MatraSport Forum

Each model => Murena => Topic started by: Jon Weywadt on January 05, 2010, 10:45:57 pm



Title: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: Jon Weywadt on January 05, 2010, 10:45:57 pm
As I reported elsewhere I had finished installing the new stainless cooling and heating pipes. the engine had been run until warm and all the air was out of the system. But the weather had been bad, so after just a few short trips the car sat for a few weeks.

Then just before Chistmas I decided to take advantage of a sunny day and go for a ride. Turned the egnition key and it cranked a few times, sputtered but had too much choker. Second attempt didn't quite catch either. Third attempt...... nothing. The electric fuel pump buzzed, the lights worked, battery was ok, but not a sound from the starter or selenoid.

So I had to go to work in a dinky, tiny Suzuki. >:(

After Christmas I checked the starter switch, which was OK, so I jacked up the car and checked the wireing to the selenoid. It turned out to be a loose wire and a simple fix. :D

So I took the car out for a ride only to discover that it fogged up because the blower now didn't work. (It had been fine the previous time I drove the car)   >:(

Diagnostics of the circuit to the blower proved that power was Ok up to the compartment with the blower. So the blower had to come out. This happened this past weekend and it turned out that one of the brushes was stuck in grime and the commutator was burnt.

So I threw the motor end with the brushes into my ultrasound bath and cleaned it out good, then soaked the bearing in oil. While it was cleaning I clamped the motor shaft into drill stand and touched up the commutator with a fine file, followed by some polishing cloth. cleaned the groves between the contacts and assembled the motor. It now worked like a charm.

Took the opportunity to make a template of the cover plate for the blower compartment for a future stainless steel replacement  ;) but also painted the original with Hammerite.

Now assembled you would think I was ready to roll. Alas. as I refilled the sprinkler container, fluid leaked out the bottom around the rubber grommet holding the motor to the tank. >:(

So, while I try to figure out how to fix this without destroying tank or motor by prying it free (the rubber is not very pliable anymore) the car sits, nearly ready to roll. ;D

Oh well. It is snowing outside anyway and the roads are covered and slick. I would not drive it anyway until it is gone, so where did I put my sleigh. and did I feed the reindeer?? Gotta go check.

Happy New year everyone. I hope you enjoy your cars too.  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: Anders Dinsen on January 06, 2010, 05:27:40 am
I admire you for your positive attitude. Your car is really playing with you! I can recommend buying a new washer/sprinkler bottle complete with pump - Biltema has a decent one which is quite cheap. I'm passing by Biltema Malmö next week, let me know if you need anything (or want to join?)

With proper winter/snow tyres, the Murena is a great drive on slippery roads! I'm going out today :D

/Anders


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: Jon Weywadt on January 06, 2010, 09:17:07 pm
I admire you for your positive attitude. Your car is really playing with you! I can recommend buying a new washer/sprinkler bottle complete with pump - Biltema has a decent one which is quite cheap. I'm passing by Biltema Malmö next week, let me know if you need anything (or want to join?)

With proper winter/snow tyres, the Murena is a great drive on slippery roads! I'm going out today :D

/Anders
Hi Anders.
Thanks for the kind words. As much trouble as the car seems to give (and it IS sometimes disappointing not just to hop in and drive) I truely enjoy working on it. The primary reason is that, in spite of its age, it is not about to disintegrate into a pile of rust. It is not a loosing battle, as it would be with most other cars that age. :D :D
I already bought a new sprinkler from Simon, but that was a disappointment as it was not an original and less than half the volume. It still sits in my shop waiting for a headlight cleaner project. ;D The one I have now is a spare that Jan had, as my original had cracked.

/Jon.
PS. here are some pictures of the last endavour.

After drilling the pop rivets out you have to pry the plate down to swing it free (there are two rivets on top, right and left of the bolts, one left on the flange to the fender, two along the bottom in the fender well, and finally two behind the sprinkler bottle)
That exposes the heater motor
The mounting bolts are marked on the picture (10 mm wrench)
It seemed stuck, so my snake-cam showed that it was the duct holding it
Popped the connector free and out it came. Total time 20 min.
Last shot is inside the cavity where it sat. Notice the drain hole.


