MatraSport Forum

Each model => Murena => Topic started by: Jon Weywadt on July 16, 2010, 11:48:19 am



Title: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Jon Weywadt on July 16, 2010, 11:48:19 am
Hi guys.
I planned on using my vacation to replace the 2. gear synchro ring, but I am stuck. I have the gear box on the table. the 5th gears off, the bell housing off the main gears and looking at the gears. But I am unsure of how to proceed.

I have the shop manual, but either I don't understand the German or it is assuming that I know something bout gear boxes, that I don't. >:(

I would have thought that there was a retaining ring holding the gears onto the shafts. I can see that I have to remove the 3./4. idler assembly off the secondary shaft, in order to start removing the 3. and 4. gears and synchros. But I cannot move the ball bearing at the end of the secondary shaft and it has no retaining ring that I can see. I dare not use force with a gear puller unless I know that is what is required.

Is it possible to pull out the whole shaft with gears and all and then disassemble it from the 1./2. gear end?

Hope one of you can explain it better than the German shop manual.  ;D


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Jon Weywadt on July 16, 2010, 01:29:50 pm
Update.
Looking at the way the gears and shafts inter lock, it appears that if I loosen the bolt, in the red circle on the photo below, I can pull out the selector shaft. That will allow the reverse selector assembly to be pulled out. Then it appears to be possible to lift out the idler shaft with all idler gears, while at the same time sliding the reverse idler gear off its shaft.

Of course that still leaves the main shaft with all the synchros. That does not appear to come out easy. Any feedback is appreciated.

Also, I am concerned about removing the selector shaft mentioned, because when moving it up and down, it is obvious that there is an indent and ball holding it in position. If I remove it the ball is likely to come out and the shaft cannot be put back in. There has got to be a place to remove the spring and ball, but I have not located it yet.


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: suffolkpete on July 16, 2010, 03:25:39 pm
On my 1.6 'box, the selector detent balls and springs are held in place by the left-hand mounting bracket.  If you have the usual Murena problem of no second gear synchro, you may have one of the gearboxes that was incorrectly machined, in which case you will have to replace the gear as well as the synchro.  There is a thread on it somewhere in the forum.


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Jon Weywadt on July 16, 2010, 03:47:43 pm
On my 1.6 'box, the selector detent balls and springs are held in place by the left-hand mounting bracket.  If you have the usual Murena problem of no second gear synchro, you may have one of the gearboxes that was incorrectly machined, in which case you will have to replace the gear as well as the synchro.  There is a thread on it somewhere in the forum.

Since I have the bell housing off I also have the detent balls and springs you mention, out. But there must be anotehr detent on 5th gear selector shaft, because when I move it up and down it locks in place in the middle where the selector claws lign up.

I will search for the thread you mention. Thanks.

Update
OK I found a thread that talks about the synchros. From there I quote Anders:

"Because of this, the entire 1st and 2nd gear had to be replaced. But it was worth it:
Roy did a great job on the gearbox; it works like a "knife in butter" Wink now, and could even be better than it was when new? He also fitted the new 5th gear, which I think fits the car perfectly, especially on my engine which has max torque around 3500 rpm, where it is going about 130 km/h (speed limit on danish motorways)."

If the problem is not the synchro ring being worn, but rather that the cone on the gear wheel is worn, then one solution could be to mill off about 0,5 mm from the gear side of the synchro ring. This will allow it to seat deeper onto the gear without touching the side, thus fitting tighter onto the cone. I can see no ill side effects from trying that, if my new synchro ring also seats too close to the gear.

I still haven't found anything on how to take it apart, though. :(


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 16, 2010, 08:00:31 pm
... and it's still running knife-in-butter!  8)

Here's Roys excellent photo of the gear wheel and the synchro (blurred somewhat) in the background:

(http://gallery.dinsen.net/d/3035-2/IMG_0158.jpg)

Looking at that photo again, I think the problem was the gear being machined too small. Because of that the synchro was working on the side of gear, instead of on the cone's surface. Note how the cone is not worn at all. Unless you add material to the synchro, machining will not help :( At least not in my case.

