MatraSport Forum

The other day it finally became time to pull the head off the engine. It needed a valve job and It had been blowing white smoke/steam from the exhaust when starting in cold weather.
My hope that it was just a leaking valve seal and bad head gasket was dashed when it turned out that the head is cracked right at the exhaust valves in the middle cylinders.  :(
Getting the head off while the engine is in the car is a pain in the ass. >:(  But I succeeded. It is now at RMC Motors where they will grind the cracked part away and weld up a new wall, grind new valve seals, have the valves done, and the bottom planed.

But a couple of questions.
First. Because of the cracks in the head, a little water had gotten into the oil and while not much, how do I best clean it out of the engine?  ??? ??? ???

Second. While dismantling an important step is to loosen the timing chain by removing the plug covering the screw that pulls it back, then turning the screw clockwise to pull the tensioner back. Jan and I tried everything to get the screw to pull the tensioner back, but to no avail. It turns out the the tensioner is very loose as if there is no spring behind it. Also the screw that is supposed to pull it back did not seem to engage and did not move the tensioner at all.
So what could be wrong? My guess is that it is defect, but there was no indication of that when the engine was running. Granted it ran very rough, only firing on 3 cylinders and no vacuum with several hoses cracked.

The oil plan comes off so we can inspect the tensioner and I think the proper thing to do is to just replace it. Anyone with experience here?

Once the engine is running the next big job is to pull the gear box and take it apart. The second gear synchro cone is too small for the synchro ring. Already replaced the synchro ring once and it lasted only a few months before riding against the gear, again grinding when shifting into 2nd. gear.
The plan is to put the second gear wheel on a lathe and take off 1 mm where the synchro ring presses against it, thus allowing the ring to engage the cone more firmly. Alternatively, shave a bit off the side of the synchro ring that rests against the gear, thus also engaging the cone more firmly.

Probably should have pulled the engine out completely to make it easier to get to all the parts. ;D

Cracks in the cylinder head are very difficult to repair: I have had a try myself. The company repair some cracks, but other cracks was left undone. And you get new cracks at the edge of the weldings.  I recently talked to a guy who worked in en engine repair workshop, and he commented that in his opinion repairs of cracked cylinder heads did not work.
It is a pain in the neck to loosen the hydraulic timing chain tensioner. However there are two types: One to be operated with a normal screws driver and another to be operated with an Allan key. Which one do you have?
Hans

There should be 2 types of spanners but I only know this one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30FxWH0nl3A

The Cil.heads are  a pain.
Welding is possible but not in all cases.
2 heads of a fellow member.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-JBuOHJozXMc/U8ps6wQlpFI/AAAAAAAAFBQ/nE8dZ7K69C4/s799/CropperCapture%255B7%255D%2520%2528Custom%2529.jpgl)
(http://i572.photobucket.com/albums/ss170/fjodors/IMGP4656_zps1b9aa140.jpg)
Pics Fjodor
Maybe find a better one.

Herman

Last thing first - yes drop the rest of the engine and transmission out, separate them, and then do the engine properly.  With the cylinder head work, you need to fit a new water pump, new thermostat, new seals and gaskets and you may as well fit a new vee-belt.  Also check the condition of the block core plugs.  This is the time to replace any that are suspect.  Remember the timing cover must be bolted to the cylinder head before the head face is skimmed (or re-surfaced) - it MUST be exactly the same level.  Also remember when you torque the head down, it must be AFTER the timing case is already on and torqued up. (which means the cam gear and chain must already be on and set)

Regarding the timing chain tensioner, whichever type, you must push the screw inwards before you try to turn it.  Did you do this?  If you tried to turn it before pushing and holding in, either it will not turn or you will break it.  Once you have turned it fully until it stops (about 3/4 turn IIRC) it will have compressed the spring and should lock the pad back in that position.  I doubt it was lose or faulty because it is such a long chain that if it had been, you would have heard the chain rattling! (and the running would have been poor even without the cracked head)  If you remove the sump with the engine still in the car, REMOVE the oil level sensor first otherwise you will probably damage it, and you cannot get them anymore.

With the engine out to strip fully, you can clean the inside of the engine and oil pump/strainer etc.  If the cracks are only between the water jacket and the exhaust valves, it is probably that no coolant will have got in the oil anyway.  When you drain the oil of an engine where you suspect there may be coolant in the oil, the coolant will always be at the bottom and first out.  Oil always lays on the surface of water - remember?  So when you release the drain plug always check if any coolant or water comes out first.