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: Jon Weywadt on January 06, 2010, 09:46:39 pm
I guess I should add some pictures of the motor renovation also. ;D

After unscrewing the motor assembly from the blower housing, getting the blower wheel off the axle requires holding the wheel between your knees and pound out the axle with a punch and a hammer. It is pressed onto the axle and has a spring around the plastic of the wheel holding it tight (you cannot get to the spring)
Once off, disassembling the motor revealed that the brushes were stuck in the housing and not making contact to the commutator, which is blackened as result.
After cleaning and pulling the brushes all the way back, it is possible to insert a small pin or nail from outside the housing, holding the brush back while assembling the motor. (pic 3 + 4) (The nail goes behind the loop of the wire outside the brush housing)
While cleaning, the commutator was touched up with a file and some polishing cloth. (Notice how burnt it is due to the sticking brushes. If yours runs slow, you now know why)
Don't forget to clean the groves so you don't leave filings that can short it out.
Clean the axle and lube the bearings well before assembling the motor.

Result - a motor that runs like new. Well almost new. ;)
And the whole job can be done in one afternoon.  :D


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: JV on January 06, 2010, 10:43:18 pm
Nice work and pics.


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: michaltalbot on January 07, 2010, 09:42:26 am
I realy like this work - that's what repairing is about. Not only change everything like they do it at these times in all services, but finding a reason of the problem and repairing it, great!  ;)


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: Oetker on January 10, 2010, 08:05:09 am
Nice tutorial Jon.
Helping the motor this way can make it work, however i am not a big fan for doing it this way.
If the metal bearing is not warned out to far it wi last for some time.
This motor is a weak spot in the Murena, and the air that come out the vents is a very small breeze.
Also the bearings can make the motor run slow and asking so much current that the switch burn out in the dash (real firerisk).
I am still on the lookout for something better.
On the junkyard I found a few sets from Golf II that may fit after some mods on the housing.
They give twice as much air.
Only problem is that most used Golf II airmotors are even in a worse state then the one in the Murena.
This summer I will take it out to look if I can fit something else.


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: Oskar on January 10, 2010, 10:42:58 pm
its a funny car, its like a fragile human. you must treat it well so it will stay happy :)

i took a trip to pick up some sushi in a town in sweden during summer 2008.
on the way from the store outside a big hotel with restaurant it wouldnt start. Nothing!
I had no clue what was wrong and started looking around... people gatherd and was interested in the car.
even a couple came to it and he started talking and asking if it was an old porsche. she asnt to amused ;)

but it was a loose cable to the battery and then it fired up gently and I got home just in time


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: Bart_Maztra on January 11, 2010, 06:55:32 am
On the junkyard I found a few sets from Golf II that may fit after some mods on the housing.
They give twice as much air.
Only problem is that most used Golf II airmotors are even in a worse state then the one in the Murena.
This summer I will take it out to look if I can fit something else.

It seems that older toyota fan should fit without mods. And that's japanese quality.


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: michaltalbot on January 11, 2010, 09:31:25 am
Old connectors are often problematic. Half a year ago, my Murena did the same (not even a click after turning the key) and it was only plus connector fallen away. Similar as on my old silver Murena, one day on the trip 100km far away from home, it stopped and wasn't able to start - fallen connector from ign.coil. It's because of many times demounting and connectors doesn't hold too strong.


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: Matra_Hans on January 11, 2010, 11:28:33 am

It seems that older toyota fan should fit without mods. And that's japanese quality.
[/quote]
I have done it: i.e. installed a Toyota Starlet fan in the Murena.  Result: More air through the system, the fan is silent, more powerful, more reliable.

Hans


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: Jon Weywadt on January 11, 2010, 05:51:14 pm

It seems that older toyota fan should fit without mods. And that's japanese quality.
I have done it: i.e. installed a Toyota Starlet fan in the Murena.  Result: More air through the system, the fan is silent, more powerful, more reliable.

Hans
[/quote]
Hi Hans and Bart.

Are the Tyota fans a straight swap to the original fan housing, or do you mount the housing from the Tyota too? Mine is now running silent and on all 3 speeds, but as said, it is not an impressive amount of air.

One thing to check next is the heater core. Perhaps it is clogged by dirt sucked in by the fan. There were twigs and pine needles in the compartment where the fan is mounted, so I would not be surprised.

/Jon.


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: Jon Weywadt on January 11, 2010, 05:58:41 pm
Old connectors are often problematic. ......
Hi Michael.

I have started a project to fix the primary problem with power in the Murena, namely the fuse panel.

Jesper was the one who got it started and Jan and I are now in the process of replacing the old fuses and board with modern modular ones.

I will open a new topic on the subject. Maybe later this evening after I go through the photos.

Jesper is done with his and I am at the point where I need to make the swap. But it is too da.. cold to fool with it right now.

/Jon.