I hope you find out how to get it apart. Have you tried e-mailing Roy?

Cheers,
Anders


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: suffolkpete on July 16, 2010, 08:08:34 pm
Roy is currently chasing microcars round Europe so he may not reply quickly.  I have a Swiss (French language) version of the official manual with lots of sketches, but I assume yours is the same only in German, otherwise I'll scan the pictures and email them to you.  I've never taken one of these apart, my solution was to replace the gearbox with a second hand one but I still have the old one.  If I ever find myself in a position of having a lot of time on my hands, I might have a look inside.


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Jon Weywadt on July 16, 2010, 10:28:10 pm
Thanks Anders and Pete.

The reason I am proceding so cautiously (and that is not like me with stuff like this) is that I have to be able to put it back into usable order again by the end of next week. If that is without the new synchro, so be it. I want it fixed right, so if the new synchro is not fiting any better, then I will take it to a chrome shop and have them lay some chrome on the cone. Adding a few tenths of a mm should make it work great. My other option, like I mention, is to mill off some thickness of the ring on the side that faces the gear. That will make the diameter of the ring's cone smaler where it fits aginst the gear cone.

The new fifth gear will have to wait until I, or my friend Jan, can put it on a lathe and make it look like the original. The original center bushing fits perfectly in the new gear, but a 3,5 mm shim will be needed, as mentioned. See my entry in the High 5th gear post (page 9 by now)


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Jon Weywadt on July 17, 2010, 10:12:03 am
Well I may be slow, but I believe I have got it now :D
I found the detent for the 5./R. shift rod and I now know how to remove and reinsert it.
I have also translated the German instructions as best as Google language tools can do.
Between that, my rudimentary knowledge of technical German, and what I know about gear boxes + mechanics in general, I should be able to get it disassembled. I am writing the steps I perform down in english.

I will also try to make a video of the work while I disassemble the gears. I hope it will turn out. At least I will have evidence of what I did (or did wrong  ;) ) so I can reverse the process.

I will also take lots of photos, so I can post the process, in case some of you find yourself needing to do the same work.


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: suffolkpete on July 17, 2010, 10:45:56 am
I like the idea of milling down the face of the synchro ring, it sounds lijke a very simple and economical way of solving the second gear problem.  If you go down this route, let us know how you get on.  Gearbox parts are not only very expensive, but it is a nightmare finding the coreect ones, with all the different variations, far better to put the old ones back if you can.  I might try this on my spare gearbox.  I'm not so interested in the high fifth, there are no motorways in the part of the country where I live and you can't go faster than 70 mph (112 kph) anywhere in the UK anyway.  The standard ratios are fine for my use.


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Jon Weywadt on July 17, 2010, 01:54:07 pm
I like the idea of milling down the face of the synchro ring, it sounds lijke a very simple and economical way of solving the second gear problem.
---

I have talked to my friend Jan about this. With his knowledge of materials he recommend having it planed on a parallel sander. The ring is hardened and would be difficult to mill or turn.

I have made an English set of instructions and list of tools which I have attached as a word document.

I also include photos of the 2. gear with the old synchro and new synchro. You can see the clearance on the new and no clerance on the old ring.

Like on Anders' photo the 2. gear cone does not show any signs of wear. There are signs of wear on the side of the gear, consistent with the synchro ring resting flat against the side with no contact to the cone. I actually found that the ring had radial play on the cone when resting against teh gear. I canot believe this 2. gear worked for very long while new. Now a days there would have been a recall. Wonder if 29 years is too late for that  ;D

The link to the instructions is right above the first photo.


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 17, 2010, 04:29:54 pm
Hi Jon

Hooray! Great to see you've got it apart!  :)

About the 2nd synchro - yes, it's very strange it ever passed any kind of quality control. Many must have been like this. Maybe the did realise, but only after production ended. Someone on the French forums might know?  ???

