MatraSport Forum

Each model => Murena => Topic started by: variator on August 21, 2013, 11:07:21 pm



Title: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: variator on August 21, 2013, 11:07:21 pm
Hello, I'm new here on the forum and as a Murena owner, and I will first say that I think this seems like a forum with members who possess a lot of great knowledge and it is a nice tone here.

Have taken a preliminary review of the car and found a few errors that I have to get corrected eventually, but no major flaws. The car runs rough, both at idle and at speed, and it also has a "hesitation" by forcing.
I assume this must be due to carburetor. Have checked vacuum hoses and I now believe this to be ok. Got hold of a 34CIC carburetor that has been mounted on a Citroen CX, does anyone know if this can be mounted directly on my car? (a -83 2.2)

Seller had used the repair kit on the carburetor sitting on the car, this obviously had no effect on the problem.

Pictures of my car are coming! :)


Regards Terje from Norway



Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: uberprutser on August 22, 2013, 12:24:12 am
Welcome, and happy motoring with your new car :)

I would swap the jets with the onces from the original carb.
But also consider the distributor as a source of your problems.
Has the car been standing for a long time?


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: RazorbackNOR on August 22, 2013, 10:26:17 am
Hello Terje, where in Norway are you? Drammen here. I have some contacts with other Murena guys from Hønefoss, Hamar, Oslo and Akershus.

This might sound quite similar to the problem with my car, I have the original carb, also cleared out the vacuum problems(I think), but still stutters when trying to accelerate more then gradually.

There is a accelerator pump, which gives the carb that extra squirt of petrol when accelerating. the membran on this might not be up to spec, since I believe this is not replaced in the gasket kit. There is also from the "pump" a oneway valve then passing from the lower half of the carb to the upper, this might be clogged, preventing petrol from flowing to the nozzle. Also beware that the o-ring on this spigot is not supplied in the gasket kit either, Anders on the forum has made his own post about this problem.

http://dinsen.net/murena/carburettor/maintenance (http://dinsen.net/murena/carburettor/maintenance)


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: variator on August 22, 2013, 04:41:50 pm
Thank you very much Uberprutser and RazorbackNOR!
I live in Valdres RazorbackNOR, not many Murena here I'll tell you! :D
It looks like I have a leak in the headlight lifting mechanism after all, I can not lift headlights after I turned off the engine, this could be the reason for the erratic engine?
Which of vacuum outlet of the intake goes on headlights, the right or the left (seen from behind)?

And RazorbackNOR: I do`t think the guy in Akershus have his car anny more:)

Sorry Kjetil, it was not with ill will that I referred to you as "gay", it was a terrible mistake in my spelling! :)))))))))


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: matramurena on August 22, 2013, 08:17:47 pm
the gay in Akershus
;D ;D

Welcome! Your Murena. Sounds like a proble in the vac-system. Hope you can find it soon.

Can you maybe tell me some more about driving the Murena in Norway? I go there every year on holiday (and we have a long-term plan for moving there) Just three weeks ago I was close to you, spending a week in Beitostolen... But I always drive the Avantime or Pontiac Trans Sport. The roads don't all seem to be very Murena-friendly. If not for the holes and such then at least because of the speed-bumps.  :o They almost launch my Pontiac when driving over them at the speed allowed.....

Cheers,
Martijn


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: RazorbackNOR on August 22, 2013, 10:06:15 pm
Thank you very much Uberprutser and RazorbackNOR!
I live in Valdres RazorbackNOR, not many Murena here I'll tell you! :D
It looks like I have a leak in the headlight lifting mechanism after all, I can not lift headlights after I turned off the engine, this could be the reason for the erratic engine?
Which of vacuum outlet of the intake goes on headlights, the right or the left (seen from behind)?

And RazorbackNOR: I do`t think the gay in Akershus have his car anny more:)



Not many in Drammen either...
One easy why to check if the vacuum has any influence on the running is to take a bit of decent size hose and fit between the two outlets on the intake manifold.
Infact, I have already driven your car!  ;D From what I remembered it studderd just a little if accelerating a bit hard, mine isn't even roadworthy with the way it's acting....

I do believe that it is a membran in the accelerator pump which is your problem.
Can't tell you which goes where now, since I don't have the car in my garage here now.

By the way, your car was rel fun to drive!


