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Each model => Espace => Topic started by: kertrats24 on April 15, 2013, 09:52:15 pm



Title: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: kertrats24 on April 15, 2013, 09:52:15 pm
Help please I have seen people having similar problems but havent seen a definative answer heres the problem im having my wife driving the espace home on the A30 doing 70mph suddenly lost all power and the zigzag simble appered but the engine continued running she pulled over and turned the engine off then turned it back on and it was fine. It did it twice more on the way home on B roads doing 30 40mph when i got home i checked the egr and it was clogged so i cleaned it also checked all connections and put some fuel in it because it was down to one noch.

I took it for a run it was fine coming home today and on the A30 70mph and no power again the engine just wont rev pull over turn off the  ignition back on and its fine again.
I was down to one noch of fuel again there is no smoke the only other fault i do get is sometimes she wont start all i need to do is joggle the wire for the tdc sensor and it starts first time.
I would love any thoughts just avoding the A30 is not an option.
thanks stu 


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: BrianM on April 21, 2013, 11:47:03 pm
It would be a good idea to fix or replace the sensor, it is used all the time by the ecu & not just for starting. If it is problamatic then it is not going to help your diagnosis. Find someone to read the ecu for faults or buy a code reader, maxidiag 704.   


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: kertrats24 on April 22, 2013, 06:26:41 pm
I,ve had the car in a local garage they say it has low boost pressure and have performed a smoke test on it and have found smoke coming out the EGR valve so say they would recomend changing that but thier not sure that will fix it.
firstly would a faulty egr cause loss of power limp home mode.
what price should a egr cost the garage quoted 169+vat renault said 179+vat europarts 131.95 inc vat and del.
whats the likley hood replacing it will fix it...
regards stuart


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: BrianM on April 22, 2013, 09:45:24 pm
The car should run with it disconnected! Try cleaning it out first. You may need to use petrol or 'oven pride' to soften the carbon, but worth a go. there are several 'how to' guides on the net if you search.


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: kertrats24 on April 22, 2013, 11:57:15 pm
I gave it a good clean before I took in it was almost completely blocked with soot


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: BrianM on April 24, 2013, 01:28:00 am
Does the garage have a renault diagnostic device. With a fault code we can look up the problem & repair guide in renault dialogys manual.


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: kertrats24 on April 24, 2013, 08:45:18 am
The garage said they did the only thing they showed me was some hand written notes on the faults they found if the actual codes will help I will call the garage later and see if they've saved them.
They said the computer had logged.
Timing fault.. My thoughts are the tdc sensor as I found the car won't start sometimes until you wiggle the wire then it starts first time.

Low boot pressure.... They thought they could hear a air leek so did a smoke test and found some leaking through the egr valve so I will replace that today.

There was a few other fault codes for sensors but they didn't return once cleared.


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: BrianM on April 24, 2013, 08:55:29 am
The dci has a reputation for bad connections & trapped leads under the top cover. Get the fault codes & with the right pdf from the vault you will have all the repair procedure you need to sort it without guessing. Even if the egr is jammed I doubt it will make much difference. Some people remove it & blank it off.


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: kertrats24 on April 26, 2013, 12:04:56 am
I've replaced the egr valve and it drove great for about a day I have power again but it's still getting a sudden drop of power normally while at speed and only get the power back if you drop the key back a noch then back on.


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: BrianM on April 27, 2013, 02:52:42 pm
Did you get the fault codes yet?


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: kertrats24 on April 27, 2013, 10:20:57 pm
Hi BrianM
No they wrote them on a peice of paper and cleared his desk now cant find them i've booked it in the local renault dealer monday for a full diagnossis cost 32+vat .
I removed the map sensor today and used some cold clean on it its a cleaning solution we use at work on electrial componets i also removed the pipe its attachet to and made sure it was clear.
since i bourght this car about 2+years ago it seemed to be running on 70% power now i think its at about 95%+.

two problems still persist 1 new and the old one to a lesser degree.

1.the new one driving along trying to hold a constant speed and i feel a very slight pulsing in power like driving along tapping your foot. i think i can also feel this if the car is ticking over and i cover the air intake or exhaust with my hand its a bit like a hartbeat.

2.the old one the engine is now only cutting the power when under load ie going uphill and excelerating not all the time like it was and i still get power back when i cycle the key.

Any input on these welcome.
I will post a update once ive seen renault.


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: BrianM on April 29, 2013, 11:33:18 am
It could be something simple like a blocked tank vent. Maybe try leaving the fuel filler cap loose or off for trial. This could cause the hunting you talk about. An air leak into the fuel system could do the same. This would cause hard starting though.


