MatraSport Forum

Dear fellow murena dudes, LETS GATHER WEIGHT INFO...  ;D ;D ;D
I will collect all weighings in the top of this topic, as the thread expands.
If interested, please write "name: kg". Any lighter versions can be written afterwards.

Hereby, we can all get an overview of what could be weight reduced, by replacing with/manufacturing lighter parts, if anyone's interested.
(personally, I request the weight of the trunk (bare box), if anybody has had the chance to weigh this.  :o)

***PLEASE KEEP THE POSTS SHORT and SERIOUS  - ONLY PARTS AND FIGURES PLEASE 8)***

Parts weight list

• 1.6 (whole car) 951kg - stated by Titus
• 1.6 (whole car) 1060kg - stated by Oskar
• Front Liner Tray: 3kg
• Roof Panel: 5kg
• Rear Tail Glass: 16kg  (A001)
• Rear Quarterlight Glass: 1kg  (A002)
• 2.2 rear trailing arm 10.5kg complete right side
• 2.2 short axle (drive shaft) 7.0kg
• 2.2 long axle (drive shaft) 9.7kg
• Engine cover 5.2kg
• Wheel bearing 800g
• Wheel hub 1.7kg
• 2.2 Rear trailing arm 8kg
• Rear brake caliper assembly (no pads) 3.5kg  (A003)
• Fuel tank with sender unit 5.2kg  (A004)
• Gearstick plastic console 88g  (A005)
• Heater Matrix and Control Box 3.8kg  (A006)
• Ventilation Fan 1.9kg  (A007)
• Under body guard 1150g  (A008)
• 2.2 Engine (no gearbox, intake, exhaust manifolds). (Politechnic Cam Cover fitted) 151kg
• 2.2 Murena Gearbox 48kg
• Metal radiator guard 488g  (A009)
• Metal radiator guard brackets 83g  (A010)
• trunk 15.5kg
• stripped door panel with speaker hole 2kg
• Xu9J4 (mi16) Engine (dry, with flywheel, alternator & starter) 132.7kg
• Panel under heater motor 245g  (A011)
• Original drivers seat 13kg  (A012)
• ..

Alternatives list

• ((A001) Replacing the glass rear window with fiberglass hood (stated by some, weighing 70% of the glass).
• (A002) Lexan Polycarbonate Rear Louvered Quarterlight: 0.25kg (http://www.plastics4performance.com (http://www.plastics4performance.com))
• (A003) Willwood Powerlite / Handbrake Caliper Part. No. 120-9463HB Weight 2kg
• (A004) Make fueltank half the size. Aluminum fuel tank (http://www.brise.co.uk/fabrications.html (http://www.brise.co.uk/fabrications.html))
• (A005) Gearstick carbon console 52g
• (A006) Suggested Alternative for heater matrix and control box: http://www.cbsonline.co.uk/43kw-car-heater-heat2-4489-p.asp (http://www.cbsonline.co.uk/43kw-car-heater-heat2-4489-p.asp)
• (A007) Suggested Alternative for Ventilation Fan: http://www.cbsonline.co.uk/axial-fan--axfan-1095-p.asp (http://www.cbsonline.co.uk/axial-fan--axfan-1095-p.asp)
• (A008) carbon under body guard 652g
• (A009) carbon radiator guard 139g
• (A010) carbon radiator guard brackets 6g
• (A011) Carbon panel under heater motor 52g
• (A012) Carbon/kevlar seat 4kg: http://www.recaro.com/index.php?id=3631&region=3&L=2 (http://www.recaro.com/index.php?id=3631&region=3&L=2)
• ..

Suggestions for reducing weight

• Removing the interior, e.g. door cards and engine bay cover.
• Devil exhaust 15kg
• Pull out old seats (3), and replace with 2 lighteight racing seats.
• Vacume out, and replace it with a simple UP28 Brakepump in the front.
• Remove headlight system, use modified foglights instead.
• Standard carpet is heavy replace with lighter synthetic.
• Lexan windows, except for windscreen. (safety)
• Get of the airfilter an replace it with a pancake type.
• Put on 1 light sportmirror on the left and put the shitty Vitaloni's in the bin, or better, sel them on ebay.
• A Titanium Exhaust would reduce weight on ones car (and wallet) and reduces the Polar Moment of Inertia.
• Magnesium Alloy wheels would also reduce weight on ones car (and wallet) and reduce the Unsprung Weight.
• Smaller battery
• DIY Carbon fabrication link: http://carbonmods.co.uk/ (http://carbonmods.co.uk/)
• Smaller battery

Notes
Weight distribution
focus on the rear of the car to start with (weight distribution 40/60)

Polar Moment of Inertia:
This term refers to how difficult it is to get an object to rotate on an axis. The farther away from the axis of rotation the mass is, the harder it is to make it turn. Conversely, if the mass is concentrated near the centre, it is easier to make it turn. Mid engine cars usually have a low polar moment of inertia which makes it easier to make them rotate, and therefore easier for them to turn. However, mid engine cars will react more quickly to changes in tire angle (they turn faster) but this also means that they are inherently easier to spin as well.

Sprung vs. Unsprung Weight:
Sprung weight is any part of the car that is supported by the suspension, and only moves when the suspension is active. That means that unsprung weight is any part that is directly connected to the road without cushioning from the spring, i.e. wheels, brakes, suspension arms.

Removing unsprung mass is a more effective than reducing sprung mass as it does have handling benefits. The lighter the wheel and other unsprung components, the easier it is for the tire to follow bumps in the road. On a vehicle with extremely high unsprung weight, the inertia of the wheel and associated assembly can't move fast enough to follow the road, resulting in a jarring, crashing ride.

