MatraSport Forum

Each model => Espace => Topic started by: Trolkar on September 14, 2009, 10:21:29 pm



Title: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: Trolkar on September 14, 2009, 10:21:29 pm
Hi there! – I’m kind a confused about my newly family member. – A Grand Espace from 1999 with 225.000 km’s on its tail. It’s a “Grand”, and also grand engine. 3.0 V6-24v with a ZF 4-speed automatic gearbox.

I’m having seriously leak of oils, but that’s not the question right now. – This question is about the gearbox.

When the car is “hot”, e.g. after running quite fresh for about 10-20 km, there is a “noise” when shifting from 3 to 4 and backwards. The noise is sounded for about 1˝ sec, but can be forced for at longer while if you run up hill in 3, and “pressing the limits” of the engine. (60-70% of pressure on the throttle)

In my ears, it could be the “sound of a synchromesh being forced / hold into position” or simply the convertor “slipping”. – But when the change is complete, the sounds stop. – On less you push the vehicle up hill.

Can anyone, just from the my simply writing guide me in the right direction?
I my opinion, there is only one way. – A new gearbox with a new converter.
Therefore, I found this firm in Germany. – They have gearbox which should be the right one for me.

http://cgi.ebay.de/AUTOMATIKGETRIEBE-RENAULT-ESPACE-3-0-V6-24V-LMO-001_W0QQitemZ310167344987QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAutoteile_Zubeh%C3%B6r?hash=item48376a175b&_trksid=p4634.c0.m14.l1262

But – Has anyone experience with that firm? – Any comments would be appriciatet!

Btw, I talk to a engineer at ZF headquarter in Denmark, and after just 3 minutes of driving he just said, that box was gone to hell. – And, which I’m surprised to hear, the “brand” of oil used in the ZF 4HP 20 is not that specific, as I’ve learn by reading this forum. – “You can used whatever you what, just don’t run out of oil”. – I also talked with 2 other companies in DK, which repair automatic gearboxes, and they don’t use ESSO oil. Some use Castrol and another use Q8.

Therefore, after reading the post about changing oil in the gearbox, I am confused. If the car is handled over to an “expert” for an oil change, do they really use ESSO, or just “what is nearest” ? – If the ZF HP 20 is so “keen on Esso”, why do other companies just “top up” with another brand?

Thx in advance!

Troels


Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: renaultbiler on September 15, 2009, 06:16:36 am
Based on my own experience and research - use only the ESSO oil - thats also what my box was filled with when it arrived from a complete rebuild at ZF's facility in Sweden - and they use mainly Castrol at ZF as i understood, but this box is an exeption.
Give just ONE (!) good reason for NOT using the specified oil ? ..... There is no good reason !
Trust me, once you have spent this kind of money to rebuild such a delicat instrument give it the prescribed oil, it is prescribed for a reason.

Now to the gearbox - if you have the stick shift on the floor you probably have LM0 005 gearbox - if you have gearstick behind the steering wheel you probably have LM0 001



Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: Trolkar on September 15, 2009, 08:52:34 am
Hi Tom!

I can only give you one good reason. If I buy a rebuild gearbox from ZF in danmark, it cost about 22.000 + vat. = 27.500 dkr (3.666 Eur). – And it is supplied with Castrol Oil!
ZF said, that if the new gearbox was failing, and they discovered that there has been an oil change (and not using Castrol), the warranty would void. – But perhaps the Castrol oils is perfect for 1 year while there is a warranty, and after that it is just not good enough?
Does someone know where to buy Esso oil in Denmark?


Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: renaultbiler on September 15, 2009, 11:30:34 am
I can only give you one good reason. If I buy a rebuild gearbox from ZF in danmark, it cost about 22.000 + vat. = 27.500 dkr (3.666 Eur). – And it is supplied with Castrol Oil!


I presume it will in that case be sent off to Sweden for a rebuild and bench test like mine was, and it came back with 2-3 litres of the distinctive color and smell of the ESSO oil (i drained what was in it and refilled again with new oil).
I suspect your contact person is not completely aware of this, i also checked with ZF representative here in Norway before ordering oil exchange on my car (just before it broke down) and also they claimed ZF was using Castrol in all their boxes when returning from repair.

As you can see in the attached documents from ZF - it is crystal clear regarding the transmition oil on the 4HP20 box.

You must note, that when ZF returns the box it is not filled with the correct amount of oil - this must be done after mounted back in the car.