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: Oetker on January 11, 2010, 06:19:17 pm
All my problems disapeared since I did this.
(http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4980/p1010397medium.jpg)
(http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/4897/p1010392medium.jpg)
(http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/8781/p1010394medium.jpg)
(http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/9124/p1010419medium.jpg)
(http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/3083/p1010420medium.jpg)
(http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/1524/p1010427medium.jpg)
(http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/570/sany0098medium.jpg)
(http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/5609/sany0099medium.jpg)
(http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/6392/sany0100medium.jpg)
(http://img110.imageshack.us/img110/7638/sany0102medium.jpg)
I drilled holes in the print for 2 rear connectors.(most current)
Put the wires true the holes and solder both sides.
It makes it very tight and no stress on the print.
The relays I ordered here.
http://cgi.ebay.nl/Set-of-4-12v-4pin-30amp-On-Off-Relays-automotive_W0QQitemZ110297513068QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Trailers_Transporters_Parts?hash=item19ae3e7c6c&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14

The rubber is a tyre from a bicycle.
(http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/1247/p1010374medium.jpg)
(http://img384.imageshack.us/img384/4782/p1010400medium.jpg)
(http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/2546/p1010403medium.jpg)
This is to make the print not to fall out if you change a fuse.


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: michaltalbot on January 11, 2010, 07:36:50 pm
Oetker: it's amazing! Lot of work, but now You can be sure, that it will be working reliably next 25 years ;) It's normal that, after all those years, it must be worn and affected by corrosion. My company car, Skoda Octavia, is only 2 years old and I have allready had some problems with ESP, electronic servo steering and ABS, due to rainy weather few months ago. After 25 years, all todays modern cars will be out of order, because of old electronics, but our Murenas will be still driving (after "easy" repair like Yours, Oetker) ;D


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: Oetker on January 11, 2010, 07:57:31 pm
The fuse panel and connectors are the worst parts in our Murena's and after that the wiring loom in the engine compartment.
It is not completely finished yet, but already some strange faults disappeared.
The wiring for the engine can be made more simple.
I dump the testconnector, and then you need very little wiring for the engine.
The testconnector is of no use.
No garage has the equipment to do something with it.
Yes, this kept me busy for a while, but I like this to be reliable.


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: Jon Weywadt on January 11, 2010, 08:02:38 pm
All my problems disapeared since I did this.

A great job Oetker.  :)

The only thing is that it retains the old style fuses and they are unreliable in my oppinion. But you sure reduced the problems. ;D

Jesper, Jan and I have chosen a more difficult method, but it does provide for new fuses. I just started a topic on that.

Regards.
Jon.


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: Oetker on January 11, 2010, 08:15:48 pm
When I started this job I was prepared to change the fuseholders to, but they gave me no problem so far.
I found that some Peugeots have similair fuseboards with better fuseholders.
(http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/668/p1010811.jpg)
(http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/3710/p1010810z.jpg)
(http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/6065/p1010812n.jpg)
(http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/7046/p1010810k.jpg)
The print is not totaly the same, but the fuseholders are stronger.
I was planning to swap them on the original panel, but my panel was in pretty good shape, so I didn't.
Maybe in a later stadium.


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: michaltalbot on January 11, 2010, 08:20:43 pm
The testconnector is of no use.
No garage has the equipment to do something with it.

This connector is good for, for example, to have plus pole when setting pre-ignition.
It's the same as at old Renault 21 or 25, some garages still have the diagnostic for this connector. I checked it with my SX Tagora.


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: Oetker on January 11, 2010, 09:22:39 pm
Yep, but you can dump much wires if you get rid of it.
In the past 2 years it was of no use for me.
The only wires that have to cross the engine are.
Startwire
+L and +  to the alternator
Carbvalve 1 wire

The rest of the wiring is around module and coil and is located around the right side of the enginebay.
I like to bring coil and and module higher in the bay to make it easy access.


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: suffolkpete on February 05, 2010, 08:20:57 pm
Quote from Bart_Maztra on 11 January 2010
Quote
It seems that older toyota fan should fit without mods. And that's japanese quality.
Do you happen to have more details, Bart?  Such as year and model of Toyota?  My fan motor has just burnt out and I think I need a replacement.


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: Jon Weywadt on April 20, 2010, 02:59:01 pm

It seems that older toyota fan should fit without mods. And that's japanese quality.
I have done it: i.e. installed a Toyota Starlet fan in the Murena.  Result: More air through the system, the fan is silent, more powerful, more reliable.

Hans
[/quote]

My heater blower repair is turning out to be short lived. :(
The problem is that the blower wheel does not want to stay in place and I hessitate to glue it onto the motor shaft, because I would not be able to perform further repairs on the motor.

So Hans, what year Toyota Starlet did you get a fan from? ??? ??? Rather than continuing to repair the old fan (much fun as it is ;) ) I would like to get a new, reliable fan.