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: variator on August 22, 2013, 11:25:21 pm
Thank you very much Uberprutser and RazorbackNOR!
I live in Valdres RazorbackNOR, not many Murena here I'll tell you! :D
It looks like I have a leak in the headlight lifting mechanism after all, I can not lift headlights after I turned off the engine, this could be the reason for the erratic engine?
Which of vacuum outlet of the intake goes on headlights, the right or the left (seen from behind)?

And RazorbackNOR: I do`t think the gay in Akershus have his car anny more:)



Not many in Drammen either...
One easy why to check if the vacuum has any influence on the running is to take a bit of decent size hose and fit between the two outlets on the intake manifold.
Infact, I have already driven your car!  ;D From what I remembered it studderd just a little if accelerating a bit hard, mine isn't even roadworthy with the way it's acting....

I do believe that it is a membran in the accelerator pump which is your problem.
Can't tell you which goes where now, since I don't have the car in my garage here now.

By the way, your car was rel fun to drive!
It was fun that you've run my car! From what I've seen so far it is in very good condition, interior is very nice!
To blend the two outlets I also intend to do, but it was smart to use a hose between them.
Do you know what the second outlet goes to, is this for the brake servo?
Is there a WEBER carburetor that is "bolt on"for the Murena?

And Martijn: The Norwegian roads are a disgrace and you really got to try them on your trip to Beitostølen! When I run the Murena I must stick to the good roads :) But I would like to welcome you to Norway, many of your fellow citizens are allreddy arrived here!

Sorry Kjetil, it was not with ill will that I referred to you as "gay", it was a terrible mistake in my spelling! :))))))))


Update: Have now closed both vacuum outlet of the intake manifold and the engine was behaving much better, was not shooting in the exhaust when I let up the gas, so I definitely have a leak in the vacuum system! But the engine was still poorly and unevenly at idle.
Then it remains to find the leak in the vacuum system and why it will not idle properly.
Anybody have any idea where I should look? I have replaced the vacum hoses in the engine compartment.


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: Jon Weywadt on August 26, 2013, 05:14:29 pm

---------------
Anybody have any idea where I should look? I have replaced the vacum hoses in the engine compartment.
Welcome to the forum variator.
You mention that the headlights cannot be raised after the engine has been shut off.
They should be able to raise and lower a couple of times with a properly tight vacuum. If they don't move at all it must be a pretty big leak.
The problem could very well be in the headlight vacuum motor (cracked membrane), the lift solenoid or the hoses to/from the motor to the lift solenoid. Also the hose from the engine compartment, but that could also affect your breaking power. Does it brake properly? and how well do they lift/lower with the engine running?
But since it affects the engine performance also check that the vacuum reservoir in the right side of the engine compartment, behind the ignition coil, is intact. We have seen them be cracked before. On mine the hoses to the reservoir were dry and cracked. But I also had a leak in the lift solenoid and cracked hoses to the lift motor.
Good luck.  ;D


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: variator on August 28, 2013, 09:37:18 pm
Thanks for all the great input!
I found the reason why the headlights are not lifted with the engine of. The hose running from the intake to the vacuum reservoir was cracked and after replacing the hose and most of t-pieces (they were brittle as biscuits) everything worked as it should.

Then I changed the spark plugs and spark plug wires and the engine seemed even better.
Last modification is that I have mounted electric fuel pump. I first mounted a pressure pump but this beat so loudly that I switched to a suction pump, this works like a dream!
I have not removed the mechanical pump yet, but intend to do so and clog up the opening with a steel plate where the pump was located.

Jon: Do my car also have a vacuum motor?


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: northmurena on August 29, 2013, 12:01:46 am
Hej Terje, welcome to the forum and congratulation to be a Matra-owner.

a Murena do not have a seperat vacuum-motor ( sorry Jon for answering sooner ;-) ). All the vacuum is produced by the engine. And - of course - that causes problems many times. Itīs a long way and plastic cracks when it is getting old.

I changed my car to an electrical vacuum-pump. Since then the engine is running also much smoother, even when it is cold. If you understand german, hereīs a link : http://matraforum.de/forum/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=4924&highlight=

My solution is what you can find posted by "Heimkehrer".

Hilsen fra Danmark

Kai



Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: variator on August 29, 2013, 06:46:10 pm
Hei and thank you Kai!

What kind of pump is best to assemble for this purpose? Have looked at and considered central locking pump for Golf. Or is it advisable to install something new?