You plan about documenting the procedure sounds very good. When you have the files ready, I'm sure Lennart will be more than willing to allocate a space for it here on the web site.

/Anders  8)


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Philbert on July 17, 2010, 06:34:43 pm
Hi Jon
--
You plan about documenting the procedure sounds very good. When you have the files ready, I'm sure Lennart will be more than willing to allocate a space for it here on the web site.

/Anders  8)
Hi Anders.
there is actually already a link to the Word document above the photos. I will add photos in the document later, but that is it for now. I also have a video of the disassembly. I will make a WMI file of it and attach it.


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Jon Weywadt on July 19, 2010, 12:28:07 am
Hi Jon
--
You plan about documenting the procedure sounds very good. When you have the files ready, I'm sure Lennart will be more than willing to allocate a space for it here on the web site.

/Anders  8)
Hi Anders.
there is actually already a link to the Word document above the photos. I will add photos in the document later, but that is it for now. I also have a video of the disassembly. I will make a WMI file of it and attach it.

Sorry, I forgot to mention that the message from Philbert was actuallly writen by me, while I was visiting Jan.

Well the gear box is reassembled and waiting to be installed in the morning. Jan will swing by and give me a hand. I can't wait to try out the new synchro.  ;D

Assembly posed two challenges. The easy one was searching through the parts manual to see where the small diameter detent lockout pin should be inserted. I had not noticed that there is a small hole in the grove on the bottom of the 3./4. shifter rod. The more difficult was to get all the parts of the 5./R. shifter rod and reverse mechanism installed, while at the same time keeping the detent pin and spring from flying all over (more than the 3 times it did  :D) I am sure an experienced mechanic knows a trick or two on how to manage this, but it was challenging. ;D



Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Oetker on July 19, 2010, 08:50:11 pm
Quote
--------
You can see the clearance on the new and no clerance on the old ring.
===================================================
Sorry for my late reaction, but did you measure the clearance between synchro and gear?
According to Citroen specialists I asked, the clearance need to be between 0.6-1mm to have good synchro.
1mm new
0.5 warned out.


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Jon Weywadt on July 19, 2010, 09:22:37 pm
Quote
--------
You can see the clearance on the new and no clerance on the old ring.
===================================================
Sorry for my late reaction, but did you measure the clearance between synchro and gear?
According to Citroen specialists I asked, the clearance need to be between 0.6-1mm to have good synchro.
1mm new
0.5 warned out.

I measured the clerance before I reassembled the gear box. The clearance between the underside of the new synchro ring and the gear was 0,7 mm, so it is in the range that Citroen prescribes.

The old ring actually could move laterally while resting against the side of the gear. I cannot see how it could ever have worked properly. There was no sign of wear on the 2. gear cone. when looking on the other gears cones, they all had signs of wear. I would have expected the 2. gear to show more wear than any of the others. The only wear was to the side of the gear and face of the synchro ring.

In order to get 0,6 mm clearance under the old ring, I had to place a 1 mm feeler blade between it and the cone. This means that the ring was 1 mm  too big in diameter for proper fit. There is no way it wore down that much. It must have been too big from the start.

I also checked the clearance between the 1. gear and its synchro ring. It was 0,6 mm and if, as the manual says, the 1. and 2. gear synchro rings are identical, then the 2. gear cone must have been manufactured too small. I forgot to try to swap the rings, to see if they indeed were identical. But if you buy a new 2.  gear synchro ring it will work. I got mine off eBay for 14, but I was lucky to find it there.

UPDATE.

With help from Jan we got the gear box installed and the car out for a test drive.
It runs like a new car.  ;D ;D ;D
What a difference driving and being able to shift through al the gears, up or down.
Also, this car likes the hot weather we are having. The engine runs much better and really pulls from 3500 rpm.


