MatraSport Forum

Hi...

I have now collected my german Murena 1.6 and it looks to be in pretty good shape!

I have seen that a fellow danish guy have changed the engine for a 1.9 gti engine from a peugeot 309 I believe. My first question is how the danish car inspection reacted to this mod?

Secondly I'm seriously considering putting another engine in the car, don't get to upset now but the engine I have in mind is the Peugeot 2.0 HDI (90 bhp)!
I know this sounds crazy to some (most I guess), but from my point of view this would be the perfect engine for the little murena!!!
As the basic engine makes the same power the car inspection in Denmark shouldn't be a problem (I hope) and the engine should result in a very good fuel economy (close to 20 km/l  ;D).

At the same time, this being a diesel engine, it's very realiable and starts every morning! Adding a intercooler (can be taken off before an inspection) and having the ECU reprogrammed should provide great torque and plenty of power (>300Nm and 130-140 bhp)  ;)

Only downside I can think of is fitting the damn engine to the car!!! Does anybody know if this is possible at all (I ready to make custom engine mounts and do a bit of work). I think the main problem is the exhuast manifold with the turbo (requires some space) and getting extra ventialtion in the engine bay.

I allready have a motor and gearbox from a peugeot 406 HDI that have done 200.000 km, and I expect to do some extensive measuring when I get back from overseas...
By the way, does anybody know the weight of the 1.6 engine? I don't wanna put add to much excess weight to the car.

Comments on the project in general will be appreciated as well...

Regards,
Valdemar

A diesel-Murena? I've heard about an electric Murena, so why not?

But it is an engineering project to do it. The HDI engines have very advanced engine management systems, adding to the mechanical challenges that everyone will face when attempting an engine upgrade. Lennarts upgrade to the 205 gti engine was within the percentage limit of extra power to his 1.6, so he did not have problems with inspection as far as I understand.

The much higher torque of the diesel engine will have to be carefully evaluated with regards to engine mounts and chassis strength.

I beleive the HDI engines have catalytic converters, which should also be fitted.

There's also an electric fuel pump near the tank that needs to be carried over.

I would not consider such a project, but that's just my personal opinion of course :-)

- Anders

Technical side is one aspect... Diesel engine does not really suit the idea of Murena, i think.
I have just to much respect to this car, so i would not do it.
I just cant get right your plan to save money using modified car as a daily driver,
why not to buy another, much more economic vehicle with diesel engine and leave Murena as a fun car?
 

Hi
In Denmark (and most likely in other countries too) there are two aspects you must consider when you are modifying a car:
1 The modifications have to be approved at the car inspection as “safe”. As an example if you cut or modify the chassis the car is off the roads forever!
2. If your modifications change the "identity" of the car you will have to go the tax/ customs people and pay duty as if it is a different car. The inspection people will send you to the coustoms people if you forget to do so yourself.

Almost any thing can be done if you have the skill and sufficient funds.
On a UK web page I just found the description of how to fit a V8 Rover into a Ford Sierra. However the comment from the author was:
“But frankly if you needed to ask, then its probably not a job you should do... “
Consider that!

Hi again...

Well the issue of changing the identity of the car does not apply as the danish tax rules specificly allows an engine replacement from petrol to diesel and vice versa...
My thoughts are more if the car must have an approval with the specific engine installed!
As the 205 gti engine have never been fitted to the car from the Matra factory, from my point of view the same rules apply if fitting a 406 HDI engine.
The big difference I see is that the inspectors won't have any problems figuring out that the HDI engine is not orginal   >:( But the more I think of it, the more I wan't to do it!

Artur mentioned to leave the Murena as a fun car... from my point of view the HDI engine will increase the fun factor due to the extra torque and power and will leave me with a real big grin on my face each time I need to refuel  :D
Besides I can't afford a second car due to road tax and insurance (I'm a student), and my current car is due for an inspection late this year, and I expect to sell it or trash it when the inspection is due!

I didn't write on the forum because I thought some would tell me it's a 3 day job to swap them over... I'm expecting to use most of summer getting the job done! My main objective is to do the conversion without cutting and welding the chassis or bodywork.
I will have a much closer look at the HDI and Murena engine compartment next weekend. At first glance the main task is as mentioned to fit the exhaust manifold and get enough cooling! I expect to make new engine mounts, exhaust system, gear linkage, modifyed driveshafts and that the electrical system will require a lot of work and modifying...

