MatraSport Forum

Each model => Murena => Topic started by: macaroni on July 13, 2009, 08:49:40 am



Title: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: macaroni on July 13, 2009, 08:49:40 am
Driving home on Friday and night, in a traffic queue, and the car just stopped. No warning, nothing.
After kicking it for a while and getting towed home, I started looking at it. There is plenty of fuel getting through, but no spark.
There is power at the coil, but nothing coming out of the dizzy so that's my prime suspect.

I knew I should have kept the 1.9gti engined car I sold a few weeks ago...


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 13, 2009, 06:49:00 pm
How very annoying! I remember you had problems with your ignition module some years back - could that be your problem again? In any case, I hope you get it fixed before you regret selling the other Murena too much ;)

/Anders


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: macaroni on July 13, 2009, 07:07:03 pm
I did have problems with the ignition module, but that was replaced and the symptoms are different.

I now suspect the coil, but that was also replaced soon after I got the car.

Does the 2.2 engine have a ballast resistor? A local car electrician, who seemed to know about these cars, reckoned it did, but I can't one anywhere in the vicinity of the coil/ignition module.

Any help gratefully received.

Antony


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 13, 2009, 07:59:47 pm
I did have problems with the ignition module, but that was replaced and the symptoms are different.

I now suspect the coil, but that was also replaced soon after I got the car.

So was mine, but it turned out to be faulty anyway. It was either the wrong type or a bad coil, or both. I'm now running with a used Bosch salvaged from another Murena as that was what I had when I realised that my coil was to blame for all the running problems I had, and NOT my new Weber's ;)

Quote
Does the 2.2 engine have a ballast resistor? A local car electrician, who seemed to know about these cars, reckoned it did, but I can't one anywhere in the vicinity of the coil/ignition module.

Absolutely no. Ballast resistors are only used with 9V coils, where the resistor is bypassed while the engine is cranking to give a better spark when the starter motor is loading the battery. That's not necessary with electronic ignition which doesn't drive the coil by voltage, but by current. So you need a coil for Bosch electronic ignition. A good auto electrician should be able to help you there.

/Anders


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: macaroni on July 13, 2009, 08:05:51 pm
Thanks very much Anders.

I removed the coil and it looks like a real cheap one, but it was fitted in an emergency, so I guess it could be at fault.

I'm surprised the auto electrician guy mentioned the ballast resistor, as he knew the ignition was electronic.

I'll try and get one tomorrow.

Cheers bud.


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 13, 2009, 08:15:53 pm
Cheers bud.

Cheers, good luck!


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: michaltalbot on July 13, 2009, 10:22:22 pm
My old silver 2,2 did exactly the same. I drove long distance and in one moment it stoped and engine wasn't able to start. After some searching I found that coil connectors were released. They were on their place, but have no contact. It was simply a result of lot of demounting / mounting them from the coil. So I squeezed them a little and everything was O.K.  ;) Very often the biggest problems are caused by the smallest reason  :)


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: macaroni on July 14, 2009, 05:02:45 pm
Well I had the coil tested and it seems OK. I guess I need to dismantle, clean and refit the whole ignition system and see if that helps.

I won't feel confident though as I won't have found anything "wrong".

I can feel another sale coming on...


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 15, 2009, 07:59:29 am
Well I had the coil tested and it seems OK. I guess I need to dismantle, clean and refit the whole ignition system and see if that helps.

Don't worry - you'll find the problem. It's there! At lest you don't have a periodic fault - they can turn your hair really grey.

/Anders


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: roy4matra on July 17, 2009, 12:54:09 pm
Driving home on Friday and night, in a traffic queue, and the car just stopped. No warning, nothing.
After kicking it for a while and getting towed home, I started looking at it. There is plenty of fuel getting through, but no spark.
There is power at the coil, but nothing coming out of the dizzy so that's my prime suspect.

