MatraSport Forum

Each model => Bagheera => Topic started by: andyowl on May 10, 2012, 09:22:13 pm



Title: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on May 10, 2012, 09:22:13 pm
I have just started work on fitting the larger Wade Supercharger to my competition Bagheera, "Baggy Joe".

I plan to take lots of photos and keep you up to date.

The Shorrock Supercharger has done me very well and I plan to fit it to "Chalky" the competition Fiat 126 (1973 edition) we use in AutoSolo events. A 650cc Fiat engine with a blower for a 1600cc Ford engine. Should be interesting but it is not a Matra! I may sneek a picture in later if I might be excused!

The Wade Supercharger (around 1965???) was intended for a Rover/USA based 3.5litre V8. The plan is to get more mixture through the standard Simca 1.6 valves and see if we can get more power.

Back on the case!

Andy Owler


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on July 04, 2012, 09:39:05 pm
This message is also on the Murena section - it will be obvious why!

I am having a struggle with a (single) 1.4 Bagheera carb fitted onto my new Wade Supercharger. I cannot get the engine to run below 2,000 r/m and the choke is 50% on at that time.

Reduce the choke below 50% and the engine slows down and dies. I have opened the idle jet adjusting screw to the point where it is almost falling out and it did allow the engine to slow down from the 3,000r/m speed which was the slowest I could get it to run when I started.

Over the month since it last ran I have improved the gaskets to the point where I can be reasonably confident that there are no inward air leaks. The manifold gauge is showing about 50% vacuum at 2,000 r/m.

Could somebody tell me the jets used by the 1.6 Murena engine please? Maybe I need bigger main jets??

Thanks.. Andy


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: JL on July 05, 2012, 02:13:57 pm
Hi Andy

Larger mains will not help at idle, I would try and use a single carb or even better be adventurous - fuel injection - this can be mapped very accurately for fuel delivery and ignition advance!

Good Luck
John


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on July 05, 2012, 02:49:45 pm
"Main jets are not the solution".... somebody else told me that too!

I will try and fit the jets from an old Murena carb I have and see if that helps. Southern Carburettors in Wimbledon should keep new jets I am told, but Wimbledon is a place to be avoided at the moment! (Something to do with tennis I expect!) Next week will be better but I am getting married on July 14th so I may have other things to do too!

Thanks for the suggestion though.

Fuel Injection on a supercharger, there's a thought.

Andy


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 05, 2012, 03:44:00 pm
Joining the "larger jets is not the solution", I too will suggest that you might be on the wrong path here. For starters, I dont recall you posting a photo of your setup. But since it seems you're using the standard bagheera carbs, I assume you have the carbs under pressure. Lotus did get a twin Dellorto setup like that to work (though with a turbo), but only with rubber gaskets to completely seal the carbs to make them air tight. I recall you got your previous setup working with an SU carb on the inlet side. Can't you reuse that setup?

Congrats on your forthcoming marriage!

Anders


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 06, 2012, 07:28:44 am
I just saw your photo of the installation on the Murena thread - ok, so you have got the carb on the inlet side of the supercharger. The problem with using the standard carb is that it's not only designed for the engine size, but to make correct emulsions with the specific pulsations etc that the Bagheera engine has. You can't put a turbo or supercharger after the existing carb and assume it will still make the right mixture. In this case it's obviously too lean. I'm sure you can get it set up right - but you might be better off with the SU carb. The way they are designed make them much easier to set up without a rolling road. Theoretically, you might get better performance with the Weber, but probably less so with the supercharger.

So my advice here is to fit another SU carb on this installation - or go for a larger downdraught Weber (a 40 or 45) and have it set up professionally.

Have you considered fitting a lambda meter in your exhaust?

Good luck, Andy

/Anders


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: JL on July 06, 2012, 04:42:32 pm
Injection !!

http://www.msextra.com/feature-xref.html

Regards
John


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: Spyros on July 06, 2012, 08:32:11 pm
Hi Andy,

Congratulations !  ;)
I've allways heard that highly tuned engines have higher revving idle speed, like 2000 rpm.
Did you try to adjust the ignition ? I believe it might help a lot.

Regards


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on July 31, 2012, 09:28:30 pm
Baggy Joe runs OK!

