MatraSport Forum

Each model => Espace => Topic started by: Trolkar on March 22, 2010, 08:31:42 am



Title: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Trolkar on March 22, 2010, 08:31:42 am
Hi! - I have a small engine problem. When the engine is slightly warmer than cold, after it has run into 2-5 minutes it starts to shake during weak acceleration. Given a little more gas "shakes" the entire car, but given full throttle it "shakes a few times" and then goes fine for a while.

After 30 minuttes or longer, the engine runs well.
I have replaced the temperature sensor but still same problem.

Any ideas?


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: renaultbiler on March 22, 2010, 08:20:56 pm
Are the spark plugs old ? Coil pack might be the problem aswell....

How did your autobox story end ??


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: marko ucha on March 23, 2010, 02:58:19 am
I have the same problem with my car....but all the time in last 2 days....what should I do...? Spark plags OK, coils OK,TP sensor replaced..... TDC cleaned, now it is time for MAP, an TEMPERATURE sensors.......misfire is there all the time! What is the problem? :'(


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Trolkar on March 23, 2010, 07:21:32 am
Are the spark plugs old ? Coil pack might be the problem aswell....

How did your autobox story end ??

Hi Renaultbiler!

The spark plugs are?!?! - Well, i don't really now for sure! - But the engine has ran 240.000 km, and therefore i am replacing them next monday.
Any good ideas for how to replace the spark plugs in a easy way?

Coil pack?!? - What is that? Is it "distrubutator" for the spark plugs? - How to i check those?

Haven't i really not responded about my gearbox??! - I'll do it later on! - The story ended almost happy :-)


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Trolkar on March 23, 2010, 07:24:49 am
I have the same problem with my car....but all the time in last 2 days....what should I do...? Spark plags OK, coils OK,TP sensor replaced..... TDC cleaned, now it is time for MAP, an TEMPERATURE sensors.......misfire is there all the time! What is the problem? :'(

I feel with you! - These misfires are a pain in the a...

There are NO errors on my computer,  and therefore the simple ? is = Where to look? - What to do?

Hopefully those wonderfull helpers in this forum can give os a useful hint.


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Trolkar on March 23, 2010, 08:30:13 am
While we are talking spark plugs...

My Mitsubishi runs best with NGK. If I use Bosch, the engine revs up quickly, but sounds more "rough" when idle.

Are there any spark plugs that fits this engine better than other?


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: renaultbiler on March 23, 2010, 10:25:23 am
The coil pack is the black tripple coil mounted above the front cylinder row spark plugs, its this one that produses high voltage for all 6 spark plugs! Make sure its not moisture below it, in the spark plug pipes.

The genuine spark plugs on this engine is high interval NGK platinum - very expencive and have the same interval as the cambelt, 120.000km.

I run on BERU UXF79P (ULTRA-X platin) spark plugs as they are much cheaper BUT DESPITE THAT has proven more reliable in this car than NGK by several owners, and i am very happy with them aswell.

The exchange is not easy, but i can be done without lowering the engine as supposed to - remember it is designed to be done on the cambelt service anyhow.

You find step by step pictures on how to replace them (with english notes) on my forum: http://www.renaultbiler.no/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2736

Please tell us about your gearbox repair history :)


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: jack daniels on March 23, 2010, 10:53:20 am
regarding spark plugs, there have been some stories in the newspaper recently about some fantastic new plugs that will give a much better spark, more power and improved fuel economy.
      The downside however was that the plugs ceramic insulation was under-dimentioned causing the spark to short circuit to the motor block instead of in the combustion chamber.
      In a few cases the unignited fuel mix exploded in the catalytic converter instead causing varying degrees of damage to the vehicles.

so, a conclusion can be to stick to a well known and well proven plug. A motorcycle I had years ago seemed to consume champion and NGK but ran well on Bosch.
   Also, not all plugs come with the correct gap so if you choose one that is precisely set  by the factory then that can also give a longer life than if you have to manipulate the plug gap yourself.