It sounds quite simple, and I can't understand the supposed electrician and his suggestion or analysis.  He's not much of an electrician in my opinion!  If you have 12v power at the coil then it can't be a ballast system! (and as Anders pointed out this is an electronic system anyway!)  You pull the king lead from the distributor, hold it close to a vehicle earth and turn the engine over.  You should get a series of sparks.  If you do, the coil, amplifier and distributor appear to be working.  If you don't, you have a problem with one of them.

If you now refit the king lead and pull one of the spark plug leads off a plug and repeat the test, you should get a series of sparks again but obviously less often than before.  If you don't, then the fault is either with the rotor arm or distributor.  If you do, then check all plug leads if necessary to make sure they are all getting sparks.  I once had a distributor that only fired on two plugs as the rotor shaft bearings were worn and it was not making contact on the other two.

As always, tracking down a fault involves collecting information and analysing the results, to lead you to the cause of the fault.

Roy.


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: macaroni on July 18, 2009, 09:04:17 pm

As always, tracking down a fault involves collecting information and analysing the results, to lead you to the cause of the fault.

Roy.

That all sounds very dull and boring, so I just replaced the coil, as that was the only thing I could actually buy, and would you believe it, it works!

I don't know if it was actually the coil, or something else I fixed while faffing about, but anyway, it starts.

Unless it has a good 6 months of solid reliability, its going by the end of the year.
I've got my sights on something Italian and twin-turboed...


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: michaltalbot on July 18, 2009, 10:27:28 pm
Italian and twinturboed...?

Two synonyms for high reliability :D (take it easy ;) )


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: lewisman on July 18, 2009, 11:17:08 pm
"Two synonyms for high reliability"

unless of course it is one of the new Bravo jtd's ;)


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: davidewanprice on July 19, 2009, 02:54:27 pm
Would it by chance be a V6 with twin turbos or V8! maserati maybe?


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: macaroni on July 19, 2009, 06:29:00 pm
I have been offered a Maserati Quattroporte Evoluzionne with the Murena as part exchange, which I am very tempted to do.
The main problem is that the interior of the Maser is monstrously beige, which I hate. It did get me looking at 4portes and 3200gts which are tantalisingly cheap, but as has been pointed out, not exactly dependable.
When the Murena breaks down it is an inconvenience, but if/when the Maser breaks it will be inconvenient and very expensive and in the case of the 3200gt, dangerous.

Anyway, enough dreaming, I'm off for a spin in the Matra, wish me luck!


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: michaltalbot on July 19, 2009, 07:23:09 pm
You hit the point, macaroni ;) at these times it's easy to buy lot of very fast or luxury cars, but what to do with them? Their price is only a small part of their expenses. For less than 3000,-E you can find old Maserati Biturbo, Mercedes 500SE W140, BMW 750i, Renault 25 V6 Turbo, Peugeot 605 3,0 V6, etc. but they are full of electronics and lot of complicated systems of equipement. Service and spare parts are very expensive on these cars, so when somebody is selling this car, of course that isn't spending money for its service, it means that it's a hole for money.


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: davidewanprice on July 19, 2009, 09:03:39 pm
My father has a Bi turbo 424 (i think?) which has the late Italian spec 2 litre twin turbo, now the biturbos aren’t to everyone’s taste but this one so far has been reliable and cheap-ish to run... The engine is sooo nice and sounds beautiful.. But Italian car electrics are like French car electrics... testing! And then theres the tin rot. My fathers car was a fresh Italian import so all is very good but the first one he had which was a larger UK spec car was like a colander! He deals with a guy in Leicester who seems both helpful, and fairly cheap… He has allsorts available at all budgets!

You sound like the Murena has lost your affections at the moment… that’s a shame!


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: roy4matra on July 19, 2009, 09:46:46 pm

As always, tracking down a fault involves collecting information and analysing the results, to lead you to the cause of the fault.

Roy.

That all sounds very dull and boring, so I just replaced the coil, as that was the only thing I could actually buy, and would you believe it, it works!

I don't know if it was actually the coil, or something else I fixed while faffing about, but anyway, it starts.