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: kertrats24 on April 29, 2013, 10:00:17 pm
Oook
Been to the dealers there was a few codes

Df019 air flow sensor circuit 2def
Df022 air temp sensor circuit co.1
Df072 fuel pressure information 6def =pressure drop in gallery
Df078 boost pressure waste gate 1def
Df084 egr valve position sensor co.0
Df061 primer plugs circuit 1def.

After clearing the codes non returned when they drove it until I drove it when the only code to return was df072 according to the guy at the garage this means I have a leaky injector. So I asked him to do a leak back test 32.00+vat as a rough estimate he said it's about 250+vat for the injectors and 2 hours for removal and refitting.

Does this sound about right.
Btw
I found its not just loosing power the engine is stopping


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: BrianM on April 30, 2013, 10:35:18 am
I wouldn't go spending loads of money on injectors just yet. Does it blow loads of smoke on start up in the morning?
I would investigate the engine wiring loom before anything else. You have a lot of faults here. Looking at the fault code for the fuel rail pressure drop it tells you to check the wiring & sensor first. Take a look at http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Espace/vault/JE/NT3919A.pdf
Print the pages you need & have a good read. The dci is renowned for having bad connections. You may need to remove the loom & strip it back to check it is all good.


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: kertrats24 on April 30, 2013, 07:08:10 pm
No my car never smokes white black nothing and co2 came back ok on the mot.
The leak back test shows the no.2 injector is def leaking and they say the wiring and sensor checks out total cost 491.56 :-< they assure me this will fix it and i need it for friday as i have a caravan holiday booked so ive given them the nod and fingers crossed.


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: BrianM on May 01, 2013, 09:33:37 am
A leaking injector normally gives smoke on startup & a slight misfire. Fingers crossed for you that they find your fault. With mine you could lift the loom by the gearbox & the engine would cut out! never did find the fault.
At least you will get a better mpg & power with the new injectors.
We are away this weekend too but I have hired a minibus as the grand is not big enough & not having done the timing belt yet i'm a little concerned about putting the family in the car & going any distance from home. Plus it only does 28mpg max! Have a good weekend & let us know how you get on.


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: kertrats24 on May 06, 2013, 10:03:49 pm
Got the car back on Friday in time for my long weekend away and it didn't stall once after the replacement injector so yay.
The only thing it still does is the car runs fine but normally when traveling on the motor way traveling at speed I sometimes get pulsing in the power..it feels a bit like driving on a road with bumps it was happening at the same time as the faulty injector so I thought it was linked but that's fixed and that faults still there


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: roy4matra on August 12, 2013, 08:49:18 pm
A leaking injector normally gives smoke on startup & a slight misfire.

No you misunderstand the system Brian.

The leaky injector is not leaking at the nozzle into the combustion chamber.  It is leaking pressure internally back to the fuel system.  That is why it is called a leak BACK test.  This loss of pressure is what is causing the loss of power and cutting out.

Quote
At least you will get a better mpg & power with the new injectors.

He will get better power certainly, but the consumption may not show much difference, because it was not over-fuelling because of a leak at the nozzle.

The pulsing is a different problem and could be that TDC sensor, or a boost or airflow meter problem.  It needs further investigation i think.  Since you admit you sometimes have to wiggle the TDC sensor wiring to get it to start, think what would happen on the road - it could be cutting out and in again giving the pulsing.

Roy


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: kertrats24 on August 13, 2013, 08:58:56 am
Update I've fixed the pulsing power by bypassing the egr valve but would like to find a perenent fix I tried a new egr valve and the fault is still there.
The lack of power I've had since buying the espace I've sorted as the garage said the pulsing could be a leaky intercooler so I stripped it out and checked it was fine but there were signs of minor leeks at the joints in the hard plastic pipes so I stripped out all the intake pipes cleaned them all with hot soapy water let them dry and refitted ensuring all joints were good result lots more power ..


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: BrianM on August 20, 2013, 10:26:50 pm
Thanks for that info Roy, I am a dumb ass at times. Did you return to the garage, I'm sure there is a set up procedure in the clip diagnostics for the egr valve when it has been replaced.
I currently have two dci's here at the mo. One has lots of faults listed in the ecu. Basically it will not rev, its a bit smoky on start up also.
the other one, again smoky on start up which gets better when hot but still a bit of smoke when revved.


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: kertrats24 on August 20, 2013, 10:58:50 pm
Hi brian
I haven't taken it back to the garage they had the espace for two days before they said egr setup and they could get the car to produce the fault but didn't know what it was or how to fix it and surgested driving it until it gets worse or brakes then they should be able to fix it.
it doesn't fill you with confidence when a Renault garage with 1000s worth of tools cant sort it and me with a screw driver a bucket of soapy water and some blanking plates can( at least temporarily ),... ;)


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: BrianM on August 20, 2013, 11:13:10 pm
 :D  thats the way of the world mate!
Sounds like Roys our man! shame he cant see through your eyes, like remote viewing! Sure you would have it fixed in no time.
Your fault is very similar to runing low on fuel. I had it the other week in a hire van. It was late at night & I was trying to get to the cheap fuel station :) so pushed it a bit far & it was very low on fuel. I kinda got a surge as air was in the system, I assume? fine once I put fuel in it.