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Oetker on July 19, 2010, 09:30:19 pm
Congratiulation Jon on a job well done.
The description and pics will make it easyer for me and rest of the community ;)


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Oetker on July 19, 2010, 10:19:35 pm
Quote
---------
the underside of the new synchro ring and the gear was 0,7 mm
===============================================
It is in range, but barely.
That is what the problem is about.
The gear where the synchro rest on is not good enough.
New synchro should have given 1mm
Not to be negative, but let's hope it will last.
I will give this extra attention in my rebuild.


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Jon Weywadt on July 20, 2010, 11:04:20 am
All the other gear and synchros were about 0,7 mm in clearance. So with any luck they will last another 150.000 Km.  :D

Anyway, they will work until the clearance reaches zero mm, which should take a while.


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Titus on July 23, 2010, 09:53:52 pm
Help please.  Do I have the correct lay shaft bearing? Peugeot part no. 2373.04.
An offer by a kindly relative to 'easily' replace bearings whilst the box was out for other matters has turned a little more trickey than antisipated. The box is with him and he is on holiday until next week so I can't compare the parts. I'm hoping to have the car back on the road for our next MEC UK meeting at the beginning of August so time is short to find the correct part if I'm wrong. Looking at Jon Weywadt's photos I may have the wrong part.

Also, does anyone have a source for the bronze crank spigot?

Thanks.


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Oetker on July 23, 2010, 10:18:37 pm
The number is correct, but it is not the bearing at clutch side.
It is number 2 on the drawing.
The number for that one is also on the drawing.
This is not verified by me as correct yet.
(http://a.imageshack.us/img80/2118/peu237304.jpg) (http://img80.imageshack.us/i/peu237304.jpg/)


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Titus on July 23, 2010, 10:38:16 pm
Thanks Oetker,

The part I need is bottom left numbered 3 in circle as attached. Any part no.?


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Oetker on July 23, 2010, 10:57:08 pm
Probably on this drawing number 2373.07
(http://a.imageshack.us/img230/9061/peu237307.jpg) (http://img230.imageshack.us/i/peu237307.jpg/)


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Titus on July 23, 2010, 11:05:42 pm
Yes, I'm sure that is it. I was advised to get the plate 2313.59 as it was worn. I have that so your advice makes sence. Now all I need is for it to be available.

Many thanks.


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Oetker on July 23, 2010, 11:13:39 pm
Not cheap but look here.
http://eshop.original-teile.de/index.php?cl=search&searchparam=237307&lang=1&&listtype=search&searchparam=237307

Ofcourse you can try the local Citr/Peu dealer first.


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Jon Weywadt on September 30, 2010, 09:12:47 am
Quote
---------
the underside of the new synchro ring and the gear was 0,7 mm
===============================================
It is in range, but barely.
That is what the problem is about.
The gear where the synchro rest on is not good enough.
New synchro should have given 1mm
Not to be negative, but let's hope it will last.
I will give this extra attention in my rebuild.
Well Oetker, your fears were well founded. Now that the synchro ring and gear has seated, I sometimes grind the 2.nd gear If I shift a little bit fast from 1. to 2. or from 3. to 2.  >:( My guess is that the cone on the gear wheel has worn. Perhaps it is nor hardened enough.

I am going to have to take it apart again. :( This time I will try to get the cone on gear hard chrome plated or perhaps chrome plate the synchro ring.

It does not look like the original parts ever fit properly together. I imagine that several early Murena owners ran into this problem, so I wonder if Talbot solved the problem on later year Murenas. Does any of you know?

I haven't looked in the manuals yet, but can any of you cross-reference the partnumbers for the 2. gear and synchro ring, to a Citroen partnumber?

An other question. Is the ratio of the 2. gear the same on a 1.6 and a 2.2 Murena? ??? I ask because we have an extra 1.6 gear box lying around, that I could salvage the gear from.


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: roy4matra on October 02, 2010, 12:44:40 pm
Yes, I'm sure that is it. I was advised to get the plate 2313.59 as it was worn. I have that so your advice makes sence. Now all I need is for it to be available.

Many thanks.