It may be dull and boring, but it makes sure you know you found the fault.  As the Murena is quite a simple car, you hit lucky but it could have been a waste of money simply because you can't be bothered to do a simple test.  So you are not even absolutely sure you have cured it (it could have been a poor connection that you disturbed and if so it could fail again, but you will simply blame it on the car, not your lack of correct fault diagnosis!)

If you buy a more complicated car like the Italian twin turbo, or any more modern car with complex electronics, how do you expect to sort problems on them if you can't even be bothered to do it correctly on something simple?  No, don't bother to answer, as it's a rhetorical question.  I'm trying to help but if people don't want it, I'm wasting my time...

Best of luck with your more complex cars, you'll need it.  Or a lot of cash...

Roy


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 19, 2009, 10:17:35 pm
You will be missed in the Matra community, Antony, should you decide to move on, but I appreciate a mans need to follow his dreams.... and a Maserati quattroporte is a bella macchina in its own way! :D

/Anders


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: suffolkpete on July 19, 2009, 11:12:04 pm
The last Quattroporte I saw was when I was on my way to the Club run at Romorantin.  It was being pushed through the barrier at Dover by the four Poles in the Golf behind after it broke down.  I did 1000 miles in four days inthe Murena that weekend without problems.


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: macaroni on July 20, 2009, 01:25:53 pm
Sorry Roy, I didn't mean to offend, it was just a silly comment.
As it happens, despite extensive and successful testing yesterday, it broke down again this morning, so it wasn't the coil!
Anyway, a garage who will undertake a far more methodical approach than I did are now looking after it.

Any Maser I buy will not be worked on by me, that's for sure.

David, I will PM you...


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: macaroni on August 18, 2009, 09:59:55 pm
Got it back today and the garage claimed it was a problem with the wire going to the ignition amplifier.
I wouldn't have found that in a month of Sundays.
I have given it a good thrashing and will give it a couple more before chancing the M25 commute to work.
Fingers crossed!


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Jon Weywadt on August 19, 2009, 02:24:57 pm
They are old cars, so unfortunately they break down from time to time. :'(

Yesterday, on the way home from work, I got stuck in a queue. We moved maybe 100 meters per minurte.

After a kilometer of that I noticed steam coming from under the car. I pulled over and looked underneath, only to discover that one of the coolant pipes had cracked where the bracket holds it to the bottom of the car (and where they rust the most)  :'( Steam was pouring out, but not a stream of water.

Since we were nearly where I turn for home, I decided to drive it the last kilometer.

Then, 200 m before I make a left turn at the light, we were picking up a little speed. I shifted from 2.nd. to 3rd. only to discover that the shifter linkage popped off and I was stuck in neutral. I tried to coast to the turn lane, but didn't make it.

So there I was in the fast lane, now a new problem for the queued up trafic. Hazard flashers on I opened the lid to the engine and tried to twist my arm around the airfilter to get the link back on. Burned the sh... out of my right arm due to the now very hot engine compartment. No luck.

Changing tactics, I got my mechanics mat out of the boot, laid down on the ground and got the link back on from underneath.  :) Just as I was removing my arm, my elbow touched the exhaust pipe. %&/¤##=.  >:( Now I had two burnt arms and the pain caused me to not pay attention when getting up, so I crushed my sunglasses.  >:( >:( >:(

I have now temporarily patched the hole in the pipe and need to figure out how I get the system filled up again. The water I pour into the expansion tank, only slowly seeps in. I have opened the bleed screw on the coolant hose over by the thermostat. But does the thermostat need to open for the water to fill the radiator and hoses?

What an end ,to an other wise nice day.  ::)


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 19, 2009, 05:41:05 pm
Jon, to answer your question about refilling the cooling system: Roy's FAQ has this:
http://www.matraclub.org.uk/faq8.html#top

I told you they weren't going to last long, Jon! ;)

And I'm going to urge you not to drive the car before you have new pipes fitted! The reason you didn't get any water out the system is that it was boiling inside the engine. This happens when pressure can't be maintained inside the engine as when a leak occurs. It doesn't have to be a large leak to cause boiling! Even with apparantly sufficientl amounts of water in the expansion tank, the engine may become damaged, when you have leak.

