MatraSport Forum

Each model => Murena => Topic started by: Lennart Sorth on October 07, 2006, 08:07:49 pm



Title: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: Lennart Sorth on October 07, 2006, 08:07:49 pm
I have just had my converted Murena 1.9i on a rolling road, with some rather impressive results.

Originally the engine is a Peugeot 205 1.9 gti 8 valve version, which was famed to produce 128 hp, but in fact few of them really did, so I have always expected 120hp.

Recently I realised my car was pretty much up to the task of outperforming a genuine 'S' on a track, or at least equal it, so I was quite interested in getting it measured.

The engine has just been completely rebuilt, new pistons, liners, bearings etc, and the result is an impressive 136 hp at 5022 rpm, and an even more impressive 205 Nm torque at 3324 rpm !

The torque curve is also quite wide, giving over 180Nm in the range 2200rpm-top.
I have attached the readout.

I also have a theory that my car was lightened quite substancially by fitting this engine, - but until now I haven't had it weighed (silly me). However, I have pictures of the car before and after the conversion which suggests that the rear suspension raised itself 2-3 cm after the conversion, which in round figures would be 50 kg or so...

Before:
   http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Murena/Conv/P1.9i-8v-ls/Med/19951017_001.html

and after:
  http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Murena/Conv/P1.9i-8v-ls/Med/mvc-011s.html

(It *is* the same car, but the licenseplate differs, as I had that 903X "diplomatic" one on, while I lived in the UK.)

This way, it is no surprise that the car is quick and nimble.

I just looooooooove this (Matramagic-) conversion, and can only recommend it. I am fully convinced that the Murena was designed for this engine - and had it not been for the early end of production for other reasons, that engine would have found its way to the Murena enginebay.

/Lennart


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: macaroni on October 07, 2006, 09:56:35 pm
Thats very impressive, would you care to share with us the price that Matramagic charge for such a conversion?

There is another Murena in my town and I spoke to the owner today. It is another Matramagic 1.9 gti conversion and the car hasn't moved for ages and he wants rid of it. Maybe I should buy it for the engine?

Does anyone want more details on this car?


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: Lennart Sorth on October 07, 2006, 10:39:24 pm
My conversion was done in the previous century, and the price was impossible to make out, as I had a list as long as the car, with other things I wanted put right. (roof without sunroof, water pipes, radiator, respray, trailing arms, etc etc etc)

I believe Matramagic have stopped doing these, - probably because the price was too low (Will, are you here ?) - and they only did quite few.

Could the one in your town be a 16V motronic version ?

I specifically wanted the torqy 8v engine, as that would be easier to get accepted in Denmark, - however, rules have changed since then, so if only the car has been approved in another EU country, then it is per definition approved in Denmark. (Alfa) V6 is now possible - at least in theory!

Hooray! - something good has come from EU ! (except the common-currency idea, which of course, Silly-Denmark has chosen NOT to adopt :-/  )


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: macaroni on October 08, 2006, 09:23:30 pm
Well I went to see this car and it hasn't moved for a couple of years. Quite a nice installation of the 1.9 gti engine, with the ecu in the boot compartment. It was just the 8v version, although I have heard of some mi16 versions.

It had a spoiler and a sunroof too. It is a 1981 Murena and will soon have an MOT, prior to sale.


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: krede on October 09, 2006, 08:18:04 am
One thing to be aware reguarding xu conversions is, that it is only the 1.6 murena that has simmilar enginemountings to the peugeot..... the 2.2 is different.
130-136 hp are the figures stated for the 205 1.9 gti.. so, for a complete, and professionally rebuild engine it is spot on!!.. still everything considered it, and the 200+nm of torque is mighty impressive!!...
... of cause this makes your engine swap illigal by danish law, unless you have payed the extra tax Lennart!!.
Should you be in a crash your ensurance can refuse any obligations, as you have exceeded 20% of the original engine output!!.


