MatraSport Forum

Each model => Espace => Topic started by: jag on April 02, 2012, 12:18:51 pm

Title: Rad Replaced but further hel req'd
Post by: jag on April 02, 2012, 12:18:51 pm
Hi all  - managed to replace my rad finally, it's a pig of a job old rad jus wud'nt come out. Until i removed the intercooler flexi hose for the turbo. Refilled the coolant and bled it from 2 points. One on the radiator and the other on the matrix pipe on the passeger side near the battery. I ran her up for a good half hour, heater blowing nice hot air. Regarding the the two hoses on the radiator the one on the right hand side vertical entry got really hot but the horizontal entry hose on the left isn't as hot as the the right hand side one. Also my fans didn't come on.  The temp gauge inside got to 3 bars ( 4 is normal) and then wnet back to 2.  The espace manual shows 3 bleed points for the G8T engine, but i can only see 2. Can anyone tell me where this other bleed point is supposed to be. Also when do the fans kick in, as I said car was running for a good half hour (stationary) but no fans. Unless the temp sensor on the fan is faulty, as it came with the second hand rad. If I replace it with the one from mt original rad can I put some PTFE tape on to secure the join or is it best to get a new copper washer. Any help most appreciated, as I want to take my car to Sunny north Wales on Sunday. So the sooner someone can advice me, the better. Regards and thanks to all Jag

Title: Re: Rad Replaced but further hel req'd
Post by: BrianM on April 02, 2012, 06:07:06 pm
I would take the car for a drive with the coolant cap off. Take some coolant with you & stop after a few miles to top up, see if it needs topping up again after a few more miles. If not then put the cap on. Check that you have heat in both footwells & then you should be ok. Check level again next morning & before going on a long run.
If yours is dci then poss you will never hear the fans run unless sat in a city traffic in the middle of summer for half an hour or more. If it isn't getting to the right temp on the dash as it did before then it is because you have a better radiator. I think my fans run at around five or six indi's on the dash.
You would be best buying a new sender or checking the old ones with a meter, i'm sure there is a document in the vault that will give the specs.

Title: Re: Rad Replaced but further hel req'd
Post by: renaultbiler on April 02, 2012, 09:16:49 pm
Coolant cap off while driving would just result in loss of coolant as it will exit out of the bottle in this pressurised system.

Fill coolant in the exp bottle with heater matrix bleed open, when coolant starts to come out close bleed valve.
Start the engine with exp cap off - rev to 2500 rpm and keep it reving while adjusting level in expansion bottle - after approx 4 minutes close cap with level near minimum.
G8T must then be run at 2500 rpm for about 20 minutes to free the system of any air, this should start the radiator fans when system is ready. Then check level, should be near to Max level. Adjust level when cooled down.

Title: Re: Rad Replaced but further hel req'd
Post by: jag on April 02, 2012, 11:29:44 pm
Many thanks for  that Renault biler - I will try your mentioned procedure tomorrow. I did try running the engine today for about 20/25 mins  I did rev it for about 10 mins out of the 20/25 and did notice that the Rad was very hot  and  noticed some smoke coming from around the rad due to heat coming from it. The fans didn't come on to cool it  and noticed that the temp was only 3 bars.  I was wondering whether to just replace the temp sensor from the second hand rad with my original one. Also I take it the plug for the sensor can only really go on one way , as it has 3 pins, I will check it again tomorrow, as it was getting dark  when i re-connected this plug.  Many thanks for all your help , you too Brian. I will keep you guys posted on how I get on - Regards Jag

Title: Re: Rad Replaced but further hel req'd
Post by: BrianM on April 03, 2012, 06:01:28 pm
"Coolant cap off while driving would just result in loss of coolant as it will exit out of the bottle in this pressurised system"

Sorry but that is garbage!

If the head gasket had gone maybe it would chuck all the coolant out but this only gets pressurised when hot. Yes you may loose some coolant if you have a large air lock, but rather this than overheating the system without coolant.
I only said to drive a few miles, this will not cause the system to get hot enough to pressurise the system.
I have been a mechanic for 30 yrs & this has always been my preferred method of bleeding a system.

Title: Re: Rad Replaced but further hel req'd
Post by: renaultbiler on April 03, 2012, 08:05:22 pm
Well its not my way, Renault system is a sealed pressurised system and its never recomended to drive anything with system open. Driving with cap off will result in cooland escaping bottle as it heats up and we dont want that as it will result in too little fluid left when its cooled down and potentially creating new air pockets. Ofcourse depending on the time and temperature of the engine.