Anyone that would like to know how I get on, can follow this thread as I will write about the project as I move forward, if there's any interest that is...

Kind regards,
Valdemar

I absolutely agree that the HDI engine will increase the fun factor significantly!!

Swapping with the HDI engine will not change the car's identity.

I'm full of respect of your persistence and enthusiasm! YES we want to hear more - and give you any advice we can!

- Anders

I have done a small research about sport cars with diesel engines:
Opel EcoSpeedster
The two-seat prototype (1.3-liter, 82 kW/112 hp CDTI) is based on the mid-engined Speedster roadster, but features new, carbon fiber bodywork with much improved aerodynamics. With significantly reduced drag (cD= 0.20) and even lower weight (around 660 kg), the Eco-Speedster takes up where another Opel prototype left off 30 years ago: On June 1, 1972, at the company's Dudenhofen proving ground, a modified Opel GT with 95 hp, 2.1-liter turbocharged diesel engine made the headlines by setting several world records for diesel passenger cars and reached a top speed of 197.5 km/h. Shortly afterwards, Opel launched the Opel Rekord 2.1 D, its first diesel-engined passenger car.
VW EcoRacer
The EcoRacer uses a carbon-fiber monocoque worthy of a Formula 1 machine. The engine, mounted amidships, the 1.5-liter, turbocharged direct-injection, four-cylinder diesel develops 134 hp and a maximum torque of 184 lb-ft, which is available between 1900 and 3750 rpm. The particulate filter- equipped common rail turbo-diesel is mated to a six-speed, twin-clutch DSG transmission.
Not only does it accelerate from 0 to 60 mph in 6.3 seconds and top out at 143 mph, according to VW, it also averages a miserly 80 mpg.
So, its very modern idea  -  a sport car with diesel engine...
Even if I dont like it enough, Waldo, please inform about your progress!

Oh yes, and after Le Mans 2006, I think the world press will overflow with diesel stories. :-)

"think" ... or is that a hope ?
Anyway, as long as we don't get rain during the 24h, I'm pretty sure the Audi Tdi will stand a very good chance of winning, and the petrol-heads will have to succumb to the fact that diesel has become sporty :-)

/Lennart

Hi
I have just put a 1.6 engine with gearbox (Peugeot BE1 gearbox) on a scale and the weight is exactly 150 kg. However the 2.2 engines is heavier than a1.6 so most likely the HDI engine will be within the weight limits for the Murena.
As it is possible to find space to fit a petrol turbo engine in the Murena it must also be possible to find the space for a turbo diesel.
I have heard that somebody who have done several engine transplants in different cars always build a model/ muck-up of the engine room out of plywood in order to figure out how to fit the engine. He claimed that this method saved a lot of time as doing the test fitting outside the car was very easy.
If you install an intercooler the airflow for the intercooler will be a problem, a water-cooled charge cooler will solve that problem but they are very expensive.

By the way: This evening I managed to get my 505-turbo engine running for the first time. I have had great difficulties in starting the engine and have spent a lot of time checking the wiring. I can tell you there are a lot of wiring, relays and interlocking on such an engine. It has three separate “computers” i.e. ECU, ignition curve management and knock sensor computer. I did not find any error in the wiring, but just suddenly when I pressed my red starter putton the engine fired up; there must have been a bad and/or corroded wire connection somewhere.
I have the engine in an engine stand in my workshop, in order to be sure that everything is OK before installing it in my Murena 2.2.

regards Hans

Hello again and thanks for the "moral support"...

I appreciate the info Hans, the idea of using a muck-up it very interesting... hadn't thought of that before!

I'm aware of the airflow "problem" (or challenge as I would put it). My best idea for now is to take out the rear side windows and have ducts made up so that air will be guided down into the engine bay... As I earlier wrote I don't like to cut in the bodywork, as I prefer to have the option of getting the car back to original setup later on... (one day it will be a really seldom classic, and I don't wanna ruin this fact by doing modern mods)

About the electrical engine management, I believe I have a big advantages as I actually have a fully functional 406 HDI 90 standing in my garage... (it have been in an accident, only bodywork damage)
This means that I can test the functionallity as I take parts of the 406, to see what is needed for the ECU and etc.