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: Will Falconer on October 09, 2006, 10:03:35 am


Does anyone want more details on this car?

That's our prototype. It was a very early 1.6 before conversion.  Gerry has owned the car for many years but I don't think he uses it much.


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: Lennart Sorth on October 09, 2006, 09:14:06 pm
... of cause this makes your engine swap illigal by danish law
yup, provided I tell them these figures.
I had a long talk with the car inspection authority before I initially did the conversion, and they could not see anyone complaining about 25% increase (I optimistically quoted the 1.6 as a 97hp, as Matra did occationally :)  - and 97+25% is roughly the 122hp I would have thought this old 205gti engine pumped out)

Besides, I still have paid 50% more import-tax than other people, mainly because I followed the rules, and had it import-taxed where I live : near Copenhagen.  After some negotiation, the tax ended at something which later turned out to be TWICE the amount the people in the more rural areas paid - and a year later (in '97), when I figured that out, I wrote them, complaining about this, and they amazingly sent me a cheque(!) - decreasing my tax about 150% of others.

Not wanting to hear more about this, i obliged, and shut up. :-)

But still, that makes my concience clear for this engine conversion, - not that it makes it more legal in administrational terms, but I realy don't care. My car is old, and un-original, - I cannot see it being worth MORE than standard Murena's. In fact, as a classic car, it is worth less.

Lets see how the newly imported Alfa-V6 fares ...



Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: krede on October 10, 2006, 07:33:30 am
if the car was imported as a "1.9" and says so in the papers, then you are ok, otherwise.. as i said... you can get in A LOT of trouble if you are ever in a crash....
That the guy at the inspection has no authority reguarding insurance issues... and they frequently pass cars that breaks the 20% rule...... But as long as the cars papers doesnt state that the car is modified and approved whith the changes, it is still illigal.
(i did quite a bit of reserch on this subject when i was putting the 6 cylinder senator engine in my old manta  8) )

as for the v6 murena.... If it has been approved in another eu country, and has the paperwork to show it, there shouldn't be any thouble.
Often people import tuned or "converted" cars from germany to Denmark,instead of doing it themselves, simply because it would be impossible to get the right papers in Dk.... sad... but true


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: macaroni on October 10, 2006, 09:22:44 am
Come and live in England! No-one cares how much you tune your cars and some insurance companies don't even charge extra for modified engines etc.

You can get 102RON pump fuel, at a price and some of the best circuits in Europe to drive around.

Also, don't believe the hype about congested roads, if you pick the road and time carefully, you can have miles of empty, winding roads to enjoy.


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: Anders Dinsen on October 10, 2006, 12:15:41 pm
He has been there... don't know why he returned - I think it was something about family... isn't it always? :D


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: krede on October 10, 2006, 01:01:46 pm
... and they drive in the wrong side of the road over there too!!  :P


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: macaroni on October 10, 2006, 01:22:43 pm
Good point, it does make overtaking in the Matra more difficult, as do toll booths.

On the other hand, I do get a good look at any pretty girls I pass!

Anyway, we digress...


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: Lennart Sorth on October 10, 2006, 07:27:36 pm
toll booths were the only real problem, especially as I have manual windows :)
Overtaking in the Murena just ment a good excuse for pedal to the metal :-)

Besides, since ABS was invented, most brits drive like maniacs, so I rarely had any need to overtake :-)

Actually we're heading overthere again next week (dans l'Espace) , for a short trip to Reading - mainly because my daughter is annoyed that she hasn't been there since 1999, and its her birthday, so we thought that would be a good present.

/Lennart


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: macaroni on October 10, 2006, 08:59:44 pm
If you come on the ferry via Dover and drive up the M20 to the M25 on the way to Reading, you'll pass within a few miles of my house and you'd be welcome to pop in for a cup of tea, but I'm off to Cyprus, so you can't.