Lowering the unsprung weight and rotating weight yields multiple dividends, with better acceleration, better braking, better ride, better fuel economy, and better handling. Money spent to reduce unsprung weight may be great, but it's a much better payoff than with sprung weight.



Best regards,
NJesper

(updated until Reply #92)

That conrod you're showing in your avatar seems to have been lightened quite well ;D

As a starting point for a standard 1.6 Murena my car weighs a total of 951kg including the spare steel wheel and with 4 Murena alloys. It has no sun roof, no spoiler, no centre consol and no passenger foot rest. I deducted the weight of the remaining fuel in the tank for this figure.

That is about 50kg lighter than Matra stated the weight when new. As I doubt much has fallen off since 1983 that I wouldn't have missed by now then I guess they were incorrect with the 1000kg brochure listings.

1.6 Murena: 951kg.

Maybe the steel wheels are heavier ;)  I'm intrigued as to how and why you obtained such a precise weight for your car.

that sounds tru. mine is stated as 1060kg  fully fueled, a 75kg driver and al fluids in the car.
max load is 200kg with 2 passengers (slim hot womans)  ;D

Letting the wife out on the curb lightened it by about 65 kg. :D :D :D

quote
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Letting the wife out on the curb lightened it by about 65 kg.
======================================

Good idea, in my case it would be 100 kg.
Next ride she has to take the train ;D

Hi Jesper.

What are you trying to achieve with this list? Are you trying to turn your Murena into a race car?

If you seriously want to lighten the car the best way is to replace all the fiberglass parts with corresponding parts made of carbon fiber. My guess is that it could lighten the car by more than 100 kg. Also consider stripping the paint. It would amount to appx. 4kg top-coat, 5-6 kg paint and 3-4 kg clear coat.

I would think very carefully before you remove the trunk, if that's your plan.  It probably contributes a lot towards the structural rigidity of the car.  Replace all the glass with Perspex.  That would save a lot of weight, though don't go for the Ferrari back.  It weighs more than the glass hatch.

quote
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though don't go for the Ferrari back.  It weighs more than the glass hatch.
================================================

Not thrue, it is much lighter.
My hood opens on 1 gasdamper 220  Nm, and I need 2 0f 220 Nm for the glass.
If have the Kiefer Ferrarie hood.
It weight aprox 70% of the glass (roughly)
(http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/934/img4010smallfj3.jpg)

There is so much weight to be stripped by just removing the interior, e.g. door cards and engine bay cover. These all weigh a tonne, the problem is that without them everything looks too stripped out, but if that’s your look then great, I’ve got various bits off my car and if you need weights, I could weigh some of them for you..

Front Liner Tray: 3kg

Roof Panel: 5kg

Rear Tail Glass: 16kg

Rear Quarterlight Glass: 1kg

(Plastics4Performance Lexan Polycarbonate Rear Louvered Quarterlight: 0.25kg / See image)

Some other parts available for weighing as requested.

In my experience If weight reduction is required for performance and handling, focus on the rear of the car to start with.

@ GP.

That is a nice rear window on the picture.
Is this after market or own produktion?

Peter,
I was interested to find out the exact weight distribution of the car so was needing a true weight figure. However, I wasn't able to find anywhere at the time to weigh the car at each corner. I ended up taking the car to a local breakers yard and driving it onto their weighing platform. They gave me a figure of 958kg. I then went and filled up with fuel, deducting the amount from the knowen 52 litre capacity of the tank. This told me I had 8.74 litres in the tank at the time of weighing. Assuming my calculation as to the weight of fuel was correct and the 958kg was also true, I can say that the car weighs 951kg.

Sorry Jesper :)

When I've taken my car for the MoT I've stated the brake test weight as 1000kg as advised by Roy.  The brake performance was so good that I was accused by the tester of understating the weight.

Hi,


Aftermarket: http://www.plastics4performance.com/

Made from the mold of their Porche 911 1/4 light. Not cheap but exactly what I wanted.

I have a homemade polycarbonate rear screen fitted at present (with a support bracket in the middle) which is looking pretty shabby now. Weight 8kg.

Future discussed plan is to deliver an original glass rear screen to them and they will thermal form a  copy, with the same curvature and OEM black edging.

Cheers,

Graham

Well Jon, personally my needs and wants are not essential for this thread.  ;)

Weight reduction has always been an easy source of gaining power, and having an old sportscar, that by, some people is regarded as lacking power (well I think that even Matra mentioned it themselves one time), this thread could end up creating a good overview for enthusiasts, wanting to reduce weight, to gain power, without getting in serious trouble with for instance, legislation.

Whether or not you wanna have a stripped down sportscar, or you wanna loose some pounds, by for instance replacing with lighter parts, that could still make the car look great/original, I found this idea a good one. Loosing weight, does not necessarily mean "race car".  ;D

****************
Danish legislation ::) for example, has some very tight rules, for people wanting to up the bhp of their cars.