The problem with boiling water is that it cannot transfer any heat. This means that the cooling effect of the water system degrades seriously. So I'm afraid you are a bit lucky that you didn't damage the engine when you drove it with the damaged pipe...

Even if you think you have repaired the leak, it will most likely break again - either on the repair, or another place. You might be lucky once, but twice... I wouldn't count on it! New cylinder heads for your 2.2 are extremely expensive :(

/Anders


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: macaroni on August 19, 2009, 09:27:15 pm
I feel for you Jon. I've had 2 separate problems hit me at the same time before.
Its almost like the car hates you...

Anyway, I've given mine another blast around the Kent countryside and it goes very well, so I have enough confidence (courage?) to try it on the M25 tomorrow.


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Jon Weywadt on August 19, 2009, 10:10:18 pm
Jon, to answer your question about refilling the cooling system: Roy's FAQ has this:
http://www.matraclub.org.uk/faq8.html#top
Thanks Anders. Roy's site is, as always, a goldmine of Murena information.  :)

Jan, Jesper and I are ordering the stainless steel coolant and heater tube kit from MatraMagic. We have negotiated a special shipping rate for the three sets, so I am placing the order tonight.

I will take your advice and not drive it until the pipes are changed. The caked rust has made the pipes brittle in several places.

You are right abot the steam. I think the engine was just about dry. Perhaps the nanno-ceramic RVS compound I put in the oil, kept it from seizing up. It still fires up and still runs smooth. ;D ;D


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: KiJa on August 19, 2009, 10:28:31 pm
I feel for you Jon, hope that your on the road again soon.

Will you post som pictures of process of change the stinless pipes, i am self a bit interested in these, to avoid problems in the future.

Kim


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 19, 2009, 10:44:57 pm
Thanks Anders. Roy's site is, as always, a goldmine of Murena information.  :)

Indeed it is. I'm personally hoping (perhaps even expecting) that it will move over to the new Wiki section Lennart is implementing. That would make it easier to access, and we would also be able to amend information to articles. Instead of relying on one person to update everything, we can all do it.

Quote
Jan, Jesper and I are ordering the stainless steel coolant and heater tube kit from MatraMagic. We have negotiated a special shipping rate for the three sets, so I am placing the order tonight.

That sounds like a very good idea. It's a solid investment ;D

Quote
You are right abot the steam. I think the engine was just about dry. Perhaps the nanno-ceramic RVS compound I put in the oil, kept it from seizing up. It still fires up and still runs smooth. ;D ;D

That's very good to hear. I'll keep my fingers crossed for your head, then... well not yours, of course, but the cylinder head. They don't like overheating. Watch out for water in the oil!  :o

@Anthony, yes I think we all know the feeling of "my car hates me!"... it can be quite devastating. I would like to think my car likes me as much as I like it ;D

/Anders


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: macaroni on August 22, 2009, 08:35:12 pm
Small update, the car runs, but badly. It was OK for a couple of commutes, but at the end of each, 20 mile, journey it coughed and spluttered its way home/to work.
Now it coughs and splutters all the time and the idle is very lumpy.

Checked;
Compression - good (4 x 150psi, engine cold)
coil - new
ignition amp - new
plugs - new
dizzy cap - good
No wiring arcing anywhere
Mixture at idle, MOT-passable.

Next job, replace ignition leads.
If that doesn't help; set fire to it.


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: suffolkpete on August 22, 2009, 09:05:39 pm
You can do a rough check on the ignition leads with a multimeter.  Measure the resistance, anything up to about 40k ohms is probably ok.  If it's higher, or if the resistance changes when you waggle them, change them.  If it were mine, I'd be looking at the carburation.  The fact that it's an MoT pass doesn't tell you much.  Look for air leaks on the induction side, round the brake servo and headlamp system.  Take the carb off and clean out the float chamber and idle jets.