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: Lennart Sorth on October 11, 2006, 07:31:00 pm
but I'm off to Cyprus, so you can't.
good old English hospitality :-)

We'll pass your house pretty late, in a rush to reach Reading before midnight - so thanks
for the offer, but I'd rather save it for some other time - even if that means you might be
home at the time. You see, I'm an adventurous guy :-)

Have a nice one at Cyprus !

/Lenart




Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: macaroni on October 11, 2006, 09:33:13 pm
That didn't mean to sound as rude as it came out, you know what I mean! But any ither time you're passing the A21, please feel free to drop in.

I willm it is only 29degrees there at the mo...


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: Lennart Sorth on October 11, 2006, 10:14:14 pm
I wasn't offended at all macaroni, - just having a good laugh  :-)

I *will* remember your invitation, - mark my words.  A21 thats mighty conveniently close to my favourite track - Brands. Had my Murena on it once (and broke down there another time, but thats another story)

Actually I was down the A21 some years ago, when my bl**dy cultural kids wanted to go to Battle and Hastings - the year before it was the Bayeux tapestry in France, and my daughter wanted to go to Oxford on her 9 year birthday same year...   :-)

/Lennart


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: macaroni on October 11, 2006, 10:44:03 pm
Blimey they are culture vultures! All mine want to do is play their Gameboys!

We go to Brands a lot, not to drive though. When I get my 205 finally sorted I will take that there for some track action.


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: Spyros on October 26, 2006, 12:07:13 pm
I also have a theory that my car was lightened quite substancially by fitting this engine, - but until now I haven't had it weighed (silly me). However, I have pictures of the car before and after the conversion which suggests that the rear suspension raised itself 2-3 cm after the conversion, which in round figures would be 50 kg or so...


Lennart,
A comment of Anders in another post attracted me here.
I might be out of scope but It's difficult for me to understand that swapping a 1.6 engine to an Peugeot XU would produce a weight reduction of about 50 kg.

Why ?

Well, alone, I can lift a 1.6 engine. My back doesn't like it but sometimes it has to be done. And a difference of 50 kgs is really big. I don't believe I would be able to lift an engine so heavy to have place for such a weight reduction.

Are you sure the change of attitude of the car was due to such a weight reduction ?


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: Lennart Sorth on October 26, 2006, 03:13:31 pm
Are you sure the change of attitude of the car was due to such a weight reduction ?

yes quite sure
 - as I didn't do *anything* else between the two pictures:
before: http://www.matrasport.info/Cars/Murena/Conv/P1.9i-8v-ls/Med/19951017_001.html
after:   http://www.matrasport.info/Cars/Murena/Conv/P1.9i-8v-ls/Med/mvc-011s.html

The XU9J engine is alloy, and maybe the gearbox/diff is lighter too ?

Anyway, I also found it unexpected and hard to believe - but I have been annoyed by the high attitude rear for a while, and when I found my pictures from 1995, I realised that they all show my car much lower. Still not with the wheel centered in the arc, but at least closer.

At a photosession some time ago, I stuffed my 17 year old son in the boot, to make the car look right (after all, thats what kids are for - isn't it? :-) ) - which told me that you need something like 75kg to get the car down where it would look right, - so I interpolated and came up with the 50kg estimate, as it always was a little too high - as I believe all late 1.6's are.

Matra possibly jumped the fence somewhere, and fitted 2.2 parts to the 1.6 chassis or maybe even 2.2 springs ?? I don't know for sure, but it is a fact that almost all the late 1.6's I have seen, also have been standing somewhat too high at the rear. - and on my car, this has been much more apparent since the conversion. And you need a lot of weight, to compress the springs 3-4 cm.

I have noticed that Simon now stocks a set of springs for the 1.6, which will lower it about 3-4 cm, which is excactly what I would like - as that would put the wheel in the center of the wheel-arc.

I will get my car on the scales sometime in the immediate future ( :-)  ) - as it really is interesting to know if, or how much weight it has lost.



Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: krede on October 26, 2006, 09:44:51 pm
I seriously doubt that fitting the 1.9 unit will net you 50kgs of weight.
Its a HUGE! weight save for an engine/transmission swap.
However.. 3cm or so of extra "tail height" is a realistic amout if 50kg is removed.
When i was refitting my manta with a 6cylinder engine instead of the standard 1.9s, i was told to expect a 3-4 cm drop of the nose if standard springs was used.
The 6 cylinder was some 70kg heavier.


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: Lennart Sorth on October 26, 2006, 11:11:29 pm
I seriously doubt that fitting the 1.9 unit will net you 50kgs of weight.

agreed - but then my springs must have become firmer with age ... :-/ (unlikely)
I really cannot explain the "one inch taller tail" after the conversion in any other way.


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: krede on October 27, 2006, 07:42:09 pm
Well.. what ever the cause is, the lowering springs are not that expensive.
I have just ordered from Simon the other day, though it was only some minor thinls ,like bushes gaskets and a windscreen washer tank,I must admitt that I'm impressed of how easy and fast i got the stuff..... and the price really isnt that bad either if you compair to modern cars, or worse...Classics!


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: hru on December 06, 2006, 03:11:25 pm
All this conversion stuff - engines and carburators......

Would it be possible to replace the carburator with a fuel injection system - using the standard 2.2 engine ?

What would be the cost ?
- and the benefits ?


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: Anders Dinsen on December 06, 2006, 04:27:36 pm
All this conversion stuff - engines and carburators......

Would it be possible to replace the carburator with a fuel injection system - using the standard 2.2 engine ?

What would be the cost ?
- and the benefits ?

The cheapest way forward would be to modify the standard 2.2 manifold to accomodate four injectors with a suitable fuel rail. An idle valve would also need to be fitted to the plenum chamber as a bypass of the throttle body. One way to make a throttle body would be to block the fuel lines in the carburettor and removing the jets and the choke mechanism etc. That would probably be the cheapest. Another would be to find another car with a similar sized throttle body that can fit the manifold - I've read about a conversion for the (mechanical) fuel injection system from a Porsche 924, and apparantly the TB from there fits approximately.

Water temperature, air temperature, and manifold pressure sensor would also be necessary to fit in suitable places.

The cheapest and most flexible computer system available is the MegaSquirt as it's a DIY system with source code fully available. It can even control the ignition, which opens for some performance improvements.

Simple? No. A good idea? Maybe. Reliable? Only if you know what you are doing!

Potential benefits:

- Performance (if tuned!)
- Tuning options (and mess-up-options!)
- Easier cold start (if tuned for that!!!)
- Economy (if tuned for that!!!)



Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: krede on December 06, 2006, 06:05:55 pm
The inlet manifold from a pug 505 turbo, bolts straight on to the murena head, and with a little fiddeling the AFM can also be squized in there.
You will need both an electric "low pressure" fuelpump, a surge tank, and a high pressure fuelpump to feed the injectors.... this should be easy.
The distributer from the 505 turbo also fits the murena engine and has a hall sensor for the ecu... other then that its just to fit the water temp sensor etc etc, and then find an aftermarket engine management system and have it run in by a professional.

Alternativley I have also heard that some 924 parts can be used..or perhaps the entire injection can be taken from an opel rekord 2.2I and fitted with a custom manifold?
i, myself intend go with the 505 method but with a custom made manifold and a "wolf 3d" ECU.