Rule of thumb: 20% increase is allowed, but can still create problems, every time going to the mot, you still need papers on the upgrades from the manufacturers, especially if the parts mean changing "the construction" of the driving abilities of the car.  ::)

Between 20% and 40%, means going to an approved by the government test laboratory (costly), for getting tests and papers done.  :-\

And beyond 40% effect increase, FORGET ABOUT IT!  ;D(if you wanna do it the legal way).
Because then you have to take the 2000km test, meaning the car is driven for 2000km (at a test track i guess, making the risk of having a 25 year old car breaking down at least 10 times during that), then disassembled totally, and each part analyzed for fatique.  :o :o :o Ehhhh... how do you do that with an old sportscar with already worn parts??? you don't I guess... not to mention costs, of both the tests, analysis, documenation, and all the delays, re-testing for everytime your car throws a leak etc.  :P you do the math..  8)
This test, I guess, is only for the car manufacturers, kleeman tuner companies etc, or veeery wealthy people, who are very bored, combined with a seriously scary patience.  ;D ;D ;D

thereby, this thread re-explained - now in details :D

Few things that come up.
Kick all seats out, and put 2 ultra light sport seats in.
Kick the spare wheel and replace it with a can tyrerepair stuff.
Kick all vacume out, and replace it with a simple UP28 Brakepump in the front.
Get out all stuff related to the headlight, and use the foglights to make it work.
The standard carpet is heavy, kick it out and replce it with a lighter synthetic.
Make fueltank half the size.
Put on the ferrarie hood and all windows plastic except the windscreen (safety).
Leave the plate that covers the engine at home.
Get of the airfilter an replace it with a pancake type.
Put on 1 light sportmirror on the left and put the shitty Vitaloni's in the bin, or better, sel them on ebay.
And so on

When i am at home, I  put some things on the scale.

I totally agree on the trunk part. Just curoius to know what that tub actually weighs. Maybe one could make a lighter version.
Just thoughts.  ;)

I have that glassfiber back also, I think I wil weigh it sometime in the future. Until then if anybody else, have the figures, it would be nice to know the difference.

Best,

Jesper

I would love to know the weight of the following Parts:

1. Trunk (the actual tub) (as I wrote earlier)
2. 2.2 rear trailing arm
3. 2.2 left/right drive shaft
4. rear glass window

Best regards,

Jesper  ;D

2.2 rear trailing arm 10,5 kg compleet right side
2.2 short axle 7,0 kg
2.2 long axle 9.7 kg
Engine cover 5,2kg

(http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/1227/p1010736n.jpg)

Oetker: What is the weight of your exhaust system on display?

A Titanium Exhaust would reduce weight on ones car (and wallet) and reduces the Polar Moment of Inertia.

Polar Moment of Inertia:

This term refers to how difficult it is to get an object to rotate on an axis. The farther away from the axis of rotation the mass is, the harder it is to make it turn. Conversely, if the mass is concentrated near the centre, it is easier to make it turn. Mid engine cars usually have a low polar moment of inertia which makes it easier to make them rotate, and therefore easier for them to turn. However, mid engine cars will react more quickly to changes in tire angle (they turn faster) but this also means that they are inherently easier to spin as well.

Magnesium Alloy wheels would also reduce weight on ones car (and wallet) and reduce the Unsprung Weight.

Sprung vs. Unsprung Weight:

Sprung weight is any part of the car that is supported by the suspension, and only moves when the suspension is active. That means that unsprung weight is any part that is directly connected to the road without cushioning from the spring, i.e. wheels, brakes, suspension arms.

Removing unsprung mass is a more effective than reducing sprung mass as it does have handling benefits. The lighter the wheel and other unsprung components, the easier it is for the tire to follow bumps in the road. On a vehicle with extremely high unsprung weight, the inertia of the wheel and associated assembly can't move fast enough to follow the road, resulting in a jarring, crashing ride.

Lowering the unsprung weight and rotating weight yields multiple dividends, with better acceleration, better braking, better ride, better fuel economy, and better handling. Money spent to reduce unsprung weight may be great, but it's a much better payoff than with sprung weight.

Alles klar? :)

Cheers,

G.P.

Ehh... titanium exhaust reduces polar moment of inertia?? An exhaust is not turning is it? or am I just not the sharpest knife in the drawer?  ;D ;D ;D

Apart from that.... I really think this thread is ROOOLLING! thanx all, keep it coming  8) 8) 8)

Best,

Jesper

What do you mean by "compleet"? is that including the wheel hub+bearing?

Please weigh as many parts seperately if possible, or write what the weighing includes
Anyhow, SUPER COOL... keep it coming.. ;)

Just trying to sort out, before adding to the list  ;D

Thanx

Best regards,
Jesper

Devil exhaust 15 kg
Wheel bearing 800 gram
(http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/2254/p1010741.jpg)
wheel hub 1,7 kg
Just reduce the wait of the right trailing arm with this 2 figures.
(http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/8554/p1010738.jpg)
cat 7,2 kg
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(http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/7265/kat1n.jpg)
(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/6889/kat2b.jpg)

Sorry, couldn't resist. ;D
 

Thumbs up Oetker!  ;D ;D ;D

I understand you got tempted.... cat... hehe.... Well, our cars are non-cat I gues  ::)
Though its a cute cat.  :D

Thanx for the weighing

Rear Brake Caliper Assembly (No Pads) 3.5 kg.If someone could weigh the front Brake Caliper Assembly it would be appreciated.

Fuel tank with sender unit 5.2kg. (Suggested alternative, a smaller aluminium tank)

This Aluminium Fuel Tank was fabricated by a local firm in the U.K. to me called Brise:     http://www.brise.co.uk/fabrications.html

The fuel tank was fabricated using the drivers side, larger and deeper portion of an original plastic fuel tank as a pattern. Total width = 42cm. So it does not extend behind the engine at all, with a completely clear area in front and below the engine for the carburettors and a very large clear air flow from underneath. This tank gives me a 25 litre fuel capacity. Ideal for sprinting and hillclimbing competition.

See images for further details.

