MatraSport Forum

General Matra related => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kris on January 29, 2004, 12:00:19 pm



Title: Matra-Conversion
Post by: Kris on January 29, 2004, 12:00:19 pm
hello lennart and others,

i'm kris from germany. me and lennart yet had some discussion by e-mail and i'm very glad to find this forum. I'm one of those who like the matra for their form but want to rebuild it with another engine. unhappily this attitude is not welcome at all in "official" matra-club-scene ... not here in germany and still less in france. so its difficult to find good information ressources and technical support.

my project is a 1973 bagheera and it will be mounted up with a peugeot XU-engine from the same family like lennart's one. i'm a big peugeot 205 GTI-fan and i've got a little stock of parts so that i want to use these components.

as i read and heard about problems concerning the driveshafts in XU-conversed murenas, now i long time i've been looking for a solution with peugeot original parts and i'm near to have found something:

for the murena-owner the solution is simple:

the murenas ME-gearbox from the citroen CX has been and is still produced in a version for the PSA XU-engine, for example in the citroen XM and Xantia 2.0 and 2.0 turbo C.T.

so converting a murena you only would have to take the citroen ME-box, mount it on a XU-engine and mount it in the murena with its original driveshafts. so even the mount of the citroen 2.0 turbo C.T. (good for 200 hp) would be an easy job to do.

for the bagheera the job is harder. there is less space and it has never had the citroen gearbox. but, some years ago a bagheera with 5-speed-box was for sale and i drove the car and asked the owner how he did mount it. he said:i don't remember, was a 1.6 simca motor with gearbox and driveshafts coming from any talbot on a demolition place.

today, i think to know which gearbox it was:

the talbot horizon 1.4 was delivered with a version of the peugeot BE 5-speed-gearbox mounted on the simca-engine and the driveshafts were the same like for the 4-speed-simca-gearbox only the gearbox-side articulation had been changed to peugeot-system.

so if the horizon shafts are used, they seem slightly to short, but the bagheera and horizon-parts could be combined.

so this is my current level of knowledge.

so i'm looking forward to some good discussions here ;-))

greetings, kris




Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: Lennart Sorth on February 03, 2004, 12:14:56 am
whoa, - that 2.0 turbo mod sounds good - I never knew the gearbox was produced that long (or even still)  - it certainly removes the driveshaft-drawback of any conversion.

I use my Murena 1.9 (XU9JA/K) everyday - even here in the wet and miserable winter - and I love the injection. Its doesn't have the same response as my old Weber carburetted 1.6, but its always there, and never gets ice or dirt in any jets ...

Another path for conversion is the high performance, which in this country is out of the question due to tax and law, - but I'd love to try one of the dutch Alfa V6 converted ones, - or in fact this 2.0t thought...

If I had the finances and space, I would own an original Murena, as well as my day-to-day Murena 1.9, - but then again, if I had finances and space, I would also own a Djet ... and ... and ... :-)



Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: Kris on February 04, 2004, 01:11:01 pm
hello lennart,

what exactly is the XU 9JA/K?
injection 8-valve-XU-engines i know:

- XU 5 J / 180 A / 105 hp / Bosch LE-jetronic
- XU 5 J / 180 Z / 104 hp / Bosch LE-jetronic
- XU 5 JA / .... / 115 hp / Bosch LE-jetronic
- XU 9 J1 DFZ / 102 hp / Bosch LU2-jetronic
(- XU 9 M DDZ / 109 hp / Bosch monopoint) one of the conversions linked on your site
- XU 9 J2 D6A / 123 hp / Bosch LH3-jetronic
- XU 9 JA D6B / 128 hp / Bosch LE-jetronic
- XU 9JAZ DKZ / 120 hp / Bosch L-motronic

what is the version JAK? never heard or read about.

did you know that you can change a lot the character of your car by the gearbox ... the BE box existes with several combinations of speed-ratios and diff.-ratios, from 180 km/h at 6.5oo up to 270 km/h at 6.5oo ...