But - as always - it is up to you what oil you choose in the end, but my strong advise is to stick with the ESSO oil, also sold by Renault as "LM0" oil in 2 litre containers.

As another example, i bought a Scenic 2.0 16v with the DP0 automatic transmition recently. It was sold cheap partially because of weird behaviour from the gearbox. It was filled with non prescribed oil (red).
I drained it and flushed it 3 times with prescribed ELF Renaultmatic D3 oil (orange in color) and reset its oil agening counter and adaptives - now it is working perfectly !

So oil is not oil, use what the manufacturer says on these things.

The 24v is a wonderful car, and has a wonderful gearbox when it is working correctly - so think twice before gambling with any oil not prescribed for it.

--

I see that the box supplied from GSB is a 001 box, that is why you need to check what box is in your car - it can be read off the metal plate on top of the gearbox.

My advise is to let ZF fix YOUR box. Then you know the mileage on the box as you will get back your own.



Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: Trolkar on September 15, 2009, 02:35:50 pm
Strange, just talked to ZF again. - This time with Jan Nielsen, ZF Denmark. – And let me say, this man knows his stuff! – (Or he is just a superfast “googler”)

According to Jan, the ZF 4 HP 20 is a strange gearbox. – It is used in many other vehicles, but the recommended oil is very different, according to which car it is installed in.

In a Renault Grand Espace, the only accepted oil is  -  Esso LT 71141 and 1 other Brand (The original Renault LMO oil)

And the problem with my gearbox? – The planet wheels is so worn out, that they are “rubbing / grating” on the axle. It can mayby last 5 km, or even 5000 km.
Damm…
 
And ZF Denmark don’t rebuild gearbox’s, they get them from Germany. – And yes, ZF Sweden rebuild 4 HP 20, but in Denmark, it is “cheaper” for ZF to have one from Germany. ZF Sweden is the only ZF aftermarket place in Scandinavia with test bench…

I would very much like a factory rebuild gearbox from ZF, but the price? 28.000 dkr, or 3.750,00 Eur… The gearbox from GSB is 1499, but to make up for the 12 months warranty from ZF, the price from GSB is (2199 + 329 for the converter and 269 for transport = 2797. A difference of 950 euro, or 7.100 dkr.


Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: renaultbiler on September 15, 2009, 03:59:30 pm
In a Renault Grand Espace, the only accepted oil is  -  Esso LT 71141 and 1 other Brand (The original Renault LMO oil)


The Renault LM0 oil IS the ESSO oil in a Renault bottle - same color and very distinctive smell, i have a 2 litre standing.


Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: Anders Dinsen on September 15, 2009, 06:56:49 pm
Hi Troels,

I would very much like a factory rebuild gearbox from ZF, but the price? 28.000 dkr, or 3.750,00 Eur… The gearbox from GSB is 1499, but to make up for the 12 months warranty from ZF, the price from GSB is (2199 + 329 for the converter and 269 for transport = 2797. A difference of 950 euro, or 7.100 dkr.

I asked for a price for this some months ago, and as far as I recall the ZF rebuilt gearbox was less that 20.000 DKK. So I'm a bit surprised about this price. I don't have the exact amount I was quoted, but I remember it was only a bit more than ZF Sweden wanted (including shipment).

Anyway, it turned out my gearbox was all right and it was just water in an electrical connector that had caused it to mess up ;)

But with those prices, I would probably go for GSB to save the money. If you are adventurous, you can drive the car towards Berlin as far as it will take you and itself - if it breaks down completely, you can have it towed to the destination. Alternatively, I think GSB can arrange towing from Denmark.

ZF Sweden is another good option.

We have talked about your car and the problems you have had elsewhere. What kind of help is the seller of the car offering to you now?

Best wishes,
Anders


Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: renaultbiler on September 15, 2009, 08:22:30 pm
Isnt it a relatively short distance to Gřteborg from almost everywhere in Denmark ? :D

Check what ZF in Sweden wants for the job, then bring it there - when i could get this done for approx 20.ooo NOK in the expencive country called Norway im sure sweden wont be any more expencive - AND don't forget the exchange rate, if it costs 20.000 SEK you would get away with roughly 15000 DKK !!!!

And once it is fixed you will never regret it and soon forget this headache, as it is a superb car !


Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: Trolkar on September 15, 2009, 08:55:39 pm

We have talked about your car and the problems you have had elsewhere. What kind of help is the seller of the car offering to you now?