For installation it uses the original drivers side retaining strap, the original fuel level gauge assembly (with some bending and adjustments of the float arm) and all the original fuel filling hoses. An extra support bracket was attached to the new aluminium flange at the top for the fuel sender unit and bolted to the bulkhead ahead of it with some flexible bushes. I also have a roll over vent valve plumbed in (seen on the inner wheel arch at the top) as the tiny plastic vent valve at the filling point area could not cope with the fuel consumption and the tank would have imploded otherwise.

The weight of this tank is unknown to me, but very light. The original plastic tank with sender unit just weighed = 5.2kg

NB: I originally tried using a cut down original plastic fuel tank and having it professionally plastic welded over with the same material. This was installed but the welds all failed shortly after. You have never seen me run down the road so fast trying to get away!  

The problem was that the plastic was contaminated with the fuel residue. Even if the fuel tank is brand new I would not personnally recommend this procedure.

Cheers,

G.P.

Suggested alternative for the front brake calipers.

Willwood Midilite 4 - Pot Caliper Part No. 120-7473 (Piston dia. 1 3/8") Weight 1.91 kg

Front discs (rotors)  are 283mm. dia. twin ventilated disc.

Parts and aluminiun HE 30 bar blanks, supplied as a do-it-yourself (with my father) kit from Rally Design Ltd. in Kent, U.K.

http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/contactus.php

http://www.rallydesign.co.uk/pdf/designing_4_pot_brakes.pdf

http://www.wilwood.com/

Pads fitted are Competitition use Mintex Midlite M1144. I have a set of EBC Greenstuff Pads which are quite good, but not as aggressive and more suited for road use.

Further nuts and bolts, machining of blank discs and fitting information provided by Hi-Spec Motorsport in Dartford, Kent, U.K.

http://www.hispecmotorsport.co.uk/

http://www.hispecbrake.co.uk/brackets.htm

http://www.hispecbrake.co.uk/fitting_instructions.htm

http://www.hispecbrake.co.uk/caliper_conversion.htm

http://www.hispecbrake.co.uk/Bleeding%20Brakes.htm

http://www.hispecbrake.co.uk/road_test.htm

http://www.hispecbrake.co.uk/bedding_in.htm

http://www.hispecbrake.co.uk/trouble_shooting.htm

The rear brakes are currently heavy Sierra Cosworth 4 x 4 Calipers with single cross drilled disc (diameter not known and too cold in the garage to measure right now!) See image

NB: the front  hydraulic circuit has a Willwood pressure reduction valve fitted and the rear hydraulic circuit has the pressure reduction valve (under the front of the rear offside wing) removed.  This gives the rear maximum pressure and I can then reduce or increase the front system pressure for brake balance and road conditions as required.

Cheers,

Graham

Far from it...  And if your MoT tester used the brake rollers and asked the weight and used that for his calculations then he did the test incorrectly anyway since he MUST do it with a 'G' meter such as the Tapley meter on the road - that is the ONLY Ministry acceptable way for a car not listed on their computer or weight charts.  He can be reported for doing anything else and any result (pass or fail) can be challenged.

All this is stated in my website FAQ.

As it happens your car may even be lighter than 1000 kg.  The reason the Murena brakes are so good, is that Matra designed the car well.  My car has always locked all four wheels on a brake roller and both rears with the handbrake - and you can't get any better!

Roy (Ministry MoT tester)

If I have to say something... save 100kg will be a great succes on Murena, but will cost a lot of money, nearly "non-sense" amount. You can replace all body parts by carbon ones, you can cut off the metal sheets in the boot, you can replace all glass by a plexi ones, demount inner door panels, all upholstery, make a carbon dashboard... That could realy save a lot of kg, but costs thousands... Sorry, making holes in brake pedal, cutting fuel tank or buying expensive plexi rear triangels only for save in total 5kg  ::) it's better have no food and no drink before driving  :D

And second very important thing is that first you have to be sure that your car is in fabric condition, I mean that some older engines looses their power and better than tuning is to renovate them to have really 92, 118 or 144 PS and not for example 80, 103 and 130. My Tagora 2,2 had only 101PS except of 115 when it had cca 250t km and my SX had only 150 PS except 165 PS only because of bad exhaust! There is a video of beautifull yellow Bagheera I on Youtube, but lot of smoke goes from its exhaust  :( and also there is a Murena 1,6 on Midland circuit where you can see smoke from exhaust - valve o-rings or wearn cylinders?

Also very important are driver skills - just all of you can try how fast you can reach 100 km/h, are you able to make it in same time which is written in Murenas documents?  ;)

I find the rear caliper very light compared to many other cars that also has the inbuild handbrake.
perhaps is the citroen bx and xantia) caliper wich is in solid aluminium maybe lighter.

that brake convert looked nice. very nice  :)

Yes, I realise that, but it's a local independent garage I've known for a great many years and I've no wish to upset him by telling him how to do his job.  Besides, the roller test is a better test.  When I got my car, it had an MoT yet the handbrake had been bodged to only work on one wheel.  That had probably been done the "correct" way with a 'G' meter, the Murena brakes are probably good enough to scrape through the test in this condition.

Hi Oskar,

Yes I do agree the rear caliper is a very light unit compared to other cars. The heaviest part of it being the mounting bracket.

A suggested alternative for the Topic though is the Willwood Powerlite / Handbrake Caliper Part. No. 120-9463HB Weight 2kg

See image.