Advantages... well..... it seems that I take the opposite stand then  Anders on almost every topic. ;D. he loves carburettors.. I would have nothing else then injection.. its easier in every day use, faults are much easier to spot (though there seldom are any).. economy...performance..in short.. I find injection superior to carbs on ALL points!!.. except ease of tuning.. you really have to go to an expert to have your ecu reprogramed... unless you REALLY know what you are doing!!.. carbs you can mess around with yourself..
Sure you can get decent power and economy from a carb (twin cabs only give decent power...belive me...!! they are thirsty!!).. but only if you know what you are doing..... same goes for the injection conversion though.... if you just throw something together and hope for the best... chances are your better off with carbs   

Prices.... well.. if you are gonna do it right its gonna cost you.. cars arnt a cheap hobby..
Expect in the area of 6000dkr and up! for the engine management + another 2-3000 to run it in properly
The cost of the rest Depends on what parts you can find used,or cheap on E-bay for instance, and how much of the fitting and fiddeling you are able to do yourself. 


  


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: Anders Dinsen on December 06, 2006, 06:58:54 pm
Advantages... well..... it seems that I take the opposite stand then  Anders on almost every topic. ;D

Haha! In fact I've got nothing against electronic fuel injection, being a computer engineer I acutally like the idea very much, which is probably because I feel I understand the technology, besides fuel injection is kind of an exact science, where a good carburettor tuner probably needs that sixth sense to make things right. That said, however, the carburettor is just a mechanical computer. Nothing more.

And I have been convinced, that the advantages of the fuel injection over a similar carburettor setup when compared one-on-one are few. If we look at performance, there's no big advantage really, unless we go to extremes and fit multiple injectors to our carefully constructed inlet manifold - but this is professional racing technology, not something we amateurs have a budget for.

Ignition is where the big advantage is with computer control, provided the system has advanced mapping capabilities.

Besides, I know from experience the number of fault sources in an EFI system, and there are MANY. The biggest problem is that most of them cause a complete breakdown, whereas with a carburettor, you can normally always keep running somehow.

All that said, however, since my car is an original Prep 142 I tend to feel that eventually I should bring it back to a state similar to what it was converted to (with the twin side draught solex'es). And for THAT I would pick a pair of DCOE compatible dual throttle bodies with one or two injectors for each throttle, integrated fuel rails, etc. This is a direct bolt-on to the S-style inlet manifold, and can also be fitted with the original airbox or something similar, so it can be made to breathe good fresh air.

MegaSquirt would probably be my choice of ECU unless I could get Ole Buhl Racing to build me something :D MegaSquirt is great for a software-hacker like myself, and it does ignition too... a bit crude, unfortunately, but by the time I get around this project, it has probably improved a lot! :D

That would be an upgrade to the original Prep 142 spec (as the Holbay cam I have is too), and therefore more original. Plus: I would be able to push my NA engine to the limit.

But for now, there's plenty of driveability (user friendlyness) AND fun in the single Solex 34CIC setup that Roy has fitted my car with. I AM VERY SATISFIED with this, and I intend to prove the quality of this setup on a rolling road eventually when I get the time.


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: hru on December 06, 2006, 10:24:18 pm
The reason for asking is that I definately prefer a car with injection systems. Much easier to deal with. I also think the fuel consumption is lower and lots more of horsepower present.
My old toyota 1.6 had 116 HP - the murena 2.2 just 118.

So as I can read the conversion to EFI is possible, but the part must be custom made - eventually come from a diferent car

A toyota 2.0 EFI could be modified ?
Transfer electronic ignition, computer and inlets, lambda sonde.

Krede: I found this link in bilbasen
http://bilbasen.dk/biler/private/showpics.asp?id=1075898&page=1

It's 505 gti with 105.000 km on the clock.

And with automatic gear - weeeeee - wouldn't that be something for the murena ;D


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: hru on December 06, 2006, 10:30:31 pm
Hey - it just came to my mind - I could even buy it myself!!
My toyota lost the life last week, a defect transmission axle.
I need a number one car for the winter..........


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: krede on December 07, 2006, 07:19:47 am
Quote
It's 505 gti with 105.000 km on the clock.

And with automatic gear - weeeeee - wouldn't that be something for the murena 

No not really... the pug 505 gti(grand tourer injection) engine has nothing in common with the pug 505 ti(TURBO Injection) and require alot of modification to fit.