I took him out this evening with the old 2" (50mm) SU carb fitted.

We are getting 0.8bar boost pressure compared with the 0.45bar with the Shorrock blower and the same carb. That is a 78% increase in boost pressure!

The noise is better too. Less mechanical thrash without the eccentric rotor of the Shorrock and the lack of two universal joints and two lay-shaft bearings must also help.

The carb top is very close to the glass inside surface and there is a witness mark where the float chamber has impacted the rim of the hatch. Extra clearence needed! Right above the exhaust manifold!

Pics attached.

Andy


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 02, 2012, 08:07:30 pm
That's great to hear, Andy!

It looks, hmmm..., powerful! :D

/Anders


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on August 02, 2012, 08:12:49 pm
[quote author=Anders Dinsen ....... "Have you considered fitting a lambda meter in your exhaust?"

This will tell me the Air fuel ratio or the oxygen content of the exhaust???

Andy


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 02, 2012, 10:18:22 pm
This will tell me the Air fuel ratio or the oxygen content of the exhaust???

It will give you the air/fuel ratio. There are several available on the market, some with computer connections and other logging features (so you can correlate with RPM and throttle position, for example), others just have a lambda display which you can leave in permanently in your car.

/Anders


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on August 23, 2012, 01:43:30 pm
We have a working Wade Supercharger at last! Rolling Road test figures below.
The Boost pressure at the moment is 12psi (0.82bar) whereas the Shorrock blower produced 7.7psi (0.5bar).

We should be able to increase the boost pressure by having a smaller pulley on the blower and/or a larger crankshaft pulley. A good free-flowing exhaust system will help further still.

Fuel injection we are told will give another 10 hp and water injection when on full boost would allow a higher compression ratio and more power without burning pistons.

I am pleased with the 37% power increase over the standard Murena 1592cc engine fitted with the Bagheera twin carbs. More would be better still and a 50% increase remains my objective.

But for now we are off to Etretat tonight for the Hill Climb on Saturday and Sunday. Keep it on the Black Stuff!


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on August 23, 2012, 01:47:14 pm
Sorry, image too large. A new smaller version below!

Andy


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: Spyros on September 03, 2012, 09:59:29 pm
But for now we are off to Etretat tonight for the Hill Climb on Saturday and Sunday. Keep it on the Black Stuff!

And ? Good results ?


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on September 04, 2012, 11:31:04 am
Baggy Joe was 42nd out of 54 finishers! Since I am usually around 99th out of 100 I am pleased with the result! The French organisers are very hospitable and we hope to go again next year. The entry list was much shorter than previous years - a sign of the times I regret.

The good news is that I have realised that BJ's 121hp is more than the Murena 2.2's 118 hp. Wow! He feels quick and with a great noise.

We nearly had a disaster when two of the three right hand engine mounting bolts fell out of the timing chain case. I regret that it was probably my fault as I remember throwing the engine mount together in the rush to get to Prescott and I probably forgot to tighten them fully. We raided a friend's spares box and with the help of another friend jacked up the engine and replaced the bolts together with blue Loctite! Needs checking again through the right-hand wheel arch.

Andy


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: Spyros on September 05, 2012, 03:13:07 pm
Baggy Joe was 42nd out of 54 finishers! Since I am usually around 99th out of 100 I am pleased with the result! The French organisers are very hospitable and we hope to go again next year. The entry list was much shorter than previous years -

A pity. You could then have been 42nd out of 100 !  :D


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on September 05, 2012, 05:57:10 pm
I'd be glad with 84th out of 100!

Andy


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on October 06, 2012, 01:40:11 pm
Oh Dear, trouble again!

I blew the head gasket on Baggy Joe two weeks ago at the Harewood Hill Climb in Yorkshire. It failed between #1 and #2 cylinders with evidence that it was thinking about doing the same thing between #3 and #4!

A weak mixture combined with too much welly for too long and a long list of other possible contributory factors need to be addressed!

The general question is this:- Is it better to tune (or supercharge in my case) a 1442 or 1592 engine?

Mick Ward (Simca Club UK) suggests that the extra material between the cylinder walls makes the 1442 version preferable. It seems to make sense to me. Your thoughts would be appreciated.