I'm very pleased you liked and appreciated my front brake conversion. I enjoy the challenge of the study, design and implementation of these sort of projects.  Also gettting to spend some time with my 76 year old father in his machine workshop, keeping him active and alert for many years to come hopefully (Just like my 2.2 Murena - click on PDF File below).  :)

Happy New Year,

Graham

lost a little bit of weight!!

Ohh, that looks like carbon fiber. Sweet. :D
And you haven't even cut the holes in it yet. That should loose another 8,2 g or so. ;D

I saw on hte 5th Gear show that the new BMW M3 has a carbon fiber roof instead of fiber glass. Tha supposedly took off kg's and lowered the center of gravity. That could be done on the Murena too. :)

Heater Matrix and Control Box 3.8kg
Suggested Alternative: http://www.cbsonline.co.uk/43kw-car-heater-heat2-4489-p.asp


Ventilation Fan 1.9kg
Suggested Alternative: http://www.cbsonline.co.uk/axial-fan--axfan-1095-p.asp

Very nice craftsmanship Darren and entering into the spirit of the topic very nicely. I feel ashamed of my pathetic polycarbonate louvered quarterlights now!  ;D

Let us know when you decide to go large and make a roof panel. I'll have one.

Happy New Year,

Graham

I(myself) lost 25 lbs since this summer..... can I keep my heater then?..... please?... ;)

Well done Krede, I only lost 20lb. myself.
As you live in Denmark of course you can keep your heater, but only if you have not put on any weight over the festive season though?  :)

Godt nytår

Graham

Thanks Graham, and the same to you! :)
My plan is to loose a further 25 lbs or so.. that should bring me to my "ideal weight"... and account for the Turbo I plan on putting on my car at some point ;)

Just made a carbon under body guard orignal 1150gms new one 652gms could have made it lighter but the new one is stiffer than the orignal and much stronger

Hi Darren,

That looks nice. I would be very interested to know more about the subject and theory of carbon fibre fabrication. Would you consider starting a topic on this subject and compile a list with photos of all the components you have manufactured so far for the Murena?

Don't forget to add me to the list for a roof panel!  ;)

Cheers,

Graham

P.S. njesper. I was enjoying this thread you started. Please don't give up!

Anyone interested in lightening the car by making Carbonfiber parts should look at this site:

http://carbonmods.co.uk/

They sell parts to a lot of cars, but of course you will have to make your own for a Murena. ;)

They sell do-it-yourself kits for varying purposes, and they have online instruction videos, so no excuses guys, :D

I plan to make new housings for the side mirrors and Jan, Jesper and I are talking about replacing the rusty plates in front of the heater fan and windshield wiper compartments with carbon fiber. A new set of inner fenders and the shell under the battery/spare wheel could be next. ;D

I also like Darrens under-the-engine plate, but mine never had one (only the German Murenas had them, as far as I know), so I lack a mold and possibly the mounting points. ???

2.2 Engine assembly with no gearbox, intake or exhaust manifolds. (Politechnic Cam Cover fitted) = 151kg
Suggested lightweight and powerful engine alternatives anyone?

!!  thats e heavy beast that n9tea :)   add another 15kg with your intake and exhaust :)

i suggest xu9j4.  1.9l  16v  and much lighter and powerful

a smaller battery can easy save you some kg

I strongly suggest that you get a good strong battery... you need the juice..

AER's "Mazda MZR-R" (it's a British engine all the way despite the Japanese manufacturer name) weighs HALF that (including turbo and manifolds!) and produces 450 BHP reliably for 24 hours. You won't get it any leighter than this, or more powerful! :D

http://www.aerltd.com/products.html

150kg.. how much was the gearbox?
Either way, I'm not sure that is could be described at "insanely" heavy..
Take a look at these

http://www.team.net/sol/tech/engine.html

Still... some 30+ more than the Douvrin 2.0 they Matra planned to use.. it is listed at roughly 120 kg.

2.2 Murena Gearbox 48kg.

http://fixrambler.com/engineweightchart.txt

Same link as above but with additional data. Take the Ford 2.3 Pinto at 328lbs/149kgs. This shows that in it's day the Murena 2.2  engine weight was more or less the standard.

carbon radiator guard , orignal metal one 488g new carbon 139g a bit of saving . going to try make the mounting brackets next

just done the brackets for the above panel and it fits

I'm very impressed with your work, Darren!

/Anders

+1!

Have you thought about starting some sort of production ?..

yes i can make more if required , i have made moulds as i go along, i think an engine and boot cover next

I'm also interested - parts which are not visible (carbon radiator guard, underbody guard) + if You are going to make engine cover (which is simply changeable to original one), take this as an order from me. Thank You in advance  ;)

Yahh.. engine cover would be nice...

And You will save 5kg  ;)

I think I will have one made in Aluminium. I need a custom job with a bulge to accommodate my intercooler (when I get so far).

Hello guys, and it's here... ::) ;D as we say: "You'll allways have the biggest piece of that cake You didn't wanted to eat..." - I asked my friend who is racing with his Mercedes 190E 2,5-16V if I can take a part on next race on circuit, and what happend? He managed it!  :D Well this saturday is the race, and who will be my competitors? Audi Quattro, Porsche 911, BMW E30 M3, Jaguar XJS V12, 2x Lancia Delta HF and 4x Mercedes-Benz 190E 2,5-16V  :o ??? :-X All cars arround +230PS  :-\
So what I'm going to do - put off some kilograms and make the suspension harder:
- I changed the wheels to BBS RS 15" with tyres Toyo Proxes 195/50R15 and 215/45R15
- changed all silentblocs of front stabilisator to Polyurethan ones (much more harder = less of side tilt)
- will demount passengers foot-hold, door panels with speakers, el.windows engines, side windows will be changed to plexi glass (but does it make sense? How much kgs it could be in total?)
- removing the spare wheel
- rear glass will be changed to plexi
- engine cover will be made from alu sheet
- set-up of front axle will be changed a little bit more to "A"
- my Spax suspension will be lowered as much as possible
- minimum of fuel in tank

 Do you think that demounting of passengers seat will help so much? How much is its weight?