Quote
My old toyota 1.6 had 116 HP - the murena 2.2 just 118.
sure... but look at the torque!!.. I bet the murena has a good 40-50 nm more!


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: hru on December 07, 2006, 10:17:20 am
Quote
No not really... the pug 505 gti(grand tourer injection) engine has nothing in common with the pug 505 ti(TURBO Injection) and require alot of modification to fit.

Oh, I forgot the differences between NT9 and PSR engines


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: krede on December 07, 2006, 10:27:59 am
Yep... the Dovrin engines are everywhere in citroens, renaults and peugeots wheres the n9t are very rare.


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: hru on December 07, 2006, 02:37:45 pm
How much do you think Carjoy will charge you for the n9t ?


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: krede on December 07, 2006, 03:25:36 pm
How much do you think Carjoy will charge you for the n9t ?
I have no idea.. and i dont think they even have any peugeot engines.
I have just bought a standard 2.2 murena engine, that I will then build to n9te specifications.
His prices are 1500 euro for a complete murena 2.2 in good condition.
You can also get one with piston or bearing faliur, but otherwise ok, for 750 euro (the one I bought).
Freight amounts to 130 euro. 


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: krede on December 10, 2006, 05:55:31 pm
Just found a bit about installing fuel injection on the murena engine... dont know why i didnt see it before..

http://www.technikhomepage.de/kfz/efi/einspr.html


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: hru on December 11, 2006, 12:39:15 pm
Interesting !
I will look at the details


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: turbofriik on July 29, 2007, 01:28:13 pm
Hi,

I've been watching for Matra Murenas sometime, and I'm interested of a enginebuild of Peugeot XU10J4TE swap to Matra Murena. (it's a 220hp turbocharged Peugeot engine from factory).

A fast RWD mid-engined Matra would be an interesting build. Engines would produce easily some 350+ hp. Of course requiring upgraded brakes and suspension. ;)

What I'm interested is that:
  • 1.6 or 2.2 as a basecar (differences in suspension, brakes?) , difference in engine mounts for XU engines? (XU10J4TE will mount similarly as XU9J2 (8v Gti engine) or XU9J4 (Mi16 engine).
  • What Gearbox 1.6 / 2.2 used? Easy solution to mount a newer Peugeot gearbox, which they used with the XU-series engines (BE3 , or ME-series from V6s) ?

I'm asking this from you , as you've done a XU-engine swap, and propably you know these facts.  :)


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: krede on July 29, 2007, 04:01:56 pm
Right... To start.. as far as I know, only one guy here has had his Murena converted to use the peug engine.
That would be Lennart, and he didn't do the work himself, but paid a garage to do his "dirty work", so I'm not sure he will be a reliable source of more tedious technical information. :)

But now..
Before I bought my Murena, I had EXACTLY the same speculations as you have now.
I also thought of other engine options , but came to the conclusion that the xu series is the most suitable engines  considering cost,  effort  and performance.. IF an engine swap is whats wanted.
In the end , I decided to buy a 2.2 and put a turbo on that engine instead.(I just havent gotten around to it yet :) )


If you decide that you definitely want to convert to an xu engine, the 1.6 is the murena to go for.
The 1.6 shares  a couple of the engine mounts with the xu, where the 2.2 is completely different.
Apart from that the 1.6 SHOULD prove the cheaper to buy, and the difference form the 2.2 is so limited that is (in my mind) doesn't make any real significance, as apart from the slightly wider tracking of the 2.2,  you'd have to improve it anyway. (brakes, suspension etc)

The swap itself will require the use of the BE3 gearbox that comes with the xu engine.Fortunately This gearbox is superior to the Citroen bx one used by matra.
I don't know if the gear linkage can be used without modification, but the propeller shafts needs to be cut to measure and then welded up again and balanced.
Right hand engine mount needs to be custom fabricated to fit.
You will need the wiring harness form the xu , the efi fuel pump and some way to feed it.
Exhaust needs modification as well... especially the down pipe.
And lots of other "small" things I can't think of now.

