MatraSport Forum

Each model => Espace => Topic started by: BrianM on June 01, 2012, 11:45:28 pm

Title: Another dead V6 automatic gearbox!
Post by: BrianM on June 01, 2012, 11:45:28 pm
Note to self, next time you say "it will be ok, I will check the oil tomorrow" stop & do it now!!!
The wife mentioned the car sounded a bit rough last Sunday after going to the shop for the newspaper. Later we needed to visit family who were only half an hours drive away, well when you can drive. Ok I admit it I made a wrong decission, we got there fine the box was a little noisy in all gears. Coming home was a different matter, it kept loosing gear untill at one point I was having to turn the engine off & start it again to get some drive whilst we were moving. It scared the sh*t out of us after coasting down a long hill I selected drive, it went click, click, bang! it must have selected reverse as both front wheels locked up at around 30mph  :o  At this point I pulled over for five mins to change my pants.
We made it to a Little Chef & arranged for us to be picked up & returned to tow the car home next day.
This is the third Espace that has let us down gearbox wise, the first was a 1998 with the early box (dpo?). I drove it for six months  in 3rd gear until I found out what was wrong. After just 1 hr I had stitched a new solenoid into the valve block & it was all fine. Second car a v6 lx7, it blew all the oil out of it. I found a box for it after around six months of ebay wathcing & many messages. This box has never got into the car & I was lining it up to do soon. It is now sitting in the family car waiting for me to finish getting drive shafts in & air filter mounting etc.
I took out a LMO.005, the replacement is a once reconditioned LMO.001. It came out of a 2001 car. They reconed that it was troublesome but did not know if it was the box ot the wiring / ecu. I guess we will see in a few days. Im working the weekend so will get back to it on Monday.
It was nice to read an old thread of Trolkar's & his story of driving to Berlin to have his box reconditioned. He reconed that it took 3 mechanics 35mins to get the box out! It took me all day :( If only they didnt use 16 & 18mm nuts I would have been ok. (just could not find the spanners) plus two school runs that take 3hrs out of the working day. If anyone is interested, you can drop the box out on a good trolly jack with only the need to draw out the drive shafts. You obviously need to support the engine. I didn't bother to split the exhaust.
Some pictures to follow.

Title: Re: Another dead V6 automatic gearbox!
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 05, 2012, 08:38:47 am
Sorry to hear that your gearbox failed, Brian.

I had the oil on mine changed and flushed this winter, and it's working as new. I've had a few electrical problems with the wiring between the computer and the gearbox (connector problems), but the car is still running perfectly on it's first gearbox (but second engine) with 245 kkm on the clock :)

I hope you'll be back on the road again soon! Good luck :)

Title: Re: Another dead V6 automatic gearbox!
Post by: BrianM on June 09, 2012, 10:38:55 pm
So, what a dissapointment :'(
My replacement box is shagged!! When I bought it I took the risk, they said it had problems but didn't know if it was the box or ecu/connections. What they didn't say was that the diff bearings are shot & it is leaking fluid when hot from the pump. I suspect the pump input bearing is worn, leading to the leak when hot. This is the same problem with my other car for which this box was purchaced.
I only found the leak after fixing another fault, it would not shift gears, stuck in first! clip showed no output speed.
I took out the speed sensor & look what I found:  (log in to see pictures)

Obviously someone had attempted a fix by fitting a new sensor but picked up the washer as the sensor was put it in place. The washer is a spacer & is in-between the sensor & block. It must have been stuck to the block with oil when the sensor was taken out, & then stuck to the sensors magnet when put back in place.
As you can see it is hard to see what you are doing when the box is in place:

Other things:
the 001 box has a speedo drive on it, the later car does not need this as it is picked up by the abs

The selector switch leaver is different:

Also if you fit the early ecu you can not get the box out of park, the later cars need you to put your foot on the brake before selecting gear.

Oh & of course there is the common problem with ecu corrosion:

So I'm going to pull this box out again tomorrow & maybe need to make a good one out of the two I have. However I suspect the pump on my original box is totally shot as it was so noisy with the engine in neutral.
Espace, why do I bother?
Because I have a family of 6 & I can't find a better car for them & all the garbage we carry!

edit. I just bought another second hand box, no torque converter though but only 150 delivered.
So now I have 3 second hand box's to make one good one! Fingers crossed ;D

edit2. Talking with the autobox shop he has explained whats been going wrong.
The original noise which was apparant with the car in neutral or park was the pump gagging for oil because the filter was blocked. This will be due to a failed torque converter, all the particles are blocking the filter.
Oil leaking from the bell housing when warm is a worn bush at the front of the pump that the torque converter turns on.
I hope these nuggets of info can be of help to others.

Title: Re: Another dead V6 automatic gearbox!
Post by: BrianM on June 16, 2012, 12:53:29 am
'Oh woe is me'! :'(
This replacement box sold to me with a warranty is fu***d
There is no torque converter bush in the pump!!!
The guy says "the renault dealer says the gearbox is fine, just a tc failure"
So now I have 4 boxs here all with the same fault.

log in to see the pictures

Here is where much of the bush goes, there are four magnets inside the box. Two are in the valve block case, these two are on the filter. In a good box there should be no swarf on these at all.
                                                                                             Here's one from a good box
(  (

Swarf in the bottom of the box.                                My original box, there is so much swarf that it blocked the filter
(  (

Title: Re: Another dead V6 automatic gearbox!
Post by: BrianM on June 22, 2012, 10:00:28 am
With these boxs hard to find for the v6 I have had lo look further a field. I have fitted a box from a citroen c5 2.2 dci.
I had to split the box to change the front housing as the bell housing is different as you can imagine.

                                                                                              Nice & clean inside
( (

I also fitted the valve block from the old box but only because the output sensor & its connector is different, it was easier to swap the block & loom rather than solder a connector in situe.
Now of course there is the argument that I should have taken the diff bearing race from the original case but i didn't. I don't think the box will be in the car for long enough to worry about. Also the diff ratio may be different?
Anyway it cost me 70 for the box & the car is back on the road for now. I have a sub 50kms box on its way from a  C5 v6 so this one done right should see the life of the car, certainly while we still own it.

Title: Re: Another dead V6 automatic gearbox!
Post by: BrianM on June 23, 2012, 01:30:03 pm
So, another replacement box is here. It looks to be good & low miles as advertised. So another day on my back to swap out one citroen box for another. The one comming out is going in my other v6 Initiale. Fingers crossed, I have had about enough messing with these  :)

Title: Re: Another dead V6 automatic gearbox!
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 24, 2012, 02:55:02 pm
Thanks for posting photos, it's really very interesting! I did not know about the magnets in the box, I suppose they mean that the oil can look ok, but the box still be filling up with swarf. I'm admiring the work you're doing to get your car back on the road. Having just driven from Denmark to Le Mans and back in ours, I fully understand why you're doing it, though.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for you!


Title: Re: Another dead V6 automatic gearbox!
Post by: William123 on June 24, 2012, 06:20:33 pm
Thanks for the pics Brian, admire your efforts, enjoy it now it is running well !, cheers,Bill.