Best wishes,
Anders

Hi Anders!

I must say, I really don’t know yet.

Yesterday, I drove a short trip with the garage, and it was the first time he actually heard the sound / noise I was complying about.

Today the vehicle hit the lift, and he was hoping to find the problem today, but another thing came in his way. – Hopefully tomorrow the reason of my big oil leak can be found. – Tomorrow will also be the day, where he gets some e-mail about exchange of the gearbox from a various of companies. Then will see what to do.


Troels


Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: Trolkar on September 15, 2009, 09:14:34 pm
The price at ZF is dkr. 22.400 ex. Vat. = 28.000 dkr. – But, if you have CVR number, you will save 10-15% - And the price is therefore around 23.800. dkr.

I have used a huge time on the Internet today, and it seems like GSB are offering a discount furthermore. – I’m waiting I pain to hear what prices my garage are getting.

The car has been in the family since the 14. June, but it has not been able to drive for more than 48 days. Mainly because of the suddenly huge oil leak.

I am still waiting to enjoy the faith and trustworthy experience with the car...


Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: Trolkar on September 16, 2009, 10:11:37 pm
Got a call from my garage this evening. – Unfortunately, the phone ran out of power. But I did manage to hear, that my big oil leak was again the crankshaft gasket, but the oil was being “lifted” up by the timing belt to the top of the engine. – That’s good news for me, since the warranty pays for that.
So, new gasket and new timing belt (again).

But the engine should be up and running by the end of the week!

Tomorrow, I hope to hear about the gearbox…


Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: renaultbiler on September 20, 2009, 10:32:41 am
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Automatik-Getriebe-Renault-Espace-3-0_W0QQitemZ280399042867


Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: Trolkar on September 20, 2009, 08:44:05 pm
Cheap! - Have to give them a call! - THX!!!


Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: Anders Dinsen on September 21, 2009, 09:57:15 pm
I notice the gearbox is gone now. Did you buy it? :)


Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: Trolkar on September 21, 2009, 10:30:42 pm
Erh?? - Don't know! - Have to call my mechanic!
I send him the link, but havent talked with him... - Maybe? - Maybe not?!?!



Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: Anders Dinsen on September 21, 2009, 10:48:02 pm
Erh?? - Don't know! - Have to call my mechanic!
I send him the link, but havent talked with him... - Maybe? - Maybe not?!?!

He's probably on his way to Berlin ;)

It was quite a good offer, that gearbox.


Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: Trolkar on September 25, 2009, 11:37:48 am
I notice the gearbox is gone now. Did you buy it? :)

Nope, but the car is going to Berlin for an overhauling in next month!


Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: renaultbiler on October 14, 2009, 07:27:18 pm
Any news yet ??


Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: Trolkar on April 09, 2010, 12:43:23 am
Well, since no one really has experience with GSB (Getriebeservice Berlin) I’ll be answering myself – Sit back. It’s going to be a long story!

After some negotiations with my dealer, he agreed to pay for a gearbox overhaul and for the replacement, but I should drive the car to Berlin for the  replacement.

But since the car has been driving almost 225.000 km, I wanted a new converter installed while the gearbox was been replaced. So my cost was the trip, the hotels and a new convertor. But remember! – If you have a company related to “auto und autofahrad” it is possibly to buy the parts as “Nettoverkauf”.
That means, that the total “only” was:

Gearbox, incl. 1 year warranty   1595,00 EUR
Convertor    290,00 EUR
Replacement 375,00 EUR
A total of   2260 EUR equals to around 17.000 Dkr.

The trip to  Berlin was “okay” – I took the advantage to invite my mother to join me on the trip. – German is NOT my best, but my mother is a former teacher in German at the University. – But since grandma and daddy was going on a trip, my 4 years old daughter insisted on joining us. “Disney on DVD”, what  a great invention 
The car did managed to go all the way to Berlin, but the last 10 km, it was not possibly to hear anything in the car. The gearbox was almost “screaming in pain” – Parked at the hotel was a relief!

The next morning, we took the car 4 km to GSB. And when I first saw the place I almost cried. You wouldn’t believe a mess! Rusty cars all over the place, no lights, “greasy” people. No one, and I really mean no one would ever hand over their car to that firm… - If you are from Denmark.
But my mom told me, that the firm was located in the former “East Berlin”, and when looking at the other companies around it, perhaps it was just normal.