Now... the xu turbo from the 405 was NEVER renown for durability .. and add to that .. its an extremely rare and sought after engine..... like the 1.9 mi16 it will be very hard to find.. and if you do, it will certainly need a complete rebuild... witch is much the same as it will need extensive and expensive modifications  to get anywhere near 350 hp for more then a short time without the bottom end going south.

And seriously..... 350hp in a murena?.. hope you have your life insurance paid! because it WILL kill you mate!.. no doubt about it!!

ps: What's with this hp craze we see today!?
When the murena hit the street in the early 80'ies the 911 turbo had about 250hp.. and that was PLENTY to get you killed twice over!!..
The calibra turbo 4x4.. had 204hp.. and it went like a stabbed rat!!!..
Now anything with less then 300+ hp is regarded as weak.. I just dont get it..




Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: turbofriik on July 29, 2007, 05:53:11 pm
Hi,

So 1.6 Mantra is easier to convert because it has similar engine mountings to XU-family. And BE3 gearbox use, ok, maybe ME-series gearbox could handle the high torque better. Ecu wiring, fueling, cooling, driveshafts modifying, gear linkage, clutch requires some work. Thanks for advices.

About the XU10J4TE as durability, please don't talk about it unless you have own a one and know about it yourself. I own a XU10J4TE engine with GT3076R turbo @ 2bar on a 405 T16 4x4 car, but it's an another story. XU10J4TE will go easily around 300hp with quite standard stuff, propably enough for a start to Mantra.

Anyone who knows are the enginemountings on chassis side different on 1.6 and 2.2 ? I would still prefer for a 2.2 chassis.

Also interested of a "bolt-on" brake upgrades for Mantra? Sorry, I'm a newbie on Mantras.  :)


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: krede on July 29, 2007, 06:33:39 pm
Well..  as I have never owned a t16 (they are almost none existent in Denmark,) of cause I have to rely on what I have learned from other sources.. :).. but none or the t16 owners I spoke to when I was looking at engine options, had  much good to say about that engine.

ALL the engine mountings of the 2.2 are different to the 1.6.
The 2.2 even have one of the mount points situated on the oil sump!...a solution unique to the murena as far as I know??
And Im not sure whether the gearbox mounts are the same either?.. the propeller shafts certainly are different 1.6/2.2.

Bolt on brake upgrades... well.. had there been any , I would have fitted them all ready.
Danish regulations make fiddling with the brakes next to impossible.
The Talbot Horison discs and calibers will bolt straight on.. these are the same diameter, but the disc is slightly thicker.. and the rotors are still not ventilated!.. so I don't think it is much of an improvement.. certainly not adequate for 300 hp.
It is claimed that some audi 80 calibers will also bolt straight on to the Murena upright, but as for discs to fit this...???
Best bet would be to have a set made by a specialist willwod or simillar... but getting such a kit approved for street use?
If I remember correctly Jespers dutch v6 is fitted with such a kit.. If it gets approved (fingers crossed) I will copy his brake setup , if I can get him to spill the beans :)   


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: Bart_Maztra on July 29, 2007, 08:28:39 pm
I had the XU9 1900-8v engine in my 1.6 murena.  And i can tel you, the mountingpoints of the xu9 engine do NOT match the 1.6 enginemounts. Okay, they are kind of in the same place, but all mountingpoints needs modifications to make it fit. The richthandside mount needs a little cutting and moving the enginemount and a bracket. The lefthandside mount only need a bracket. The bottommount is totaly in the wrong place so that needs something fabricated to meet the chassis.

The 1900-8v engine is smaller than the Mi16 engine. the MI16 engine is much harder to fit in a murena. It needs grinding to make it fit. I gues your engine is at least the same size as a MI16. I gues it also needs more grinding to make room for the turbo.
I used the BE1 gearbox. The gearlinkage is easy to convert an the clutch is also easy, unlike the BE3.