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: macaroni on August 22, 2009, 09:40:43 pm
Thanks.
The carbs are my next port of call (after I've put the fire out...).

Thing is I have twin Dellortos, so its quite a job, but I guess it will have to be jobbed.



Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 22, 2009, 10:07:47 pm
Thanks.
The carbs are my next port of call (after I've put the fire out...).

LOL!

I tend to think the same... what kind of fuel pump are you running? I ask because I had all kinds of running problems because of a fuel pump that played up with me during autumn. I kept blaming the carbs, but it was just the electrical pump which sometimes stopped spplying fuel. The car would run ok for a while, then start hesitating as the float drained out, finally stopping completely. The confusing part was that when I put ignition on the pump again, it immediately filled the floats.

Side draught Dellortos and Weber's have integral fuel filters, so they seldomly go wrong.

You could also have an air leak. Manifold to head, most likely. The gasket is very thin, and I've seen mine get sucked in around one cylinder.

/Anders


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: macaroni on August 23, 2009, 09:50:24 am
I am using the standard mechanical fuel pump.
I suspected this weeks ago when it first conked out, but the inline fuel filter seems pretty full and there is plenty of fuel at the carb banjos.
I have heard that fuel pump issues can seem like ignition issues though.

Another variable to think about!


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 23, 2009, 03:22:39 pm
I am using the standard mechanical fuel pump.

Well the mechanical pump is very reliable. The earlier ones can develop a leak, but the later ones which are bolted together shouldn't suffer from this problem.

Electrical pumps rely on a little circuit or contact, a solenoid to pump the diaphragm back, and a spring to push it forward. There's a few things that can go wrong there. The mechanical pump simply pumps when the cam turns. It's dead simple. A return line ensures that unconsumed fuel (usually most of it) is fed back to the tank. The electrical pump only supplies the amount of fuel consumed by the carbs and doesn't need a return line.

So the two systems are different, but I don't think it's fair to say one is better than the other. For reliability, the mechanical is probably superior.

I'm running an electrical pump since it's part of my immobilizer circuit.

So I think your problem is on the carbs and that something is blocking a fuel line one or the other - or both.

Before you take them off and apart, you could check the float level when the car is running well, and compare it to when it's failing.

I don't know the Dellortos as such, but I have a book which covers them, and as far as I can see, you should be able to check the float level through the rectangular inspection cover where access is made to the main jets. I think you can see the top of the float and can measure the distance from the top of the float to the top of the carb cover with a vernier caliper. If the float level is very low (further down) when the engine is failing, it could be fuel supply.

/Anders


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: macaroni on August 23, 2009, 09:18:29 pm
Anders,
I think you could be right about it being carb issues.
I sprayed some brake cleaner across each barrel, with the engine running, and as I passed the barrel for cylinder 1 (? - near gearbox), the engine picked up.
The spray was quite localised and the effect was definitely much greater at cylinder 1.
So I am assuming there is a leak between the carb and inlet manifold.
I checked the jets and floats today - all good.

When you fitted your Webers, did you use "cups and rubbers" or "Thackeray washers" to mount the carbs?


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 23, 2009, 09:43:37 pm
When you fitted your Webers, did you use "cups and rubbers" or "Thackeray washers" to mount the carbs?

Thackeray washers as they were slightly cheaper. The carbs came with plastic o-ring carriers, but I have converted to MISAB spacers now, as I was not sure about the plastic o-ring carriers' ability to seal.

A piece of water hose is a good tool for finding air leaks - put one end to your ear and move the other end around the carbs until you spot the hissing sound.

Leaks are most likely on the top, since the weight of the carburettors tend to open the gap there.