This is nothing to do with second gear and the second gear synchro problem.  This is the fifth gear end of the gearbox and the plate that holds the bearings at that end.

No the problem is 2nd gears that were machined incorrectly so the cone is undersize.  This means that once the synchro ring has bedded it doesn't grip anymore and do the synchronisation as it should.  The only answer is that cone on the gear has to be the right size, which normally means a new correctly machined gear.

Roy


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Oetker on October 07, 2010, 10:59:07 am
There must be updated gears for it.
Not sure where to find it yet, but it has all my attention.
My car is not first generation, but the problem is there.
In my rebuild I will try to find the right gears.


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: roy4matra on October 10, 2010, 10:16:23 am
Quote
---------
the underside of the new synchro ring and the gear was 0,7 mm
===============================================
It is in range, but barely.
That is what the problem is about.
The gear where the synchro rest on is not good enough.
New synchro should have given 1mm
Not to be negative, but let's hope it will last.
I will give this extra attention in my rebuild.
Well Oetker, your fears were well founded. Now that the synchro ring and gear has seated, I sometimes grind the 2.nd gear If I shift a little bit fast from 1. to 2. or from 3. to 2.  >:( My guess is that the cone on the gear wheel has worn. Perhaps it is nor hardened enough.

I'm sure it was not a hardness factor.  I think they were simply machined too small in the first place.  When I stripped the gearbox that is in Anders car, you can see from the photo he posted, that the cone had not been touching in a long while - it was dark where it should have been highly polished.  If it had been worn owing to poor hardness, the surface would have been rough, and there would have been lots of swarf in the 'box.  There was no more debris inside than in a normal gearbox of that age and mileage.

Citroen would have realised the problem and had the machining corrected, and maybe even had a recall at the time, and certainly done some repairs under warranty, but since the Murena had such a short life, with these being a bought in component, and many cars possibly not doing a great enough mileage for the problem to show up during the period, I doubt many were complained of or done under warranty in the Murena's case.

The later gearboxes had the 1st and 2nd gears, bearings and synchromesh all modified and you have to replace everything since they fitted a radial thrust bearing too, which was not in the early ones.  So the components changed dimensions to leave room for this bearing.  When mods. like this come out, the early parts become no longer made or available, and you have to upgrade.  When I repaired the gearbox in Anders car, the only parts I could get were the newer ones, and I had to upgrade everything.  Of course it is now a better 'box!

Quote
I am going to have to take it apart again. :(

Which is exactly why I told Anders that it was necessary - if I had fitted just a new synchro cone, I knew it would not be long before it would not be synchronising again - not a fault of the cone, but the undersize gear.  I only wish I had bought two complete kits of new parts now, as I think it might be difficult to get them now.  I just hope my gearbox stays good - fortunately I never had a problem with the second gear, so I'm hoping the one in my car was machined correctly! :-)

Quote
It does not look like the original parts ever fit properly together. I imagine that several early Murena owners ran into this problem, so I wonder if Talbot solved the problem on later year Murenas. Does any of you know?

This was not Talbots problem  It was a Citroen gearbox.  If Talbot had enough feedback during the short time the Murena was available, they might have made some call on Citroen to correct the ones they had purchased but my guess is they wouldn't have had enough evidence of the problem in time to do anything about it.

Quote
An other question. Is the ratio of the 2. gear the same on a 1.6 and a 2.2 Murena? ??? I ask because we have an extra 1.6 gear box lying around, that I could salvage the gear from.

Yes the 1.6 and 2.2 are the same gearbox.  It is only the differential that was a different ratio.  However, there are different versions of the gearbox from early to late, with things like different synchromesh units and other minor modifications that happen during the life of a product, but these would have been the same in 1.6 and 2.2

However, it is always worth checking the parts in another gearbox as the gear cone may be correct rather then undersize.  Since I have never found any numbers on the gearboxes, you can't easily tell which is which gearbox.  The only real way is to strip and inspect. :-(

Roy


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Oetker on October 10, 2010, 10:53:56 am
Thanks Roy for your explenation.
Is there a peu/citr number for the modification kit of the second gear.