The enginemount of a XU engine looks a bit simular to an 1.6 murena, but the murena enginemounts are designed for 100hp. To do 300+hp on these mounts is in my opinion not a good idea.

What about starting with a 2.2 murena and turbo that? That 2.2 engine was also sold with turbo in the 505 turbo.


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: krede on July 29, 2007, 09:16:23 pm
Well.. there was a lot I DIDN'T know!!.. I always thought that the Mi 16 engine would be just as easy to fit as the standard 1.9 gti engine.
But it makes me fell that more certain that I chose the right thing, when not going for the conversion :) ..

Quote
What about starting with a 2.2 murena and turbo that? That 2.2 engine was also sold with turbo in the 505 turbo.

That is what I have decided to do... It should be much easier.. and much less "intrusive" then an engine swap.
The 505 turbo can be made to yield about 200-220 hp without much effort or cost. witch i think  is  about as much power as the rest of the car can handle. for sure it will be enough for me :)   


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: lewisman on July 29, 2007, 09:20:07 pm
When the time comes to change my engine I will be looking at the Alfa V6 conversion.   Personally I do not want to have a power output that destroys the drive-ability of the car.  A bit more power and the noise of an Alfa V6 would do me fine ;D ;D


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: Bart_Maztra on July 29, 2007, 09:24:18 pm
have a look here
http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Murena/Conv/index.html (http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Murena/Conv/index.html)


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: krede on July 29, 2007, 11:43:39 pm
In either case my experience has been that even the simplest looking engine conversion, has a tendency to end up much more time labour and money consuming then one had the fantasy to imagine before the project was started... especially things that aren't a "bolt on" fit and parts that has to be custom made, can be a real pain in the rear.


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: Bart_Maztra on July 30, 2007, 07:31:09 am
In either case my experience has been that even the simplest looking engine conversion, has a tendency to end up much more time labour and money consuming then one had the fantasy to imagine before the project was started... especially things that aren't a "bolt on" fit and parts that has to be custom made, can be a real pain in the rear.

Agree 100%
Fit an other engine is much much more work than just "fit an engine" When the motor is in place you've done 5% off the job. Even with an easy engine as a 1900-8v. Most people think of a convertion only of fabricating some engine mounts. But think about fabricating exhaust manifold, driveshafts, electrics, fuel, gearlinkage, cooling, clutch, air intake, and so on...


Title: Re: Murena 1.9i XU9JA (205 gti) performance
Post by: roy4matra on July 31, 2007, 07:20:46 pm
So 1.6 Mantra ...

Please, it is a Matra not a Mantra!

Quote
Anyone who knows are the enginemountings on chassis side different on 1.6 and 2.2 ? I would still prefer for a 2.2 chassis.

The two chassis are different and the 2.2 is not suitable for the XU or that family of engines.  You would have even more mods. to do, particularly to the chassis which then ruins the galvanising.  Since the 1.6 is close to the XU family the mods. required to fit are certainly easier and possible.

However, I'm with Krede on this one, forget 300bhp in a Murena.  It is far too much and will totally spoil the car even if you ever get it right.  Everything will need to be uprated to the point where it is no longer a Murena.  If you want that much power go buy something like a Noble or whatever.  Please don't spoil a great car.

If you want 200bhp then start with a 2.2 and turbo it, a la 505 turbo, which used the same block; but beware you will have clutch and cooling problems unless you really do the conversion well.  There were a number of turbo 2.2 done here originally, and I know of one.  He had nothing but trouble, burning out clutches and continually having cooling problems, so the car could never be used for long.  And I heard similar stories about the others.  All this and the car was not as nice as a good 'S' in my opinion.

The performance envelope of a good 2.2 can take say 185bhp which is easily possible, and it will still be sweet.  After that you are going to have to do major re-engineering.

Roy