MatraSport Forum

Each model => Bagheera => Topic started by: LocoRacer on June 07, 2009, 12:02:01 am



Title: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: LocoRacer on June 07, 2009, 12:02:01 am
Hi everyone, just picked up a 1981 Bagheera 1442. Pretty good condition, but looking for a few things, need to buy a new seal for the windscreen, I am contemplating fitting an electric fuel pump since the old one seems to be problematic. Also need a spare wheel for the front, its been sitting for 12 years and trying to bring it back to life, can anyone give any pointers as to things to be done? I have taken the filters off, free'd the bores and got it running. It has an ANSA exhaust system and some period Momo wheels but otherwise 100% standard. Thanks, Torrian, Essex, UK


Title: Re: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: Spyros on June 07, 2009, 09:41:33 am
Seal for the windscreen ?? The winscreen is glued. Do you mean the surrounding ? But then, which model because there are no 1981 Bagheera. It must be a 1980 or a 1979 or even earlier model

May I advise against the electric fuel pump. The mechanical are not too difficult to get by and work perfectly.
With an electrical one, you will have to deal with a presure regulator and maybe a return to the tank

What you need to do is check for the rust.
Get under the dashboard and look at the windscreen bay.
Get in the boot and slam the sides and the rear bottom
Remove a sils cover


Title: Re: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: andyowl on June 07, 2009, 10:21:38 am
Welcome to the Bagheera world!

In addition to Spyros' suggestions have a look at the back wheels of the car from the rear. Are they vertical or sloping in at the top? Vertical is what they should be while sloping inwards suggests some corrosion around the rear suspension mounts.

- Is it Right or Left hand drive?
- Colour (inside and out) now and has it been a different colour in the past as many have been repainted in the last 30 years?)
- Fabric sun roof or not?
- The registration number might enable the Matra Club editor, Roy Gillard, to tell you what the club knows of its history.
- The "VIN" (chassis number) will tell you when it was made. There will probably be an "X" at the start of the number and another around halfway through. The number before the second "X" is the year of manufacture e.g. "7" says 1977. I have a Bagheera with a "V" registration number but that was the year it was first registered in the UK, not when it was made.

Might I suggest joining the Matra Enthusiasts Club UK? I didn't discover the club's existance until I had restored our original Bagheera in 1992. It would have been so much easier although if they had seen how bad it was they might have disuaded me from starting at all! The car is still in use. I used it yesterday to go shopping and four weeks ago it was competing in an "AutoSolo" with the Farnborough District Motor Club.

Once again, welcome. They are a good bunch on here!

Andy Owler
01372 844152 (Surrey)


Title: Re: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: LocoRacer on June 08, 2009, 12:33:19 am
Thanks for your help. The car was a dark metalic grey but some bright spart has matt blacked the bottom half of the car. Glass sunroof, Grey tweed interior its a left hand drive imported from france in 1981 by the looks of the log book.
I have established I need a new fuel pump, plus the studs to mount it, since they both seem to be missing with just a plug in their place.
Can anyone point me in the right direction? Also can anyone tell me if the door pins becoming disconnected upon opening and closing the door is a common problem, had the door cards on and off repeatedly.
Does the fuel pump need to be specifically for the bagheera or does an early MG one work? The diagram I have of it looks very similar. Thanks, will look up the register.


Title: Re: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: lewisman on June 08, 2009, 01:16:11 am
Broken door pins are not un-common.   If they sieze then they tend to snap.  Same with Alpines and Horizons - which made replacing doors a pain!

I used to have a Sikes Pickavant tooll which worked quite well:

http://www.concepttools.co.uk/p/SYKES-PICKAVANT-HINGE-PIN-TOOL-3324.aspx

The mechanical fuel pump on the 1.6 is generally reliable.  No real problems with it  - more than I can say for the 2.2!