/Anders


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: macaroni on September 16, 2009, 09:03:31 am
Well, I fitted my Misab plates and thackeray washers and the car ran much better, but after a few hundred yards (metres..) it would cough and run badly. Each day for several days, it would cough at the same place on my way to work. I'd pull over, fiddle with various things; ignition leads, vacuum pipes, position of air vents, anything, and then it would be OK. After a few days of this I got very cross and put it back into my garage and went to work in my trusty Alfa.
I ordered some new leads from Will, as they were the only part of the ignition system I hadn't changed. Fitted them, took it or a run, after a few minutes it coughed and misfired all the way home. Argh! I then checked the tightness of the carb bolts and while the air filters were off, I checked the balance of the carbs - perfect.
While I was checking the carbs, with the engine running, my hand brushed against the distributor and I got a shock! My feet were off the floor (in time-honoured Murena-mechanic fashion), so that couldn't be right.
I checked the inside of the dizzy cap and it looked perfect, but as I had a spare I tried that.
Result! The car now runs fantastically!

The distributor cap looks fine, and is only a few months old, but is seemingly at fault.
I drove into work today and the car felt wonderful, very strong and pulled very well right up to licence-busting speeds.

I hope I don't speak too soon, but I think my woes are over, for now.

Thanks for listening!

Antony


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Oetker on September 16, 2009, 05:46:43 pm
There is a simple way to find this kind of problems.
Take a fine watersprayer, for example a can of windowcleaner, and spray some water on ignition and leads to the sparkplugs.
If they have a leak you see blue sparks.
If so, it is time to swap the parts for new.


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Anders Dinsen on September 16, 2009, 07:17:13 pm
I hope I don't speak too soon, but I think my woes are over, for now.

Hooray! Well done. That was not obvious given the fact that the cap was almost new! It must have had a bad connection from the centre lead to the rotor or something?

There is a simple way to find this kind of problems.

Excellent idea, but why didn't you tell him long ago? :)

/Anders



Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Oetker on September 16, 2009, 09:14:37 pm
Quote Anders
----------------
Excellent idea, but why didn't you tell him long ago?
=====================================

I have no idea, it just came up again when he told about the shocking moment.
I think it's ok to put it in for the knowledge.
It is perfect for finding out leaky HT cables en rotorcaps.


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: macaroni on September 16, 2009, 09:43:05 pm
Good idea Oetker, I'll do that next time instead of using my hand!

It coughed and spluttered again on the way home tonight, but when I stopped to check it out, one of eth HT leads had come off the dizzy cap. Its all very strange.


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Anders Dinsen on September 17, 2009, 06:24:52 am
I have no idea, it just came up again when he told about the shocking moment.
I think it's ok to put it in for the knowledge.
It is perfect for finding out leaky HT cables en rotorcaps.

Indeed, it's a good idea to share it :)

It coughed and spluttered again on the way home tonight, but when I stopped to check it out, one of eth HT leads had come off the dizzy cap. Its all very strange.

Hmm... I think it's time to give your car a good polish? It's like buying your wife flowers - it sometimes works ;D

/Anders


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: macaroni on September 17, 2009, 09:24:42 am
Like the Matra, that stopped working a looong time ago!


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Anders Dinsen on September 17, 2009, 05:40:11 pm
Like the Matra, that stopped working a looong time ago!

Haha, well you are right... I don't know what I was thinking about... ;D


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: macaroni on September 18, 2009, 09:06:43 pm
Well I spoke too soon and last night after an evening of transporting kids around, it started to cough and splutter and this morning it refused to start at all.
I'm thoroughly sick and tired of this car.


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Oetker on September 18, 2009, 09:25:13 pm
Well I spoke too soon and last night after an evening of transporting kids around, it started to cough and splutter and this morning it refused to start at all.
I'm thoroughly sick and tired of this car.

That's better.
Now you can start looking for the real problem in a logical way.


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: macaroni on September 19, 2009, 12:42:59 pm
OK, I have 8v across the coil with the ignition on, but when I crank it, there is no spark coming out of the coil. I tested this by replacing the king lead from the coil with a plug lead and a plug stuck in the end. There was no spark across the plug.
Assuming I did this correctly and there is power across the coil, albeit lower than 12v,  but nothing coming out of it, it would suggest the coil was broken.
However, it is a brand new coil, only a few weeks old.
Should I still suspect the coil, or try something else?