in the 205 GTI depending on the engine and the country there were several gearboxes: 180 kmh at 6.ooo / 190 kmh at 6.ooo / 200 kmh at 6.ooo.

easily the gearbox-ratio of the 5th speed can be changed,so the car will be faster in acceleeration or top-speed: 210 kmh at 6.ooo / 230 kmh at 6.ooo.

greetings, kris





Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: Kris on February 05, 2004, 12:01:20 pm
hello,

its me ;-))
i just did some searching in my literature and found out, what is the XU 9 JA/K engine.

well, in fact, on some few papers the XU 9 JA is also called XU 9 JA/K. so your engine would be a 128hp/94 kw (for germany) or 131hp/96kw (the french info) version with LE-jetronic.

this is a great engine!

greetz, kris



Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: Lennart Sorth on February 06, 2004, 07:22:05 pm
this is a great engine!

Certainly, - but I do have a problem with its smoothness. I didn't have it just after the conversion, but one morning, - soon after I brought it to Denmark - it suddenly started running quite unevenly in the 1500-2000 rev-band. sort of when the ignition or mixture is wrongly set.

Petrol in Denmark has been lead-free for years, even the "leaded" was using lead substitutes, and this was my first suspicion. However, all attempts to boost the octane and other  tricks have however had no effect whatsoever.

Running jet-cleaning fluids for a couple of tankfulls had no effect either.

ignition leads and spark plugs are replaced, the ditributor cap too but to no effect (other than its nice to know its new :-) )

I have had it checked by numerous specialists, without finding anything. - but there are signs that the vacuum-regulation of the ignition timing isn't smooth, but  almost "on/off"

The fault could be in the distributor - but I haven't found a replacement ditributor for any sort og humane money.

Probably my best solution would be to buy a complete Peug 205 1.9gti from Germany (with a good engine), - and then start swapping parts, until the fault goes away.  

This requires money, time and space - all of which is under hard pressure already :-)


Does the symptom ring any bell for you ?


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: Kris on February 06, 2004, 09:57:14 pm
hello lennart,

well - i know some reasons that could cause that effect:

- a broken air-valve, there is a "supplementary-air-valve" below the dsitributor, that is one of the parts that break regulary and cause problems of smoothness ...
- dirty throttle - its a very small opening where the depression for the distributor passes.
- broken or hardened tube from throttle to distributor
- any tube or joint between air-volume-messuring unit and engine broken/open where "wrong" air passes
- maybe oil-filled-up distributor, the distributor gets full of oil when the joint between it and the cylinderhead breaks

to buy a 128 hp-GTI will be quite hard - as these cars never were catalysed, they have nearly gone ... what you find today is the 120 hp-motronic-version - that from engine peripherie has not much to do with the 128hp.

i still have 2x 128hp distributors - usually i sell parts like these for 30 to 40 euros.

whatever you need, i could have it my own or organize it.

greetz, kris

i'll add a photo of a 120hp-engine (well - its a 245hp turbo - but the base is 120hp) as you see the distributor is completely different - electronically arrganged ignition, no more vacuum-regulation




Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: Theo on June 05, 2004, 11:12:45 pm
hi Guys,
I just logged on and visited the forum for the first time...

here is an additional list for power crazy dudes
1.9-16V: 405Mi16 phase 1, Citroen BX 16V, 309GTi16; motorcode XU9J4; 160pk (148pk with cat)

2.0-16V: 405Mi16 phase 2, Citroen ZX, 306 S16; XU10J4 (155pk)

2.0-16V: 306GTi (6bak), Xsara VTS (5speed); XU10J4RS (167pk)

2.0-8v turbo: XM 2.0CT, Xantia, 605, 406, 806; XU10J2ATE (148pk)

2.0-16V turbo: 405T16; XU10J4ATE (200pk)

Better forget about turbo's..... tooo much extra's.. so after 3 years of nothing I started again.. almost from 0 tooooo many new idea's. The 130pk 205 gti's are plenty available in the Netherlands... we love those dirty engines without catalysts from Germany  ;D

Yep, now and then I surf the web for a S16 donor for my Murena... none found yet. But that doesn't fit directly into a Murena 1.6 as many may think.