Regarding the gearbox, be careful about grinding the sides of gears to get the synchro to work.  The synchro mechanism has to lock in place once engaged and if you alter the amount it has to move it may not lock and then the gear may 'jump out' under acceleration.

Roy

Thanks for the info and warnings.
I did push the screw in as hard as I could, but it turned freely apparently not engaging anything. However, it was possible to get the sprocket wheel off the cam and free of the chain, so the chain could not have been under tension. However, afterwards I noticed that the whole tension mechanism was loose and could pivot. It does not seem right.
Just in case I got a new tensioner from Simon and it has a different release mechanism. It has a clasp in the side of the mechanism, which releases the spring when turned and push the tensioner forward.
I am curious how to do that once installed in the engine? I do not recall a hole on the side like the one on the front where once the plug is removed you can get to the screw. I included photos of the new tensioner.

With your warning about grinding the side of the gear or synchro ring I wonder what options I have. I already tried a new Synchro ring from Simon a few years ago and it lasted only 6 months. I need a ring that better fit the gear or a gear that fits the ring. But where can I get that?

I have another box mounted since de revised  one had trouble with 3e gear.
It's from my breaker.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-upA94Ts9KXU/U90agvggTII/AAAAAAAAEsg/AOsp_vAJoQQ/s800/P1060289.JPG)

I bought it for the ashtray  8)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-9NUpaburSLI/U90ahec7QoI/AAAAAAAAEso/KWU4AekMHes/s800/P1060316.JPG)

Litlle miles ;D
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-gpeqi3EVv6Q/U90ai6WACYI/AAAAAAAAEs8/0d75VbkR--c/s800/P1060334.JPG)

I got the engine and gearbox out and seperated them.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-O_e-SDPj1VY/U90akOKENzI/AAAAAAAAEvA/dYMZ0OeYonk/s800/P1060395.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-enUGVFCx7KU/U90alpUF3JI/AAAAAAAAEts/xgDrA8xGe2E/s800/P1060587%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)

Before that I got the gearoil out and this box looks like a chalenge.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-4PVc8ghaMGw/U90ajdcG67I/AAAAAAAAEtA/FzBTRXKW9uY/s800/P1060382%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)

This box is the later one so somewhere in its life it was changed.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-m8U-gjFvciA/U90alXvS3hI/AAAAAAAAEtk/wTVTLWE6WFg/s800/P1060584%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-YFO8-b92_-8/U90amc6IVoI/AAAAAAAAEuw/0lK9AmMr_Bg/s800/P1060754%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-LBZ_tX6zou8/U90amI_s8mI/AAAAAAAAEt4/yv19cqjs34U/s800/P1060590%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)

Here the problems I noticed before in other boxes with 3e gear.
If you have this it's best to chamge the comleet 3/4 group.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-N80ctz2zzGQ/U90apVfi0RI/AAAAAAAAEuo/XY2UkpdoJGI/s800/def%2520tandwiel%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)

Testing the differential I noticed this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ryVMsTnmmA&feature=youtu.be

The problemis the satelite on the right side.
 I saw this before in another box.
Probably to much force wehen working on the right arm.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Mlqh1HLeZOc/U34-TnQZpSI/AAAAAAAAEcA/ao_w4rgeYPA/s800/P1070155%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-s9ywV4S7OFc/U90anXUL0FI/AAAAAAAAEuU/X9moZZYihj8/s800/P1070162.JPG)

In this box I machined a bit of the synchro's 1-3-4.
I suggest to do no more then 0.5 mm and replace 2nd gear synchro and gear.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-79PtgCArJX8/U90ao7XQXYI/AAAAAAAAEuk/rXQgUEQw-K0/s800/SA000001%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-3tmA8yxZ0dc/U90anrWVg0I/AAAAAAAAEus/8t4cFeL6ySc/s800/P1070621%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)

On 2nd I mounted a new one.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-vNFSCDq_X9M/U90aod3F0vI/AAAAAAAAEuc/pganmY41cyU/s800/P1070625%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)

Tested the box.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWYvL4v-E0M&list=UUCVQxyhNeQGLzguASym0TBw

It's mounted for 5000km now and working perfect with no leaks.
The synchro's are easy to source because they are mounted in several boxes Fiat Citr. Peugeot and others.