Antony


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Jon Weywadt on September 19, 2009, 02:02:50 pm
Jan, Jesper and I are ordering the stainless steel coolant and heater tube kit from MatraMagic. We have negotiated a special shipping rate for the three sets, so I am placing the order tonight.

New stainless cooling pipes have still not arrived. >:(
I had fixed the hole in the cooling pipe and filled the system with water, venting the system via the screw plug by the distributor. It held water.

So today I started the engine to see if it had suffered any damage from the event. It ran perfect, no strange sounds, so I let it run till it heated up. I wanted to see if the fan kicked in. It didn't  >:( >:( >:( So after a few minutes the water started boiling and spilling out of the overflow tube on the expansion tank.

Strangely, the pipe going to the radiator was warm, not scalding, but warm. the pipe coming from the radiator was ice cold. Conclusion: No, or very little, water flow. Possible problem spots: Water pump, but how could it fail? the belt is ok. Thermostat not opening, likely, but should it not have some flow anyway? Blocked pipes, also likely given the rusted state of the pipes. Anyone else have an idea or had this experience? I seem to have more than one problem with the cooling system (fan and water flow).

Regardles, this car is not driving anywhere until I get the water flowing again and the fan running. Darn, darn, darn.  :( :( :( :(

Update:
The thermostat works fine. I took it out and tested it in a pot of water on the stove. That may indicate a blockage or a defect water pump. The fan not kicking in may be because there is no hot water reaching the radiator.


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Oetker on September 19, 2009, 02:38:57 pm
You need 12 Volt between ground and + coil.
If it is 8 Volt it is to low.


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: macaroni on September 19, 2009, 03:36:05 pm
I just checked the voltages across the pins on the ignition amplifier plug.
Across pins 1 and 4, with ignition on there was about 11 volts and on cranking it went down to about 8 volts. The same as across the coil.
I guess the job of the ignition amplifier is to increase that voltage, so it looks like that could be at fault.
Thing is, it was replaced 2 weeks ago for a new one.

I might ask for the old one back, as I don't think that was at fault for the first time it wouldn't start. That was was only replaced a few thousand miles ago.

Thanks for the continued help.


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Oetker on September 19, 2009, 04:49:17 pm
Pin 1 ont ign. ampl. is not ground.
Put the black pin from youre instrument on ground.
Then measure on pin 4 ign ampl. and + bobine.
They both must be 12 Volt.
The ignition amplifier is not to boost the high tension.
It amplifies the the puls from the pick up coil to a level the coil can work with.


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: macaroni on September 19, 2009, 06:17:08 pm
That is what I did.

I also measured across the coil whilst my helper (age 10) cranked the engine and the 8v on ignition went down to about 6v. That can't be right surely?

I found an amplifier from a 205gti, which is exactly the same, and tried that. But still no joy.
I'm assuming that amplifier works, but how much bad luck can one guy have?
Still, my football team won today and are top of the table, so all is not lost.

I'm thinking it must be a wiring problem, but that is beyond my limited abilities.


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Oetker on September 19, 2009, 06:29:10 pm
Take al wires from the coil.
Put youre instrument on ohm x1.
Between + and - on the coil you have to measure lower than 1 ohm.
Put youre instument on ohm x 100 and measure between high tension output and +
What do you have there?

put youre instument on ohm x10.
Take the connector fro the module.
Measure between point 5-6 on the connector
What do you have there?


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: macaroni on September 19, 2009, 07:34:19 pm
!?*@!@$%!!
Just been out to try that, but now can't any readings off the coil, or module, ohms or volts!
I did the same way as before, but nothing happens. Either my multimeter has broken, or something else is going on.
I did notice that the clock has stopped and the indicators don't work now. All the fuses seem good though.
AARRRGHHH!!!
Thanks for your help Oetker, I will try again tomorrow when I've calmed down a bit.


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Anders Dinsen on September 19, 2009, 07:52:30 pm
!?*@!@$%!!
AARRRGHHH!!!

At least you can say your Murena keeps your blood pressure... ;) It sounds like your battery has given up completely, or it's ground connection has failed?