Cheers, Theo


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: jos on June 22, 2004, 12:15:43 pm
Nice to hear from you in this Forum Theo !

Of course I can recommend a V6 conversion......... ;D ;) 8)

Note rev.limiter has been set at 6900 now.

(http://www.arcor.de/palb/alben/14/151514/1024_6334396438346333.jpg)

(http://www.arcor.de/palb/alben/14/151514/400_3936353734623933.jpg)

With kind regards
Jos

Made in Limburg :D



Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: Theo on June 22, 2004, 12:29:30 pm
jaja JOS...
when I look at that power curve.. I concider to fit the T4 directly and blow yr. car away!!  hehe

well I did start before a V6 was built... it just takes way toooo long  :(

after this summer we might be able to testdrive :-)  I hope.. 230Nm @ 1800-3600rpm  ;D should be enough as a starting point!
Seeya, Theo


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: jos on June 22, 2004, 01:36:12 pm
jaja Theo   ;) ;) ;) A turbo is not a V6 ....  ;D ;D ;D
It is fun but it misses two cilinders, sound etc  ;) ;) ;)

But a twin turbo 3.0 v6...   8)


Doei


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: ketko on June 25, 2004, 12:25:04 pm
I think the XU10-engines are made from cast iron, the XU9-engines are made from the lighter aluminium alloy

I started the conversion of my Murena last week, I'm rebuilding the body panels. The idea is to have a flip-front with new shape and round, recessed headlights (Hella 90 mm).
I will move the vacuum-tank and the petrol-tank to the front compartment.
I've just received my XU9J4 with BE gearbox from a 405MI16, D6C with Motronic ML4.1 = 160HP, no catalyst  ;D
According to http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/pug16v.htm, this engine with modifications will manage 225HP

Lower weight = lower demand for power and better grip, to my knowledge the weight distribution should be in accordance with the tyre dimensions for the best grip.

I will take measures of various parts during the modification process, please let me know if I can assist in any way.

- Ketko, Norway


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: Theo on June 25, 2004, 12:59:07 pm
hi ketko,
225pk is possible with that engine..  ;D it's used in autocross a lot and thus rare to find too.. would be great if you can make some pictures and measurements during the built.. mine 1600 engine is getting at the end of it''s cycle... had already a look at an mi16 same as you but at the moment it's tooo much extra work..

XU10 is casted iron yes... not the better choice.. but could / will be easier to get hold on in good shape.

I''m also planning to move both vacuum tank and fuel tank to the front. The battery will be positioned inside engine bay left side where the tank was.. most space and hopefull easy access.. depends on some hoses etc..

Jos also wants to move the tank to the front.. so for us that is sure interesting... Ulf has already tank in the front but no drawing.. 30 liters I believe.. I'm going for 40 liters.. but there is more space.. 50 liter should be possible.

Keep us updated, Theo


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: jos on June 25, 2004, 01:48:06 pm
Hi Ketko and Theo,

Great that that you have an MI16 engine now ! Getting a bit jalous here....... ;) :) ;)

As Theo already mentioned we are also looking into the fuel tank issue. It would be very helpfull if you could help us out with that one.

Everybody : Have a nice weekend ! Enjoy !

Jos




Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: ketko on June 25, 2004, 03:14:29 pm
Hi !
Nice to know that this forum is active !

Petrol tank :
As I remember, the maximum widht should be 72 cm, the max. height 25 cm and the max depth 32 cm to get a low centre of gravity. Should be filled with foam or have baffles to prevent fuel from sloshing around in the tight bends... :-)
I think 30-40 litres would be the right choice for me, too.
I dont know if Ulf got the approval, but his tank was very expensive (about EUR1000....). WHP-racing made something similar for their project.

A quick calculation says that there should be about 985 kg total, that is 450 kg. in the front and 535 kg in the back. With tyres 195 in front and 225 in the rear the ideal would be something like 457 kg in the front and 528 kg. in the rear... not taking the bigger radiator in concideration, this should be fine..

Have a nice weekend, I sure will use mine in the garage...