I am thinking of having the surplus material in the combustion chamber removed to increase the combustion chamber volume and thereby reduce the "decompression plate" thickness and maybe eliminate the need altogether. Removing the sharp edges is also desirable as they tend to overheat first and contribute to the risk of pre-ignition. Comments?

I notice that the engine gasket set for the bottom half of the 1592cc engine is also suitable for a Citroen 1117cc engine. I didn't know there was any similarity to another manufacturer's engines other than Fiat. Is this news to you too or maybe just the wrong gasket set?

Andy



Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: Spyros on October 07, 2012, 02:01:03 pm
Aren' every aftermarket compressed engine ending like that, one day or another ?
At least you didn't blew a cylinder and on these engines, exchanging a cylinder head is very easy  ;)

I tend to disagree that starting with a 1440 cc engine would be saffer.
The 1590 cc engine having equidistant cylinders, maintain a reasonable tickness of materials between the bores. On a 1440, sometimes the distance is bigger but not for all cylinders.

If it would be that easy, I'd send you a spare VW KR cylinder head already prepared.
The compression is much lower due to the shape of the chambers. So no decompression plate needed.
But, a lot of work to adapt it (belt vs chain)

I'd think of
- lowering the compression rate by removing material on the piston tops and cylinder chamber
- Going for a solid copper cylinder gasket (thicker)
- adding copper ring around the bores (is there enough thickness ?)


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on October 09, 2012, 10:32:20 am
I'd be very interested in seeing a picture of the VW head! Could that be organised?

I will delay doing any work on the 1592cc engine or preparing my spare 1442cc engine for installation until then.

Getting the head from you: Where are you in Belgium? A Eurostar Brussels day return is only 33 for a pensioner!

Everybody seems to be putting strange engines in old vehicles these days and I have resisted the temptation. But, who knows? A VW head on a Simca engine? Why not?

Liz let me drive her Audi S3 (2 litre) Quattro in the Sprint on Sunday (she was entered too). I was very pleased to find that my times were quite close to the Subaru WRX and Impreza  drivers. Encouraging! I was beginning to wonder if I was just "Past It" and would be better advised to hang up my helmet!


ANDY


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: bert1 on October 10, 2012, 05:41:26 am
Andy the ultimate solution is to "fire ring" your engine. My engine builder does this for all forced induction engines running more boost than stock or where SC is particularly high. My Fiat race engine is close to 14:1 and the standard gasket was never going to deal with that! Upon review of the 3 gaskets I had in stock for the Bagheera build we decided to do the same with that engine as well. Compression measured at a little under 11:1 and the standard gaskets, probably more than suitable at standard 9.5:1 were considered marginal. Locally he also did an Aronde "Rush" engine used in a Formula Junior racer. I hate blown head gaskets!

Ross regularly builds forced induction engines that hold >30psi with no leakage. Once done they seem to last forever - the only ones he has had to replace are where some other catastrophy (dropped valve etc) has damaged the ring itself. The rings have the top surface machined to a "W" shape to bite into the head. The fire rings in the stock gasket are removed and the block machined so the ring is parallel with the inside of the bore.

Of course the head gasket is not your only worry. Bore integrity (as discovered by Cosworth in the early Turbo days - there is a good youtube video of that you might have seen!) and the ability of valves and pistons to deal with pressure are also very important. I wouldn't trust a forced induction motor without forged pistons!

 It was hard enough to source a 1442 block down here in OZ - much less a 1592 - so I can't comment on the 1592, but the 1442 we bored to 78mm and the ultrasonic wall thickness test came up fine - the 1442 was also considered to have good block deck strength and nice short coolant "jackets" - I would think that a bored 1442 block (is this the same as a 1592?) would be fine for your purposes.

I can dig around for some photos to illustrate this post if you would like. I can also put you in touch with Ross directly if you want to discuss fire-ringing and you can't find someone to machine the rings locally (the block I suspect you would need to do in the UK!)

Keep us informed of progress!

I didn't know there was any similarity to another manufacturer's engines other than Fiat.

Andy can you provide some detail on which Fiat engine is similar to the 1294/1442/1592 engines? Apart from a few seals and the lifters I haven't seen much similarity?