The breaker is a transformer now.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-CiDX15YOSDw/U90alNUilgI/AAAAAAAAEu0/tANAnMgdSiQ/s800/P1060427.JPG)
The cat is happy with all the Matrastuff
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/--gfJ1ewAedo/U90ak1j14TI/AAAAAAAAEu4/DroShv6wnAs/s800/P1060409.JPG)
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/--GfiwvJwXO8/U90aiz_BdcI/AAAAAAAAEs0/xxMkWl8NO0k/s800/P1060324.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-9JCeiKHFbgw/U90airNfq5I/AAAAAAAAEtY/7MZZxdR6hWY/s1024/P1060302.JPG)

Herman

I got a new spanner as seen in my post above. It works with a screw on the side and I am wondering how it will be possible to release it, or later tightening it again. ???

I finally got the head back from repair. the shop cut away all aluminium to the bottom of the crack. Then welded new walls and installed new valve seats. I think it looks good. They claim it will hold as well as the original.

But just to be safe I am switching to the waterless coolant from Evans that I discussed in another post.

Finally I will take the radiator and have it re-corred before I run this engine again.

If you want the old type spanner, I have a spare
Concerning 2nd gear, I have 3, but they are in a worse state not usable.
If you can find you can use Citroen CX 2nd gear from 1980 and later.
You need to find the right rings after that.
Simon has them.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-9n2fZ6MQQr4/UU9KqyQv_1I/AAAAAAAACvs/_L_H7achVfc/s800/P1050931%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-owEwniAgFas/UU9Kq7chJeI/AAAAAAAACwA/DVA8-IEO4iY/s800/P1050933%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)
Citroen gave the old shitty parts  to Matra first concerning this boxes.

herman

Ok, so I started to take our spare gearbox apart, but I don't remember how to lock the gears so I can take the nuts off the 5th. gear shafts. :(
Who can tell me how, now that the box os on my wotkbench?

Put the box in 2nd or 3th gear.
Loosen the bolt of the 5th slider.
Now you can engage 5th also.
The gears will be blocked and you can loosen the nuts.

Pics

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Z0yPekmUrbI/T2wwvNKCLGI/AAAAAAAAB9Q/FcaKd0zBSJ0/s800/P1030309.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-T7KmFqPycWY/T2www4xJSUI/AAAAAAAAB9s/CdV_v6BLnsg/s800/P1030311.JPG)

If you looking for pics and how to I loaded a lot up to this topic.
http://www.matramania.be/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2305&start=0

Yest it's Dutch but pics don't need a language.
Herman

I was actually thinking of that solution while waking up in bed this morning  :D So thanks, that confirms it.

I did this back in 2010 and posted pics and a description. You would think I could still remember what I did, but I'm afraid not.  :-[
Your picture with the pipe extending the wrench is exactly what I had to do back then. So now to clamp the box to the workbench so I can apply that amount of force.
My hope is that this spare gearbox has a good 2nd. gear. We shall see.

Hi Herman.

Could you try something with your spare spanner.
With the spring removed and the piston re-inserted, could you see if the screw can be turned freely without engaging the piston?

When I tried mine the screw just turned. It could not be pressed in as it was already against the block.
The chain was loose enough that I could unscrew the sprocket wheel and get it out under the chain. Afterwards the spanner was just sitting in its block and loose to twist. It did not pop out, leading me to think that there was no spring installed. >:(
If a previous owner has had it apart and not realised that the spring had popped out, it may be in the oil-pan. :o
Since the pan is aluminium I will take a strong magnet and sweep it from left to right along the bottom of the oil-pan. Hoping that if the spring is in there I can get it to roll over under the timing gears. I am able to get a telescope magnet down to the bottom but have not caught the spring yet. We shall see. ;D

Normaly I place the box on the ground against the wall.
I sit downon the ground  and press the box with my 2 feets against the wall
Then I take my torque wrench an apply strong force.
It will come loose if youre strong enough.
I look up the spanner (it's somewhere in the mess of parts) and will do so.
Bit patience, I have to find it first.