- Ketko :-)


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: ketko on June 25, 2004, 10:28:52 pm
OOOPS!!

Measured again today, petrol tank shold NOT be wider than about 70 cm, and not higher than about 23 cm including brackets.
The depth (the dimension in the front-back direction) is somewhat free to choose, taking into consideration where You will have Your spare tyre, battery, vacuum-tank and so on.

My idea is to fasten the petroltank to the plates of the front axle on both sides, and to the small brackets about 24 cm above the front axle.
This will place the tank just in front of the steering axle, and within the wheelbase.
I was thinking of utilizing the tank as a integral support for the front shocks, but this could result in a broken tank....


Hi !
Nice to know that this forum is active !

Petrol tank :
As I remember, the maximum widht should be 72 cm, the max. height 25 cm and the max depth 32 cm to get a low centre of gravity. Should be filled with foam or have baffles to prevent fuel from sloshing around in the tight bends... :-)
I think 30-40 litres would be the right choice for me, too.
I dont know if Ulf got the approval, but his tank was very expensive (about EUR1000....). WHP-racing made something similar for their project.

A quick calculation says that there should be about 985 kg total, that is 450 kg. in the front and 535 kg in the back. With tyres 195 in front and 225 in the rear the ideal would be something like 457 kg in the front and 528 kg. in the rear... not taking the bigger radiator in concideration, this should be fine..

Have a nice weekend, I sure will use mine in the garage...

- Ketko :-)
:-[ :)


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: Theo on August 09, 2004, 07:55:54 pm
hi ketko,
Didn't look at the forum lately.. but now I'm back.
Yesterday I had a look at the fueltank dimensions and I made a few sketches.. one very simple version can be made with 44.x liter volume with enough space for cooling / flow radiator guidance through eg. bonnet; left/right side wheelarces.

bracket at the same place as where the plastic cover sits.. I can make picture withmockup piece and dimensions.. send me a direct email. position of brackets I can not yet make as the car is not yet level... horizontal..
Regards, Theo


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: Baggyjoe on October 18, 2004, 11:29:56 pm
Hi guys

Great to have found this Forum.  Thank you Lennart.

Also, really good to see you guys putting a decent engine in a Bagheera.  Most of the people in the Matra Enthusiasts Club UK where I am a member are also dyed in the wool conservatives who prefer everything to be original.

No harm in that, and I myself like cars to look stock on the outside, but have no objection to sensible and sensitive upgrades to the drivetrain.

Most of the discussion on engine transplants tend to revolve around what engine will mate with the original gearbox.  I prefer to change the whole power unit, gearbox included, and connect the drive shafts to the original wheels.  This obviously would involve the fabrication of new engine mounts, but you have to break eggs to eat omelette.

Most of you are contemplating the use of PSA engines, which has the advantage of staying within the group engineering umbrella. How about the complete transplant of a more modern Japanese powerplant? ;D  A number of possibilities come to mind, the sportier ones being the 4AGE 1.6 supercharged unit from Toyota circa '92 or the more modern 1.6 or 1.8 twin-cam vtecs from Honda.

What do you think?  Sacrilege? :o  Or the creation of a worthwhile wolf in sheep's clothing?

Baggyjoe


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: Theo on October 19, 2004, 05:25:18 pm
I wouldn't worry about the driveshafts.. if a combination of two axles is need then so be it.. or let them special made in worst case.. the rest will bring lots of extra problems once that is settled the shafts are no worry at all.

Room for new powerplant !! main item to look for.  ::)


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: ketko on October 19, 2004, 08:29:40 pm
...to help you make the drivetrain choise easy? :
Seek for drivetrains from front-wheel-drive cars that has a lightweight engine(alloy) which is known to be durable, and preferably with some tuning potential. You choose the power and volume from your needs (Ferrari says that a sportscar should have at least 200hp per 1000 kilogram....)

This engine should be mated with an alloy gearbox with gear-ratios suitable for the cars weight, wheel-sizes, the engines caracteristics and what you intend to use the car for (everyday or racing, maybe something in between?).