I try to follow Renault spec when bleeding as that always seems to give the best result.

Title: Re: Rad Replaced but further help req'd
Post by: jag on April 03, 2012, 10:47:40 pm
Still no joy guys - Renaultbiler i tried your method and just when I thought i was home and dry Upon running the espace on approx 2500 rpm  I had got to about the 11th minute when the rad started to smoke again and didnt stop. I let the car run for about another 5/6 minutes. The temp was 4 bars which is when it's normal. But still no fans and Rad still smoking alot now, i switched off the as I thought I could hear something whistling in the background, hope it wasn't the turbo or water pump. But my temp remained normal during the smoking. I even replaced the temp sensor from my original rad in case the one on the replacement rad was faulty. I did try the car later on about 30 mins later and the whistling noise had gone.  Now I was thinking the only reason the Rad would smoke would be if it was leaking which it is not. Or because it's a second hand rad it may have a blockage within, the reason why i say that is that when it was smoking the top of the rad was absolutely roasting hot and the bottom was only luke warmish. Any thoughts or ideas any one ?  My fans were defo working on the old rad, i know that for sure !

Title: Re: Rad Replaced but further hel req'd
Post by: jag on April 03, 2012, 10:52:33 pm
Sorry I forgot to mention that because the bottom of the rad wasn't that hot, the temp sensor will never kick in to trigger the fans to come in, hence the rad just keeps on getting hotter due to possible blockage  ?

Title: Re: Rad Replaced but further hel req'd
Post by: William123 on April 04, 2012, 03:48:42 pm
Hi, did you reverse flush the replacement rad before fitting ? could be sediment in the bottom ?

Title: Re: Rad Replaced but further hel req'd
Post by: jag on April 04, 2012, 06:34:16 pm
just a quick water flush but not thoroughly enough , funny how i was thinking the same thing that it could be stuff at the bottom from over the years as it is a second hand rad .if i disconnect the hoses to the rad instead of taking it out of the car , i could flush the rad with a hose.Thanks for your input will give it a go Regards Jag.

Title: Re: Rad Replaced but further hel req'd
Post by: BrianM on April 04, 2012, 09:14:08 pm
with the filler cap off & a full system of coolant, & cold, remove the bottom hose. Do you get a gush of coolant from both hose & rad? May give you some indication of flow. Are you getting a return of fluid to the bottle through the small hose at the top. You should get some heat at the side of the rad as it flows. If no flow then maybe the water pump impeller has sheared. Are you replacing the rad due to a overheat having blown the old rad?

Title: Re: Rad Replaced but further hel req'd
Post by: jag on April 04, 2012, 10:35:35 pm
I was replacing the rad because it had been leaking for a while now, but the leak was getting worse recently. It was ok whilst I was driving the car but upon parking overnight my coolant was getting just below  the min mark  in the coolant bottle.

Title: Re: Rad Replaced but further hel req'd
Post by: jag on April 07, 2012, 01:26:23 pm
Hi again, could anyone tell me how much difference there is supposed to be between the top  and bottom of the rad. In degrees roughly, i have been informed that the top shud be about 10 degress hotter than the bottom of the rad, once the engine has got upto temperature. With the one I installed the bottom is hardly getting luke warm, that is where the temp sensor is so my fans will never come in. The only thing i can think of is a blockage within the rad. You see i dont want to spend nearly 200 on a new rad and find I have the same problem. I have tried disconnecting the 3 hoses and tried reverse flushing the rad , I seem to get water coming out of the other holes aswell as from the bottom drain hole. The only other option was to put my original rad back in and try it out just to make sure that my fans still kick in as they did prior to taking it out. It seems a worthless try but don't really konw what else to try. Any one any ideas ?

My espace has never been off the road for this long since I've owned her from Oct 2001. The wifey is missing driving 'La Espace'.