If I understand correctly you used a pump from a Volvo V40 Kai? What parts do I need in addition to the pump?


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: northmurena on August 29, 2013, 07:46:40 pm
Hej Terje,

the Vacuum-pump is from Hella, called UP28. It is used in many cars. For example:
Volvo V40 S40 series
BMW E87 E60 E63 E64
Opel Astra diesel
Audi diesel
VW
Part-no. Volvo should be: 30616992
What you need in addition is the regulator, what stops the pump by reaching enough vacuum. I know the needed one is for sure in Volvo. I donīt know what the other manufacturers are using. And you need a simple relais what is between ignition-power and regulator. It will be heplpful if you can get the original pipe with the original connector from the pump to the regulator. I just cutted this a bit so it fits perfect from the place where i placed the pump to the place where the regulator is. All the rest can be used from the parts that are left from the Murena. I only bought another 4 cm rubber to connect the other side of the reguator to the T-piece from the Murena ( thatīs normally in the engine-bay, now it is in the front ) From this T-piece  one pipe is going to the Breakmaster and the other one is used for the lights. Take care for the connection.The T-piece is opening only in one direction.
Just forgotten: of course you need a bit of wiring and some connectors ;-)

I wouldnīt take a vacuum-pump from a locking-system. A locking-system is only used temporarly, for a short time. By using the vacuum also for the breakmaster it have to work much more.

Hilsen
Kai


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: variator on August 29, 2013, 11:31:51 pm

I ordered the pump tonight on Amazon!


http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0030Z666E/ref=pe_385040_30332200_pe_309540_26725410_item


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: northmurena on August 29, 2013, 11:38:27 pm
det var hurtig  ;)

Remember: you need also the regulator. Otherwise the pump will run all the time and the vacuum will be to high.

And if you need assistance or just an visual example: we have a meeting at the weekend 6/7/8 September at Fyn ;-)


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: Matra_Hans on August 30, 2013, 01:10:51 pm
Vacuum regulator:
I used a : DesignFlex, vacuum switch PSF109S-81-330. The manufacture is based in the USD, but the switch is available fraom various suppliers in Euope (including Denmark).

Hans


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: variator on August 30, 2013, 08:02:06 pm
Hello and thanks for the tip Matra_Hans!

Which configuration of this valve did you use? What kind of connection is the second port (the one you can not see on the picture)?   http://globalepower.com/psf109s-81-330.html
Do you use this valve for both the brake servo and lights?


Are there any other of these valves that can be appropriate for this purpose?



Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: Matra_Hans on September 01, 2013, 08:46:33 am
Hi Variator.
I used the valve with the part number as posted; it has a useful pressure range. The Hella UP28 pump is a booster pump only, but I am using it for headlights and brakes and I have kept the pressure tank in the engine compartment.
On the valve I got there is only one connection.
Hans


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: variator on September 03, 2013, 05:57:08 pm
Hi Variator.
I used the valve with the part number as posted; it has a useful pressure range. The Hella UP28 pump is a booster pump only, but I am using it for headlights and brakes and I have kept the pressure tank in the engine compartment.
On the valve I got there is only one connection.
Hans


But the valve you use has one entrance and one exit connection?


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: Matra_Hans on September 03, 2013, 08:10:17 pm
Hi Variator: there is only one connection on the pressure svitch as can be seen on the attached photo on on the specification sheet
https://www1.elfa.se/data1/wwwroot/assets/datasheets/PSF109_eng_tds.pdf
Hans


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: variator on September 03, 2013, 11:12:53 pm
Okay, so you create a separate outlet to vent?
The current valve is ordered from Denmark today :)


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: variator on September 10, 2013, 10:45:18 pm
Any one know where to buy blinds for side window like this?:


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: northmurena on September 10, 2013, 11:51:21 pm
Perhaps Franz Hamann ( he has many old things on stock ) phone +49-7303-2222 or Auto Simon www.simon-auto.de

But why ? These blinds have no advantage. Why not a real air-inlet ?


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: variator on September 11, 2013, 12:28:30 am
The reason is that I think they look nice, and the black border on the inside of the window panes of mine has begun to loosen. Not particularly nice to look at.
You have removed windows and installed air intakes for better cooling of the engine?


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: northmurena on September 11, 2013, 09:07:22 am
Okay, itīs just for covering a blamage. ;-)

And yes, i took the windows out.