Now is the time to check if there is room for your choices, I measured the Murena 2.2 drivetrain, and it is about 102 cm measured lateral WITH NO EXTRA ROOM TO USE !! Then you have to consider engine mounts, tubing/piping, gearlever....

In my opinion there is a little too small room for a turbo in the engine bay(heat buildup), but on the other hand the turbo-way is the quickest way to get power IF you can handle the engine control unit, which should to be reprogrammed if you change anything from stock (exhaust pipes, for instance...)

..Many details to consider, my choice was the 405MI16 drivetrain with the XU9J4 - D6C (1.9litre 163hp) engine because it is light, durable, there is tuning parts available(intake, camshaft, exhaust, porting) and it comes with a gearbox that suit my needs...It has a Bosch EFI-system... AND it fits in a Murena.

On the minus-side :
It tilts backwards, the ideal would have been some forward tilt to help the weight distribution and to get most of the weight between the wheel axles.
It was hard to find (but I had some luck and found one with 126000km on the clock, the price was EUR1600 for a complete drivetrain with EFI and driveshafts, only missing fuel pump and TDC-sensor to get it going)
Expensive distributor cap, the price in Norway is about EUR100.


Don't let any of this restrict your choices, there are lots of drivetrains to consider, maybe you would like something from Alfa Romeo, VW/Audi, SAAB or Opel???All of these have been fitted in Murenas, and there are plenty of others waiting...

I'm sure that other users on this forum can give you more help in choosing the right drivetrain, after all, I have not installed mine yet...

Good luck, please keep on posting in this forum ! :)


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: Baggyjoe on October 19, 2004, 11:19:54 pm
This forum software has some nice features, but I find the logging system of having the last post first, and going backways through the posts to find out what was said earlier in the thread to be counter-intuitive and confusing.

Chris seems to be the only one putting a foreign engine in a Bagheera.  Everybody else is talking Murena.  Compared to the Bagheera, the Murena conversion is easy.

There is not sufficient room in the engine compartment for a turbo[in either car], due to heat soakage.  My Murena, which would have had over 120hp, tended to suffer from heat in traffic when the car was not moving.  Engine bay heated up, bad supply of cold air for the intake.  Putting in a turbo engine without some form of forced ventilation would make this problem worse.

Sound common sense to look for a small fwd engine.  Better still, get an engine and gearbox combination, with Tiptronic gearbox. This will do away with the difficulty of running the gearchange linkage all over the universe to get the shift pattern correct in the cabin.  2.0 litre GPX from a Mitsubishi FTO should work nicely, over 200 hp, very narrow angle V6.  Might not even be too difficult to fabricate the exhaust pipes.

Should work OK in a Murena, not so sure it would work in a Bagheera.  However, the proper way to do it would be like Matra did with the U8. Lengthen the chassis, and make a bigger engine box. In fact, as you are building a sports car, it should not be out of the question to retain the original Bagheera wheelbase, but lengthen the engine compartment a cm or two back into the boot space.

Moving the tank forward is a good idea on paper.  However, please be careful to fit a racing spec tank in this case.  If the original tank is up front and gets a head on collision, it will go up in a fireball.  Not worth it to sacrifice safety for speed or convenience.

Joe :)

PS, Kris, if you are doing any changes on the Bagheera engine housing, it would be a good opportunity to cut the engine top frame off a Murena and weld it on.  Would give you a lot more access to your new engine. ;)


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: Kris on November 01, 2004, 11:43:25 am
hello,

i'm here agein. i've not been here for some months now, my studies and other things made me very occupied.

i'm not the only one to mount a foreign engine in the bagheera, by a peugeot-forum i got to know a guy from southern germany whos doing the same - his advantage: he's an engineer and has all possibilities to work out the special parts necessary for such a conversion. in fact, he monuted yet a peugeot BE-5-speed-gearbox into his matra rancho.

he will do all the prototype-hardware-parts, my part is to pick out the best peugeot parts and so i made comparing diagramms of gearbox ratios, looked out for gearboxes that go together with matra hydraulic clutch system (wich exists! - BE-box was mounted in horizon and other talbots), doing the electronical job, how to do mount either jetronic or motronic injection etc. including catalysator or not ...

our projects will take some long time but i think we'll arrive where we want to go.

greetz, kris


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: Lennart Sorth on March 14, 2005, 12:00:43 am
i'm here agein.

