MatraSport Forum

I'm going to see a supposed Murena "S" at the weekend. It is a 1982 model, so it must an aftersales kit and it has a 4 branch manifold (with 4 output silencer!) and twin Solex carbs. Question is, is there any other way to determine if it is a genuine "S" kit with the hotter cam?

Also, the MOT on this car runs out in December, so what weaknesses are there to check for?

Also (full of questions aren't I), does the inlet manifold need much mods to fit DCOE carbs?

Cheers,

Antony

The S kit on the engine consists of both cam, distributor, and different carburettors. The carbs are easy to identify as the S-kit has two side draught Solex carbs instead of the single down draught.

In addition to that, the S-kit consisted of side sills and the rear spoiler plus a few other items I think.

I have done some research on what to look for while going through the process of finding my own Murena. For MOT I'd say that the main issue is brakes being good and rear trailing arms not being too rusty. Water pumps failing and heads overheating and cracking seems to be a too common problem too. Finally, some has had heavy wear and eventually complete breakdown because of oil pumps failing. Less than optimal lubrication and/or cooling kills the engine. It's not the type of engine that you are careless about, also because it's quite difficult/expensive to find a new one should yours fail.

Apart from that just look for the usual stuff on older cars - except rust though that is generally not a problem.

- Anders ;)

Thanks Anders, this car has the carbs and side skirts, but no rear spoiler. I guess it has bits of the kit fitted. I hope the cam is there!

It has also had the trailing arms replaced, but not sure about the oil pump. Apparently it has had a very pampered life for the past 14 years, so I won't be hammering it straight away should I buy it!

If this is the car for sale in Nottinghamshire, then I can confirm that it had new trailing arms last year as I supplied them.
I've known the owner for a long time but don't remember the car although I know he's had it for a long time and hardly uses it.


Looking at the pictures I came across I think it must be an 'S' kit as it is a pre-'83 car.

Only a genuine 's' or 's' kit will have the Matra plastic airbox on the carbs. Most aftermarket twin carb conversions use pancake filters direct on to the carbs which can be quite noise so close to your ears.  Twin Solexes probably make it genuine;  Matra owned Solex and aftermarket fitments are always Dellorto or Weber.

All 2.2's and 'S's had the cast  exhaust manifold, but most have been replaced by 4 branch as the iron manifolds nearly always crack eventually.

Happy road testing!

Cheers Will, yes it is the one in Notts - small world!

He has it on a classic insurance policy that limits use to 1500 miles a year!

I doubt I will treat it with exactly the same kid gloves, but I will respect its age.

I'm very excited about it...

I forgot to add that the rear wing may have been left off because some people prefer not to fit them; they steal a little rear view particularly when reversing and make it more difficult to get into the boot for servicing.

OK, well I just spoke to the garage that fitted the "S" kit, Sports Cars Unlimited in Newcastle, and he definitely confirmed it has the fast road cam, twin Solex carbs and 4 branch manifold. He also confirmed that the car used to be silver! As it is now red, he suspects some accident damage has occured.

So a genuine S kit 2.2 for £2250. If it drives OK, I am definitely gonna go for it.
He also said that they have a huge stock of old-stock new parts and used parts. Handy to know.
Tel number is 0191 281 4036.
He seemed very friendly and knowledgeable.

Well I drove this car at the weekend and have done some more research about them.
It has had only the nearside (UK - drivers side on LHD car) trailing arm replaced. The other side was drilled to check for structural integrity and then spray-filled with oil.

It isn't a genuine prep 142 "S" kit. The garage that sold it fitted their cars with a fast road cam, 4 branch manifold and twin Solex carbs. The inlet manifold isn't angled, so there is only room for small pancake air filters. These were noisy, but of more concern to me is the fact that they will be breathing hot air from the enclosed engine bay. I guess that could be solved with some cold air feed pipes.

The gearchange was very sloppy, but I understand that is easily fixable, once the area of sloppiness has been identified.

It drove well, with no pulling to one side and the brakes felt very strong. Just had new calipers all round fitted.

I was a tight squeeze in there! What is with the adjustable foot board for the passengers?

The lights went up very quickly, even with the engine off and everything seemed to work apart from the passengers window and the heated rear window. I'm sure they can be fixed easily. Anyone know which other cars use the same electric window lifters?

I have a week to think about it, but for the price and condition I may just go for it.

I wouldnt worry too much about the carbs sucking in hot air.... there are quite some circulation in front of the engine, and even IF there wasnt.. just take a look at politecs high spec engines... they use bolt on filters too... so it cant be that much of an issue.