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on October 11, 2012, 06:00:24 pm
Fiat and Simca connections, from Mick Ward, Simca Club UK..
My "FIMCA" is built from a FIAT 133 which was a SEAT built rehash of the old FIAT 850.  In 1961, when the SIMCA 1000 was introduced, FIAT and SIMCA collaboration was still going strong.  What became the SIMCA 1000 was, in fact, a rejected design study for the original FIAT 850.
  The basic layout of the two cars is very similar, with some parts being identical.  I'm using a SIMCA 1000 gearbox.  I've retained the original FIAT rear suspension and driveshafts which proved to be exactly the right length and use the same sliding block coupling into the Diff as the SIMCA.
   At the August Retro-Rides meeting, I managed 4 runs up Prescott Hill in it.  I'd fitted a set of Honda CBR 600 bike carbs (with the main jets drilled out to 1.5mm) and the 1294cc engine ran superbly on a Rallye 3 cam.
  The Chrysler takeover of SIMCA in the early 60's spelt the end of the FIAT/SIMCA link....It's ironic that FIAT now own Chrysler...!!!
Andy


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on October 11, 2012, 06:12:16 pm
Fiat and Simca, part 2, by Mick Ward of Simca Club UK...

The engine family the 1442 and 1592 belong to was SIMCA's own design that came out in 1967 with the launch of the front wheel drive 1118cc SIMCA 1100 and, in 1204cc form for the 1200S coupe.  A smaller 944cc version was fitted to the 1000 and 1294 (arguably the best of the bunch), 1442 and 1592 versions followed.

 The last FIAT derived engines were the pre '67 SIMCA 1000 engine (944cc) and the engine used in the 1300/1500 and 1301/1501 (replaced in 1975 by the Chrysler Alpine that used the familiar 1442).... The1501 etc engines were a development of the old Aronde 1290cc engines (Flash/Rush etc)  with FIAT 1100 origins and the early 1000 engines were based on the FIAT 850 unit.....both these engines used a centrifugal oil filter on the end of the crank.

Thanks Mick! Andy


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: bert1 on October 12, 2012, 05:34:56 pm
I knew of the fiat 1100/1300/1500 similarities to the Aronde motors (Fiats though only had 3 bearing mains - hence the desire by most to run Simca blocks in high performance applications). Interestingly my friend with the Formula Junior discovered the irony that despite the Simca's far superior bottom end, the head of the Fiat was a much better design with less "siamese-ing" of the ports. There were other detail differences however, not least the bore spacing. He persevered to mate the 1100 head with Rush block - but it was a lot of work. Its quite a weapon!

From reading Mick's description of the Simca 1100 series of engines it confirms my discovery that Fiat and Simca had little in common by this time. Fiat were busy introducing the new belt driven Lampredi engines - the twin cam  (1966 for the 124 Coupe and Spider) and the SOHC (1969 in the 128 Sedan) which of course became their mainstays until the mid/late 1990's.

Not surprisingly there were "legacy" engines - one that springs to mind was the 1600 pushrod engine fitted in all manner of cars as an "entry level" engine with the up-spec versions receiving the Twin Cams. I don't know that much about them - but there do appear to be some passing resemblances to the Aronde/1100 engines and they developed a reputation for being tough workhorses - although most now have been replaced with the TC's. It would be interesting to see if there is much scope to "hot up" Aronde motors with bits from this Fiat - most obviously would be the 8 port crossflow head....

Sorry Andy - didn't mean to turn your thread into a history lesson - more Supercharged Bagheera talk needed here! In fact its time to start my own thread to wreck as I picked up the "Super Bagheera" motor today - still a lot to do - but the bones are there now!


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on October 12, 2012, 07:20:56 pm
I have been less than diligent at watching this forum recently.

What is the "Super Bagheera" engine??? Is it described in another thread?

Andy


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: bert1 on October 26, 2012, 04:35:43 pm
Hi Andy - no - I should start a new thread for my car. Its been 19 years in the making - which must be a record to repair a slipping clutch!

My "Super" motor is now on the floor ready for installation. Its pretty much as "full on" as it can be - and still be suitable for road use. Fully forged bottom end, heavily worked head with big valves etc. Today I put down the coin for the fuel injection which is TWM throttle bodies, ECU is Haltech Sport 1000 with full wideband control and direct fire ignition. I like your supercharger system - but I'm more an atmo guy myself - and I'm not keen on carbys!