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Trolkar on March 23, 2010, 11:59:53 am
I run on BERU UXF79P (ULTRA-X platin) spark plugs as they are much cheaper BUT DESPITE THAT has proven more reliable in this car than NGK by several owners, and i am very happy with them aswell.

Where can i get those spark plugs in DK? - Or even S/N?

I love Google, but in this case - Totally failure!


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: jack daniels on March 24, 2010, 08:14:03 pm

www.mc-butikken.dk/search/UXF79P/         98kr.


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Trolkar on March 26, 2010, 10:08:11 am
Great! - Thx!
a sixpack is on its way :-)


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Trolkar on March 31, 2010, 09:22:14 pm
Hi all!

Home from a long day with my great big brother.

Today, the car was given a 240.000 km's service. - Incl. new spark plugs. (BERU), oil, oil filter, petrol filter... Everything, incl. cleaning of air intake and a new petrol hose (!) There was as small leak just under the throttle cabel! (Haven’t given the gasoline smell a though, since my rear exhausts is in need of a replacement, but haven’t been able to find a replacement yet. (Awaiting Anders’s exhausts change  :D )).

- The car did drove home very well, but the big test is tomorrow. - I really hope the misfire is gone!

Bye the way, the hole operation was done in 7 hours. An none of us is familiar with working on a Renault .
(The leaking petrol hose took us about 30 min’s to locate)

/Troels


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Trolkar on April 02, 2010, 04:53:13 pm
Well, the 10 km trip home from the garage yesterday was a small success. But mainly because I drove at very different speed while testing the brakes, acceleration and so on.

But today, on a trip for 2 x 60 the happy felling went to a very sad feeling.
The engine is still having problems – More than ever 

Before, the “misfire” only came when the engine was slightly warmer than “cold”, and stops when engine temperature reach normal.

Now, there are problems all the time. – The engine often hesitate and sounds like it misfire / stalls when accelerating a bit more than “very slow”. (The accelerations is slower than average acceleration – Reference = The other cars on the road).

When driving at 50, 60, 70, 80 and 90 km/t with the cruise control on, there is no problem, and accelerating “Flat out” also works fine. (0-66 mph / 0-100 km/t about 10 seconds)  – Running the engine in “n” and slowly accelerate, there are NO signs of stalling / misfire. – But if I “quickly” gives full throttle in idle, the engine almost “die” / “blurbs” / “drowns” before it starts to accelerate. – And it is not accelerating quickly. Sounds very slow… (I can only reference to my Mitsubishi – Revs up in under 1 second). It takes 2-4 seconds for the engine to rev up and about 5 seconds before reaching “a high rev”

It consumes 13,5 – 14,5 liters of gasoline for every 100 km. (While driving around 80-90 km/t)

The old spark plugs was “black”, but nothing I normally would worry about. – But, when changing I noticed, that under the coil pack, 2 of the spark plug pipes earlier has been moist, and the 3 has some “oil”.

The CLIP says NO error (except for the Oxygen sensor)

Any advice / ideas?


/Troels


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 03, 2010, 07:09:53 am
It sounds like you have a problem somewhere. Can you post photos of the tips of the old plugs? I would not accept any kind of fouling on a fuel injected car - only a light tan colour. Were they all the same? The fuel consumption is definetely too high.

When you had the CLIP on the engine, did you check the readouts from all the sensors? You mention you have replaced the water tempereture sensor, but don't mention other sensors.

Does it change the pattern if you use high octane fuel, e.g. 98 or Shell V-power?

Does the pattern change with weather?

My first suspect would be the ignition coil pack. If it has any kind of rust on the cores of the coils, then replace it immediately. Moisture becomes trapped inside the cores and effectilvely creates a new winding which "short circuits" the coil. This one was defective on mine (I broke off the plastic corner to show how bad it was):

(http://gallery.dinsen.net/d/4950-2/DSC_1279.JPG)

Second suspect would be cam timing. If the timing belt is replaced without taking the engine out, the cams cannot be locked and it's very easy to get them misaligned. I know of at least one case where this happened. It can be very difficult to detect, but the engine will not sound correctly and of course not run correctly either.