I will surely keep the thread running as people seems to have the needed interest!

Thanks,
Valdemar

Can I just point out that you need to be careful with the design of the ducting; the Murena is designed to bring air into the engine bay from the bottom behind the seats and it flows over the engine and down and out the bottom under the boot.

I have seen forward facing ducts on a Murena replacing the grille that matches the petrol cap. They don't work because the pressure from below would push against the ducted air making it ineffective.

If you are going to replace the side windows with vents guess it could work as you could design the ducts to join the upflow , if all that additional pressure under the boot doesn't cause it to take off! ;D

Hi
As an additional remark to Will comments regarding airflow and engine compartment cooling, I will like to mentioned that a deep front spoiler on the Murena will more or less block the airflow under the car and there by reduce the air circulation around the engine

regards Hans

Hans, I remember your car has a deep front spoiler - how does it manage with that? How do you expect to get enough air flow with the new (presumably) hotter turbo engine?

Just a thought now that you pointed this out.

The 4S had side air intakes and a deep spoiler, but that's a big change to the body.
(http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Murena/Gallery2/Med/4s-top.jpg)
(image from Murena section of Matrasport.dk)

- Anders

As I spent a major part of my time in Africa and other strange places “ I have more projects than I have time” so I’m think a lot about what to do on my projects when I will be back home and will be able to find the time!!
My Murena have a Lamm front spoiler. Not really my taste but what to do? It was on the car when I got it.  Further the car is lowered in the front, I do not know how much it has been lowered as I did not do it myself. As a result there is not much there is not much space under the front of the car. However one benefit it that if I hit a cat on the road is dead on the spot. I do not have to get out and hit it with the jack to relief it from its pain ;-)
My plan is to leave the Lamm spoiler on the car one reason being that part of the original front underneath the Lamm spoiler looks as if part of it has been removed in anger with an axe. In order to get sufficient airflow through the radiator etc. I will increase the size of the air intake in the front by removing the beam in the middle for the number plate and making the hole deeper (Where will you place the front number plate? I hear you ask! Well. For the time being I don’t know) and side air intakes in the front have been considered, but I think that the airflow in the middle of the car is most important for the engine cooling. Side air intakes in the front might be good for a radiator for a water cooled chargecooler!!
I have ben thinking of modifying/ making a new air guidens plate under the car in order to “shovel” more air up through the engine compartment.  But I am for the time being not sure if that will be a good idea. Ground clearence might be a probleme.

I will keep the turbo boost of the engine within “moderate levels” (220 HP is my target for the time being) in order to keep heat production within limits, and I am considering water-cooled intercooler and an oil cooler in order to remove heat from the engine compartment. To replace the rearwindov with a Farrary style back is in my thinking not a good idea as the airflow on the back of the engine (where you have the very hot turbo) will be reduced, as you will have the air flow up the front ot the engine and out in open air through the air scoopes of the Farrari back.

By the way Andes: Where can I buy a S4 frontspoiler?

Regards Hans


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You must have many cats where you live? Hwr, I'm sure we have more here in Copenhagen.

No, I don't know where to get a 4S front spoiler, even Politecnic doesn't have it... I think I read somewhere that it was made of rubber, or at least the lower part was. Having driving a J11 Espace which has a glass fiber front spoiler, I really consider rubber far superior to glass fiber since just a bit of frozen snow can break the stiff spoiler.

You have some ram air intakes in the front of your spoiler, they should be excellent for channeling cold air to brakes / engine / intercooler / oil cooler. Prototype racing cars usually have the radiators and turbos at the sides, and large air intakes there. This is ok on the race cars since the designers go through a lot to ensure that flow is good around the radiators, but in the Murena the side will never be a high pressure area.

The front is, however, and with your low spoiler, even more than the original.

If you put a smooth underpan in the car, you can control the air flow, and with a diffuser at the rear you can even gain downforce back there (I don't remember if you have the Murena S-rear spoiler, which has the effect of increasing the vacuum at the rear thus enhancing a rear diffuser's effect).

