MatraSport Forum

Due to the excess of oil pouring out of the crankcase seals and a gradual increase in knocking noise that made me err on the cautionary side and call out a recovery truck  :( I have now removed my engine and delivered it to Roy Gillard for a full refurbish and oil tight (as possible) rebuild.
The last rebuild was done in 1998, so I am very interested to find out if the engine was actually put together properly then and what the damage or wear is now, if any?
One thing that is obvious is that No. 3 exhaust manifold was leaking due to the burnt paint  on the block, so I will resurface the exhaust pipe manifold flanges amongst other jobs in preparation to reinstalling the engine.

NB: The last thing I touched before lowering the engine out was the distributor and I found this to be loose on the pinch bolt. So I am hoping with all fingers and toes crossed that it was purely an ignition timing problem causing the noise.

Will keep you posted on developments and if you Roy wish to give any feedback direct feel free.

GP

Things that happen sometimes :P
(http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/3639/distr1.jpg) (http://img820.imageshack.us/i/distr1.jpg/)
(http://img407.imageshack.us/img407/50/distr2.jpg) (http://img407.imageshack.us/i/distr2.jpg/)
(http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/8094/p1010358medium.jpg)
(http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/7739/p1010364medium.jpg)

Ooh errr.....  I don't think I will be able to sleep tonight?
I don't want to see any more sights like that thanks!

GP

I also have some interesting pics of main bearings and crancks, but  I don't want to disturbe youre sleep anymore.
Let's hope for the best, and it is only the ignition gear.
They are very soft and easy worn out.

I think it's lasted very well considering the use you put it to. ;)  I hope you are planning to get it balanced during the rebuild, it's not a huge amount of money in the general scheme of things and makes a big difference.

Hope it goes well Graham and I look forward to another dice around Brands in my 205 when its all back together.

Engine strip down has revealed a blown head gasket between 3 & 4 cylinders. Hopefully the head will not require a skim, but have to wait and see? Roy has identified the cause as probably due to me not re-torquing the head after a 1000 miles after the previous rebuild, as the head bolts were pretty loose. Regardless I have ordered a Mecapart 505 Turbo ROC Head Gasket which will be used on the rebuild.
There is excess end float on the crank which will hopefully be cured by new thrust washers.
The rear block seal was fitted badly and plastic pegs were not used, hence all the oil pouring out.
Two of the pistons had the ring gaps in the same places.
And last but not least all the Rocker Arms were Inlet Arms! So a new or reground set of exhaust Rocker Arms with the lubrication hole are required. New ones orderd and on their way.
Brands Hatch will definitely be on the cards for a Track Day, but the first target is "La Vie en Blue" Hillclimb at Prescott and Crystal Palace Sprint at the end of May.

G.P.

  I hope you caught it before it trashed the camshaft.

Roy thinks I got away with it due to the quality engine oil I use, which is Millers Motorsport CSS 20w50 Competition Semi Synthetic Oil for older performance engines.

If I can recomend something - use the Peugeot 2,2 Turbo Injection head gasket  ;) I do it with every overhaul of this 2,2 engine.

Understood, I will be doing this. What supplier do you use for these and how much would you expect to pay in Euro?

G.P.

That's the question... because all parts for my 2,2 rebuilds (once in my 2,2 Tagora, three times in my old silver 2,2 Murena and now second time for my red 2,2 S) I bought from Milan Dobes here in CZ, but think that it's Elring, surely not Ajusa (from Spain). Price as I remember was arround 60,- Eur. On my Tagora, I did more than 350.000 kms after renovation, both my Murenas were used for racing on circuit and I never had problems with this gaskets not even when I overheated it (on my silver 2,2 - once due to bad cooler what caused breaking of cyl.head and second time when that welded head broke again - stupid me, because using the welded head is just for selling the car, not for longer use - it broke down right at the point of welding ::) ). Even my last problem on 2,2 S caused overheating the engine, but head did resists also as the turbo gasket ;) Milan Dobes allways says that I am a test driver for quality of his repairs and when I need the cyl.head gasket, he automaticaly takes the Turbo gasket  ;D
For refresh - I bought my Murena 5 years ago with completely damaged engine, one piston missing (broken to small pieces), big hole in cylinder, damaged head and crankshaft too. We rebuilded the engine, but I haven't checked the ballancing of flywheel. After some kms, the oil started to leak between engine and gearbox, cca 1 liter per 5000kms. I used the car and though that some day, I have to make new sealing of crankcase. One hot day at circuit I forgot to fill up the oil and also (because of a hard race with new Subaru Impreza hatchback) I "forgot" to gear up and saw my rewmeter in 7000 rpm sometimes. Three laps the Subaru wasn't able to overtake me, in corners I was better (but true is, that I have polyurethan bushes on both antiroll bars, Spax suspension, 205/50R15 and 215/45R15 Toyo TR1, lightened engine cover and better set up on front axle), on straight parts he was faster of course... than I heard that fu**ing knocking :( At first, I though that only one small-end bearing was wrong, and after demounting the engine, it really was, but also my last main bearing was damaged very very hardly - it was not only from last time, it was the result of unbalanced flywheel and also that was the way where the oil went off. Is known that 5 grams of unbalancing is a problem - I had 16 grams on flywheel, 8 grams on one side of the crankshaft and 7 grams on the other side... I though that from factory it must be balanced, but probably the previous owner used the flywheel from other engine. After balancing it, there was cca 0,15 grams on flywheel, 0,17 g on one side and 0,18 grams on other side of the crankshaft. Now I have driven cca 900 kms and I have to say, that engine runs much more smoothly and more willingly follows the throttle pedal, I'm not going over 4000 rpm, but when I press the pedal a little, it goes really very quicky up and after gearing up, there is no delay, it's just accelerating more and more, I couldn't image what will happend when I will go over 4000 rpm where this engine starts showing its power  ;) now I'm very very satisfied and it's surprising because before the car wasn't slowly.