I have a lot of work to do before it goes in though so I'll be looking for some help along the way! I'll also need some guidance on where to get the bits I need, I imagine!

I'll start a thread so I stop destroying yours! Sorry!


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on October 26, 2012, 06:24:40 pm
It's all good stuff. Another approach is always good to read.

I'm still awaiting more info from Spyros ref his Golf 16V head (hint - hint!) but while I am interested in the use of a Peugeot Mi16 lump (it is related to Talbot/Simca after all!) I think I want to pursue the blower scheme until I can't go any further.

I have asked advice from the Lumenition staff ref their modules intended for use with supercharged engines to alter the ignition timing at high boost pressures. Nothing received yet! They claim that normal compression ratios can be used at up to 12psi (0.8bar) as I am getting at the moment. This would remove the need for a de-compression plate and a vulnerable component.

Andy


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: bert1 on October 27, 2012, 01:36:57 am
Andy programmable ignition is a snap these days. If you are handy with a soldering iron or know someone who is, you can even build one of these devices yourself eg:

http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=KC5442&form=CAT2&SUBCATID=965#11 (http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=KC5442&form=CAT2&SUBCATID=965#11)

This unit allows you to "build" a fully custom advance curve to suit yourself. You would "lock" the advance mechanism in your original distributor and let the controller do its thing. To me, for the price, that's about as good as it gets!


Off the shelf there are other units such as this:

http://www.allisonsautomotive.com/products.html (http://www.allisonsautomotive.com/products.html)

(scroll down to about 3/4 the way through). Mark's units allow you to run direct fire (ie no more distributor cap or rotor to wear). These ones use mechanical advance but have a simple adjustment. Not as sophisticated in terms of advance - but with the benefit of direct fire. Obviously some tinkering would be required to adapt the Fiat distributor to the Simca - but they aren't THAT dissimilar.

On pretty much all my cars I use the Haltech injection ECU to control ignition as well. Haltech used to offer an "ignition only" computer but I notice it has now been discontinued. I am sure other makers still offer them though. Might also be worth looking into "Megajolt Lt Jr" which is the ignition version of the "Megasquirt" DIY injection system.

http://www.autosportlabs.net/Main_Page (http://www.autosportlabs.net/Main_Page).

I have one of those systems here to play with for a friend who wants to retain carbys. It uses the Ford EDIS system (I believe fitted to Mondeo's and such) and a crank angle sensor on the front pulley as the basis and has full advance curve control. Its still in the box though so I can't give you any thoughts (yet) on this one.

I don't have any association with any of these sellers or products - they are just things that I have become aware of in my travels and thought might be worth looking at for you. Hope you found some of them useful.

I'm interested in the 16v head project too - although realistically I'm too far down the 8v simca path to go back. I notice in the ETAI book that Matra themselves did a 16v head for the 1294. Drooooooooool.  ;D

Cheers
Dave



Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on January 19, 2013, 08:05:09 pm
As you may read in the LSD thread the 1592cc engine I have been using in Baggy Joe is "Not worth spending money on" says my tuning man Dermot McGivern of "Power 4 Peanuts" in Hersham, Surrey.

We had dismantled the engine with the intention of having it balanced, the head and block skimmed where the blown gasket/de-compression plate had scored both surfaces, and several other things. Dermot degreased the components and started measuring the important bits. The cylinder bores are all of different sizes although nominally 0.4mm oversize and one was barrel shaped and not even straight. Three gudgeon pins had been fitted badly and the pistons were distorted and gripping the pin surfaces. They had turned blue with the heat caused by the friction! The fourth piston had a good gudgeon pin but the sides of the piston were scuffed and "picking up" on the sides below the pins - another sign of piston distortion! The head has several cracks between the valves. The camshaft lobes are badly worn. The crankshaft is worn but a good polish would improve that.  Not good news. I'll take pics of the damaged bits so you can recognise the problems if it happens to you!