Regarding the Ferrari style engine cover, I don't think it will change a lot since the air over it will be mostly turbolent and not in vacuum. It will not suck air out. The suction is at the rear of the car - which is good for your turbo if you preserve or enhance the rear ventilation exits.

All this is speculation, I'm afraid (I don't even own a Murena - yet) - but I've just finished reading Joseph Katz: Race Car Aerodynamics, so I guess I'm in an 'inspired' state just now :)

I've been thinking a bit more, and I found a picture of your car in my files... still inspired by the book, but also from todays (wet) day on www.sportscarevent.dk (http://www.sportscarevent.dk) :D

I don't think you should remove the license plate from the cooling duct, I'm sure there's enough air there, and you can always mount a second ventilator behind the radiator. You will probably also need a bigger (fatter?) radiator?

Your air intake (front brake cooling?) in the front can be replaced with something oval and a smooth tube directly to the air intake to the engine - that will give it plenty of fresh air. The other can be used to feed air to your oil cooler and around the engine.

The two rectangular intakes can be used for brake cooling.

- Anders (inspired and thoughts running!)

 

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Hello, I'm back with both good and bad news!

The Murena passed the car inspection in Denmark yesterday  ;D
and I will be paying the reg. tax tomorrow...  :-\

Further more a good look at the HDI engine and gearbox shows that the installation should be possible without to much magic.

I have talked to the danish tax office, and installing a HDI engine won't upset them at all.
But the danish car inspection seems keen on causing problems. I spoke to an engineer on the phone, and he wasn't really happy with the idea.
First of all he made sure that I was familiar with the danish 20% power increase limit. Then he started telling of exhaust limits, but these don't apply for a car older than 1987.
The final thing that might be able to spoil the fun, is that the car inspection can/will require a "drive by" noise approval, which is rather expensive and from my point of view completely unecessary to say the least! (there is no way the noise level will be significant higher than with the rather loud petrol engine)

All in all I think I will go to the local car inspection and ask them... in the end what I need is their signature on the test report!

Cheers,
Valdemar

I have never heard about the noise approval being necessary - I would expect that if the person doing the inspection beleives that the car is very noisy, then he may require you to do it - but if it obviously is not, then they will not require it. I'm sure it's not necessary to have a certificate proving that the noise level is within the bounds.

It looks like you've found a picky engineer :)

Hello,

My project have been on hold for a very looong period of time, but it's now back in action!

Have made engine mounts for the HDI engine (the original mounting points will still be used)
Fitted a custom made exhaust manifold (space was limited)
Prepared a custom exhuast system based on the HDI (incl. cat and rear box)
Looked into the gear linkage (gear stick postions will be swaped 1st will become 2nd, 2nd will become 1st)
Decided to reduce the size of the petrol/diesel tank
Test fitted the engine and checked the clearance for the suspension, wheels aso.

Things that I will be doing soon:
Modifying the fuel tank (welding).
Joining the outer Murena driveshafts with the HDI inner shafts (welding).
Finishing the Gear linkage.
Connecting the hydraulic clutch.
Installing the ECU and engine wiring for the HDI engine.

Will move forward with the project over the next weeks, i hope to have the engine running within 14 days!

But it will be somewhat longer before the car is on the road... I will do a complete overhaul incl. a paintjob and new windscreen and seats!

By the way, I could use some help from you guys  ;)

Anyone:
got a spare fuel tank that they don't intend to use?
that know someone that can weld plastics?
know where to get a set of "spring bases" (Federteller) for spax dampers?


Take care,
Valdemar

Hi Valdemar.
Quite an interesting project you have started!..
I would love to pop by and have a look at your work on time.. :)

Perhaps Ruud from Carjoy can help you out with the fueltank... I belive he modifies the fueltanks he use for his v6 alfa conversions.

The car inspector can demand a noice test (approx 4-5000 dkr), If he deem it nessesary.. and IF the car registered first time AFTER 1982 (I dont have the exact cut date with me.. but I can find out when I get home).
But.. being a diesel, I cant imagine hot it could possibly make more noice then a petrol.. the turbo alone scould shut it up quite a bit.

The power output might become a problem since you cannot legaly increase the power more then 20% in the 1.6 without having it tested by Tüv ect.
The reason for this is, that the 1.6 is NOT technically identical to the 2.2 S (apart from the engine).
But if its a 90 hp HDI Engine you are using you should have no problems what so ever.