 I want to make only that modifications, which will be easilly possible to make back to original condition - you all know me  ;) so is there something on your mind what more could be done?
 On friday I will go to circuit to test the suspension changes and new tyres, so I have only today and tomorrow.

 It doesn't look so bad on that BBSs, what do you think?


(http://michaltalbot.sweb.cz//BBSlm.JPG)

(http://michaltalbot.sweb.cz//BBSpm.JPG)

But Michal.... after that treatment... your car will not be original anymore!!! :P

Nice wheels though!.... think the new tyres will so you more good than any of the other changes you've made.

Personally I think you should drive carefully. It will be lots of fun no matter what, but what a shame if you crash into a barrier or other cars.  :o

That is one beautiful Murena S you got there. Keep it safe. 8)

Hi Michal,

The wheels look really good I must say.  
Keep a good check on the wheel nut torque settings each time you come in. If the wheels are brand with inserts they may take some time to settle down with hard use. I use 108Nm torque on my alloy wheels.
Tyre pressure as per Matra reccomendation at high speed. 2.1 bar front / 2.5 bar rear, even with the bigger wheel size. Keep checking these pressures each time you come in also.
Remove the car jack/handle also and absolutely everything that is loose in the inside the car.
Don't know if you have enough time, but 1.5 deg negative camber on the front will help, by adding extra shims at the top of the suspension mounting.
The rear plexi-glass will need a support of some kind in the middle, as it will bang  like crazy otherwise.  See pictures below.
The passenger seats I would personally leave in. They do not weigh that much and it will detract from the cars unique seating arrangement, which is one of the main features that I find catches the publics awareness and appreciation of the cars anyway.
You may also consider using an additive to the petrol, such as Millers Oil Motorsport competition Valve Lubricant and Octane Booster for more engine protection and supplying the right 5 star octane the engine was designed for anyway.
Have a great time and enjoy the left hand corners, but take care on the right ones!  :)

Cheers,

Graham

Thank you all for reactions!

Krede: only for this time, on Sunday I will put everything back  ;)

Jon Weywadt: thank You ;) race will be made by the system of one solo lap - fastest time will win. So I will be alone at the circuit - that is one of things why I decided to go there - no risk to be crashed by some axxhole  ;)

GP: thank You very much. I was allready 7 times on this circuit with Matra, if I remember good, I will set the tyre presure a little lower, because press will increase after warming the tyres. How much have You added for 1,5° - one will be enough? Interesting advice about middle support, but must to find a solution how to mount it without destruction cars originality...
I think absolutely the same about the passenger seats. I have no personal experiences with fuel aditives, but will have Shell V-power Racing 100 oct. (as usually) which is free of those f-u-c-k-ing ecology bioaditives.

Most circuit is full of corners and only one longer plane, so think that Murena is not absolutely without chances  ;)

Maybe I've found it - I will make the support right into the alu engine cover which will be holded by two original "little arms"

Hi Michal

Concentrate on the handling and do not worry too much about weight, it will not be good to have a light car that handles like an oil tanker.

Good luck
John

Ik have demounted a murena with fire damage:

If a normal scale can handle it, i will measure the weight of the trunk tomorrow (tomorrow it also must go to the wreckyard).

(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_X0FcydpMzdk/S6kFmLP3xmI/AAAAAAAAAk4/JD3PGi1Bcb4/s512/DSCF1727.JPG)
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_X0FcydpMzdk/S6kGueQ7tqI/AAAAAAAAAjQ/VImEG1WWfjc/s720/DSCF1766.JPG)

I will keep the front end and engine bay (for fitting an MI16 without putting my car in the garage)

Tomorrow all the junk with the cockpit part and the trunk will go to the wreckyard.
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_X0FcydpMzdk/S6kGr2tFbiI/AAAAAAAAAjI/WW9n5NNBczs/s720/DSCF1764.JPG)
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_X0FcydpMzdk/S6kGtMMUVSI/AAAAAAAAAjM/sTM3PTZWdhA/s720/DSCF1765.JPG)
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_X0FcydpMzdk/S6kELRk4qzI/AAAAAAAAAeo/3b_kDBtOmYQ/s720/DSCF1681.JPG)

I still have a lot of parts, so which weights you want?

... stop posting snuff pics mate!... it buts everybody ion a bad mood.... :(.........  ;)

It had an engine fire sadly.

But it also was not treated right. broken bits like door handles ware fixed with  tape etc. and the whole brown interior was painted black very badly. only could save the seats.
There were a lot of cracks and bits out of the fiberglass.

The option of restoring it was not an option anymore sadly.

MatraMurena.nl: do You know why it was burned?

Tomorrow I will leave for testing at the circuit, still thinking about demounting the door panels + el.wind.motors + side windows + passenger foot-rest. Does somebody know the weight of these parts??? Thanks in advance.

Isn't engine bay fires due to leaking fuel pumps almost mandatory on murenas??

I know mine had one some way back before I bought it.

That is what I hear and that is why I always have a 2Kg powder fire extinguisher in the car.

