MatraSport Forum

I'm going to try and fit an Alfa 2.0 twin spark engine in my 2.2 Murena
I want to make it a road legal trackday car. (definitely not a comfy cruiser)
So I have lots of questions and I'm hoping the good people on this forum can help me out a bit.
The most pressing question at this moment is; Should I use a subframe like the v6 conversion or mount it to the chassis like the original engine?

(http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n544/wobbe98/DSCN0395.jpg)
(http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n544/wobbe98/DSCN0412.jpg)
(http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n544/wobbe98/DSCN0411.jpg)

Why the 2.0 Twinspark?.. there are a lot of MUCH better engines to use!

I think most Alfisti would disagree with that statement :)
I'm not a member of that cult but I do think the 2 liter 8v twinspark is a great engine.
But if there are so manny other better engines please name them. My 1.6 might be in for a new drivetrain.
But stick to the 4 cillinder inline lumps. I'm not interested in V-whatever strait 5/6 boxer or rotery engines.

For the 1.6  Murena the Peugeot XU 1.9 Gti series would be my first choice. They are supposedly some of the simplest engines to fit as they share a common engine mount with the talbot unit. Some of the people here has done this conversion so you would not be starting from scratch either. and I think Carjoy in Holland can help you out too.
Apart from that these engines are also cheap to buy, easy to maintain, and tuning parts are abundant!.

I like the box that you have for testing :D

If you need a sub frame or not is difficult to say for those of us who have not seen you test set up. Are you able to connect the Alfa engine to the Murena’s points for engine mounts?
Further 1.6 and 2.2 Murena chassis are different in the engine compartment.

Hans

The peugeot engine has been put in manny 1.6 Murena's.
And if you want to keep the fueltank this is a good sollution.
But I have 2.2 and don't mind moving the fuel tank to the front of the car.
I also think that the alfa engine wil beat the peugeot engine. (MI 16 excluded)
I've considered Honda since I loved my CRX but all Honda's seem to have the gearbox on the wrong side.
I guess a subframe would be easier since there are not that manny points to mount an adapter.

Re Honda powered Murena. Check this out:
http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php/topic,1812.0.html

(http://emoticons.sweb.cz/icq/Smiley14.gif)

Interesting  link about the honda engine to bad there are no pictures. Would have loved to see some photos. But such a setup would be to expensive for my budget and way to powerful for my limited driving skills. But I will reconsider a Honda engine when my 1.6 engine dies.

@michaeltalbot; I don't get your reply.

The Honda pictures are there. You need to be logged in as a member to see the pictures. ;)

Think that You don't want my reply at real  ;D

Just few facts:

AR 2,0 TS - 148 bhp, 181 Nm
Matra 2,2 S - 144 bhp, 187 Nm

Conversion costs for 2,0 TS - min. 1000,-E (axleshafts, el.fuelpump, silenblocs, exhaust, electrics, etc.)
Costs for Murena 2,2 S - max. 1000,-E (carbs 500,-E, "S" cam rebrushing 220,-E, new "Turbo" gasket 50,-E, lightening flywheel + work cca 150,-E)

Sorry but  ???

Murena S in good condition and setting is a very fast car. I can do the very simillar time on the circuit as BMW M3, Audi Quattro 2,1T, Mercedes 2,5 Cosworth, Porsche 911 3,0, in acceleration last time I beated Mercedes E500 W124 (330PS) and he was doing as much as possible, we are friends. Problem is, that every second Murena owner thinks about tuning instead of putting his engine into a perfect condition (which could gain more bhp than "racing" air filter, tuned exhaust or installation of another - old - engine).
I know, that You have allready bought that AR engine, and You won't stop Your project, also that it is Your car, so do what You think, but I tried to explain You that it will be so much work, money and time wasted for very doubtful result...

Actually it's even worse. The Alfa only produces 143 HP
And besides that I have a spare 2.2 lump laying around. I would only need a fast cam to create and S engine.

But I get it, you are a bit of a purist. That's o.k. Me I like the engineering challenge and I love to see other people modify their car. Although some creations are horrific, their passion and ingenuity is what counts.
Let me ask you one rhetorical question; What would you do when we run out of oil and the only way to drive your Murena would be to convert it to a ethyl or electric?
Would you still want to enjoy you car or would you just stare at it in the driveway?
Selling, of course is not an option :)

I know this thetoric question was not for me, but personally I would take out the windshield, hitch up a 4-span of Clydesdales and cruise around town. 4 hp is plenty for such a light car and I want others to have time to see and enjoy its beauty.  ;D

You're very right, I'm a purist  ;) my biggest sin is using those beautifull BBS RS1 15" rims on my Murena, but I have original repainted wheels with new Bridgestones for meetings  ;)