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: variator on September 14, 2013, 06:53:12 pm
Thought I'd post a picture of the assembly of the vacuum pump that I purchased for my Murena.

I made ​​a bracket in aluminum which I mounted using the 4 unused screw holes in the steering rack, to mount the Hella UP28 pump.
Think it was a decent place to have it, it is quite protected down there.

And I forgot northmurena, your car looks absolutely beautiful!


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: variator on October 31, 2013, 02:20:37 pm
Now the electric vacuum pump installed in my car, and the original and weak vacuum system is switched off.
The car is as transformed! Now it goes smoothly at idle and you do not use the choke as much as before.
The car had a number of leaks in the vacuum system and I'm glad I did not throw me over the carburetor  :)

The only thing that remains is to repair / replace light lifting solenoid, where I have a leak.

Photos coming when I have cleaned up a little in my wires :)


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: northmurena on November 01, 2013, 12:28:31 am
"....The car is as transformed! Now it goes smoothly at idle.."

Jepp, not everything should be keeped  only in cause it is origin  ;) ;) I like the electrial pump-solution very much


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: variator on November 01, 2013, 04:58:55 pm
"Jepp, not everything should be keeped  only in cause it is origin  ;) ;) I like the electrial pump-solution very much"

I really like to drive my car, not just go around and look at it :D


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: variator on January 05, 2014, 04:27:03 pm
This is how my modified vacuum system looks (still lacks a little clearing in the wiring, but works like a dream) ;)


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: Oetker on January 06, 2014, 10:18:53 am
I made this system a few years back.
The higher vacuum made it brake so much better.
Also  the engine improved running.
No more poor mixture on 1 cylinder.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-JlCQ6L6OXnQ/T3YnYgPr5_I/AAAAAAAADvA/0t3229xVzPs/s800/P1020589.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-lCNJpQLfyio/T3Ynd4EHSaI/AAAAAAAADwk/4hNBjeN5RJw/s800/P1020648.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-HyCZVz95hj4/T3YndiwvUvI/AAAAAAAADwY/GUf5qC4JoFk/s800/P1020643.JPG)

Difference original vs UP28
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-KGyNBrd7Oqs/T3YnV-y9gbI/AAAAAAAADuI/rdFAK6zEIZU/s800/P1020565.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-94ojS42F8oQ/T3YnUhWzyBI/AAAAAAAADtw/UV8zQ167w3c/s800/P1020572.JPG)

For my 1.6 I am busy to use a mechanical one with 0.95 bar.
This is still in development.

Herman


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: variator on January 06, 2014, 09:03:07 pm
A question to you Oetker: I can see that you have installed a (one way?) filter on the vent hose from the crankcase to the air intake, what intent has this filter and what is the advantage of this compared to the original mesh filter?


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: Oetker on January 06, 2014, 09:16:47 pm
There is not much advantage in that filter but I found the old one a piece of sh*t.
The only thing is that the air from the crankcase will be filtered a bit better.(cleaner).
Disadvantage, that it need to be replaced on regular basis.

Herman


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: variator on January 06, 2014, 09:27:09 pm
Actually, one should have vented the crankcase right out in the open air, but this may not be in accordance to current government regulations? ;) :D ;D


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: Oetker on January 06, 2014, 09:34:59 pm
Actually, one should have vented the crankcase right out in the open air, but this may not be in accordance to current government regulations? ;) :D ;D
That is what they did in the 60s but indeed, the rules.

Herman


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: variator on January 06, 2014, 09:41:02 pm
I wrote a question about Weber 34 DMTR on the native forum, but no one has answered me on this there, so I try to move this question here:

I have obtained a Weber 34 DMTR carburetor from a Citroen CX 2.2 1986 mod. with manual choke.
This I intend to try on my Murena 2.2. Is there anyone who has tried this and know if I have to do a lot with it to use it on my car?
Think reading that Weber carburetor in Citroen CX do not have outlets to the vacuum-advancing mechanism in the ignition.
Is there any difference in performance / consumption with Weber carburetor compared to the original Solex?