 

Hi Krede,

I'm using a 90HK HDI engine, for the exact same reason... If I feel the need, I guess it can slightly tuned after the inspection ;)

This car is a 1982... maybe that's going to be a problem.

If anyone in Denmark knows some nice people at a car inspection I would like to know... I'm not trying to get a dangerous car on the road, but I'm sure you know how picky they can be when they see something modified!

Krede,

You are of course welcome to drop in for a look and a drink...
Car is located at my work near Korsør, fortunately I have a big garage availible there  :D

By the way, I'm aware the 2.2 differ in some ways, can you confirm it's the rear trailing arms, anti rollbar and rear brake setup?

Maybe I should get a 2.2 for parts from germany at some point... anyone that would be in on a project like that?

Both Matra_Hans and me are fitting turbos to our cars (eventually).. so we will have alot to do with the authorities in the up comming time....

Your main problem (as I see it) Is that you are fitting a different engine all togeather... that might be more then the average Inspector is ready to aprove without some sort ofdocumentation..  :-\... but if, as you say, you are not cutting or welding in the frame but are sticking to making new engine mounting brackets.. you might get away with it...

As far as I know you are correct.. but I bet Roy can confirm that for sure, if no one else beats him to it :)

Also...

If there is any swedish people reading this I would like to know a little about the rules for having a modified car approved in Sweden. I remember being told "anything" is possible over there  ::)

And according to a former danish car inspector I know they can easily aprove a car that have been through an inspection in Germany or any other EU country (apart from noise and polution).

Chassis is a bit different to accomodate the larger engine - at least initially, as the later 1.6 chassis' were more or less identical to the 2.2's, except for the heat shield in the back of the engine room and the engine mounts of course. Only reason the trailing arms are wider, is also to accomodate the engine. The problem was that the car was originally designed for an undersquare 2 litre engine, but Matra weren't allowed to use it anyway, so they had to squeeze the oversquare 2.2 in instead.


My suggestion is to go and ask them questions first about your project, that will give you information and give them a chance to get aquainted with you. Psycologically it may make a difference.

The tests they do in Sweeden are more or less the same as in Germany as far as I know.
 

Hello Hans, i'm considering using the 505GTi inlet, ECU and wireing+++ in trying to convert the Murena to injection. Have you removed all/some of the components in your engine and is it very messy? considering there are several control boxes, each with its own function etc. Or would you recommend an aftermarked setup, eg MEgasquirt/Wolf3d?

you can get itr through MOT in sweden if you change the complete brakesystem, then you reg the car as modyfied and can go by the powerlimit 15kw/100kg

yes, you will need a complete original engine with cat and ecu

Razorback wrote:
Hello Hans, I’m considering using the 505GTi inlet, ECU and wireing+++ in trying to convert the Murena to injection. Have you removed all/some of the components in your engine and is it very messy? considering there are several control boxes, each with its own function etc. Or would you recommend an aftermarked setup, eg MEgasquirt/Wolf3d?

Hi
I have just returned back home after 13 months of working in Sudan, so mentally I am still a little knocked out, but any way here are my comments.
Please be aware that a 505 GTI is a complete different car with a different engine compared to the 505 Turbo Injection. If my memory serves me well there have only been build approx. 10.000 units of the 505 Turbo and most of them are sold in the USA. So you will not find any at your local car breaker (unless you are very lucky)
However, the wiring loom on a 505 Turbo is very messy as the car only have one wiring loom taking care of all functions in the car including such items at lights etc. So you will have to cut up the wiring loom and remove the wires that you do not need for engine management. If as an example you take a BMW it will have one separate wiring loom for the basic functions, one for engine management, and one for comfort function.
If I were to convert an existing Matra 2.2 engine to injection I would definitely go for an after market ECU and install and set up all sensors myself.
The three “boxes” for the engine management are:
1 the main engine ECU
2 Ignition advance control
3 Knock sensor.
But I will think that this can be different with the different model years, as an example the 185 HP model had an electric controlled by pass valve i.e. one more “box”

Hans

GOD DAMN IT!!!   :o >:( ::)

This isn`t going to an easy job any way you look at it....