I understand Your motive, but if You're going to invest Your time, effort and money, wouldn't it be for something more "efectivelly"? I mean - one friend of mine is working as a design engineer for VW group, Mercedes-Benz, etc. He will never buy a new car because he knows how much they are ripped off because of costs reductions everywhere (for ex. they are welding the chassis as short time as possible with as small voltage as is enough for NCAP tests, metal sheets are thiner and thiner and everything is done for minimise the production costs... but that's Off Topic). He owns a lot of older cars, also one Murena 2,2 which is under "reconstruction" - possibilities of my friend are very wide so he decided to improove that old 2,2 Chrysler-Simca engine. Used forged pistons, lightened piston rods, special bearings, exhaust is calculated exactly with camshaft and bigger carburetors, stiffers valve springs, etc. He spent cca 6000,- Eur and reached 230PS at 7400 rpm (if I remember good). But from outside, the engine will still look as the original ;)
I saw a lot of modifications of Murena, some of them really far away from Murenas idea (those Honda, Mazda, Ford, etc. engines), some acceptable for me (Peugeot 505 Turbo - what in fact is an evolution of our 2,2 engine, 1,9 GTI or Mi16 - as evolution of 1,6 Murena), some of them done very cleanly, some of them are stupidly difficult and "piggy" (if it has the right sense in English language ;) ), but realy think that there have to be some "plus" at the end suitable to Your effort.

And to Your question  8) I really don't believe to all these theories. Look how long we had to spend money for ecobusiness in the name of CO2 and heating of the Earth. All emision fees, taxes and restrictions, and now scientists found that CO2 aren't too much wrong and also that in fact we are going to face small Ice age. I think that there are some cycles in weather and human effect is irrelevant, or I have to say - personal car traffic, which is most taxed, has the minimal influence on it. One big ship engine produces in 1 hour same ammount of CO2 as one car in 5 years, and I have read that the biggest 10 transatlantic ships are producing more emisions than all cars all over the world. Than count airplanes, factories in China with no filters and controls, and many more. And Europoliticians will say that we have to pay, that our car produces more CO2 than new one? Do I have to believe them? It's only (eco)business, like it was for all times in history, people are still the same, so I don't think that we will be alive when there will be only electromobiles ;) Oil gigants will do everything to keep us dependent on them and I don't believe to politicians that there is not enaugh of oil. And at the worst, I could make a covered GPL modification ;)

PS: but back to Murena - if You want I can find a contact to one firm in Belgium, where You'll send Your 2,2 cam + 220,-E and they will send You the 2,2 S cam - I did the same.

The engine from my current Peugeot 207 is a little gem and would be great in a Murena.  I believe it is the same engine as that in the BMW Mini.  The engine is so smooth and feels powerful even although mine is only the 88Kw model.  If more power is required one of the turbo variants would make the Murena a fast and beautiful car in my opinion.
regards
Ron Murrell
Sydney

@michaltalbot. Each his own I guess. But don't get me started on CO2 emissions or air borne solid particles. Those are just scams from our goverments to raise more taxes.
At this point I'm not interested in a fast cam, thanks for the offer. But you however might be interested in my spare 2.2 Tagora GLS engine. You will probably need it in time :)

@Murramor. Is the gearbox on the left side? On what side are the intake and exhaust manifolts? 88Kw would be enough for my 1.6. But the problem with most modern engines in probably the immobilizer. So you'll end up buying an expensive aftermarket ECU.

@Jon. Thanks for pointing that out. I had a good look at the pictures and they gave me some ideas. I even sent a PM  to the topic starter hopefully he'll respond to my questions.

 ;)  :D  think that we are at one in this case  8) where are You from? I live in Czech Republic.

I drive my Matra in the low counties.

LPG should work fine in such an old engine, and with the possibilities in programmable ECU's , I think it could be made to run very well .

Regarding your choice of engine, I'm with Michal as far as I can't see why you bother with the Alfa unit. It will be just as expensive to maintain as a 2.2 Murena.
But since you like the engeneering challenge I'd say... how about a VR6, or just for the hell of it.. a Rover V8? :)

politechnic N9TEA 400++  8)

I'm of the same mind - I don't like engine swaps by individuals, particularly since they rarely are correct from an engineering point of view - most really only consider if they fit physically.  However, if you really want to change to something else the VR6 has to be the one.  It is as small as a 'four' but is is a 'six' and has the inlet and exhaust on the correct sides to match the original powertrain; so it should be relatively easy to install, have more power and torque, be smooth like only 'sixes' can, and have room around it for maintenance...

Roy

Roy, you got to be joking.... :D

Being just to working on a Opel Ascona/Vauxhall Cavalier MKI 1,3 :o, the Murena enginebay can be considered anything less then a tight fit as is...
As someone here once said, working on the Murena will give you pain in muscels you didn't even know you had.  ;D

VR6 would be nice but this Alfa lump is more then enough for my limited driving skills. But in time, who knows.
I don't think you'll end up with more space to work in with any new engine. Unless you consider cutting of the boot.