Great to hear, I was getting concerned that you had disappeared completely

I would very much like to talk with you about XU9 JAZ motronic engines, as I am looking for a replacement for my XU9-JAK which
has suffered a failed crankshaft bearing. (repair or replace)

Regards

Lennart@matrasport.dk


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: valmet440 on August 16, 2005, 06:26:41 pm
Hi
I've finally found a Murena for sale in Sweden, and will check it out next weekend. Until then I'll begin dreaming about the future engine conversion....
Hope you don't mind me borrowing this thread for asking a couple of questions.

Like some of you I believe the sound from 6 cylinders is worth the extra weight (and conversion effort). However I cannot decide on which engine to choose.

I've seen that the Alfa V6 engine has been a popular choice, but I cannot help thinking the PRV6 would be more "right" for a Matra. However, being a 90 degree V6 it could be impossible to fit, depending on how it's packed. What are your thoughts on this?

Anyway, I do know the late PRV's (3,0 transversely mounted in XM and 605) were mated to the same ME-box as the XU10 in-line 4.... Does anyone know if this could ease the conversion?

Finally one last question - for me, choosing between the Alfa and PRV engines becomes a matter of choosing the strongest gearbox. Does anyone know how much torque the standard Alfa and Peugeot/Citroën gearboxes can take?

Thanks
/gustav


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: Will Falconer on August 17, 2005, 12:48:21 am


I've seen that the Alfa V6 engine has been a popular choice, but I cannot help thinking the PRV6 would be more "right" for a Matra. However, being a 90 degree V6 it could be impossible to fit, depending on how it's packed. What are your thoughts on this?

Having seen my Espace's 24v PRV engine stored in the back of the car while the front end was rebuilt I find it hard to  believe it would actually fit into a Murena, although a couple of prototype Murena PRV's were built shortly after Matra stopped building the car. I believe the reason they didn't reach production was because the Venturi and Alpine were already using the same engine and  that would be my question. Why not just buy an Alpine?

As far as I know only one Murena has been fitted with the Alfa engine. The owner asked me how to upgrade the brakes to cope with the weight. I could only suggest fitting a smaller engine. ;D

I don't think the gearbox is a big deal. In fitting XU9 engines to Murenas we just built composite driveshafts to match up. Presumably the Alfa gearbox is tough enough for the Alfa, the PSA gearboxes are certainly strong enough for their cars.


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: valmet440 on August 17, 2005, 12:08:15 pm
Thanks for your answer.

Why not just buy an Alpine?

The A310 V6 is more expensive than the Murena. Main reason though is I like the Matra better!

Presumably the Alfa gearbox is tough enough for the Alfa, the PSA gearboxes are certainly strong enough for their cars.

The gearbox will cope with the standard torque, allright. However I'm dreaming of tuning the engine, and than reliability could become an issue. From what I've heard the ME5 boxes are quite strong (copes with tuned 405 T16 for example). Anyone know what the Alfa box can handle?


As far as I know only one Murena has been fitted with the Alfa engine. The owner asked me how to upgrade the brakes to cope with the weight. I could only suggest fitting a smaller engine. ;D

I agree the bigger engine will probably have a negative effect on handling. I'm willing to sacrifice this just to get the "right" sound (for track days I'll use my old Formula Vee anyway).

The Alfa conversions I've seen are
* Jos Evers http://www.squadra-tuning.com/Specials/Murena_V6.htm (http://www.squadra-tuning.com/Specials/Murena_V6.htm)
* Norwegian http://home.online.no/~utinglum/matramurenav6.cfm (http://home.online.no/~utinglum/matramurenav6.cfm)
* The company CarJoy http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Murena/Conv/Alfa-V6/index.html (http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Murena/Conv/Alfa-V6/index.html)

There even seems to be a conversion "kit" available from CarJoy.