Third suspect would be ECU wiring. Put the CLIP on when the engine misfires to check all sensor readings.

Fourth suspect would be a leaking injector, but that would have shown with one of the plugs being much darker than the others.

Oh yes, I've also heard of one whose catalytic converter had collapsed inside. They can do so with age and if the engine runs too rich, like yous apparantly does. It can end up blocking the exhaust completely!

So there's a few things to check! :)
Also, feel free to pop by this weekend with me to compare with our car - I'm back from France again now!

/Anders



Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Trolkar on April 03, 2010, 12:14:31 pm
Hi Anders!

Welcome home! – Hope the Espace took you and your family for a great ride!

I’m sorry, but my car is no longer “drivable”. After the service and a small trip the engine is hesitating so much, that driving is almost impossibly. – On less accelerating at full speed all the time.

The spark plugs is maybe already at the scrap yard, but the color was the same on all 6. (But I’ll try to find the spark plugs at the garage)

Using cheap (JET-95) fuel or 99 (Shell v-power) makes no difference, and the weather have no influence.

The engine has run about 8.000 km since timing belt replacement, and when in idle it runs perfect.

I think replacement of the coil pack is the next step to get further. – If I’m right, it is still the original coil packs, so why not change to a new set. Where do I get these cheap? – Don’t think I’m interested in buying used parts, since the replacement is so hard (takes long time) to do.

/Troels


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 03, 2010, 12:49:34 pm
Hi Troels

The trip was great and safe, the car drove perfectly!

Sorry to hear that the car has stopped completely now... I've got a spare (only used a year or so) coil pack here that you can borrow to check.

/Anders


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 03, 2010, 12:55:51 pm
But I bet it's your catalytic converter that has collapsed. I'm thinking so because the car has gradually gone from not good, to worse, to completely dead now. Try removing it and take a look inside. The contents can be pushed out with a rod. If you're buying a new one, let's get two as I'll be needing a new one in a year or two (rust):

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390068571365&

/Anders


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: renaultbiler on April 05, 2010, 08:49:53 am
What about the gearbox ? Are the problems mainly on low rpm and requesting high torque ?
You still havent returned with your gearbox story YET, and from my point this symptoms could very well be gearbox related, bear in mind that an automatic transmistion works along the engine electronically aswell. So if you got an overhauled gearbox with warranty - use it before it expires.

If you and Anders meet up, perhaps trying Anders coil pack is an idea to either solve or discharge that (should be harmless for both of you)

Engine computer VS fault codes is never fool proof, but without any indications it might sound like most important sensors etc are okay.


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Trolkar on April 08, 2010, 10:53:48 pm
But I bet it's your catalytic converter that has collapsed.

Hi Anders!

The catalytic converter seems fine. - When blowing air into the converter with an "inverted vacuum cleaner" the air passes through just fine. – So I don’t think that’s the problem.

I think it is either the coil pack or some vacuum errors. – I have found a “box” that says “tik tik tik” and apparently is missing a vacuum hose. – I’ll take a picture of It tomorrow.

The fault is very mysterious. For 2 days, the car has been able to deliver and pickup my daughters at their daycare, but always with serious misfire on some parts of the trip, and no problems at all on some other parts of the trip. – But there is no “standard” for the misfire. – Except, that the misfire is mainly on acceleration. Either at slow ( 0 -50 km/t) or “normal” (50 – 80 km/t) speed.

/Troels


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Trolkar on April 08, 2010, 10:57:22 pm
What about the gearbox ? Are the problems mainly on low rpm and requesting high torque ?

The gearbox is fine… I think?!?! – The problems are only when accelerating.

You still havent returned with your gearbox story YET

To night is the night! - I'm just not used to write in UK, so it takes a little time...



Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 09, 2010, 06:22:11 am
Ok, so I lost my bet.  >:(    ;D

Coil pack is next. Give me a call and you can try my spare!

/Anders


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Trolkar on April 09, 2010, 07:27:17 pm
Thx a lot Anders!

But I have already placed a order at my local garage. - Don't know the price, but it can't be bad to get a new one anyway...

I'm a bit tirred of "small errors" al the time on the car... It must be possibly to solve all the errors, bit by bit.


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Trolkar on April 09, 2010, 07:52:56 pm
Btw, the engine is now making "misfire" in "N"...


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: renaultbiler on April 10, 2010, 09:37:16 am
Note that below the coil (mounted to the coil) it is some rubber extentions, they dont come with the coil and are sold separately. These might be a good idea to replace aswell to prevent misfire if there have ever been water down there.


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Trolkar on May 14, 2010, 11:37:21 pm
A small up-date..

The engine is still not running correctly....

The ignition coil pack is changed, every filter is changed, catalytic converter tested with another, new spark plugs... Almost everything that I and my mechanic can think of. Timingbelt is checked.

The engine is normally running very smootly, but "not as fast and "powerfull" as what you would expect of an V6.
When given full throttle in "N", the engine revs up, but first after 1-1½ sec of hesitating (Sounds like it is drowning). After that, it spins up just fine, but sometimes it misfires all the time until it reached almost max speed. (I quess 1.000 rpm before fuel cutting).

Where are going to change the spark plugs and the wires again in the weekend. - Any other ideas?


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: jack daniels on May 15, 2010, 12:48:04 am
the fuel.
 Are you still running on the same tank of fuel, or have you filled up several times since the initial problem?


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: renaultbiler on May 15, 2010, 09:37:00 am
There is a MAP sensor behind the inlet manifoil, worth a shot. Its a Bosch part and can be bought cheaper outside Renault.

Any fault codes on it ?


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Trolkar on May 15, 2010, 12:57:23 pm
the fuel.
 Are you still running on the same tank of fuel, or have you filled up several times since the initial problem?


Running mainly (90% of the time) on Shell unleaded 95. - The rest of the time it runs on "JET".
It is the 3 tank... But Shell has changed from "normal 95" to "fuel save". But it can only effect the last tank.


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Trolkar on May 15, 2010, 01:04:23 pm
There is a MAP sensor behind the inlet manifoil, worth a shot. Its a Bosch part and can be bought cheaper outside Renault.

Any fault codes on it ?

Hmm.. Haven't seen that. - Do you have a picture, or a guidance? - It is damm hard to reach and see the back of the engine.

There are no errors when tested. - And Renault Kalundborg can't see anything wrong on the computer while driving and the engine hesistate. - They can feel it, but don't messure it.

The rear silencer is pretty much scrap. - I have welded it together. Can it be because of the changed pressure in the exchaust? (There were no silencematerial left in the silencer)


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 15, 2010, 01:22:52 pm
I have a spare map sensor for you if you want to try, but if the Renault mechanics don't get an error from it, I doubt it's the reason.

/Anders


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Trolkar on May 15, 2010, 01:34:19 pm
I have a spare map sensor for you if you want to try, but if the Renault mechanics don't get an error from it, I doubt it's the reason.

/Anders

Hmm... What about the "front water temperature sensor" - That was causing the engine to just stop, and afterwards hard to start. - Here, the computer don't gave an error... But you was right! - Changing the sensor, and that error was gone...
Could it be the same at this point?


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 15, 2010, 01:45:16 pm
Quote
Hmm... What about the "front water temperature sensor" - That was causing the engine to just stop, and afterwards hard to start. - Here, the computer don't gave an error... But you was right! - Changing the sensor, and that error was gone...
Could it be the same at this point?

Sure, the computer can only tell about errors which are obvious to it. I'd think, however, that a MAP sensor fault would be easier to detect than a sensor mis-read.