(http://michaltalbot.sweb.cz/Murena%20Most/Most10a.jpg)

I got the n9tea head gasket from peugeot for around 65euros.
maybe politechnic has some left?

Well I picked up the engine several weeks ago from Roy.  Whilst there Roy pointed out damage on the sump, which indicated it was hitting the chassis on the offside (right) front side. On inspection the lower engine bushes were collapsed on both sides, with the holes nearer the bottom than the middle. So new bushes were fitted, along with a new clutch assembly and the bearing on the end of the crankshaft before re-installing the engine in the car.

The biggest job so far has been painstakingly re-dressing the exhaust manifold flanges by hand, with a file and a sheet of 6mm mirrored glass coated with grinding paste, to remove the errosion and pitting which was very bad on all four pipe flange areas.

I am lucky enough to have aquired the whole engine assembly from the Matra Honda conversion done in the U.K.  by Darren. On the engine he had some lovely stainlees steel cooling pipes made up by a talented F1 fabricator friend of his. I hope to have these all fitted shortly, followed by the suspension and then fire the beast up. Keep you posted. Brmm Brmm!  :D

GP

You placed a aftermarket engine-mount if I see it correct.
They have harder compound.
Since I have this on the car I have some extra vibrations at idle, and if mounted wrong also a rumble in higher RPM.
It is irritating.
Looking at youre sump there must have been a lot of movement.
Something like in this video.
In this video you can also see how a engine dies when forgetting oil-check.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLNzBDYfIII

 :o :o

Oetker! What are you trying to do??

Make all uf us here whimper and cry in pain.....?

A member forgot to check oil, and wanted us to hear a ticking noise for judgement after that.
The engine just died recording it, but I think it was more or less dead already.
The point was the swinging engine and mount.
I still hope to find one with a softer compound then the latest batch.

The engine mount and bush assembly came from Garage Simon already assembled. This has the Matra Part number 327139 cast on it, which is the same as the one that came off. I am pretty sure it is not a an aftermarket pattern part. What indicates to you it may be?

Oh jeez I have just watched the video. Unbelievable and very disturbing to say the least! Was he trying to destroy it on purpose or did he really forget to check and put oil in ? I definitely have oil in mine as I just filled it without fitting the oil level switch. Must go now and clean up the floor! :'(

It does look like he may not have a top engine mount fitted there is so much movement. I did replace these 2 x bushes about 10 years ago, but I think I will go and have a much closer  look.

Thanks for the reponse Oetker, much appreciated.

GP

Some people really don't know about engines and the wrong sounds.
It was not on purpose, it happened, caught by camera.

Th original engine-mount look likes this.
(http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/3332/dsc0702medium.jpg)

The latest batch looks like this.
(http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/6726/p1000888medium.jpg)

You van recognize it by the angeled rubber at the edges.
They are much stiffer then the originals, introducing engine-vibrations in the car especialy in idle speed.
If I can find it I would change it back for a softer one no matter lifespan is shorter.

Notice, the way the new rubber is mounted is wrong.
It introduced a rumble in the car.
It has to be mounted like the upper foto.

One thing that is painfully obvious from that video is, that he did not have the top engine mount attaching the head to the rear wall in the engine compartment.  :o
If he had that mount, there is no way the engine would move that much. Probably he has a Tagora head, whiich does not have the fitting to install that mount. Philbert is struggling with that same problem. A jury-rigged mount on his Tagora head, keeps ripping the bolt out of the head. :(

There is only one good solution using the Tagora head, and that is to weld new supports on the head like in the picture.
(http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/9174/2008112.jpg) (http://img847.imageshack.us/i/2008112.jpg/)

Fitted all the S.S. Coolant Pipes with new hoses and S.S. slanger klammers. The cooling system was filled with the thermostat out and with the assistance of an L.P. air line jammed in the top of the expansion bottle neck, the system was bled nicely with a fine jet of water coming out of the thermostat hose bleed nipple after a few fill ups. No leaks observed and the oil level checked ready for lift off shortly.