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: BrianM on September 02, 2013, 05:12:55 pm
Sounds like I have the same problem on my dci, I bought it to go on holiday with. It was smoky on startup. I found the egr valve disconnected so reconnected it. Cleared all the faults & changed the oil. This reduced the amount of start up smoke. I had some injector cleaner which I put in the tank on the way to the ferry, said it wanted 60 ltrs of fuel to the bottle of cleaner so just put in 40 ltrs as the fuel guage was on 2. We got to Dover fine, it was a bit sluggish & black smoke when booted to overtake. (4hr drive to Dover) I feared starting it when getting off the ferry because of the startup smoke. I imagined filling the deck with smoke :) but as it was hot the smoke was minimal.  When I got down to 1 fuel indicator I put another 40 ltrs of premium diesel from a Shell station. All went well to Strasbourg, had to floor it some 100mph for part of the way as time was getting late. We got to our destimation 10.30 pm. & driven 670 miles 1000kms. All went well I & sounded good. Next day car ran fine on the local roads, I topped up the oil by 1ltr! Following day we went to Europa park nr. Strasbourg. Trouble started when we were returning to our appartment, In the middle of the worst thunder & lightening storm I have ever driven in!. The rain turned the road into a river. Espace started to hickup so I came off the motorway & the first junction where she stalled. We reproged the sat nav to do no main roads. & drove gingerly as poss, at first it kept syalling at junctions & had no power. The stom passed & roads got better & the car got better but not back to normal. After a good night sleep I checked the diagnostics to find no faults! It ran fine when cold but ass soon as it warmed up it was back to stalling under pressure. I did wiggle sensor connectors but to no avail. On one occasion it to a good half an hr to get it started. Next day we loaded up the kids & our belongings & set the sat nav for our next destination nr Reims, France.  We did the back roads again & after 100k or so it stopped cutting out but as long as I only drove like grandad :) Max 100kms & let it slow down on hills. After 5 nights here we drove it home with the same problem. I filled up with fuel in Breisach, Germany & drove 950kms on it! Now need to find the fault so I can sell it & get back to my v6 petrol. Oh, there is no more smoke on startup & the engine sounds really sweet on tickover, I added some Molly oil & It hardly used any on the way back.

I tried to insert a couple of youtube vids here but the forum is too old to insert current html codes so here is what I have found http://vtedit.com/espace/ (http://vtedit.com/espace/)


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: roy4matra on September 03, 2013, 02:51:54 am
Thanks for that info Roy, I am a dumb ass at times.

Not really, it's just that these are complex systems which I had training on plus experience and you can't think in normal 'old' mechanical diesel terms.  They just so different.

Quote
Did you return to the garage, I'm sure there is a set up procedure in the clip diagnostics for the egr valve when it has been replaced.

There definitely is a Clip procedure for when the EGR has been replaced.  The injectors are also individually coded so if you replace any the ECU has to be given the new codes otherwise it will not run correctly.

Quote
I currently have two dci's here at the mo. One has lots of faults listed in the ecu. Basically it will not rev, its a bit smoky on start up also.
the other one, again smoky on start up which gets better when hot but still a bit of smoke when revved.

It's been a few years now since I worked on these, so I'm a bit out of touch.  However, knowing the Clip and how it doesn't always tell the truth either, we always made a note of the faults, erased them, test drove the vehicle again and checked it again to see what came back, for starters.  Then there always a few faults we knew we could ignore as well!  You got to recognise them and simply knew they were not real!

If you give me the VIN number and Fabrication number of the vehicles and the list of their Clip faults, fault codes and DEF readouts, I can have a look through them and see if anything comes to mind.  I have some Dialogys software but I need the VIN and Fab nos. for it to work properly.  One immediate thought is 'when was the fuel filter last replaced?'  Whilst these filters will go a long time, and mileage before needing to be replaced, if they are getting old/clogged, they will often stop an engine especially if low on fuel in the tank.  Or prevent it starting easily.  So this is an item that unless you know it has been changed recently is worth changing just to eliminate it from the problem.  Never does any harm to have a known clean filter so it's not a waste of money.  And if I remember rightly, these have a tap on the filter housing that you reverse whilst bleeding the system after fitting the new filter, but you must make sure it is turned fully back afterwards otherwise that causes a problem.