Could there be any air leaks in the manifold? You must have had it off the engine a few times now.

But since you've been through literally everything, I think you need to check the valve timing. You say the timing belt has been checked, but are you certain the timing is right? It is easy to get it wrong if the engine wasn't taken out when the belt was replaced, since it's not possible to lock the cams with the engine still in-situ.

I know of at least one case, where this has been a problem. And that had even been serviced by Renault. There's no easy way to do the check, I'm afraid, except to take the engine out and redo the belt.

Colour of the tips of the plugs may give an indication, though. There are seperate cams front and rear banks, so one could be right and the other wrong, so you need to check all six. Mark the plugs where they come from and take good photos of the tips with a good camera able to focus in close distance - it might tell us something.

The car I mentions above was fixed by Autohjørnet in Espergærde. Their mechanic Torben might be able to recognise the problem if he takes your car for a test drive.

/Anders


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: renaultbiler on May 15, 2010, 05:51:00 pm
Hmm.. Haven't seen that. - Do you have a picture, or a guidance? - It is damm hard to reach and see the back of the engine.
http://renaultbiler.no/forum/postgallery.php?pid=3924&filename=008.jpg


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Trolkar on May 22, 2010, 10:20:09 pm
Hmm.. Haven't seen that. - Do you have a picture, or a guidance? - It is damm hard to reach and see the back of the engine.
http://renaultbiler.no/forum/postgallery.php?pid=3924&filename=008.jpg

A brand new "non Renault" but Bosch has been mounted... No difference...
The engine dosen't hesitate that much when the weather is hot... - Above 22 Celcius.
But is is "slow" when accelerating. The first 1 or 2 sec, it sounds like the engine is "choked"


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Trolkar on May 29, 2010, 08:53:54 am
Hi too all!

Almost every electrical connections on the engine is now cleaned and "Silicon-Greasy".

Result? - Absolute nore more "hesitating" and "shaky drive. - But i still don't know where the power is.
0-96 km/t takes about 25 sec. (Speeder fully pressed down, but the kick down is not pressed)

http://188.183.6.22/Troels/0-100.mp4

Any good advice? - There are NO errors on the computer.

This video shows a test drive without any exchaust at all. (An old cat is "cut" 2 cm after the lamdba sond) an the engine is still exstremly slow in the "buttom" - After about 4-5000 rpm (I think) the engine starts to move...

http://188.183.6.22/Troels/Test.mp4

Please help me!!!! - ANY, and I do meen ANY respons is needed!


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 29, 2010, 06:10:36 pm
Great to hear your engine is running better!

Try pushing the throttle to the bottom, including the kick-down button... if you don't tell the engine and geargox to go FAST, then it won't. The engine/gearbox is generally tuned for comfortable driving, except if you hit the "3" button on the gearbox and/or use the kick-down button liberally. That should allow it to spring to life!!

/Anders


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Trolkar on May 30, 2010, 09:08:01 am
Great to hear your engine is running better!

Try pushing the throttle to the bottom, including the kick-down button..

That only results in a engine that stalls.
In "N" it "chokes" and then takes the throttle slowly, but in "D" the engine just stall.
When driving in "1" and just cruising (Engine in idle, speed around 4-6 km/t) and then quickly pressing the throttle more than 80% down (Slightly before the "kickdown" the engine stalls.


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: renaultbiler on May 30, 2010, 11:06:00 am
lack of air or lack of fuel....or possible it gets foreign air from a faulty gasket or something, did this occur after replacing spark plugs ? Try spraying start spray on different places around the manifoil to see if the engine idles up


Title: Re: Engine problems, 3.0 V6 - 1999
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 30, 2010, 02:48:37 pm
That only results in a engine that stalls.

:o

I don't think the problem is an airleak if idle is good. Idle would be quite unstable with an airleak of any size. Have you checked the fuel supply (rate and pressure)? I seem to remember you had a fuel leak around the injectors - is the completely cured?

/Anders