Regards, Herman

Oh, and if you need 2nd gear synchro.
This one from Fiat will do the trick.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/321289259110?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

Is Fiat item number 9554172288
Witout the last two 8s you get Citroen number 95541722
That leads to Peugeot number 2324.03 that also leads to Matra number 7550943700.
I got the other one from this seller an it's OK
There is a possabillity that Talbot express also has the same box or at last more or less same parts.
I knew it, my Murena shifts like a lorry 8)

Herman

Success.  ;D
I clamped the box to the workbench. Punched the dents out in the lock-nut. Used a socket and extended the handle with a large wrench. Applied force  :D and they came free.
It was harder to get the allen screws out of the plate that holds the bearings in place. Nearly broke the allen wrench, but they came loose.

That is super.  :)
Are you saying that it is not the cone on the gear that is the problem, but the synchro ring?
Will this ring then fit correctly on my gear? ???

In my original post here: http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php/topic,1959.0.html (http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php/topic,1959.0.html) one of your last entries say that the new ring will not fit the old gear. Is the ring you talk about above a size that fits the old gear?

By the way! I also discovered that I made a disassembly document  back then. But I had forgotten about it. I include it here again if anyone should need it:
(just wish I had included the figure 5 showing "bolt A". Jan has my manual, so I don't know which one I referred to.)  :P
Update! Figured that out. It is the bolt that holds the 5./R. shifter block to the shaft.

UPDATE!
Got the second gear and synchro out  and cleaned up. It is GOOD. ;D ;D ;D The clearance is 0.95 mm.
My old synchro ring just falls flat against the gear with some lateral movement to spare.
I was going to use this gear in my box, but it may not be necessary as this ring seems to be of the proper size.
If I was to use this gear I have some concern about pitted rust on the walls of two adjacent teeth. (See photo. Water has somehow gotten into the box while it was sitting around) Wonder if that would be a problem? I have filed high spots off, so it should run smooth, but what about wear? ???
the first gear is in worse condition and the fork has lots of surface rust. This box may be just for spares as is. >:(

You have to measure.
Put the ring on the 2nd gear and if it is 0.8mm or better it will be correct.
I found that if it is lower then that the gear has the wrong angle or the gear is warned out.

Herman

Some time ago I did it that way to.
Now I have a new workbench because I pulled a little to hard :(

The backplate you don't have to get off.
You can seperate the box without removing the plate.
Only when you have to replace the bearing it is needed.
Then you have to heat the bolts up because they are very hard to get of.

Herman

My bench is anchored to brick behind the gypsum wall. ;)
Didn't know about the end-plate. Now it is off.

I updated my post above with photos of the gear.

/Jon

Have no idea what the outcome will be concerning the rust on the gears.
Probably some extra noise, who cares?
You don't have much choices I think
If it is not to bad I would use it.
I have some parts if needed, but maybe better use this box for spares.

Herman

Does anyone know what the letters/numbers on the bell housing means? I am particularly interested in finding out if it was fitted on a 2.2 or 1.6.

UPDATE!! Actually talked about this box four years ago and Roy wrote what he knew. In that post I referred to an AC506 marking on the box. I don't see that here

Best I can say from the photos below
On one side it says: Y20 AS 5U3C
On the other side: 1 95563397 Z

Frankly speaking, I don't know.
I think it was made with a random generator making it look interesting :D
Matra in fact only glued stickers near the engine mount of the gearbox with the type of box.
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/--ZpjQdF7wPU/T2wwcz8IPgI/AAAAAAAAB7s/_Zakyk-ujB0/s800/P1030297.JPG)
After a few months outside in the rain the stickers were gone so nobody knows what gearbox they have without opening it.
During the manufacturing life the box was updated several times.
The French however didn't walk to far in the store room, so it's possible you have a S with one of the first boxes.
It's easy to see if you have a 2,2 box.
The bellhousing of a 1.6 is much smaller.
Also the prise axle of a 2.2 is thicker
The one on youre pics is 2.2.
I can see that on the mounting point of the slave clutch cilinder.
Also the dif gear is different.
a Prise axle of a 1.6 doesn't fit in a 2.2

herman

Hi Herman.

Thanks for the clarification. I have never seen a 1.6 Gear box, so I did not know about the bell housing difference. This box is identical looking to the one in my 2.2.

Regards.
Jon

It is possible to get the chain off, Jon, even with the tensioner applied so that is not a reason to say it was not correct.  It would also depend on how well and how close the guides were fitted.  The last engine I overhauled for someone, the guides were so far out of place that the chain was loose even with the tensioner applied!