At 8 o clock, the firm was opening – But it was not until 9.20 there was some people we could talk to. – No one really knew that we was coming, but there was a shiny ZF gearbox with my name on it in the waiting room. – There was gearboxes ALL over the place!

No one really talked to us, and after I have talked to the foreman at 9.20 my mother started to talk German with them, and that really help! – Now they would also talk to us! – We where even invited to see the “garage” – And at that point I was really starting to get worried. The place was a big mess!! - But at the end of our walk thru the garage, I could see my Espace being lifted up in the air. (And there was small “blocks” under the lifting point. My mother told me later, that there was a man that was controlling the car for damage – They knew, that the car was made of “plastic”)

At the end of our trip, my Espace was being in god hands. – I knew that because on the other lifts there was 3 WV Sharan from ADAC, 1 Ferrari, 2 Porsche, 1 Audi A8 and 2 Mercedes. – Okay, if they can handle those cars, they could handle my Espace as well.

After the car was lifted up, they started to cool down the engine and gearbox with a fan.
The car would be done the following next afternoon…

Well, the rest of the day and the day after was mainly pleasure for my daughter, the zoo, Legoland and so one…

At the pickup time, the car was not yet finish. – It was driving on a “test field”, simulating engine braking, high mountains and many start / stops. – After that, the owner (we think) took the car for a test drive himself. When the test drive was finish we started on our way back home. – But I was told, that the gearbox was not ready for race. Please drive slowly the first 100 km. – Well, okay :-)

After driving out of Berlin in rush hour we finally hit the freeway. – But only at 100 km/t. – A stop for petrol was needed, since the firm has been used almost Ľ of a tank (!).

AND THEN – DISSASTER! – When slowly decelerating towards the exit a big “klonk” was head when the gearbox changed from 3 to 2 gear. – Everybody was completely silence in the car… But well. – It may be needed some “time on the road”. After refueling, it was time to hit the freeway… The car was very very slowly, and would not take the gas. – Because it was driving in 3. – And the “Error code” for gearbox error appears on the dashboard.

A call to GSB, and we was driving BACK to Berlin. – But this time, in rush hour and only with 3 gear. – That’s NOT funny in traffic jam, and going uphill.

When we arrived, there was 5 persons waiting for us. – They were all very sorry, and started to check the car right away. – After around 4-6 min. the car was going for a test drive… But it returned with “no head shaking mechanic”. – They kept on testing and test driving for almost 2 hours. We arrived back at about 20.30, and at 22.30 they gave up. – They needed to dissemble the gearbox, but it was too hot.

They must have seen my freaky eyes… Where to find a hotel a 23.00 in Berlin!?! – But there was no worry. They already has made arrangement at a hotel, and the owner (again we think) was driving us to the hotel, but only to  find out that is has closed the doors at 23.00. – At 24.00, the 3. Hotel was a success. The firm paid for our stay..

The next morning, they called and said that the car was finish, and they would come and get us. – But after waiting for about 7 hours, and have seen the Espace running in and out for several times there was bad news. – Still errors with the gearbox. – An another night in Berlin paid by GSB. – They was really furious about the car, but took very good care of us. They even had one of the wife’s to drop by with spaghetti for my daughter! – By the way, the dismantle and replace of the gearbox only takes 35 minutes (If you are 3 persons  - It was on an off MANY times that day!  )

At 14.00 the next day the car was going for a new road test, and it was first back a 15.15. Over 1 hour!
But the car was finish! – It seems, that there  was a small leak in a o-ring – Deep inside the gearbox… Causing the gearbox to lose pressure under high torque.
T
he gearbox was given another overhaul, and some parts was replaced with a slightly “stronger than normal – But not that strong!” as they said. Some gearboxes have weak parts, but the ZF 20 HP 4 is not a really strong gearbox, nor either a weak gearbox, but the used parts is in a “good strong/weak balance“, and therefore the gearbox is generally strong. – But it is not a Mercedes they said.

The main problem with the ZF 20 HP is heat, heat heat and slowly driving in the city. And of cause, towing is absolutely the sudden death because of the big  heat problem.

After driving for about 15.000 km with my new gearbox I am still very pleased.
It is not changing in the same way before the overhaul. It is really “fast to shift up” – When driving slow, 4. Gear is engaged almost at 52-55 km/t. – Before that only happens when driving well over 70 km/t. – The gearbox “is forcing” the engine to use more torque, instead of using high revs. – The shifts is very “smooth”, especially when warm.