I was lucky that the engine has lasted as long as it has! "Now for Plan B". See the next posting. Andy


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on January 19, 2013, 08:51:32 pm
After agonising about "what do we do now?" we decided to use the "new" 1442cc engine I bought from Peugeot around 1992. Peugeot were trying to empty their stores of old Simca parts and they offered these Bagheera engines to Matra and Simca Club members for 200 each still in their original wooden boxes. With 4 Bagheeras in the family it seemed a good idea and like many others members I bought one. I kept it in the "pit" under the garage floor and tripped over it constantly. The worry was that it might have corroded beyond use! It got wet when we had a fire in the pit while welding Baggy Rouge. The smoke was so thick we couldn't see the flames 1.5m below us! A water hose put the fire out but the bottom of the pit was 150mm deep in water! I feared for my "new" engine.

The new pics below show that it has survived very well. It was well oiled internally and externally and it is like new. In only one external area is there any sign  of slight rusting.

We stripped it down during this week and the parts go off for balancing on Monday. The head now needs stripping too ready for gas flowing. It is nice to be back working on Baggy Joe"  Andy


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: GP on January 20, 2013, 12:23:35 pm
The  "Spitfire Hunters" in Burma are not having too much luck. Could they have a look in your garage pit please?  ;D


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on January 20, 2013, 01:02:42 pm
I'm not sure we would get a Rolls Royce V12 Merlin in the back of a Baggy! Fun to try though!

Andy


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on January 20, 2013, 09:56:20 pm
Gasket  -  observations...

In stripping down both the new 1442cc head and the tired 1592cc head some interesting things were noted. New to me but probably not to most of this illustrious group, but here goes...

The 1592cc engine has the cylinders at a larger bore than the 1442cc but they are also moved further apart. This can be seen in the first picture below. It is amazing that Baggy Joe ran at all when we first started this process since he had been fitted with a 1442 head gasket onto a 1592 cc engine. There can have been very little gasket doing any sealing!

The exhaust manifold gasket for both engines has holes much larger than the exhaust ports as can be seen in the second picture. Why would they do that? We want to get much larger exhaust valves fitted. Maybe some vehicle has ports that large? Any suggestions? I should check the gasket against the exhaust manifold too!

I plan to get a special exhaust system made with 4 separate pipes and much larger bore to help get the supercharged exhaust gases away faster. Any experiences of doing this for a Bagheera? Andy


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: Spyros on February 08, 2013, 05:36:56 pm
Hi Andy,

I finally got access again. I was stupidly checking the send me the question checkbox

The gasket has to match the exhaust manifold and not the head exhaust ports.
It is normal to have a step there.
It's meant to get a venturi effect that will accellerate the gazes out of the head.
And also to counterbalance the pumping effect of the engine.
People who equalize the ports don't understand how the engine works.

Having said this, the sizes of the ports might not be ideal


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on February 09, 2013, 02:16:09 pm
Spyros wrote...
"...It's meant to get a venturi effect that will accellerate the gazes out of the head.."

I've heard that said before but a "venturi" has a smooth inlet, a rectricted middle and smooth and gradual outlet. It also causes a pressure loss (or Back-Pressure") which, in our case, will restrict the flow of gas away from the exhaust valve.

"Steps" are not generally considered good practice in fluid flow dynamics. I don't understand why they would be good here?

I always thought that the conventional wisdom was to make the ports (inlet and exhaust) match their manifolds.

Do you have any source references that I read to educate me on the subject before we (he, not I) start to remove metal from the exhaust ports? That should happen this week.

Andy


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: bert1 on February 11, 2013, 01:16:35 pm

Do you have any source references that I read to educate me on the subject before we (he, not I) start to remove metal from the exhaust ports? That should happen this week.

Andy

Andy this is the "bible" on the subject. It can be a tough read though. In places gets very technical.

http://books.google.com.au/books/about/The_scientific_design_of_exhaust_and_int.html?id=oIZTAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on February 13, 2013, 03:51:03 pm
I looked at "The Exhaust Bible" on Amazon (GBP 39) and decided that I would ask my "experts" about exhausts!

Dermot, the tuner, agreed that a "step" (= smaller size for the exhaust ports in the head and larger size for the exhaust pipe internal diameter) is used on "normally aspirated" engines to encourage a "pulse" of exhaust pressure which, at a particular engine speed will cause the gases in the pipe to resonate and increase the gas flow. This is used for example on F1 engines producing a useful power boost but over a very narrow rev band.

We are trying merely to enlarge the passage size and allow the exhaust gases to get out faster. A supercharged engine objective is generally not to be high reving but to produce greater torque all through the rev range.