/Anders


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: macaroni on September 19, 2009, 08:07:17 pm
It spins the starter well enough.

When the car was in its death throes on Thursday night, I noticed that the indicators would come on, but not flash. Now they won't come on at all.
Not sure if the 2 incidents are related, but it seems strange these things happen at the same time.


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Oetker on September 19, 2009, 08:22:04 pm
Tomorow I am on a meeting and not able to react till the evening, but after youre last post I have the feeling you have the standard electric problem in the Murena.
Bad connections in the engine room, connector right side or fusebox connectors or the ground contacts that plays up.
But to stay logical I like to know the measurements I described above.


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Oetker on September 19, 2009, 08:41:34 pm
The module from the 205 GTI is from Bosch with number 0 227 100 123
I have the same working on my 2.2


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Anders Dinsen on September 19, 2009, 08:42:48 pm
It spins the starter well enough.

When the car was in its death throes on Thursday night, I noticed that the indicators would come on, but not flash. Now they won't come on at all.
Not sure if the 2 incidents are related, but it seems strange these things happen at the same time.

Oetker is right, the engine loom could be at fault, but I think I'll put my bet on the fuse board and/or one or more of the connectors around it has failed to make contact. I suggest you dismantle it, clean the contacts, check for indications of loose connections (black spots, "welded" spots) etc.

If not that, then check your ignition lock. Are the spade connectors to the wiring loom still ok? They tend to develop loose connections, and they then start melting the connector insulation and the cables. It doesn't look good when they start melting:

(http://gallery.dinsen.net/d/18420-2/DSCF0053.JPG)
(Photo from my car a few years back)

/Anders


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: macaroni on September 20, 2009, 11:10:45 am
I just checked out my fusebox and all seems well, apart from one of the wires coming adrift from the yellow connector, pin 2.
Is this important?

My ignition wires seem OK.



Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Anders Dinsen on September 20, 2009, 04:20:47 pm
P2 on the yellow connector is power to your flasher relay, radio, cigarette lighter, clock and a few other things. So it explains your clock stopping and flashers not coming on.

However, it has nothing to do with the engine.

Did you check the green connector in the engine room? Pin 5 carries ignition (thick grey wire). It's supplied via the grey connector next to the fuse box. It's pin 6 there. That should allow you to trace the ignition power feed back to the source (the key lock if necessary).

/Anders



Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: macaroni on September 20, 2009, 09:47:19 pm
Mr Dinsen, I owe you a case of Carlsberg!

By checking that pin, which was 12v, I must have cleaned the pins, because when I reconnected it, it started!
Strange, because yesterday I had sprayed contact cleaner into the connector, but I guess it needed a wiggle or two.
I will get that connector replaced as it is very dirty and could be corroded. I'll also take those readings that Oetker suggested, tomorrow.

My indicators and clock now work too, although they don't flash. I guess the relay needs replacing.

It ran really well, but I suspect I haven't solved the intermittent mis-firing yet, unless that bad green connection could cause that too?

Anyway, the hateful thing runs, thanks guys.

Antony


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Oetker on September 20, 2009, 09:55:52 pm
This readings are no longer needed, because the engine is running.
I think that the connectors at the fusebox are also the cause of misfiring.
My car has all wires on fusebox that are on the steerside permantly connected with solder.
Last ownwer before me did that, because of same sort of problems you have..


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: macaroni on October 03, 2009, 09:47:34 am
Well after 2 weeks of hard, but trouble-free, motorway commuting I think I can say the car is fixed. So, thanks very much for all your advice and help.

All the work I did has paid dividends as the car goes better than ever and is now happy to cruise, quietly and fairly economically, at pretty big speeds.

My flashers how flash and I've got some bits to tighten up the gearchange too.

Hope you don't hear from me for a while!

Cheers,

Antony


Title: Re: Car broke down, here we go again...
Post by: Anders Dinsen on October 03, 2009, 01:51:42 pm
Great news!

Hope you don't hear from me for a while!

:-X  ;D