But, fortunately, my mechanical fuel pump has been replaced by an electric pump, that is mounted on the fire wall. So I hope I will never  have to use the fire extinguisher. ;D

I will give you the weight of these parts (except the passenger foot rest.

trunk: 15,5 kg
stripped door panel with speaker hole: 2 kg

the window and motor will be measured tomorrow.

Hi Michal,

To late now for you I know, but if you or anyone else is considering doing a track day, solo, sprint, hillclimb etc. one of the best mods as stated earlier by JL is to the handling.
One of the most dramatic changes can be had from the tyres. I actually from experience gained 5 secs. for a lap at Brands Hatch using Toyo Proxes R888's. 205/50ZR15 Front, 215/50ZR 15 Rear, in a medium hard compound (GG), which are a road legal competition tyre and very durable.
They do quite a range of different sizes and much to my good fortune they do a super soft/wet compound (SG) in the 15" range as a 195 and a 205. This will suit me perfectly for a short hiilclimb or sprint regardless of the weather conditions.

Cost of these tyres from Demon Tweeks: 195's £111.93 each. 205'S £130.80 (Total for a set £483.93 / 537.30 EUR)

http://www.toyo.co.uk/productdetail.php?identity=products&product_id=18

Graham

And if you have plans for suicide take this one.
(http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/6865/p1020045medium.jpg)
(http://img404.imageshack.us/img404/4433/p1020095medium.jpg)

The most shitty tyre I ever had.
Every curve is a adventure.

I used those, new ones on trackdays.  in warm weather they where actually good and predicted.  but in wet the car wanted to oversteer as soon as you turned.  very fun but not so quick  ;D
think they cost 40-50euros/tyre

And what You've been waiting for? :D They are from China! All Chinese tires are dangerous! When there was a wet brake test, where they were comparing good tires (Michelin, Bridgestone, Pirelli, GoodYear) with chinese tires (Vanli, Nankang, Sunli, Goodride) the result was:
1) braking from 100km/h - when cars with good tires were allready standing, cars with china tires were still at 60km/h  :o
2) most of chinese tires were broken before reached allowed top speed  >:(

Personally don't like anything from China, 99% of their production is a crappy shi*, I preffer 10 years old Hi-Fi Made in Germany than brand new Somy or Fillips Made in China - it allways works for few months...

I liked to have 205 on the back, and then choices are limited on 14"
I was busy for months to find something that would suit my needs, and couldn't make a choice.
I finaly desided this way.

(http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/8117/p1020054medium.jpg)

HA HA HA HA HA!!!  ;D

Oetker:  :D :D :D

Judging by what you have to say about those tires, that was a "miss" ;)

It was a miss, but I think all 4 would have been a miss, so I want try the others, and go straight for a brand tire.
The Murena is sensitive on tires and previews and tests by costumers don't help.
The Nankang could perform well on one car but be a pain on another.
It is how setup comes together (shocks weight) and how you like the handling.
Most Murena drivers I spoke and experimented with it say, standard wheels, standard sizes, and Michelins, but the new generation of Michelins is different.
Tire brands want to contribute in saving the world and make tires that save energy, and that changes driving capability by perfoming bad in the wet.
Also Bridgestone has a ER300 eco in program, wich I carefully walked around.
I don't want to save the world, but help my goverment true the recession, buying the more high taxed fuels and tires that burn more. :D

I have moved my reply to the, Best tires for original alloys, thread, as this one is drifting off the weight topic. ;)

just done a pair of carbon inner 1/4 panel arch stone guards as i have had one missing for years

Not from Murena, but can be useful:
From www.mi16.nl:
Xu9J4 (mi16)
Engine weight (dry, with flywheel, alternator & starter)
   
132.7kg

I'm missing them both and I would like to replace them.
Do you have the exact measures?

just done a mould and carbon part . the panel under the heater motor , heater panel next originall panel 245gm and carbon 52gm and its stiffer

Updated the summary of this thread (post 1 page 1) until reply # 88.

KEep it coming  ;)

btw.

SAFETY FIRST
To the guys who contemplate on using plexiglass for replacing windows (ex.front), please choose lexan/polycarbonate instead.
Plexiglass is prone to splinter, when in a collision. Danish racing regulations do not allow the use of plexiglass in racecars for this reason.
The name is Lexan/polycarbonate. This stuff does not splinter, when being squashed, it just bends/deforms, and in the end breaks in a more civilized way.  ;D

This said, you should also think about the same issues with carbon fiber. I don't know if there is a way to actually encase the carbon, so that it cannot splinter when breaking apart. For the same reason, I would think twice about making the bigger outer panels out of carbon, because it could pose a large threat to people around your car (flying carbon pieces), if you crash.


If anybody has ever come across the BARE WEIGHT of a murena chassis (like when it was pulled out of the zink bath), please let us all know. I'm curious of knowing how much "all the other stuff" actually weighs.

Furthermore, weighing of the seats would also be cool.

Best,

Njesper

I'm not sure, but think that Murena chassis is arround 300kg and passengers seats are very light, somewhere arround 4kg? Drivers seat cca 8kg?

Some time ago Simons were selling a bare Murena 1.6 chassis on eBay, I asked them how much it weighed and they wrote me that it was appx. 200 Kg.

Original Murena Drivers Seat  - 13kg.

Alternative option: Recaro Profi SPA Carbon-Kevlar Fibre  - 4kg. (8.8lbs.)

http://www.recaro.com/index.php?id=3631&region=3&L=2

Wonderful GP,

That's a substantial weight reduction in my opinion.
If you also know the weight of the other seats, please submit  8)

Best,

Jesper

Just done a carbon fibre heater motor cover orignal 583gm carbon 144gm , just out of the mould and not polished yet

Hi Jesper,

Just removed some seats for weighing.