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: Matra_Hans on April 20, 2010, 04:59:06 pm
Hi
Searching at Wikipedia I think it must be a 60 Series Starlet which was  in production from  1978 to October 1984. So such a donor car migth be hard to find today.
I changed the fan more than 10 years ago most likely in 1996 or 1997 at that time old Starlets were easy to find.

Hans


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: Jon Weywadt on August 05, 2010, 11:07:44 pm
The joy never stops. ;D

Today I drove to my friend Jan and on the way there I thought the gear shift lever seemed loose. I thought it might be the teflon wrapping I put around the ball that had worn out.

Alas, it turned out to be the sleve above the slot for the reverse lock-out pin, that had broken off. While ivestigating it closer, the spring pushed the lever completely out of the remaining piece.

I removed the spring and tried to drive it, being careful not to use great force. But after a few shifts the pieces on either side of the slot, spread out and the shifter could not be used.

I used a pair of pliers to squeze them back in place and placed a hose clamp around it, so it could not spread out again and to hold the lever in place.

I made it home and removed the gear shift lever. the photos show the piece that broke off.

After cleaning the pieces, I applied flux and brazed the pieces back together with silver. First I had wrapped the nylon ball im aluminium tape, because I knew it wouuld melt, no matter how careful I was.

When cooled off I removed the aluminium tape and found that the nylon ball was mostly intact, though not completely round. So a bit of filing and sanding (the aluminium tape stuck in the nylon of course) I wrapped it in a new sheet of Teflon, applied grease to the pieces and assembled it all again.

It now works "like new", well almost. :D


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: roy4matra on August 15, 2010, 07:15:18 pm
The joy never stops. ;D

Today I drove to my friend Jan and on the way there I thought the gear shift lever seemed loose...

Alas, it turned out to be the sleve above the slot for the reverse lock-out pin, that had broken off. While investigating it closer, the spring pushed the lever completely out of the remaining piece...

Jon (and others) this split gear lever on early models has always been fragile and prone to breaking and it is not necessary.  Simply remove the detent plate at the bottom that requires the gear lever to be pushed down to get reverse and weld the lever up solid.  Then the system will be like the later models and more reliable.  The gearbox itself has no requirement for this detent selection.


Regarding your comment on another thread, about the wiring and the current through the ignition switch, the window motor currents do not go through the ignition switch.  The ignition switch powers up the fourth relay on the board and the motors are powered from the relay.  (other three relays are: 1 for dip, 1 for main, and 1 for aux. driving lights)

Roy


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: Jon Weywadt on August 15, 2010, 09:34:47 pm
Jon (and others) this split gear lever on early models has always been fragile and prone to breaking and it is not necessary.  ---  The gearbox itself has no requirement for this detent selection.


Regarding your comment on another thread, about the wiring and the current through the ignition switch, the window motor currents do not go through the ignition switch.  The ignition switch powers up the fourth relay on the board and the motors are powered from the relay.  (other three relays are: 1 for dip, 1 for main, and 1 for aux. driving lights)

Roy

I was wondering about that when I replaced the second gear synchro this summer. It seemed that there was a reverse gear detent in the box, that should prevent you from going from 5th. straight to to reverse. However, I did not investigate it closely as I was busy looking for the pin and spring. They were not easy to hold in place during assembly and popped out 3 times before I got it. :D

About the ignition switch. I am relieved to hear that. Jan and I had measured the power consumed by the windows and the blower. We missed that the windows go through relays. However, the blower does not, and if I remember right, we measured it to appx 15 amps on step 3. As I wrote in another post it nearly caught on fire last sunday, so it will also go through relays as fast as I can make the mod.

/Jon


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: Jon Weywadt on August 15, 2010, 09:48:40 pm
Well one more for the joy of these old cars.

Last year I bought a new speeder pedal from Simons as the other one broke at the hinge. The new one broke yesterday.  >:(

Today I then fabricated a hinge out of a 0.8mm piece of stainless steel and popriveted last years speeder pedal to the hinge.

I found a suitable hinge pin (plug from an old tent) and curved the plate around the pin, using a hammer, a steel block and the bench vice. Once each plate had been folded around the pin, I cut the notches to lock them into a hinge. The pin was bent so it was locked in place by the end of the hinge. The hinge was then popriveted to the old speeder pedal with washers on the back side. Back in the car it now works perfectly.  ;D

Not sure how long pop rivets will hold up. So one future project is to make the whole pedal out of metal and integrate the hinge into the design.

Below are some photos of this afternoons project.


Title: Re: Oh, the joy of owning an old Murena ;-)
Post by: Oetker on August 17, 2010, 12:20:04 pm
Exelent solution for the problem.
If the pedals are so weak, I find myself something as a spare.