Dermot has finished balancing the new engine and starts today on fitting larger exhaust valves. Progress! Andy


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: GP on March 02, 2013, 12:15:37 pm
Hi Andy,

Further to the disscussion on head and manifold interfaces I scanned a couple of pages from a tuning book I have which explains things simply.
 
"How to modify Ford S.O.H.C. engines" by David Vizard. ISBN 0 86343 0856.

Cheers,

Graham

P.S. How is the rebuild coming along?


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on March 03, 2013, 06:56:38 pm
The exhaust has been built and is ready to collect. I think it looks good, but time and the Rolling Road will tell us!

I have asked him to supply also a 90 degree elbow that can be fitted to the outlet pipe to further reduce the noise level.

It would also allow the addition of another external silencer if the noise is just too loud!

I have arranged for our local MSA Scrutineer to check over BJ when we have finished the current modifications to produce a "Competition Log Book" to satisfy the French Scrutes at Etretat who are reluctant to accept a simple M.o.T. as proof of road-worthyness!

Making progress!

Pics in the next posting!  Andy


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on March 03, 2013, 07:02:51 pm
New exhaust!

Pictures.

Andy


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: GP on March 04, 2013, 10:06:42 pm
Hi Andy,

The exhaust looks absolutely fantastic. Who manufactured it for refererence please?

My Murena is still under a dust sheet sulking along with me. Seeing this has inspired me to pull my finger out!  ;D

Cheers,

Graham


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on March 12, 2013, 09:41:26 pm
Baggy Joe's new engine is going together well. We are now doing all the little external bits (Distributor mounting, oil dip stick etc. )
I am planning to do a bench assembly of the whole thing including the blower and exhaust system for photography purposes. I want to demonstrate that I have a very similar design to the one in the ETAI Bagheera book. This may make it easier to get my "Competition Car" Log book. The fact that mine was completed before I even purchased the book is gratifying!
Electronic ignition... I am inclined to use the OMEX 200 ECU as it seems to have all the features I think I need. (www.omextechology.com). These include the ability to "Map" the ignition advance and retard according to the state of the engine e.g. water temp, air temp, and manifold pressure or vacuum. Northampton Motorsport were demonstarting the system at the Race Retro show recently and offered to set up the system on their rolling road. Very tempting for a non-electronics person like me!
Andy


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on March 24, 2013, 11:26:27 am
Pictures of the trial assembly engine. Apart from a lot of the bolts and the carb it is complete.

Although I wondered if this would prove to be a waste of time, somehow one can see things in the pictures that were not obvious "in the flesh".

Example: The right hand exhaust is very close to the oil filter. Maybe we need some sort of heat shield fitted. When the oil is flowing the heat will simply make the oil warm up faster, not a bad thing in limited quantities as getting the engine thoroughly warm before a Sprint or Hill Climb takes a lot of idling. I'm more worried by what happens after the run and the oil has stopped flowing. The heat could build up quickly and maybe damage the filter element itself.

Comment?

The real assembly starts tomorrow.

Andy


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: GP on July 07, 2013, 10:00:48 am
Hi Andy,

How did the engine assembly and the Lydden Hill Sprint on the 6th. July go?

Cheers,

Graham


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on July 08, 2013, 06:43:05 am
We have now done two events with the new blower assembly. Prescott La Vie En Bleu and a sprint at Lydden Hill on Saturday.

Liz and I are now "dual driving" so the car is entered twice, once with me as the driver and again with Liz as the driver. The cost is obviously double but the fun is doubled too!

At Prescott I struggled with the gearbox jumping out of second just where I needed it most at the entrance to the "Pardon" left hand hairpin bend. It went if OK but kicked out again just when I tried to get the power down as I turned into the corner. I tried holding the gearstick but it happened every time. Liz didn't seem to be having the same problem - very puzzling! In consequence I found myself trying to find first without having enough hands or feet as I coasted around the very steep apex!

Otherwise the car did well. Prescott no longer performs a noise test as you queue up for the practice start line. They have a "drive by" noise monitoring system and call you in if the noise is too loud. We had not been called in so that was OK then! I then realised that it would be good to know what the actual noise level would be if they did the test the old fashioned way. I asked one of the scrutineers to do a standard noise test and we found 97dB at 4,000 RPM. That should be good for the sensitive circuits like Goodwood.