Suppose that after the last time your engine tensioner was fitted, the screw was broken, it could be why it just turned but did nothing.  I would like to see all the parts of the tensioner (stripped) in detail, spread out, and possibly from a few angles, and then maybe I can see if it is any good - you may be able to rebuild it correctly and re-use it.  Or you could send it to me and I will check and rebuild it if it is any good.


That tensioner is no use Jon, in a Murena or Tagora or probably any engine unless it has an access hole on the front of the case, as you would have to have the timing case off to release or apply it!  The screw has to be accessible from the outside through the side hole provided by the plug.


The problem is the synchro cone and cone on the gear do not match, in size or angle.  So when you fit a new one, it only just touches and as soon as it has bedded in, it will not work.  The synchro cones you have, both old and new are not wasted as they are not really worn (look at the 'teeth' - a worn synchro cone has no teeth and is worn smooth) and can be re-used but you need a gear with the correct cone angle on the side of it.  So either you have to get another correct gear, or adapt the one you have or possibly have a smaller cone made.  One possibility might be to have the gear cone increased in size using the metal spraying technique to add material and then re-machine it back to the correct size and shape, but this would be expensive assuming it was possible.  There is also the heat treatment aspect to be taken into account which may prevent this.  I have been out of engineering too long to know all the 'ins' and 'outs' and there may even be a different or better way to do it now.  You would need to speak to someone currently in engineering for better advice.  However, I feel the easier way is to try to find a correct gear - it is not the cone that is the problem, it is the gear.

Roy

'506' was a 1.6 transaxle Jon so it is good it is not here!

That '95563397 Z' number cast in to the alloy looks like the Citroen number for this Matra casting.  It certainly follows their number pattern.

2.2 transaxles should be '510' or '2GE15' or '2GE17' but since the labels never stayed on long there is no way to find out what you have except by visually telling whether it is a 1.6 or 2.2 bell housing (which are quite different) and by the differences inside when you open them up!  Unsatisfactory but that is what we have.

Roy

Hi Herman.
I hope you are online and can tell me what is the outside diameter, and length, of the spring in the spanner.
I have tried to measure from the video and guess 7 mm outside and about 40 mm long. Is that close?

I find it strange that I have no spring. As I wrote, the spanner did not pop out like on the video and I cannot find a spreing in the oil-pan. My conclusion is that it was not installed by a previous owner. >:(

Using a magnet on a telescope shaft I fished the spanner out and plan to install it and the spring again in the same manner. I am sure it can be done but I need a spring that is close to original.

Wish me luck. ;D
/Jon

Just at home.
Been a bit busy the past few days.
This evening I have some time and will look into the things.
Don't worry about the spring.
If needed I have one or two avaiable.

Herman

Hi Herman.

That is outstanding. If you could spare a spring I would greatly appreciate it.v Just let me know how we arrange that.
Regzrds. Jon.

OK, measurements.
Looked the thing up and mede pictures.
It's always in the last storagebox  :-\
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-PRswgYo9ZUU/VAh3pDRx9OI/AAAAAAAAE4o/HXSwZXXsa3E/s800/P1070469%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-rU8T4F_AKtQ/VAh3otmmDTI/AAAAAAAAE4Y/q-UZElTatOQ/s800/P1070465%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-rHKr1CAxFNU/VAh3oJdIFFI/AAAAAAAAE4k/Nfq1QHLq3Mg/s800/P1070464%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-l2PlTl4f7Lw/VAh3n4x1yAI/AAAAAAAAE4s/Nt9xRP4__5k/s800/P1070461%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-EQY1RTJw550/VAh3nRSBQvI/AAAAAAAAE4M/x09bh0IfUYE/s800/P1070458%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-RMqPehSQaaU/VAh3nLPsS3I/AAAAAAAAE40/ksMF6pTu2Hc/s800/P1070457%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-CNbnNgDwcjw/VAh3n8WvEPI/AAAAAAAAE44/9FRyhbrat60/s800/P1070456%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-GRcKkRSIZBs/VAh3mc46JOI/AAAAAAAAE30/WgY6l9tz5Vg/s800/P1070455%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)


If you want the whole thing you can have it for shipment cost.
If you only want the spring then tell me.
Mail or PM me ad
matramaf@gmail.com

Herman. You are the man. ;D
I only need the spring, since I intend to attempt to assemble the spanner mechanism while the block is still mounted in the car. I will take pictures of how I do. ;)
I have a spring that could be cut to length and has the right outer diameter. But the wire is .78 mm, not .66 as yours. I am afraid it would be too stiff.
I will send you a PM.
Thanks. Jon

It's posted.