(http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n544/wobbe98/whpracing/DSC04461.jpg)

(Sorry Michaltalbot, I can't be held responsible for any hart attacks you might suffer when seeing this)

More pics here: http://s1139.photobucket.com/albums/n544/wobbe98/whpracing/?start=all (http://s1139.photobucket.com/albums/n544/wobbe98/whpracing/?start=all)

I have only seen one Alpha V6 in a Murena and I don't recall if it provided more space for maintenance access, than the original 2.2. My experience is that in order to do work on the 2.2, you empty the boot, climb in, switch to your universal elbow and wrist joints  ;) and get at it. :D

If your joints are not of the universal type  ;) you sometimes have to make alternative solutions, such as the alternator belt tightening gadget shown in my post here: http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php/topic,1389.0.html (http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php/topic,1389.0.html)

I don't know about Michael, but I drooled when seeing the slide show on the site you refer. That is sweet. Definitely not purist, but easy is that to work on. ;D

I'm not going to have a heart attack, this is technically on really different level than just installing an old engine. As I wrote somewhere else - "So at least, I preffer to cutting out the boot and using the 2,2 Turbo with direct exhaust, good placed intercooler and clean made intake  ;) "

And that's just what these guys made with the yellow Murena - btw. I remember this Murena from YouTube - it was a blue smoking 1,6  :D Here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYAXl3rA8qc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYAXl3rA8qc)

If one moved the Pug 207engine to the rear of a Murena so it would still have one reverse gear and 5 forward, it would have the exhaust at the front next to the fuel tank and the inlet at the rear next to the boot.  The gearbox would be on your left as you stand at the rear of the car and look forward.

regards
Ron Murrell
Sydney, Australia

No I'm not.  After working in the trade for 40 years the Murena engine bay is, especially for a mid-engined car, roomy for working on.  You want to try working on many of the other modern cars.


You try working on an old pre-war car or some of the sixties models with wide flowing wings and a narrow engine bonnet.  You need to learn over but you mustn't damage the wings in any way, and even with wing covers that is easily done.  It's a back killer!  A Murena by comparison is easy.

As for the VR6 powertrain - I have measured one up and seen one out on a trolley, and there is little difference to a 2.2 standard setup.  That is why it is the obvious choice.  That 'six' really is as small as our 'four'.  Since it is also fuel injected, there is no carburettor to work on...

As I said I'm not in favour of swaps but space-wise this is almost ideal as both an upgrade to more power and smoothness yet without being a crammed in fit like the Alfa V6.

Roy

As all of my other cars are Alfas I would quite like an Alfa V6 in my murena but unless I write off my V6 gtv (no  :'( ) this is very unlikely to happen.  Our gtv twinspark produces 155 bhp from 2 litres but I would not go to the bother of swapping the 142 murena engine for 13 bhp (and the Alfa lump is heavy!)

After four years this is how far I am with my conversion..

(http://i568.photobucket.com/albums/ss126/matra-v6/DSCF5073.jpg)

The end is in sight now...

Wow!  ;D   What a beautiful job. Easily worth waiting 4 years for.

Indeed very beautiful! Unusual carpet thou....(haven't seen that orginal at least....)

It ain't a carpet, but nylon flocking over the bare steel. Looks good with the colour of my car and it won't curl up  anymore, so the isolation-tape at the bottom of the rear windws can be removed. :)

Smart idea.

How are your plans on moving to Norway coming along?

We are going to Norway end of September.... For a holiday only unfortunately......

As far as cars concerned we have everything settled. The Murena can be imported for a small amount (even with the V6) and our Avantime which has now just 5000 km on the clock is a 10 year old car concerned to toll so it is importable. (still cost a shitload of money, but so does a second-hand car in Norway)

Our last problem is selling our house. We give it some time, but we have a price we need to move to Norway that gets a little lower every month. As soon as anyone want to buy our house for this or lower we'll be gone! Can't wait to leave extually..

Hilsen,

Martijn

Actually I was partying with a dutch guy this weekend, intern at my friends work, driving a Land Rover. He loves being in Norway, as he can use the 4wd now and then.

For various reasons this project has been slumbering the past year.
But recently work resumed and the first results are here. The engine is running :)
Not in the car but in a test setup. It took some time to setup but in the long run it will probably save a lot of time getting in and out of the trunk of the car.
There are quite a few things to sort out but I'm pretty happy with this result so far.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri6LCg_4baE&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri6LCg_4baE&feature=youtu.be)

(http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n544/wobbe98/P5010037_zpsd2ed091a.jpg)
My test rig

(http://i1139.photobucket.com/albums/n544/wobbe98/P1020548_zps6cc893f9.jpg)
Oil spill because someone forgot to tighten the oilcooler lines.

Mine's driving now! Finally.....

(http://i568.photobucket.com/albums/ss126/matra-v6/My%20cars/Matra%20Murena%20V6/th_Murena-V6_zpsdd78bbc1.jpg) (http://i568.photobucket.com/albums/ss126/matra-v6/My%20cars/Matra%20Murena%20V6/Murena-V6_zpsdd78bbc1.mp4)

I am still testing it and are being very careful to see that everything is working fine. So I haven't fully tested the engine yet, but I can tell you that it is fast! It drives smooth as only a v6 will do and the power comes in at very low revs already...

Cheers,
Martijn