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: suffolkpete on October 10, 2010, 12:39:30 pm
This person http://www.peugeotparts.co.uk/ has a large stock of Peugeot parts dating back to 1960.  If you know the six-digit Talbot part number you can search the stock list.  I got a new dipstick for my 1.6 a couple of weeks ago (they're the same as the Peugeot 309) and I know there are some gearbox parts there.


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: JL on October 10, 2010, 03:09:44 pm
Pete

Do you know the dipstick part number by any chance?

Regards
John


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Oetker on October 10, 2010, 03:13:36 pm
Peugeot nummer 1172.84
Zit ook in sommige 205 GTI


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: suffolkpete on October 10, 2010, 07:58:33 pm
That's right, they're 25 plus VAT plus postage.  If you're searching the stock list, omit the full stop.


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: JL on October 11, 2010, 06:06:54 pm
Thanks for the information guys.
Regards

John


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Oetker on May 18, 2011, 12:51:33 am
Opened my spare gearbox.
This is the second gear with synchro.
It is 0.1mm so this is what the problem is about.
(http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/3876/sync2medium.jpg)

Looking at the surface of the gear where the synchro hits, the problem is clear.
(http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/9026/p1030401medium.jpg)

Did some measurements on the synchro but you can see right away what is wrong with the gear.
Here 2 pictures of both sides of the synchro.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-8w4SD8p7BaI/T2w0FS9WfwI/AAAAAAAACIc/Rc_XUUtQkXY/s800/P1030408.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-7Riu_7ordHM/T2w0EKER8MI/AAAAAAAACII/kILmqdVPmKU/s800/P1030406.JPG)

It is clear to me.
The conic part of the gear has a wrong angle, and is to small.
That was the easy part, now to find the right gear ???


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Jon Weywadt on May 18, 2011, 11:55:00 am
Opened my spare gearbox.
This is the second gear with synchro.
It is 0.1mm so this is what the problem is about.
-----
It is clear to me.
The conic part of the gear has a wrong angle, and is to small.
That was the easy part, now to find the right gear ???
Exactly the problem I had last year, and now again. The new synchro ring lasted less than 6 months. >:(

Philbert has suggested, and I intend to follow his suggestion, to have the synchro ring hard-chrome plated. That will add enough thousands to the thickness on the inside surfaces, so that hte ring will ride higher on the gear cone. Also it should resist wear better. The possible reduction in drag between grear and ring should be minor.

I am wondering if Matra ever fixed the problem in later models and if there exist a new partnumber for gear and/or synchro ring.  ??? ??? ???


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Oetker on May 18, 2011, 02:18:13 pm
I also think that the angle is wrong and not only the diameter of the cone, but it is all still under investigation.
Citroen had them updated for there own cars. and not only this gear.
I don't want to jump to conclusion before I sorted this all out (NB: if possible)
I already found doc for several updates for Murena gearboxes, but nothing is mentioned about the second gear.
I bought myself a second spare gearbox from a later Murena (82 with 70.000 miles.).
The car was destroyed by a accident and was OK.
This will be opened for gathering info.
I also will try to collect info from Harry Martens Limmen, Citroen gear specialsist
Need the time to go there, and try to find answers.
I hope for help there.
To be cont.


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Oetker on July 20, 2013, 09:53:16 pm
The solution.

It took me ages to fix the gearbox but I wanted to have all things sorted out.
It's not something I want to do twice.
I took my gearbox from the 1.6 (1981) apart.
Synchro 2e and 2e gear  together.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-JtL4WvrhGpc/UUeApvHmSfI/AAAAAAAACr8/kU-jjrI3gss/s800/P1050888%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)
It is warned out as we saw before.