Title: Re: Rad Replaced but further hel req'd
Post by: ross on April 07, 2012, 07:43:30 pm
Hi Jag,
Just read your thread and it appears that no one has answered your original question. "can anyone tell me where this other bleed screw is ?".
There is a bleed screw for each heater matrix, you seem to have found the one for the passenger side, behind the Battery, and there is a matching bleed screw in about the same location on the driver side.
You can just about get your hand in over the inlet manifold and get your fingers on the knurled knob in the same manner as the passenger side.
If it hasn't been moved in a long time it can be very hard to move with your fingers, in this case try using a dumpy screwdriver, if you can wiggle it in there.
If you have a silted up radiator then all the bleeding will not help cure this problem, but if it is an air lock, I have rigged up a piece of old radiator hose, big enough to fit over the coolant filler, and long enough to give a head of water, so that as you open each bleed point the head of water should force the air out.
I usually did this operation with the front of the car up on ramps to help the air rise to the radiator and out of the radiator bleed point.
Hope this is of help.

Title: Re: Rad Replaced but further hel req'd
Post by: jag on April 08, 2012, 09:53:50 am
Hi Ross, thanks for your reply.  Unfortunately I am off to wales today until Thursday. So upon my return I will try what u have told me to try. I'm going in a peugeot 206 with me,missus and 3 kids so it's going to be a hell of a squeeze compared to our spacious espace. Can't wait to have our Espace back.
Regards Jag

Title: Re: Rad Replaced but further hel req'd
Post by: ross on April 09, 2012, 09:16:46 pm
Hi jag,

I must be getting demented in my old age, as I have just put the photo attached on another thread, by mistake.
The photo shows the bleed screw on the drivers side, assuming you are one of us and drive on the correct side of the car.
It is very tight to get in over the inlet manifold on the 2.2dti, but just about manageable, but if the bleed screw decides to be tight it can be difficult to undo unless you can get a dumpy screwdriver on it.
Best of luck.

Title: Re: Rad Replaced but further hel req'd
Post by: jag on April 20, 2012, 04:45:03 pm
Hi again to all, the rad saga continues :-

I managed to get hold of another radiator, virtually new about 4 months old.  Stuck it in, bled the system as been informed and this time I actually flushed the whole system out with a graden hose system to force any air out of the sysytem.  But still the new Rad starts to smoke from the right hand side in the middle / bottom part as soon as the car gets to about 4 bars which is the normal temp after abt 15-20mins.   The temp doesn't overheat but the smoke seems worrying as the bottom of the rad is still cold so my fans will never come on.

Now the only thing that comes to mind is that before I went about to replace the rad, when I lost nearly all my coolant from the expansion tank, I didn't have any premixed type 'D' coolant and just used water and carried on using water for about 2/3 days didnt do much mileage within these 2/3 days. Then I brought some red coolant which I had to mix with water and used that, it seemed fine. Didn't notice anything unusual about the car, used it normally. Didn't get stuck in any traffic jams so unsure whether my fans would have worked in that situation or not.  Now i've been using the red coolant since starting the rad replacement works. 
My brother in law who is an 'AA patrol man ,now mentions to me that that you shouldn't mix te two colours a they can turn into a jelly type substance.   
My worry now is that I may have a type of blockage within the cooling system.  What I need to know now is thatdo i disconnect all the hoses and flush out the system to try to clear out anything that may be stuk or am I in deeper trouble than that.  Pls any help most appreciated.  Regards Jag

Title: Re: Rad Replaced but further hel req'd
Post by: jag on April 20, 2012, 04:54:24 pm
Sorry Ross, But I did look around the drivers side and couldn't see anything , but will try again with a mirror. My steering wheel is on the right hand side so I assume u mean we drive on the correctside of the road  I didn't see your foto until now and will check again. But I did notice another bleed SCREW like the one in yur foto on the right hand side hose where it splits into 2 parts a thick and thin piece. I am not talking abt the left hand hose with the tyre type bleed screw but the right hand side one. But I broke the damn screw half in and am unable to remove it or tighten it, its leaking there so now I gotta replace that hose or see if I can remove the broken part of the screw thread.  I broke it after the rad had been smoking as I didn't notice it before.  Thanks anyway  will keep trying, hope I havn't damaged anything within.

Regards Jag

Title: Re: Rad Replaced but further hel req'd
Post by: ross on April 25, 2012, 09:06:37 pm
Hi Jag,
sorry to hear your still having waterworks trouble.
I did much the same thing with the bleed screw infront of the thermostat housing, but managed to seal it with some Fernox sealant and a cable tie to hold the head of the bleed screw down.
It is still working nearly 2 years later, so I can recommend it.

