" problems that i thought was engine related (that is, i hoped it was engine related - but now im glad they seem to be gearbox related....).
It is all gone and the engine/gear assy is realy cozy like a cat down there now.

FINE  ;D

Hooray! It looks very good indeed! Congratulations with a job very well done! :D

I remember your problems with jerky running and you suspected the spark plugs. I'm very glad to hear they are fully solved now. It makes sense that it was the torque converter which was to blame. In addition to the converter, it contains a mechanical lockup clutch which is activated by inverting the flow of oil inside the converter. It even attempts to implement a "limited slip" feature by carefully adjusting the oil pressure.

So pressure problems could have lead to all sorts of problems. Did you ever find any fault codes in the diagnosis system?

/Anders

Never had any fault codes on the automatic transmission other than low computer supply voltage a couple of times (but always measured OK with multimeter and engine running). Engine ecu only came up with richness correction fault all the time. According to a Renault tech i know that seems to be a common faultcode on these so they only treat it as a software problem unless the car shows real problems. But i will watch this closely now, to see if it all infact can be traced to a poor gearbox or not. A lot of these have suffered from faulty gearboxes as we know.

Ouch - my time now  :o

It has been a little jerky when cold for some time, and as you, Tom, I've been suspecting ignition problems or other engine management problems. But when it persisted after the engine was switched, I realised that the gearbox might be to blame. And it was. Last week it started shifting "funny" when it was cold, but it went away. Today it went into emergency mode :( There are no leaks from the box, so I don't think the problem is the same as yours.

I've spoken to ZF Denmark who thinks they can sell a replacement box for about 18k DKK. KG KNUTSSON (I think they were the ones to service yours) in Göteborg wants 18k SEK for a rebuild. But with transport and time it may amount to the same. I've been trying to call GSB in Berlin this morning.

I'm taking the car to the garage now to have any fault codes read out. Then we will make a decision.

/Anders

And it's fixed! Quick, isn't it? :)

It turned out to be the round connector on top of the gearbox - it was full of water after the heavy rainfall Thursday and Friday last week. That was cleared, multiple fault codes too - and it's back running perfectly!

/Anders

KGK is the same that arranged the rebuild of my box, thats correct. Around 18.000 NOK + vat is their average consumer price on rebuilding this box from what my Bosch-friend told me. Workshops normally have a discount on this. The price is very nice imo.

I know about the connector issue, it is really just asking for water by the way it is constructed - but my connector has always been dry and fine. I am very happy for you that it turned out to be that easy fix this time :)

My box is now just perfect, and it was well worth every penny compared to how it was driving before. And IF my gearbox did not break down AND i knew how much better it would perform after rebuild, i definitively would have done this rebuild regardless.

...and let me add that i checked the price on an exchange gearbox from Renault in Germany. In total approx 5500 euros + shipping..... :o and that is for a gearbox that is factory repaired most probably at ZF just like my box. ;D

That's aboslutely madness, but not surprising knowing the price of spares from Renault.

/Anders

hello,
i'm french guy, i'm pleased to find some other country person liking this car, wich is a bit special.
any way i have the same problem on my espace; i'm interested to know how to take off the gear box without the engine, could tell me how to do it.
thanks
perhaps my english is some time weird, you know i 'm french

Hello Claude and welcome to the forum! Yes it is a special car, and I have never seen a 24v Espace III in France, so it's probably more exotic in it's home country than here in Denmark, where it enjoys some popularity.

I think Tom will give a better answer to your question, but as far as I understand, the job involves twisting the drivechain somewhat down on the gearbox side. But the right engine mount (on the engine) does not need to be removed.

What problems are you having with the car?

Regards,
Anders

It is no problem to take off the gearbox without removing engine - worst part is to remove and put back the TDC sensor because of its location ::)

I will try to make a small list:

Remove,
- Air filter box and hoses
- battery
- battery surroundings included transmission computer
- both sides inner plastic wing mud covers
- loosen and pull out both driveshafts from the gearbox by removing the 2 big bolts on the damper mountings - you have to loosen the right hand engine mounted driveshaft bearing to pull out the right hand side
- disconnect cooling hoses connected to the gearbox cooler
- disconnect the gearbox electrical connector and put aside the cables
- unclip carefully the gearbox control cable (FRAGILE!! do not twist too much or it may brake off)
- Locate the TDC sensor and loosen it by unscrewing the 10mm bolt (difficult area to work - it will help to take off the control cable mounting)
- take off the body earth strap connected on the gearbox end
- unscrew the converter 3 bolts from underneath (starter plate) by turning the engine for each bolt
- drop the gearbox top mount (strap the engine first) allowing the complete assy to tilt down a few cm
- loosen the 5 bolts connecting gearbox to engine
- pull the gearbox from the engine approx 2-3 cm and drop it down carefully.

It is all about creating enough space so you can locate bolts and removing it without destroying anything. Take your time and you should be okay. Remember the gearbox weight is 90 kg so handle with care!

Use locktite on the converter bolts when putting back together (book says probably to renew them), also measure the triangle metal plate against the engine to make sure it is not bent -creating a twist in the rotation of the converter - it must be straight. Also make sure it is not cracked or damaged.

On the converter center it is a plastic ring - do not loose this one.

I hope some of this is understandeable, but once you start with the job it is pretty much traight forward.

Please come back if you have problems and/or when you are done.

THANK YOU GUYS FOR YOUR ANWERS
I HAVE TO TAKE MY COURAGE BEFORE DOING IT
ANY WAY MY PROBLEM IS ABOUT THE CONVERTER WHICH IS VERY NOISY AND MAKE A FAULT AFTER A TEN MINUTES RUN; I JUST HAVE TO TURN OFF THE ENGINE AND THEN IT GOES FOR AN OTHER RUN. IT GET REALLY HOT IN THE HOOD.
I JUST WONDER IS IN THE 4 GEAR, IT IS REALLY DIRECT AND NOT USING THE CONVERTER?????

AN OTHER QUESTION
DID YOU EVER THOUGHT ABOUT MODIFYING YOUR ESPACE IN AN ELECTRIC CAR AND GET RID OFF ALL THOSE ENGINE AND GEAR PROBLEME?

I HAVE SEVERAL ADRESS FOR CHEAP PART IF YOU ARE INTEREST LET ME KNOW

THANK YOU AGAIN FOR YOUR HELP
CLAUDE

http://www.lubexcel.com/71141-bidon-p-280.html

I BOUGHT THIS FOR DRAINING THE GEAR AND THAT WAS CHEAP

Excuse my bad English!

I just want to say that the best way to change oil in an automatic transmission is using Wynn’s TranServ.
 http://www.wynns.be/product.aspx?nav=2&g=2&s=34&b=68414&p=68414&l=EN

There are 3 TranServ in Sweden. And we bought one last autumn. And this year we have not had to replace a single automatic transmission, or reconditioned.

After oil change becomes the car to drive like a new!

Before we had very much problem with Volvo, and change control systems in the automatic transmission.

Nissen

And the price is ?...... :o

From www.wynnsbutiken.se (Wynn's Sweden) i think we give 26000:-SEK With 12 or 24 Wynn's Automatic Transmission Flush and 12 or 24 Wynn's Automatic Transmission Treatment.

It's cheap compared to changing automatic transmission or renovation of the control system (20000:-SEK)

But it is not for an individual to have. Maybe some guys go together and buy one.