GP

NB: Plenty of lovely room to play in with the 20 litre tank tucked out of the way. (Last picture)

The engine fired up last week instantly with the static engine timing set to 10 degs. No leaks of oil or water visible so far and huge oil pressure.
The engine did seem to shake around a bit and obviously the new engine mounts are a concern. I put a strobe light on to check the igniton and retarded it to 12 deg. BTDC and things settled down nicely. I have been advised by Roy that 14 deg. may suit my particular set up even better. I do have the vacuum advance disconnected and the inlet manifold blanked off accordingly.
Once I have run it, re-torqued the cylinder head and re-adjusted the tappets I will take it to a Rolling Road and try this out with a few Power/Torque runs to confirm it. I must say it is pulling like a train now (Sorry Officer) and hopefully it will not let itself down at "La Vie en Blue 2011" (Sunday) or Crystal Palace 2011 (Monday). Both of which I have entered and would love to see any Matra enthusiast out there attend.

http://www.prescott-hillclimb.com/events/may2011.aspx

http://www.motorsportatthepalace.co.uk/

GP

Nice to see you have it up and running again.
Must be OK now for the next 150.000 miles to come ;D

That would be very nice indeed. Attached is the latest power/torque curve from the final setting up session on a rolling road. having run the engine in now. Down a tiny bit in power at 153bhp as I used to have 156bhp. Torque the same at 136.8lbft. The only difference being that I have removed the exhaust wrap now from the manifold.

GP

What is your take on the exhaust wrap GP?
I have wanted to apply some to my car for some time, as the four branch stainless manifold on my car produce a LOT of heat!.  So far I have not done so from fear of heat soak damage to the cylinder head, and the possible fire hazard from oil drips and spills onto the wrap.
From what I have learned, damage to the manifold is mostly an issue with cast or welded iron, where stainless steel should hold up much better.
But what about the cylinder head?   

In my opinion I am in favour of using it especially in a mid-engined car with the engine in a confined space.
My take is that it reduces the engine bay heat and the cooler air helps with more oxygen for more power. I have read that velocities of exhaust gases increases and improves scavening of burnt gases, which then improves the whole combustion process. Not that I can confirm or reject this theory.
It can cause hot spots on cast iron manifolds which may cause failures, but I have only used it on my 4-branch S/S manifold. Coat it afterwards if required with a heat paint (mine did) and oil and grease didn't appear to bother my installation. It does become brittle with time though and mine only became damaged as I had removed the manifold and bounced it about on the deck a few times.
I do not think heat soak into the head or fire hazard are anything to worry about.
I did not fit heat wrap this time (which I have purchased) as it is a very time consuming process as you should really try and keep all the lengths continous. I would take a few evenings over the installation myself as it is a bit tedious.

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/Motorsport/Car_Preparation/Heat_Shielding_Protection/Design_Engineering_Titanium_Exhaust_Wrap/1471/6261

Something to consider is possibly ceramic coating although this may be rather expensive, but I have no experience of this.

http://www.zircotec.com/page/exhaust_system_coatings/60

Thanks GP... that pretty much doest it for me... I'm gonna give it a go :)

Your welcome Krede. Good decision.

NB: Having seen that ceramic coating company site for the first time today I have sent a request to them out of interest, for a price to ceramic coat the S/S manifold in white? Keep you posted.

GP

Also Try

http://www.camcoat.u-net.com/  both will last forever

Hi Krede here is the answer:

Dear Graham

Thank you for your enquiry via our website.

Zircotec® coatings are proven for application to a variety of materials providing a high performance ceramic thermal barrier coating, which improves the efficiency of exhausts and prevents local component and chassis damage from radiated heat.  In recent testing surface temperatures were reduced by ~33% for our Performance Range and ~25% for our Primary Range; both may be suitable for your needs but more details are shown on our website www.zircotec.com.

Our coatings are not paints but ceramics applied using a plasma spraying process which ensures an extremely well adhered, durable coating with an extremely hard and durable surface that is highly resistant to vibration, mechanical damage and thermal shock. The full process, which is suitable for both new and used exhaust systems, consists of: masking where the coating is not required, surface preparation, spraying of base coat and finally spraying of ceramic thermal barrier coat. As we use plasma spraying process the coating is to the external surfaces only with no preparatory work required by you.  

The natural colour of our coating is white/cream, but many of our customers call for the very highest level of performance offered by Performance White™ but also require a coating with a finish that can be more easily maintained. To meet this need Zircotec has developed a range of high quality multi-coat colour finishes that are applied over the top of our standard plasma-sprayed ceramic. The full range of colours can be seen on the attached link (http://www.zircotec.com/page/-_performance_colours/47 ).   Our Primary range is only available in a matt black finish.

Regarding pricing; for an S O H C 4 cylinder manifold the cost to coat is £160 for Primary Black™; £228 for Performance White™ or £262 for any from our Performance Colours™ range.  Prices exclude shipping and VAT.  Turnaround time is approximately 10 working days with payment accepted via credit card or bank transfer.

To proceed simply send the manifold to the address below, remembering to include your contact details. We will contact you upon receipt to confirm details and arrange payment.

Kind Regards

Linda Dowdell