New synchro on the old gear.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-csy3clr9Hy0/UUeAqcCNjtI/AAAAAAAACrw/6fPiCI5u3Nw/s800/P1050890%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)

Ther is only 0.6 mm between synchro and gear so a problem to reuse.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-4EsV850tGeU/UUeAqYsi9EI/AAAAAAAACrY/wUbDvAP1UTw/s800/P1050892%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)

Ater spitting out all documentation from Citroen CX1 and CX2 I found out that you can use the second gear wheel from this cars but need to be later then 1980 construction date.
To get a better gearwheel I made use of a old friend, Leontien at http://www.hydraulique.nl/
She is a lovely specialist on Citroen.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-B4tPXk3Mk0I/VbZIqKQkKlI/AAAAAAAAGlY/ulaCERqY9v4/s494-Ic42/Leo1.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-x6BHhRNp74E/VbZIqB5TbyI/AAAAAAAAGlU/VdNprt5xtr8/s494-Ic42/Leo2.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-xG6WP0tOhwM/VbZIqKhIDCI/AAAAAAAAGlc/XU_s6arBLac/s612-Ic42/Leo3.jpg)

She looked up some gears and syncro's from the spare parts room.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-KPKzFY9SbhQ/UUs55v4HkpI/AAAAAAAACto/vfXyuz9xprI/s800/P1050898%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-TkDk3Wrj8X4/UUs55jyVVzI/AAAAAAAACtk/XpFJMKZ9CGs/s800/P1050900%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)

Here you see 2 Murena gears left and 1 CX gear on the right.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-j1XQXFaSX-Y/UUs56c1vl8I/AAAAAAAACts/BwM8fx137ww/s800/P1050903%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)

0.95mm with the new synchro.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-12IgoGnTQno/UUs57CtrykI/AAAAAAAACuI/sHSey_C484Q/s800/P1050905%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)
It is pretty clear the CX-gear is the better one but would it fit the Murena box?
I desided to use this gear in the box and replace top primary bearing and seals.
I mounted the 2nd gear on the axle.
Because of the new gear a little to much play was here.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-_NBj6KIGnFQ/UU9KqQmkyKI/AAAAAAAACvc/a06oNIt5s9I/s800/P1050930%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)
It has to be no higher then 0.05mm but it was almost 0.1 mm.
I ordered new rings at Simon and he has them in several sizes as pointed out in the doc.

Now it is OK.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-P2CulXrdyHE/UX_U_M_ZcqI/AAAAAAAAC6s/wSme9P5_mnM/s800/P1050961%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-9n2fZ6MQQr4/UU9KqyQv_1I/AAAAAAAACvs/_L_H7achVfc/s800/P1050931%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)

Seal at the primary. (21.9x47x8/6.3 mm) odd Americain size so I used standard 22x47x8.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-CVvL6BjQGAM/UX_U-7A9zbI/AAAAAAAAC64/UUyCJxelkrk/s800/P1050960%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)

Also in the differential 2 pieces (35x50x7)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-8VHLMgeGbzE/UX-lDxIBjxI/AAAAAAAAC2o/YuBGld0QGq0/s800/P1060021%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)

New primary bearing.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-lP3GVrNJtFI/UX_U9u1RKxI/AAAAAAAAC6c/Pelr8BUaUPw/s800/P1050958%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-irfqmzCwqYM/UX_U92XlWCI/AAAAAAAAC6k/fEsruzQqti4/s800/P1050959%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)

Another warned out part.
The fork of the 2nd gear.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ljkCPJnyFKE/UX_VAzNWZCI/AAAAAAAAC7U/fXbEqzmj9Rk/s800/P1050965%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)

I used one from a 2.2 gearbox and it fitted OK.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-2Ydt32fr9LA/UX_VBFHcf0I/AAAAAAAAC7k/AqfGOLIKy7Y/s800/P1050966%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)

Mounted all parts with new seals.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-havznPPOrRA/UX_VLzcG8HI/AAAAAAAAC-s/R5WFcTVYmtQ/s800/P1050997%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)