Title: Re: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: andyowl on June 08, 2009, 08:30:56 am
The original mechanical fuel pump is secured by (M8?) bolts and not by studs. I'll get the part number for you later if you wish but it should be easily available from motor factors. The fuel pump from the Talbot Rancho or Chrysler Alpine will fit and probably the Horizon also. It is basically the same engine. It should have three connections (suction from the tank, discharge to the carbs and recirculation back to the tank to get rid of trapped air and prevent vapour lock).

The Haynes manual for the Chrysler Alpine is very useful for Bagheera owners who don't have the french language original. There is also a Bagheera manual in English written by a club expert for a very modest sum.

What you may have trouble getting is the fibre spacer which fits between the pump and the crankcase to get the right stroke on the pump lever. But that could be made if you can get the thickness. Memory says about 5-8mm thick.

What pumps the fuel at the moment? A separate electric pump presumably. I have often thought of fitting an electric pump but never got around to it. The only problem with the mechanical pump it the time it can take to fill the carbs after the car has been idle for some time e.g. a week or more. The engine has to turn over over for ages and that can knacker the battery if it is already tired. So I suggest caution before refitting a mechanical pump if the electric one is working OK.

Andy Owler
01372 844152


Title: Re: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: LocoRacer on June 08, 2009, 09:11:14 am
Well at the moment there is no pump at all, someone has fashioned a t-piece and a fairy bottle to pump the fuel in! So need something. So if i can find a new pump with the gasket I should go for that. Then just experiment with some bolts. I have been running the car with a direct feed just to get it running. Has worked, but now I know why there was no continuation. Because there was no fuel supply, lol.
Will have to take a look at that tool lewisman, thanks for the tip.


Title: Re: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: andyowl on June 08, 2009, 09:42:27 am
The only time I have had a mechanical fuel pump failure I managed to get home by rearranging the pipework to connect the fuel tank directly to the carbs, bypassing the pump, and blowing into the petrol tank to pressurize it thus forcing the petrol into the carbs. There was still pressuure in the tank when I got home 10km later!

I wonder if one could use the air compressor from the air horns to pressurize the tank? ::) Maybe too much pressure? But it would serve to fill the carbs when starting the engine after a long rest. Needs more thought and perhaps a pressure relief valve.

Andy


Title: Re: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: andyowl on June 08, 2009, 10:15:02 am
Mechanical fuel pump for a 1442 Bagheera (and all other sizes based on that engine) is Quinton Hazell part number QFP103. Should be available from your local motor factor.

Spacer thickness to follow.

Andy


Title: Re: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: LocoRacer on June 08, 2009, 07:39:58 pm
Thnaks Andy, will give me local a call in the morning with that number. If anyone knows of a place to get a spacer? If not spacer thickness would be cool and optimum material and i'll see if my mate can make me one up at work.


Title: Re: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: andyowl on June 08, 2009, 11:13:32 pm
I have not today been able to remove a spacer and measure it but the consensus is that it is there to isolate the block heat from the pump and therefore it should be non-metallic. Plastic of some sort would do. 5mm thick is the approx thickness.

Best I can do at present.

Andy Owler


Title: Re: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: LocoRacer on June 09, 2009, 07:16:58 pm
Ok thanks, well I am trying to locate one of these spacers so I can either get it re-manufactured or something. Otherwise not sure where to start.


Title: Re: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: LocoRacer on June 09, 2009, 07:28:06 pm
Also meant to ask if qfp 150 will fit? its listed as 1.5 bagheera 1977-1979 I know you have said it was qfp103 but I dont know if this will fit to?


Title: Re: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: andyowl on June 09, 2009, 07:36:00 pm
I did not see the QFP150 listed in the Quinton Hazell list (download it from their website). Can't help you on that one!

Andy Owler


Title: Re: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: LocoRacer on June 10, 2009, 09:13:09 am
found out the qfp 150 is the qfp 103 but with re-circulation, could i use this pump still?