I havn't heard of any PRV conversion, though. Probably because of the space problem you're mentioning. Still it would be interesting to know if the PRV fits the Murena gearbox. Or if the newer Citroën XM ME5T boxes are similar to the original gearbox.
* Same inner joint
* Same gear changing levers
* Same mounting to chassis
* Same bolt pattern to engine


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: valmet440 on August 17, 2005, 09:06:09 pm

Having seen my Espace's 24v PRV engine stored in the back of the car while the front end was rebuilt I find it hard to  believe it would actually fit into a Murena

Will, could you by any chance compare the Murena gearbox with the one from the Espace. Do they have any similarities (if they are both manual)?


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: Will Falconer on August 18, 2005, 07:50:28 am

Having seen my Espace's 24v PRV engine stored in the back of the car while the front end was rebuilt I find it hard to  believe it would actually fit into a Murena

Will, could you by any chance compare the Murena gearbox with the one from the Espace. Do they have any similarities (if they are both manual)?

My Espace is a '99 (transverse engine) and is automatic. I think all the 97> V6's are auto.

I wouldn't recommend using the Murena gearbox wth a V6, it would definitely be a weakness.
 


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 18, 2005, 10:22:25 pm
There are two variants of PRV V6's: The old 90 degrees 12 valve V6 and the new (in Espace post 1998) 60 degrees 24 valve V6.

Traversely mounted in Espace, they are only available with automatic gearboxes.

Old PRV's pre 1996 were lontidudally mounted in Renaults and with the traditional long Renault gearbox. Maybe if you remove the middle seat and let the engine potrude into the cockpit is it possible to mount it the other way round... just a silly idea... :D

Another option would be to find a Citroen XM. See this cut-away:

http://www.citroen-ds-id.com/xm/images/XM-V6-Cutaway-50%25.jpg (http://www.citroen-ds-id.com/xm/images/XM-V6-Cutaway-50%25.jpg)


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: jos on August 23, 2005, 10:38:39 am
Good morning,

Well, I am the guy driving the Murena V6 as mentioned in Will's post below. He recommended me to fit a smaller engine ;)
Of course I continued my search for people who were willing to offer me some help. Well, now my car is equipped with 300mm discs and 4 pot callipers front. The braking and equally important, fading and feeling have been improved a lot. Later I will install a Willwood brake pressure adjuster and this winter an upgrade for the rear is planned as well, alsmost sorted by a friend of mine ;D The car's weight is 1050Kg  :)
The Alfa gearbox can easily handle the power ( in my case 232Hp on the dyno ).
In case you are seriously considering an Alfa conversion the easiest way is to contact Ruud ( Carjoy ) to get to know what is required. Judging from that you can consider what to to / search / buy yourself. It is more or less a kit now, since at least 5 are built and more to come. Also a gastank is available.

I can really recommend the Alfa conversion. The car is a blast to drive, especially if you change the suspension setup ( GAZ... ).The handling is very good and of course an Alfa V6 engine really sounds awfully good.. 8) 8) 8)

Well this is how the car looks now.

I am planning to have an outlet manifold custom made.

With kind regards,
Jos







Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: jos on August 23, 2005, 10:39:13 am
2


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: jos on August 23, 2005, 10:39:32 am
3


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: jos on August 23, 2005, 10:39:48 am
4


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: jos on August 23, 2005, 10:40:09 am
5


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: Matra_Hans on September 23, 2005, 02:09:38 pm
Hi Jos.
Interesting to hear about your brake up grade. I will be interested in hearing in more details how it has been done, incl. suppliers etc.
I am also thinking of upgrading my Murena breaks as I am preparing a 505 Turbo engine for installation in my Murena. I have just received (a copy of) a Danielson camshaft. With this cam together with increased fuel pressure (3.1 bar) and boost at 0.8 bar the engine will hopefully deliver around 220 HP and 370Nm.
At present I have a normally aspirated 2.2 engine with a Polytechnic 150 CV camshaft. Even with that engine I am often in situations where I am whishing that the Murena had some better brakes.
Regards Hans


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: Matra_Hans on September 23, 2005, 02:19:09 pm
and here a picture of my N9TE engine getting redy for a test run in the workshop.