The Window lifters are from a Talbot tagora as far as i know...

however, it looks like they did all the modifications, except for the rear spoiler, which while effective isn't the most practical thing on Earth :-)
And at speeds under 100mph I doubt it makes much difference.

As Krede says, this is not a big problem, as the air effectively circulates within the engine compartment while you're on the move. As far as I know, Matra did windtunnel tests to ensure the airflow would be drawn up and around the enginebay.

The ball under the gearlever is one common source of sloppyness
The ball-joints in the linkage is another, - and they are relatively easy and cheap to fix.

The ball-joint at the back of the long rod running along the underside of the car often has a big influence. Note that the whole rod is designed to sway right/left as well as rotate - don't try to fixate it to the chassis, unless you are left with no other options.

Most of us are a tight squeeze there - in either direction so to speak.  I'm 85kg 6' 4" and a bit - and have no problems whatsoever fitting myself in a Murena.... but ok, I am probably slightly enthusiastic :-)

But honestly, I am more comfortable in my Murena than in many cars, - and I never have any back-problems in the Murena (but had to modify the seat somewhat in my Peugeot 106 "T-car" )

The foot-board was not included on all cars, - I think none of the 1.6's had them, and maybe only some of the 2.2 ? - does it have the box ahead of the gearlever ?

My car has neither box nor foot-rest - i.e. a totally flat floor.
( http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Murena/Gallery1/Med/dsc_4458s.html )

very good sign indeed. 
this is a good test of the vacuum system, - after you stop the engine, how many hours does the vacuum still pull the headlights down, making them hard to lift by hand?

/Lennart

So, can anyone advise me if the price for this car is fair?

1982 2.2 Murena with aftermarket twin Dellorto 40s, Holbay Tornado cam, 4 branch manifold and replica Devil quad exit backbox.
90,000km, MOT/tax till December.

Recent tyres, calipers all round, nearside trailing arm and water pump.

Advertised as an "S" for £2250.

Or should I offer £1750 as a cheeky opening bid?

well, THAT is IMO quite cheap already - even had it needed a respray and some work. But it sounds as if it is ready to go ? - I wouldn't hesitate to pay that wihtout negotiating at all.

On the continent it appears that all the excess German cars have been sold, (the prosoect of having to fit a catalythic converter caused many to sell them at fairly low prices)  and prices seem to be higher than in the UK.

/Lennart

I agree fully with Lennart. Don't give a bid. Just buy it - before anybody on the continent does ;-)
You will love the Holbay cam!
It is obviously not an original S but that is of no importance at that price.

OK, I have sold my Xantia Activa to a guy with a Lotus Esprit (who claimed the Xantia cornered as well as his Lotus) and he picks it up next week, so the Murena deal is on!

When the vendor returns from his holidays this weekend I will send him a deposit and secure the car.

My wife and mother are not pleased, but who cares!! As long as me and my boys can enjoy the car, thats all that matters.
My eldest boy is very excited about Daddy buying a car with 4 exhausts!

Just then gotta lose my 205 and buy a more sensible car that my wife can drive. Anyone know of any cheap Avantimes?

Well the Xantia Activa is one stunning car, with its flat cornering.

Hahaha - you definitely have got the Matra bug already, haven't you ? :-)

/Lennart

Don't say that! I feel bad enough already about selling such a good condition Activa. I hope the Murena is as enjoyable.

I got the Matra bug when I was a little kid and the local Rootes group dealer got a Bagheera in stock. I would stand for ages with my nose against the window marvelling at such an exotic machine parked beside humble Simcas.

I also loved my Mums old Simca 1100, one of the most comfortable cars I've ever been in.

I love French cars in general.

Hahaha!! SAME HERE!!! :D

My 8 yr old has the same craze about counting exhausts! And he loves my Murena, though mine only has two end pipes. I fixed the vacuum for the popup headlights yesterday, and he loved it. He thought it looked sooo cool. I also lifted him into the boot where he checked the engine ;)

Your mother and wife will learn to live with it ;)

Hi
Attached please find from a french site the specification for a Murena S.
This will also give you an oppertunity to practice your French.
This might be a bit late but I have been busy rebuilding my fram's barn.
Hans

Thanks for that link Matra-Hans, can you clarify what the numbers in the "Distribution" section mean?

I am getting  hold of the specs for the Holbay cam in the car I am after, to compare with the official "S" cam.

I don't think there's much difference between a Holbay Tornado cam and an 'S"

One characteristic not mentioned is that the 'S' has a lightened flywheel, which I think makes a big improvement to the flexibility of the engine.

Funny you should say that Will, as the example I drove did feel rather "heavy" to rev, if that makes sense.

Can anyone tell me what the standard rocker ratio is for this engine?