Regards Herman

Thanks. again.
By the way. Did you ever fit the high fifth gear set in your box?
I never got around to fitting mine. But now that the box will come off to install the 2nd. gear I got from our spare box, the high 5th gear will be installed.
I remember that you were interested in a shim that is needed. Do you still need one?
Regards.
Jon

P.S. I will update the other threads about high 5th. gear and the defective 2nd. gear when I finish the work. It has been a while since they were on top, so others might want to know.

5th gear is running for a while now.
Didn't need the shim but this box need 2nd gear doing to.
Therefore I have a 2.2 box from a accident car and that one is fine but will be checked.
I don't know if  the 5th has a Fiat/Lancia sync
Then I need one.
But that is for later.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-VJ2F17PUdVM/T2mWkN-DY3I/AAAAAAAABIQ/l0waLU4Ogz4/s800/P1010258.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-mciUfksnMnA/T2mWrMzlGUI/AAAAAAAABIw/_3QAvXK-CAA/s800/P1010264.JPG)

During this job I have filled the trailing arms with oil and closed all holes.
They wil not rust again.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-H9BO06sIDxg/T2mX_KGtQQI/AAAAAAAABLQ/RKO0I8CleEw/s800/P1010282.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-WLIB0R_KMVQ/VAm2hUusfSI/AAAAAAAAE54/nfFHm9IAw-U/s800/P1010290%2520%2528Custom%2529.JPG)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-FF3qDHiSVsE/T2mX_SP25gI/AAAAAAAABLM/-13TQcb84eQ/s800/P1010283.JPG)
Thanks for your offer but if needed you will hear me 8)

regards Herman

Hi Herman.
I didn't remember that the synchro fork needed to be modified, so thanks for the reminder  ;D
I assume you also had to modify the bell housing, right? It looks like the gear won't fit inside. Strangely, mine has already some modification done, but it does not seem to be enough. :(
Regards.
Jon.

I'm not sure if it is needed.
My friend  (mechanic I work with) took a bit of the back bellhousing.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-8T5B7AFamWo/T2mXxn2LzAI/AAAAAAAABKg/MC3c0eKo9cg/s800/P1010277.JPG)

Herman

I have a question that has been bothering me. When I took the head off to have it refurbished I backed off all the bolts on the rockers so there was no pressure on the cam shaft. Still, in order to get it out I had to hit it from the end with a nylon rod and a hammer. It did not slide out easily. Is it supposed to just slide out? ???

Now that I am reassembling it I again had to hit it with a hammer (wooden) to get it back in. It does not turn easily. There is a rather large amount of friction to overcome, but then it turns fairly easy for a bit before sticking again. It has been lubricated, so oil is present in all bearings. How easy is it supposed to turn? ???

I was surprised when I noticed that there is no bearing inserts for the cam shaft to turn in. Apparently it just turns in the aluminium that the head is made of.

So, if it is supposed to turn freely what could have happened. I talked to the guy who welded the cracks and he said that his work was so far from the cam bearings that no warping could take place. It did not get that warm there. Besides it was already sticking before he worked on it.

Can I just hone the bearing a little bit until the cam shaft slides in easy, or is it really supposed to be that tight a fit? ???

Hi Herman.

I have looked at the post about high 5th. gear and notice that all your nice pictures just show as a ? mark icon. Perhaps I do not have the right add-on app to show them. What format are they in?

Regards.
Jon.

Yep Thanks to imageshack that let them disappear.
That's why I no longer post them there.
I have uploaded all to Google now but did not everywhere made the links again.
I will see into it for this forum.
In the mean time the pics are  in this topic.

http://www.matramania.be/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1664

I had a lot of trouble with imageshack.
I had 3500 pics uploaded there and they gave me 14 days to reduce it to 500 or pay.
I'm a cheapskate and deleted 3000 pics.
It's a lot of work to link all content again om several forums.