Title: Re: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: andyowl on June 10, 2009, 11:35:22 am
The Bagheera manual certainly shows the recirculation pipework. An 0.7mm orifice for recirculation is also mentioned but I cannot remember if that is in the fuel pump outlet or in the pipework near the tank.

Andy


Title: Re: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: suffolkpete on June 10, 2009, 06:25:52 pm
This fuel pump business confuses me.  I recently bought an AC 416.30 fuel pump.  It was sold as being suitable for a Solara 1600, so I assumed it would fit my Murena 1.6 but when it arrived, it did not have the recirculation outlet.  If it is of any use to anyone, I'll sell it for what I paid for it, otherwise I'll put it on eBay when I find out what the correct application is.


Title: Re: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: andyowl on June 10, 2009, 08:37:38 pm
Does the Murena 1.6 have fuel tank recirculation?

The Bagheera has two pipes connecting the pump to the tank. One is suction from the tank and the other recirculation back to the tank. From memory the suction connection to the pump is on the bottom of the pump diaphragm and the discharge pipe to the carbs and the recirculation pipe  are both above the diaphragm.

I shall have my head in the Bagheera engine bay tomorrow and can see for myself, so unless anyone else comes up with an answer I'll post here again.

Andy Owler


Title: Re: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: suffolkpete on June 10, 2009, 09:57:28 pm
Quote
Does the Murena 1.6 have fuel tank recirculation
  Yes it does, that's why I can't use the pump.  I've got a Talbot Alpine Haynes manual, which only shows the recirculating pump for all engine variants.


Title: Re: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: andyowl on June 11, 2009, 12:17:28 am
If you put a "Tee" in the pipe to the carb, with the leg of the Tee upwards, to make it easy for the air to get back to the tank, you can create a recirc connection of your own.  Demon Tweeks do several starting around 2.50.

Fit the Tee as near the carb as possible.

Andy


Title: Re: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: suffolkpete on June 11, 2009, 08:44:36 am
I'm not totally convinced by that.  I thought that the purpose of the by-pass was to return excess fuel to the tank and maintain a constant pressure at the carb.  Putting a tee piece in will simply relieve most of the pressure to the carb and all the fuel will go back to the tank instead of to the carb because there is a certain amount of resistance in the carb caused by the needle valve and the filter.  Surely some sort of pressure regulator is needed in the by-pass?


Title: Re: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: LocoRacer on June 11, 2009, 09:37:57 am
So if I can jump in again, fuel pump with re-circulation for a bagheera, is that a yes? lol


Title: Re: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: andyowl on June 11, 2009, 11:52:41 am
a) Yes Bagheeras have a fuel recirc system to prevent vapour lock etc.

b) The Tee piece idea still requires a small orifice in the line between the tee and the tank to allow the air/vapour to pass through and cause enough back pressure to force fuel through the float valve into the float chamber(s).

I made a flow restrictor from a piece of copper pipe e.g. brake pipe, squashed in a vice and/or hammered nearly flat and inserted into the fuel pipe after the tee piece.
The official Matra restrictor hole size is 0.7mm diameter but I can't drill a hole that small at home.

Andy


Title: Re: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: Spyros on June 13, 2009, 12:21:25 pm
Andy,

The restrictor in the mechanical pump is just forced in (Still remember when it came loose on one of my bags)
So, you could use the one of an old damaged pump
(or buy a new socabex for abour 15 euros)

By the way, my (french speaking) manual is still available


Title: Re: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: LocoRacer on June 14, 2009, 03:26:33 pm
How much is your comprehensive manual? My friend has a classic car business, I did him a little sketch and he reckons he's got summin to use for the spacer from an early pug.


Title: Re: New Bagheera Owner
Post by: Spyros on June 14, 2009, 05:13:09 pm
The spacer was indeed in use on some Peiugeot 309 (the ones using the same 1300 cc engine)
The manual is explained in another post
I send it everywhere in Europe for 50 euros