MatraSport Forum

Engine use honda k20a from a civic type R 2.0  using the 6 speed gearbox, i found some throttle bodys that bolt straight to the cylinder head not using an inlet manifold gaining some engine bay room for an cold air in =let via an air box. i used hydra ems mangment becouse it will run the vtec valve. the engine ang gearbox is 69kg lighter the the 2.2 engine and gearbox.

Very impressive!  :)
Too bad such a swap would be illegal in Denmark.  
May I enquire into how you made the gear linkage? and what parts you used? :)

Impressive indeed!!

Hi Krede. With all else that we do to these cars, why would this engine be illegal in Denmark? ???

I too am interested in where you got the cables you use for the gear linkage. From the pictures it looks like there is just one cable for each movement (back/forth and side-to-side) That will require rather stiff cables and sleves, so what brand are they?

Too much power.
The practical upper powerlimit of a Murena 2.2 is 170hp. Any more than that, and you would have to get a Tüv or similar approval... which is just too expensive to be an option.
And yes.. that goes for the Alfa v6 conversion too (180+hp if I am not mistaken). 
By the way. Have anybody heard if njesper has gotten his approved yet?

The most important is how did You made the connection of axle-shafts?

Looks like a very professional job, not for the fainted hearts.

quote Krede
--------------
Too much power.
The practical upper powerlimit of a Murena 2.2 is 170hp
=====================================
Maybe it is possible to limit it in the software temporary.
I like it, looks good.
Very reliable engine.

No... you would never be allowed to "detune" an engine in order to get it approved.
If it produces 200hp in the honda, that is what they will use as the power figure.

I hope that Anders won't run into trouble with the Holbay cam (that I also want to install) If I am not mistaken it could give it 184 HP (or perhaps I am confusing it with a Politecnic engine)

But I also want to change mine to injection instead of the carb. Will that cause raised eyebrows?  ???

Though I doubt that they will spot such modifications as a hot camshaft, In theory yes.. 170 is still the absolute max power.
Throttle bodies are illegal too unless you can provide documentation from the manufacturer, at least in theory. But this last bit is more minded on newer cars... at least I hope so...because I run TB's and efi on my Murena :)

It's terrible what all is illegal in your country  ??? Why is legal 170PS and 180 is illegal? How thay will find how much PS do you have?

Well my friend. The answer to your question is two fold .

1) Safety. By law you are allowed to increase power by no more than 20%. It does not matter whether you achieve this by tuning the existing engine, og by swapping it for a more powerful one. Any form of forced induction that incorporates a waste gate is considered to exceed 20% no matter what.!
There are exceptions. If ,say, your car is made in a model with IDENTICAL brakes suspension etc. as yours, but with a more powerful engine. You are allowed to fit this engine to your car. But if its more than a 20% increase in power, you have to pay a "new" tax on the vehicle.... which makes it much more sensible to sell your car and buy the more powerful instead.

Though I hate to say it... I kinda agree with this rule..... well in spirit at least. I've seen lots of cars with standard brakes/suspension/transmission a hugely engine under the bonnet, and an idiot at the steering wheel. 

Also It should be noted that from 1984 onwards it becomes nearly impossible to get anything approved due to emission requirements.The problem being that YOU need to provide the documentation that your engine meets the requirements= too expensive.

2) Money, Money, Money. Since cars are so expensive in Denmark, some would save some money buy the 1.6, and swap for a bigger engine as mentioned above.

Hope that answers your question...  :) 

Krede: thanks for explanation, but...
1) idiot behind the steering wheel could kill mother with children also in car with 25kW. There are cars with good suspension/brakes as BMW, Mercedes, Murena (really no difference if 170 or 190PS), etc. and there are old cars with very bad properties as Skoda 120, all American cars (and often with 300+ PS), VW Beetle, etc. which are dangerous with their engine and after 20% increase, they are undriveable.
2) what if I will make documentation with small jets in carburetors and after aproovement I will change them + camshaft + exhaust, who and how will control my real power each ride?
3) look at all those accidents, it's so easy to speak about speed - we can simply controll it and say what is under/above the limit, but easy in this case = wrong. Much bigger problem is that there is a lot of people who aren't able to drive (unable to see everything at one moment, unable to make the right reaction for every situation, atc.) or aren't paying full attention to driving, I'm not speaking about alcohol...  >:(

The system of lowering the speed in GB is the worst way. They say 50km/h in town is too much, they will squeeze it to 30km/h and we will have less of accidents. After some time they will decide that 20km/h is more safe... and at least the safest is to stop driving at all ::) I can see it also here. First it was 60km/h, now 50km/h and when they mounted lot of automatic radar controls, 80% of drivers is driving cca 40km/h (for sure) and is it safer? No! Because when You look into these cars, drivers are eating, drinking, reading newspapers, doing make-up, etc. - because driving doesn't require their attention.