 – However, there are still some issue that’s are annoying me. When driving in heavy traffic, the gearbox tends to be in either 1 or 2 gear for a longer period – Which is resulting in “high” revs. It also sometimes making a weird “downshift” at round-about”. – But it can sometimes still making a “klonk” sound when shifting down. – Don’t know if that’s normal, hoping to “test-drive” another Espace for a comparison.

All in all… A good experience with GSB, but only because we’re was on the site, and able to speak German. – Can’t imagine if the box was to be sent back  and forth…



Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 09, 2010, 06:20:19 am
Thanks for the excellent and detailed description of your experience with GSB. Germans are generally very helpful people, but do tend to be shy if you don't speak the language. It sounds like people you can depend on, despite your first impressions.

Too bad about the o-ring that failed on the trip home, but nice that they helped you out so well when it failed.

Comparing your description of your car with the way ours go, I'd say it's doing perfect now. No reason to worry. The box will stay in low gear long if you accelerate fast, especially if you hit the kick-down switch under the accelerator - that will force it into "fast mode" with lower gears and faster downshifts for at least some 30 seconds or so.

In Renaults version of the box, it's also programmed to downshift while breaking. It's a little annoying, and I don't know why they prefer it that way. Maybe as an autoamtic engine braking mode when mountain driving, but that's all I've been able to think of.

/Anders


Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: renaultbiler on April 09, 2010, 08:26:09 am
Thanks for your story :)

Refering to your recent misfire tread, the smallest misfire can easily affect the gearbox behaviour and the time for shifting of gears. On our Scenic it is a repeated problem with water getting under the coil on cylinder 4 (probably due to lack of engine cover) and even before i start to notice any misfire i can feel it coming on the gearbox. Drying up around the spark plug the gearbox is working smooth again, if i leave it the engine will eventually start to misfire heavily and the gearbox is behaving nuts.


Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: jack daniels on April 09, 2010, 07:55:57 pm

does the trans on the V6 espace have a water/oil heat exchanger or air cooling only?





Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: Trolkar on April 09, 2010, 08:26:06 pm

does the trans on the V6 espace have a water/oil heat exchanger or air cooling only?


Yes. The oil is "mixed" with the "coolant water".
That helps the oli to warm up faster, and keeps the oil "cold".

When the gearbox is fitted in a Mercedes Sprinter (Cargo/Van) the exchanger it is about 9 times bigger.

I'm thinking of installing an external cooler... - When driving around a "safaripark" (Givskud Lřvepark) in the summer for about 1 hour, the oil is getting so warm, that heavy "smoke" can bee seen when trying to check the oillevel.

(The airintake has to be removed to be able to check the oillevel from top of the car)


Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 10, 2010, 12:16:44 am
When the gearbox is fitted in a Mercedes Sprinter (Cargo/Van) the exchanger it is about 9 times bigger.

Is it really... I didn't know that. Might explain why it has a reputation for excellent reliability in the Merc.

/Anders


Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: jack daniels on April 12, 2010, 08:57:38 pm
interesting limks regarding the 4HP20:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/24266779/Autobox-Zf4-Hp20-Training
http://www.meurosport.com/ZF_Transmission_Fluid.php

I have a question for renaultbiler:
after you drained and flushed the transmission in the megane 3 times, did you happen to give it a road test prior to reseting the oil wear/age counter?     

was there any noticeable difference in shifting after reseting the counter?     







Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: renaultbiler on April 13, 2010, 02:14:58 pm
I reset if after the last refill, inbetween drain and refills i drove it with old index but it was only about 60*c temperature in it so i would not be able to determine anything regarding this on these short trips for a few 100 meters.

Renault document says to reset index even after only draining sump and refilling. You can also write your own index, say the current index is 66000 you can write 50% = 33000 as i would expect this to set back the electronics to 50% of current oil mileage. I doubt it makes any big difference though.


Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: jack daniels on April 13, 2010, 04:21:40 pm
does the index value autually affect the gear shifting, or the engagement / disengegement of the clutches?

or is the index purely just to remind us when the oil is ready for changing.
I recall from somewhere that number of minutes with an oil temp over 115 deg will be logged.


Title: Re: Any experience with GSB Berlin? - Automatic Gearbox for my Grand Espace V6
Post by: renaultbiler on April 13, 2010, 05:40:00 pm
The oil index does not engage with any warning visually or by diagnostics as far as i know, from what i understands it affects the electronic control of the gearbox by the means that the computer taking the oil age into consideration when commanding the gearbox.