I have the specs for the Holbay cam, but they don't take into account the rocker ratio.

Actually, it does mention that, the phrase "Volant Moteur Allege" means "lightened flywheel", or so my French colleague informs me.

So, a car advertised as an "S", but with just 2 carbs and a 4 branch manifold bolted on, is a long way from being an "S".
Interesting...

It isn't going to be exact, but I've just tried measuring a loose rocker. It looks like it is something like 1.2 depending on the valve adjustment.


Holbay cam is reported to be as good or better than the standard S cam, the large overlap means that it just continues taking revs. The lift is lower than the standard S, but the open time is greater. I have the Holbay cam in my Murena and the S-distributor with more aggressive ignition timing.

I had to remove the rocker cover on mine (don't do it if you don't have to as the gasket will *need* to replaced) and took the opportunity to take this picture of one of the inlet lobes. It does not show the 70 degrees overlap, but it's there ;) and you *can* see the oval lobe shape.

Your car will never be an original S, but it can get very close and be just as good regarding performance.

On mine the twin Solex carbs have been replaced by the standard single Solex, which i don't mind as it is plenty good enough to supply air for me.

OK, thanks for that. It makes sense. Nice picture too. It isn't a particularly aggressive cam lift-wise is it? Not compared to the rally cam in my 205, but it is very oval!

I have another question then - is the S distributor a completely different model or does it just have a different advance curve?

If it is the latter, do you know what the 2 advance curves are (standard and S)? I know of a place in the UK that can alter advance curves on distributors and I could easily get the standard one modified to S spec.

I got the one on my 205 recurved and it made a decent improvement.

Your single carb is probably much more economical than the twin Solex set up too!

I pick mine up on Thursday afternoon, can't wait. Got it for £2000.

I know that Holbay developed a cam that is more aggressive than this - in a year or two we may see that go in a Murena in GB, it will be interesting to see how that turns out. But no, I don't think it is that "bad" ;) it's quite driveable even at low revs and it idles very well.


AFAIK it is only a different advance curve!


Not really, but I think we can find out.... and I'm sure that the UK Matraclub can help.


No that is the primary reason that "the experts" recommend the change, plus that the twin carbs really doesn't really give that much more power. It's also easier to maintain and adjust. So I'm quite happy with my single carb. If I'll ever change it, I will fit a fuel injection system with full ignition control too.


That sounds like a very good deal! Big congratulations. I'm sure you will be very happy with it! Keep it well! 8)

Although the original question was asked some time ago and no longer requires an answer for that particular purchase, the following may be useful for others in future.

To tell if a Murena is a genuine 'S' is easy - the chassis number starts VF853C432 EX 75....  Only the 'S' had the EX (1984) designation and the 75 start to the six digit number.

To tell if an earlier Murena has had a genuine Prep 142 modification, it is not that hard for anyone that knows the cars well.  It really should have the type approval sticker next to the chassis plate, but that could have been removed of course.  The obvious external sill extensions and rear wing could have been fitted to any car, and could be copies.  Or a genuine car might not have them (personal taste).  But if the engine modifications are not genuine they should be easy to spot.  A genuine Prep 142 kit used a unique inlet manifold with 15 degree incline so that the unique airbox sits above the fuel tank; it used twin Solex 40 ADDAE carbs. (the 'S' used twin Solex 40 ADDHE); it has a thermostat extension housing; a different water pipe under the inlet manifold because the original was coolant heated and the twin sidedraught carb. manifold was not; it even has a different dipstick tube.

I would suggest that if a Murena has been modified but not using the original kit, then it will most likely have twin Webers or Dell'Ortos which is the first giveaway.  In case the original Solex have been changed, does the leftmost intake sit above the fuel tank?  It will on a genuine manifold.  On a 'fake' it is unlikely to have the original airbox or air filter.  But of all the things that I doubt would be changed, would be the coolant pipe or the dipstick tube!  Those for me would be the most positive indications.

As for the camshaft...  That is always going to be difficult to prove without stripping and measuring, unless you know how a standard Murena 2.2 performs and can easily tell on road test that it is better.  And it is easy if you know how a standard 2.2 goes, to tell if the camshaft is better.

This still doesn't tell you if it is a genuine Prep 142 cam.  It could be any fast road cam - Holbay, Piper, Kent, Politecnic ...  However, the chances are if it has any of these fitted they will all be better than the standard and possibly better than the Prep 142/"S' cam too.

For anyone unfamiliar with the car, simply take a few photos of the carb./inlet/manifold/airbox areas and email me.  I should be able to tell you from those.

Roy

Roy, you prove yourself invaluable as usual - thanks!

Happy Newyear !

/Lennart