Much better way is to educate good drivers, but I understand that it is too complicated, much easier is to measure the speed  ::) and set the limit for power increase - what after all I wrote - seems that is not a solution for safety.

Hi Darren,

Excellent choice of lightweight modern engine transplant, with the perfect layout for the Murena if I might say. My neighbour with her nice red Honda Civic Type R (which she foolishly let me inspect closely recently) may well be in for a shock one morning!  ;D

Err..... I think you should come clean now and tell the world what the actual power output actually is!!!!!

Can't wait to see it in the flesh and be taken for a blast.

Cheers,

Graham

I totally agree...if 12 years in the army has taught me anything it is that you cannot underestimate how stupid young men can be.!!
But not having a 200kw car is at least a beginning.

They have no way of controlling that. But neither can they stop you if you install a different engine... or drive too fast when no one is watching. But both things are still illegal.

Speed kills.... (well its the sudden absence of speed that does it really). If everybody kept to the speed limit there would be fewer accidents... I have no doubt.


Totally agree

Regading hov much power a Murena can take:
I talked a few years back to a guy who had a turbo charged Murena 2.2.
For track days he increased the turbo pressure and then he had 300 + HP.
That power level could deform part of the chassis wher the engine mounting were fixed!!

Hans

oo that was a good looking conversion.
ill bet it sounds and goes like a dream :)

how have you sorten out exhaust and silencer?

Hi Darren.

Please tell us what kind of cables you used for the gear shift and where they are sold. I would love to replace the wobbley linkage in my Murena with cables. But I thought it would be necessary to use opposing cables in each direction to create a pulling motion. Obviously your cables are stiff enough to also push the gear selector.

Kind regards.
Jon.

+1

My other car is a Lotus Europa.  A number of people on the Lotus list have used the cable change setup from a Toyota MR2.  apparently there are two different types of cables used by the MR2.  I can do some searching through the Europa knowledgebase (about 90,000 entries) and post what I find here if people are interested.

I have also heard of people adapting the steering cables from a small boat with an outboard motor.  A single cable both pushes and pulls the outboard motor and they can be made up to any length.

regards
Ron Murrell
Sydney

This then may be of general interest regarding the gearbox control cables.

http://www.rdb93.co.uk/

I didn't think about marine applications, but that is an excellent source. Check out these Mercury cables. The prices seem reasonable and if they are able to push/pull a 50HP outboard, my guess is they will push/pull the Murena gear selector. I am definitely going to try after I measure how long they need to be.

http://www.marineparts-24.de/dk/B-dstyringer-motorkontrol/Motor-Fjernbetjeninger/Kontrolkabler/Mercury-Mariner-op-til-50-HP/

Sorry Krede, I have to comment this.

Actually in DK, if you have a pre 1983 car (emissions), you can tune the engine as much as you like as long as you use the original head.
You can install a turbo, compressor or NOX, but you can not use eg. a ROC 16V head.
As I know, the 2,2 turbo head is identical to the standard one - this can be used.

If you install a new powerplant, 142 HP (170 for the S) is the limit.
Exceeding this limit requires approval form the manufacturer - or comprehensive testing by the authorities.
Politecnic used to have a traditional tune set with cam and Webers claiming 184 HP.

But whatever you do, do not put in a Toyota engine system ;D

the exhaust exits the same side as the orignal , one off exhaust manifold , the drive shafts are one off race spec and made to order

Well done Darren,
Cant wait to have a drive!
 I used the same supplier for my gearchange cables too!
For everyone else.......... gearchange cables are available on ebay.co.uk in various lengths from around £40 each.
Have just finished repairing the driveshafts on the 'Matra-Ford' Murena!
Goes very well now!!
Tim

Hi Darren.

Could you send a picture that shows how the cables attach to the gearshifter under the car.

I am VERY impressed with the job you have done here  :) and sick that it is not legal in Denmark. :(

I did get inspired though, by the cable gear shift linkage. So I have purchased a pair of marine control cables for a 50HP outboard engine (from www.marineparts-24.de at only 30€ each). They are definitely able to do the job, but I need some idea of how best to attach them to the gear shift lever.

I talked to my friend, Jan, about the cables you use and he told me that as far as he knew the Honda is equipped with cable gear linkage. So we assume you just transferred the assembly from the Honda to your Murena. Are we right?

Best regards.

Jon.

PS. better check your engine mounts. On your second photo there is a nut missing on the bolt through the engine mount. A pity if the engine "fell" out. ;D