Centre Seat Assembly: 7kg.

Outer Passenger Seat Assembly: 8kg.

Total Weight: 15kg.

Cheers,

Graham

Original 1.6 Murena flywheel  : 7.3kg
Lightened with cut outs and back skimmed: 5.57kg

Original clutch cover : 4kg
New QH one : 3.21kg

Total wieght saved 22% less. It works!

And the back.

Update from:

http://www.designerwheels.co.uk/Alloy_wheel_packages/Carbon_Magnesium_780.aspx:

"Reducing un-sprung weight by 1kg has the effect of reducing your cars body (sprung weight) by 6kg!  This means that if one wheel is 2kg lighter than the wheel it replaces it is like removing 48kg from your cars body".

I never knew that!  :o

GP

I know that there is some truth to it..... but I don't trust it when its written next to a set of £5,138.15 light weight wheels!

Here is something to read about flywheels... think Wheels and tires are mentioned as well :

http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/FLYWHEEL.htm

just done another mould near side front inner wheel arch closing panel in carbon

Are you selling these carbon fittings?

just finished the headlamp vacuum switch cover in carbon

got another part done, fuse box under panel origanl 249gm and new carbon 50gm

I was asking before, but with no answer...

Yes all the parts so far i have made moulds for so that i can do more if required, iam trying to get quicker with better quality and building up to do biger things like front inner panels and roof etc

Darrenheli, you got to be careful saying things like that, I do believe I'm not alone wanting to buy several parts from you now!  ;D

I think what a lot of people would really want, was for somebody to create some side panels/skirts like the ones on the "S" version. The ones that are available are far to expensive.

How much are they? has any one in the uk got some i can copy?

They are 170 euros a piece

I have a pair that will be going on my murena eventually.  Where are you in the UK?

Just done another part windscreen wipe mech panel , behind fuse panel  old part 382gm new carbon part 89gm

Rear screen made from 6mm bronze tinted Polycarbonate Makrolon Longlife Plus with black edging and all holes for fixtures.
Weight 8kg.
Heat formed over an original glass rear screen (weight 15kg) by Plastics for Performance U.K.
http://www.plastics4performance.com/

@ Njesper:

"SAFETY FIRST
........

This said, you should also think about the same issues with carbon fiber. I don't know if there is a way to actually encase the carbon, so that it cannot splinter when breaking apart. For the same reason, I would think twice about making the bigger outer panels out of carbon, because it could pose a large threat to people around your car (flying carbon pieces), if you crash."

Somebody told me, that if there is a layer of thin fiberglass between the carbon-layer the risk of splinting will be reduced. It should crash than similar to full fiberglass and makes the carbon-part more flexible.

Kai

Looks a beauty.
One disadvantage is that there is no defogging in the screen, and I think it is not possible to put on after market because of mis forming.

True about no defogging and definitely not suitable for everyday road cars. When I install it I will fit the louvered side windows that appear earlier in this thread for some ventilation. With my previous flat polycarbonate screen I had to fit a support bracket  in the middle to stop drumming. Fingers crossed now that having the compound curves it may be stiffer and not require this support?

GP

It might have been covered before, but i noticed/wondered how heavy the front bonnet is.




6mm sounds a bit thin and flimsy. Or does the shape makes it more solid? 
At my work there are machines equiped with makrolon lexaan panels. These panels also do crimp/expand quite a lot on temperature changes.  And when there is too much stress concentrated on a point, it crackes. (like  a bolt under stress, or a bolt overtightend)  Also do not use nutlock (loctite) on bolts through lexaan. The nutlock flued gets in the pores and the panel crackes around the hole.

The front bonnet has not been weighed yet. I have a spare one, but as it buried at the back of my shed and it has started snowing I think it can wait for now.
6mm is quite flimsy but the compound curve appeared to stiffen it up. All your comments are very valid and I would now like to add that if you dribble stale concentrated petrol residue out of an old motorcycle carb. on it by mistake the plastic etches badly and also cracks,  as if someone has hit it with a hammer.   Ahhhhhhhhhhhg!  :'(
GP

That sucks. :o
Redo from start?  :-\

It definitely does suck. I threw the screen away immediately to get it out of my sight.
The whole project involved 2 x return journeys totaliing 1360kms. The cost of the screen £220 and approximately £150 of fuel.
I will have to start again, but that project has now definitely gone to the back of the wish list.
I will be stronger and MORE CAREFUL from the expereince though!  ;D

GP

Original 3 x Speed Ventilation Fan 2kg

Single Speed Ventilation Fan from Car Builder Solutions 1kg. (£28:00)

Fits using the original mount bracket with some meccano type brackets and some spacers. The flexible attachment is a little bit too big, but can be attached with a ty-wrap and some bonding. Wires need extending and plugs into pins 1 & 3 for Speed 1.

No fan will save you one more kg :D

I set up 4 x corner weight scales in my garage today and took great care to make sure they were all level in all directions using plywood and vinyl tiles.
The car was then lowered onto the scales and a total reading of 989kg. was observed.
There is a weight distribution of Rear 59.5% and 40.5% Front.
All fuel was removed as well as spare wheel, wheel jack and brace. NB: My car has been modified and some original items removed.
When I get in the car the front weight distribution improves side to side, but the rear becomes worse side to side.
Some corner weight adjustment will now be required using the front torsion bars and the aftermarket adjustable coilovers on the rear I have fitted.  Some reduction in pie intake has also  been suggested!  ;D

GP