Final thought for now - when an EGR has become badly carboned up, the inside of the housing is also usually badly coked too.  Sometimes the EGR valve is cleaned but not the housing, so make sure that is really clean.  And check the two valve heads actually still seat properly.  Once they get a bit of carbon under them, they can bend (or even break off) so whilst they might have been cleaned, make sure they are not bent.

Oh, and I'm off the the USA in less than a week so may not get back to you until I return.

Roy


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: BrianM on September 03, 2013, 12:00:21 pm
Hi, thanks for the info Roy, the one car I'm having the major problem with has no fault codes!
I understand what your saying about clip & ignoring some codes.

For a short time the symptoms died away after topping up with fuel. So yes I will change it.

If you have a couple of mins please have a look at the videos here > http://vtedit.com/espace/ (http://vtedit.com/espace/)
this shows some interesting figures jumping around, I'm thinking it is a sensor voltage issue to several sensors. Interested to see what you think.
Cheers
Brian


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: roy4matra on September 04, 2013, 01:45:42 am
Hi, thanks for the info Roy, the one car I'm having the major problem with has no fault codes!
I understand what your saying about clip & ignoring some codes.

For a short time the symptoms died away after topping up with fuel. So yes I will change it.

If you have a couple of mins please have a look at the videos here > http://vtedit.com/espace/ (http://vtedit.com/espace/)
this shows some interesting figures jumping around, I'm thinking it is a sensor voltage issue to several sensors. Interested to see what you think.
Cheers
Brian

I don't think I would worry too much about those v.high negative figures Brian.  The Renault software system is not that fast and from what I remember these figures can simply be that it has not caught up.  Of course knowing their wiring and connections, it would be a good idea to make sure you have no obviously loose or poor connections to sensors.  Often just disconnecting and re-connecting them a couple of times if they are quite tight will clean the contacts.

I would pay more attention to things like the injector pulse timings, fuel and boost pressure readings as the engine is revved and if possible on the road being driven.  A pulsing can be the boost pressure suddenly dropping and building back up, since it is leaking at the high point of the boost - sometime the intercooler or pipes or joins give but only when the pressure reaches a certain level.  We once had an intercooler that opened up near top boost but held fairly well at lower boost!

No fault readouts when there is definitely a fault only means the particular problem cannot be recorded.  For instance on an early car like say mine, there is no RCO so if the computer commands something there is no system to tell it whether it has been carried out at all, or carried out correctly. Later car like yours does have RCO on some things so it can check if it has responded and if not it can attempt to correct the fault by sending again but only when it keeps getting an incorrect or no response will it list an error and fault code.  For some things, the faulty RCO is enough to cause the ECU to shut down the engine since it can't control it when it doesn't know what is going on.  Other lesser faults, it will either go into 'limp home' mode, or maybe allow it to continue and simply display an error to be fixed asap.

So for example no TDC it has to shut down as it doesn't know what the revs are or the timing point, but no cam sensor is not a big deal since it can still work with the TDC senor.  With the cam sensor it can respond quicker as the cam is rotating at double speed.  Without it, it has to wait longer to react.

Your description of the fault appearing with the storm and wet roads, and improving as the weather eased, suggests maybe water affecting the electrics, so make sure all underneath especially are good; particularly the TDC sensor which is down the bottom.  You know that to set the TDC gap correctly you lift the clip and push the sensor actually against the flywheel then release the clip to hold it.  Once the engine starts it will push it off just enough.

The second fault caused by lots of water with any car with a 'hot-wire' airflow meter, is the effect on the hot-wire.  So make sure the air intake filter is good.

These common rail diesels need to be revved hard occasionally to keep their system clean.  The trouble is most owners don't ever rev them above say 2,500rpm thinking it will be good, but actually the reverse is true.  Low revs all the time never clears the carbon build up.  So your long and sometimes hard drive in Germany has cleaned the system of carbon which is why it no longer gives black smoke on start up or acceleration.  The trick is to hold it in first gear or second and take the revs to the governor occasionally (at least once a month) to keep them clean.  People wouldn't have EGR problems if they revved them more!

People used to complain diesels were slow as well as noisy and smelly, so didn't want them in preference to a petrol.  So they designed these common rail diesels to give the performance but you have to rev them more often.

Roy


Title: Re: Espace 2.2 dci 2002 mk3 power loss not reving
Post by: BrianM on September 09, 2013, 12:25:36 pm
Thanks again Roy, The only connector that I had not touched was the crank sensor, on inspection it looked good - no damp or dirt. Just disconnecting & reconnecting it my fault has gone! I thought that these were either good or bad after all all they are is a small coil & magnet to pick up the metal pins on the flywheel. Seems strange that it gave up at a certain rev & got progressively worse, the car got slower. Anyways were good for now. Many thanks again.
Now to go rebuild a turbo on another dci!
Cheers
Brian.