Replaced this for better one and mounted the modification seals and rubber.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-IJxw40Cxy6s/UX_UZy4ktzI/AAAAAAAAC5M/UZcD7xl3Y_U/s800/P1060018%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-Qx59IUelcN8/UX_UartOzhI/AAAAAAAAC5Q/UJS5LF_T8CE/s800/P1060019%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)

Feels very tight and good.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-SFIdfJrebX8/UX_UcNuApOI/AAAAAAAAC50/dUdgfdvrVLc/s800/P1060023%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-CwyEzVYsn94/UX_Uc_hwJrI/AAAAAAAAC58/bLXyJQdzAec/s800/P1060025%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)

Ready to build in.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-J6utY7NpFEQ/UX_UdL3mxxI/AAAAAAAAC6M/ps1h9YwVGgY/s800/P1060026%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)

Test movie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZR_YGUX7UU&feature=em-upload_owner

Mounting the box in the car.
Everything ready to mount including new clutch set and new axles.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-2DlK1d9VBw8/UeJ2yVnkhsI/AAAAAAAADSk/XKHhN1HPjlY/s800/P1060269%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-4JkVw5XliTc/UeJ2sRKbw6I/AAAAAAAADQU/fDgxQEQAq00/s800/Foto0129.jpg)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-tGMi0K67dsI/UeJ2y5MVZhI/AAAAAAAADS8/IRrOKSWeKcE/s800/P1060271%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)

The car runs very well with the CX gear and silent bearings.

But now the clue.
What went wrong with the gears you may ask.
Some info came from a fellow member of the club that bought a new 2.2 1982 Murena in Brussel.
After a few months he received a letter (NB:it is in my posession now) where he was asked to bring the car in for a new gearbox.
There was no problem with the car but the car was in warranty and as he was a good friend of the car-dealer he was one of the few that had the problem sorted out.
After the year warranty most owners could shake it.

Harry Martens from Limmen is a specialist in CX Gearboxes provided me some info.
It seems that CX gearboxes produced before 1980 had gears and synchro's with a different angle on the synchro part.
This is what Roy also pointed out.
It is logical that this gears and syncro's can't be mixed up.
That is exactly what happened.

A second problem is that Peugeot synchro-rings have the same ordering number for old and new synchro.
You can recognise the old type rings.
The old type ring has the 3 dips in the ring (white marks) and are produced before 1980.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QyaxPHSeyGI/UeroHNHwUsI/AAAAAAAADYQ/OkHGVhCH1IQ/s800/oldsync.jpg)

The solution is to find newer gears from CX (after 1980) and use the newer type synchro.
If you have the newer set and not enough space between synchro and gear, you can machine a bit of from the ring to make it work again.
(This tip came from Harry Martens himself)
Didn't try that yet, but have some gearboxes around here with the same problems to play with.

I hope this clears things out.

Best regards Herman



Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Jon Weywadt on July 21, 2013, 06:16:13 pm
Super job and great detailed description of problem and its solution. ;D ;D ;D
I still have not fixed my gear box after the new synchro ring wore out. Various problems had priority and the Murena has not seen work, except a brake job in order to pass the MOT. Now I am retired and should have time to fix it, but lack a proper space to work on the car. (Need to build a carport, but city won't let me at the spot I want it  >:( )
I do not have more spares, so I will probably try to fix it by machining a fraction off the thickness of the ring on side against the gear. Possibly also take a bit off the gear itself, until the clearance is at least 0.95mm.


Title: Re: Help needed replacing 2. gear synchro ring
Post by: Oetker on October 20, 2013, 08:43:55 am
But then you still need a better gear because you bought the newer type synchro ring and it died fast.
The old type synchro is impossible to find.
My second gear runs flawless with the CX gear.
Another problem appeared.
After several months of use now it slips out of 3th gear when hitting the throttle.
That is a problem with the dog-theet gear that handle the shifting 3-4
Now I am really pissed.
After making a secure job I still need to do it again. :'(
Well, it's a Matra and this cars are full of suprizes.

regards Herman