I'll write separately about Montlhery and Lydden as my screen is jumping about becasuse this messege is too long!

Andy


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on July 08, 2013, 07:02:53 am
The problem with the gearbox jumping out of second gear proved to be easy to fix! The new exhaust outlet from cylinder No. 1, as the engine rocks backwards under hard accelleration, was knocking the gear linkage and pushing it out of gear! As simple as that! The lever on top of the vertical layshaft has an offset bend and it had been fitted (probably by me) with the offset upwards. I turned it over so that the offset is downwards and that cured the problem! I replaced one of the M8 ball joints for good measure and we have not had the problem since then. Liz did not find the problem as she is not yet driving as hard as I do.

We joined the Matra Enthusiasts Club convoy to Montlhery on the next weekend along with 2 other Bagheeras (Marion Quarrington and Greig Dalgleish), three Murenas and the Rancho of Tim Martin as team leader. Brilliant Saturday and a very wet Sunday. We opted out of the Sunday display and visited the Matra Museum in Romorantin looking (unsuccessfully) for the Matra development engine with their supercharger as pictured in the Bagheera book. If anyone knows where this engine is I would be very pleased to know - so would the museum staff who were helpful but not able to suggest where it might be. It certainly is not in the Paris show car as the book suggests! Among the 53+ beautifully restored Bagheeras Baggy Joe was the scruffiest! But there was a lot of interest too and nobody mentioned his battle scars!

I'm very glad we went and look forward to "Bagheera at 50" in 10 yearstime.

Andy


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on July 08, 2013, 07:26:09 am
Lydden Hill Sprint was last Saturday. This is the racing circuit near Dover in Kent that was (is still?) used for RallyCross as was shown on ITV most Saturday afternoons in the '60s and '70s! Think of an oval track about 1700m long bent into an "L" shape. Hills and dips, fast bends and a slow hairpin. Great fun when I went first there two years ago when "Prymeg" walked me around and showed me the lines to take. Thanks again Graham!

Liz and I were dual driving again, a first for Liz on a racing circuit with much higher speeds than Prescott or the Rushmore Sprints in her Audi S3 on a narrow road around a grassy army exhibition ground in Hampshire. She was very apprehensive at first but after "doing a Graham" and walking around most of the track she settled in and started to enjoy herself (as I was enjoying myself again too!). By the end she was keen to have another track session as a bonus.

Baggy Joe had three problems, two of my own making! I had noticed before that the Blower Manifold pressure sensor pipe came off the sensor under maximum boost (about 1 bar) and I had failed to fit a small cable tie to keep it in place. Halfway through my first run the engine felt sluggish and I worried about pre-ignition and blown head gaskets again. A cable tie fixed that problem and we went back to full power again.  I fitted a new battery for Prescott as the old one had died over the winter. In error I fitted the battery intended for our competition Fiat 126 (650cc twin cylinder) instead! It has a struggle starting the new 1442cc + Supercharger Baggy if the engine does not start first time!  A new heavy duty battery should be delivered today (70Ahr and 690 Cold Cranking Amps!) More of the third problem next time!
Andy


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: GP on July 08, 2013, 10:20:26 am
Well done Andy and especially Liz,

Great to see it is up and running with only a few minor teething problems.

A very impressive feat of engineering indeed Andy!

Cheers,

Graham

P.S. A few pictures of the installation would be good.


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: andyowl on July 21, 2013, 12:49:55 pm
Thanks for the good wishes!

Some pictures below. I'm not now sure where I have sent them so I apologies if you ahve seen them before.

The head valves are intended for a Triumph Spitfire, 1600cc race engine. They are similar in diameter to the Simca valves but have a much thinner valve stem. This increases the flow area just below the valve head where the area is most restricted.

The other head work is related to smoothing off the internal surfaces and increasing the cross section area.

I seem not to have taken any pics yet of the new OMEX electronic ignition system. I must do that soon.

Andy


Title: Re: Wade Supercharger on a Bagheera
Post by: Spyros on November 17, 2013, 08:12:50 pm
Hi Andy,

I haven't been here for a long time.
My question is probably stupid but would it have been possible to cut the chopper grooves on the puley itself ?