Hans


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: Anders Dinsen on September 24, 2005, 06:36:51 pm
Even with that engine I am often in situations where I am whishing that the Murena had some better brakes.

Hans, where are you driving?  ;D


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: Matra_Hans on September 27, 2005, 12:40:23 pm
Dear Anders.
I live in the northern part of Denmark, where payments of VAT and driving within the speed limits have newer been popular.
During my daily drive to work I used to pass 2 roundabouts. My entering speed to the roundabout was 100+ km/h and my exit speed was app. 80 km/h. Quite often it happened that other motorists who were entering the roundabout did not realize that I was driving that fast and entered the roundabout in front of me. In those situations I often whished that the Murena had better brakes.
Cheers Hans


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: Anders Dinsen on September 28, 2005, 10:49:49 pm
Dear Anders.
I live in the northern part of Denmark, where payments of VAT and driving within the speed limits have newer been popular.
During my daily drive to work I used to pass 2 roundabouts. My entering speed to the roundabout was 100+ km/h and my exit speed was app. 80 km/h. Quite often it happened that other motorists who were entering the roundabout did not realize that I was driving that fast and entered the roundabout in front of me. In those situations I often whished that the Murena had better brakes.
Cheers Hans

That's really hard to understand for us in Copenhagen, where every corner has radar speed control. :P
I try to stay below the limit when I drive my new 3.0 24v Espace, fortunately it has cruise control. I guess that wouldn't really suit a Murena... There's plenty of fun in the corners in that car by the way... but that's another story. :D

Cheers,
Anders


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: hru on January 01, 2006, 06:20:02 pm
Jos,

Can you tell us a little more of upgrading the brake discs ?
Was it for all 4 wheels, or just the front ?
Which suplliers were used ?
What size alloys/tyres have you mounted on the car ?

And for the rest of the forum ? Has anybody ever examined the taxes for the V6 conversion - taxes in Denmark I mean.

Regards to all
Henrik

Well, now my car is equipped with 300mm discs and 4 pot callipers front. The braking and equally important, fading and feeling have been improved a lot. Later I will install a Willwood brake pressure adjuster and this winter an upgrade for the rear is planned as well, alsmost sorted by a friend of mine ;D The car's weight is 1050Kg  :)
The Alfa gearbox can easily handle the power ( in my case 232Hp on the dyno ).
In case you are seriously considering an Alfa conversion the easiest way is to contact Ruud ( Carjoy ) to get to know what is required. Judging from that you can consider what to to / search / buy yourself. It is more or less a kit now, since at least 5 are built and more to come. Also a gastank is available.


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: Anders Dinsen on January 02, 2006, 03:09:15 pm
And for the rest of the forum ? Has anybody ever examined the taxes for the V6 conversion - taxes in Denmark I mean.

The V6 cannot be made legal for road use in Denmark since it is not allowed to increase engine power by more than (I think) 20% when replacing the engine. Tuning of the original engine is legal as far as you can go, though.

I don't know the exact rules, but this is what I have been told.

The rules are available on http://www.fstyr.dk/sw23095.asp (http://www.fstyr.dk/sw23095.asp)  ;)


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: Matra_Hans on January 05, 2006, 07:26:48 am
It is my understanding that if a car (say a Murena V6) has been approved by the local authorities in a EU membership country and registered in that country, this car can be imported and registered in Denmark.
So much benefit from the European Common Marked.

cheers Hans


Title: Re:Matra-Conversion
Post by: hru on January 07, 2006, 06:04:21 pm
In Denmark, it is legal to switch engines etc. and thereby to increase the engine power to more than 20%. -no problems *but* it will off course be taxed.
The only question is how much........ ?

The brakes from Jos' Murena are from HI SPEC - see attached link.

www.hispecmotorsport.co.uk/index.htm

Jos, I noticed your car is for sale at www.matratekoop.nl - Looks interesting, but there is no price......