Regards
Terje


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: Oetker on January 06, 2014, 10:00:20 pm
I wrote a question about Weber 34 DMTR on the native forum, but no one has answered me on this there, so I try to move this question here:
I have obtained a Weber 34 DMTR carburetor from a Citroen CX 2.2 1986 mod. with manual choke.
This I intend to try on my Murena 2.2. Is there anyone who has tried this and know if I have to do a lot with it to use it on my car?
Think reading that Weber carburetor in Citroen CX do not have outlets to the vacuum-advancing mechanism in the ignition.
Is there any difference in performance / consumption with Weber carburetor compared to the original Solex?

Regards
Terje

Roy experimented with it in the past but was not satisfied  as I believe.
On my 2.2 there is a new carburateur.
It's a Solex from a CX2200.
There is a gap in acceleration around 2000RPM.
I think I go back to original.

The original has written TAL CIC34-141
The Citroen has written CIT CIC34-161

Herman


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: roy4matra on January 22, 2014, 12:58:27 am
I wrote a question about Weber 34 DMTR on the native forum, but no one has answered me on this there, so I try to move this question here:

I have obtained a Weber 34 DMTR carburetor from a Citroen CX 2.2 1986 mod. with manual choke.

Sorry but that is not enough information on the Weber to know which one you have got.

There are lots of variations on the Weber 34 DMTR so you have to be more specific.  Some will suit the Murena 2.2 better than others.  I have a 28/250 with slight mods. and it suits my Holbay 58C cam engine perfectly now.

But there are other versions such as the 21/200, the 28/200, the 46/250 etc. etc.

These Weber carbs have the venturis cast in so are not interchangeable.  The original Solex 34 CIC had 25 and 26 venturis, whilst the Weber I use, the 25/280, has 23 and 26 venturis.  Some have different venturis such as the 35/350 which has 23 and 27.  Some have a vacuum take off (for the distributor advance) some do not.

The one I chose did not have vacuum advance outlet so I modified it and made one.  I then increased the secondary main jet as the one in the carb. was too small.  Now it runs well, drives smoothly at low speed, progresses smoothly on acceleration, and gives even slightly better economy, no doubt owing the the smaller primary venturi.  But flat out it it can provide the fuel to reach a top speed of 218kph/135mph with my high fifth gear so I know it works fine.

Quote
Is there any difference in performance / consumption with Weber carburetor compared to the original Solex?

If both are in good condition, there should be little difference really.  But as the Solex wears (and it does) you cannot get spares for it that easily.  The Weber is better as you can get spares.

Roy


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: variator on January 23, 2014, 08:02:20 pm
Thank you Roy!

The marking on the carburetor is: 34 DMTR 110/100 2 6D

I am attaching a couple of photos.


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: roy4matra on January 23, 2014, 09:14:16 pm
Thank you Roy!

The marking on the carburetor is: 34 DMTR 110/100 2 6D

I am attaching a couple of photos.

The specification is not one I have come across before, but I can tell from the photos and some of the pieces such as the diaphragm linkage that it is an early design.  I have now found the specifications of that version, which probably comes from a Lancia Beta.  I see you say it came from a Citroen CX2200 which is odd since the version I have is from that car and it is not the same version.  The first thing is that it looks like the secondary venturi is vacuum activated rather than a direct linkage.  You should check how tight a fit the auxiliaries are.  Any wear and slackness of the auxiliaries means the carb. is not likely to be much good.

When you strip it down to clean it, make a note of all the jet sizes etc. that would also be useful to cross check against what I found: note down both primary and secondary idle jets, main jets, air correction jets, emulsion tubes, starter jet, needle valve and bleed.  Also check that the float is still sealed so no fuel can enter it, and the diaphragms are O.K.

I can't tell from the photos which are too small and low resolution but does it have a vacuum advance take off?  I don't see one.  If you can fit and connect up everything correctly, according to the spec. I found it may work reasonably well.

What is the problem with the original Solex?  Can that not be cleaned and re-used?  In good condition these give good performance and economy.

Roy


Title: Re: New Murena owner on forum/carburetor problem
Post by: variator on January 30, 2014, 12:26:05 pm
The original Solex carburetor is in pretty good condition and the Weber was acquired when I struggled with the many leak in the vacuum system. Solex carburetor sitting on the car is overhauled, it seems, and is not particularly worn. I'm not going to put much effort into the Weber, as long as the original work.
 
I was also lucky enough to get an extra Solex when I bought the car and I'm going to give this a full overhaul too, so I have an option to switch to.

It looks like I have an extra Weber carburetor for sale if anyone should need it. ;)