But I thought that GTi was turbo injection....? Is the 505 turbo carb-powered then...?

No
its called 505 turbo injection
but its aint as good as it sounds  (ive owned 3 and 2 went to scrapyard  ::))

Hello Oskar,

You mention upgraded brakes to get the swedish approval, I guess this is only needed if the engine power is increased?

I'm installing a 90 hp HDI engine instead of the 90 hp 1.6 petrol!

If I later decide to upgrade the engine that's another story...  :-X

in sweden we are only allowed for 10% increase in torque >:(

but modifying the complete brakesystem makes the car "changed" and needs to be registerd. There comes the new rules in.  but its not for sure they allow an engine at 150kw just because the brakes are changed.

they might not find it enough strong in chassie to acommodate all horses.

I thought you had the same torque limit as we  ???

No... strangely enough the danish car inspection only care about kw! Which is great when you are considering a Diesel engine  ;D

How do they decide if the brakes are strong enough? As far as i know the standard Murena brakes can lock up all wheels, even on dry roads... And correct me if I'm wrong, but upgraded brakes won't help much when the friction between tires and ground is the limiting factor...
Well overheating could be an issue that will improve with upgraded brakes, could be the reason?

By the way, does anyone know if it's possible to install the rear brakes from the 2.2 on the 1.6 trailing arms?

And a short update on my project... Exhaust is know mounted, the system is build with the orig. cat and a backbox from a Volvo 740, which was the best suited box I could find in Biltema  ;)
It took me a looong time to get the system fitted correctly, with custom made rubber mounts aso but it fits nicely now  :)

Perhaps you guys can help decide the best position for the air filter (intake)... For now I will be running a standard setup with an aftermarket air filter, but I need to find a good location so I get a good flow and if possible rather cold air!
Later I'm going to install an intercooler (probably water cooled) and oil cooler to allow some tuning.
I'm aiming for 140 hp and >300 Nm... should be fun  ;D

SysssshhhH!! they might hear you!!


I think you are right about that..
Though in theory standard brakes should be adequate for ANY modification as long as you are not increasing the weight of the car.... the logic being, that ,the fact that your car has more power, doesn't give you the right do drive any more any faster then you would had your car been stock spec.

If you do, make sure to "upgrade" the entire braking system to 2.2 spec.


Yahh yah yah yah... WE WANT PICTURES!!  ;)
 

The only reason to upgrade to larger brakes is to avoid overheating. If brakes were cooled with indefinite sources of liquid nitrogen or something similar, we could do with bicycle brake discs on our cars!

(http://biketerminal.com/images/shimano%20m965%20disc%20brake.jpg)

According to the law of dry friction, the amount of braking is effected only by the load on the brake pads and a magic number called the 'coefficient of friction'. That number is a constant (in basic physics class at least!), specific to the materials in contact with each other.

In reality it's a lot more complex!

(http://www.brembo.com/NR/rdonlyres/CA92AFBB-B8A3-4C11-8AEA-9D6E711298A0/7924/DiscoFrenoCofuso.jpg)

And you are spot on when you are touching the subject of overheating. The problem is the constant, which changes with temperature. And when the surface temperature of the disc reaches 1000 degrees or more, the disc is no longer solid steel! :D

But in your case, I don't think you should worry. As you mention, the Murena brakes are sufficient, and if you use EBC green stuff pads you will have excellent braking efficiency and unless you are doing a very hard race, you won't have any problems. This is where bhp is more important than torque: bhp determines your speed, which will be the speed you will be braking from - acceleration in the low revolutions means little to how much brake effect you need. It just makes you accelerate quicker out of the corners ;D

And the MoT guys won't worry either as the bhp number is unchanged with the new engine.


No, I think the caliper mount points will be wrong.


Congratulations! When I pass the exhaust section in Biltema, I always get the "I want to build something out of these things!" feeling :D


Above the gearbox facing rearwards, as we have it on the 2.2's.


Sounds reasonable - and fun! :D

- Anders

Hmm... well I guess you're right Anders about the air intake!

I was considering a more simpel location, low in the rear right hand corner (because my turbo is facing this direction), but in wet conditions that won't be very good I guess  ;)

Some more construction work for me...  ;D