Title: Re: Rad Replaced but further hel req'd
Post by: jag on May 24, 2012, 01:42:52 pm
Hi 2 all - it'S been a while since I last had a look at the espace.  Put everything back to together after finally flushing the system out with a garden hose. Refilled with coolant and replace thermostat as my prevous one was taking too long to open up. At least with the new thermostat the whole of th rad is now getting hot including both hoses. The temp goes to 4 bars (normal) but the rad starts to smoke and don't want to leave car running too long like that. But thge damn fans won't come on and the rad starts to smoke / steam. So is there still air in the system ?
I couldn't find the other bleed screw on the driver side for th Heater Matrix only the one on the passenger side.

I have tried to short out the fan temp switch and the left hand fan does operate. So how can i test the temp senor on the rad just in case it is not faulty ????  Any ideas pls

So put all the car back together and going to try it out as was suggested by BrianM to drive it with the filler cap off and see if clears out any trapped air. Will try that out, but just noticed the my oil pressure light is now illuminating on the dash all the time. Since bleeding, etc, I did get alot of water all over the engine when doing this procedure. Is it poss I may have got water on the oil pressure switch ? If so where is the oil pressure switch, the car sounds absolutely normal ? Any help most appreciated - Regards Jag

Title: Re: Rad Replaced but further hel req'd
Post by: BrianM on May 26, 2012, 12:06:47 pm
I would replace the fan switch if the area around it is too hot to touch. I think it is just a bimetal on/of switch. The car should only need the fans on in the heat of summer if you get stuck in traffic. You could of course turn the aircon on (if you have it) to activate the fans.

Title: Re: Rad Replaced but further hel req'd
Post by: jag on May 28, 2012, 02:37:11 pm
Hello all,
Great news is that my Rad has finally stopped smoking and my Cooling fan works, all is well in that dept. But my Oil pressure light keeps on coming on (red one meaning low oil pressure ). I have took it for a spin for about 4/5 miles. Didn't hear any unusual noises coming from the engine and it seems to pick up speed all ok.  It had been parked up since 1st April when I started the Rad replacement works. It was parked on a slight incline, so I checked the Oil and it was in between the min and max,so I topped it up a bit, but Damn light still on.
I have pulled the plug off the switch in case I might have got water on it or  in it. When I was bleeding the coolant previously umpteen times. But the Switch Plug looks dry
I was intending to test the switch in situ, but can't get my meter probes into the connectors on the switch due to clearance between the switch and Rad.  I know a new switch is only about 7/8 from GSF car parts.
My intention is to replace the switch and after  replacing that if my light is still on, then I will have to get the Oil pressure checked with a gauge.
Any one else have this problem with a MK3 Espace ?  Or does anyone have any other info / reasons as to why my Oil pressure light has only started to come on during the rad replacement works. I am going camping on Sunday and there is no way I can fit all my Gear in a Peugeot 206 with 2 Adults and 3 kids. So help urgently needed please

Regards Jag

Title: Re: Rad Replaced but further hel req'd
Post by: jag on June 02, 2012, 11:08:01 pm
Hello again to all - Managed to sort out my oil light, it was a dodgy Oil pressure switch.  Well pleased with that.
But I have a problem with my heater blower, it's been  ok for a while now. But somedays the blower does'nt work. The lights on the control panel on the switch all work but no hot or cold air being blown at all. I've been meaning to take the dash apart to have a look but  it's been fine until now. Was working before and after the rad replacement but it's decided to stop working again. Just as I am about to go camping tomorrow in the rain.  Has anybody had similar problems like  mine ?  If so is there anything in the Vault regarding Heater problems. Any help most appreciated as always - Regards Jags

Title: Re: Rad Replaced but further hel req'd
Post by: renaultsan on June 14, 2012, 03:47:21 pm
I would suggest that you make sure that the fan switch is working, that can be tested easily. Also test the fans by disconnecting the connector to the loom and applying battery power, if the fan does not run at that point, change the fan. You might also have a look at the thermostat, it may work to a point but not open fully or it may stuck in the closed position. A blocked radiator is still a possibility but I think you should start with the operation checks for the radiator fan switch and the fans. Does your radiator have a separate filler cap? my 1990 Espace does and filling the system has to started by filling the radiator and replacing the cap and only then add water via the expansion bottle. The bottle should be raised above the level of the radiator whilst this is being done. Once full, refit the bottle, start the engine and run for a couple of minutes to allow the level to stabilise in the system. One more thing (the Columbo bit) make sure your heater valve is fully open to hot , if not it is possible to get an air lock in the heater matrix.