Concerning the head I'm not sure if this is right but noticed something simmilair in a head that was on the table a whle ago.
I still could turn it by hand.
This is mounted in a car that is in engine resto from a fellow member.
That car is of road since 2 year now.
When he finnish the job we will now if everything is OK.

Herman

That is a lot of pictures..... ???

Yes, and all about Murena resto's

I have replaced the pics in that topic.
If alright they are visable now.

That worked beautiful. They are all visible now. Thanks. :D :D

Yes.


You have something wrong Jon.  Either the head is warped or the camshaft is bent.  Since it was like this before you stripped and had the repair, if it is warped, it was warped before the repair.

The camshaft should slide in and out easily and you should be able to spin it by hand.
 

Which is fine.  Many engines are like that.


No.  Don't do anything like that until both the head and cam have been measured for alignment.  You need to know what is faulty.  Imagine a bent cam - if you removed metal from the cam bores on the head you would have to take so much off to allow for the oscillation that the clearances would be too great and you would loose oil pressure.

If the head is warped, you could have the cam bearing holes line-bored but they have to be aligned with the head face otherwise as you torque the head down it will force them out of alignment again.

Years ago Dolomite Sprints had this problem where the heads were distorted and people skimmed them flat leaving the cam bearings out of alignment, and then they would snap the camshafts!  So the head face and cam bearing holes must be accurately aligned.  If you have to line bore the cam bearing holes then either they will have to be sleeved to bring them back to the original size to match the camshaft, or you would need cam bearings to take up the clearances.

Note the cam bearings are all different sizes.


Regarding the inside of the gearbox end casing, you do have to remove a little from the boss around the bolt holes otherwise the teeth of the larger gear will foul them.  You can check this easily as you offer the casing up to the new high fifth installation.

Roy

Thanks Roy.
I have tried another cam and it has the same difficulty fitting in the head and is just as tight when trying to turn it. There is no point, at which it is harder to turn the cam than another. I am therefore assuming that the cam is straight and the head is slightly warped. I will find a place that can re-bore the cam bearings.

My guess is that a previous owner did not torque the head bolts correctly, thus warping the head. Could that be thee reason?

/Jon

In the ultimate doom-scenario the block is bend.
Has happened before as Cornelis (the 2.2 guru overhere) told me.
Never seen it myself.
I don''t know if it's the case but I can imagine if it is, the head is misformed to.

Herman

Have also heared the rumour about the 2.2 block is bending often. Never saw one myself but maybe there is some truth behind.
Jonny, i think it´s time now to complete the V6 ;-)

Hi matramaniacs
The top of my 505 turbo block was also ”not flat” but I will not say that it was bended; consequently I had the top of the block planned. The same has been the case with a mate of mine who is working on a similar project in my workshop.
regards Hans

I already had the top planed, so I won't be able to "warp" it back to where the cam does not bind. >:(
Besides I do not know if the ends, or the middle, is bent up (or down).

The bend must be very small, since it is possible to get the cam inserted and able to turn it, even if with difficulty.

I will try to paint the bearings with a speed marker and see where the marker gets worn off.

/Jon

Since another cam is also tight, as you say, it does suggest the fault is with the head.

Before getting it line bored to re-align it, take the camshaft along too and explain that the cam normally runs directly in the head, which means there are no bearing shells that you could obtain as none were ever made.  So you need to know first if they can get hold of, or make some bearings after they machine it.  This may be the biggest problem.

As to how it happened - not sure really and there could be a few reasons, but the head bolts not being torqued down tight or correctly does not always cause distortion.  These heads are quite strong.  I have worked on some where the bolts were never re-torqued after 1,000 - 1,200 kms and have become loose, so the gaskets had blown but the heads were still straight.

If the block face was not flat it might have been the cause but then how did the head face get like that?  The block is cast iron and even more solid, so even harder to distort.  If you have had the block re-faced I hope they made sure this was square and aligned with the bores.

Roy

Took the head with the cam installed to the shop that fixed the cracks and did the valve job. The the cam checked out straight so he line bored the head with the cam measurements. Apparently it took off a few thousands of a millimetre in the centre bearings. No need for sleeves and the cam now turns as it was supposed to.

Still I find this strange.
The question is, what happened and what is the cause.
Could they tell you?

No, they had no idea. They say it is unlikely that the welding caused it. Another theory could be that the head was torqued wrong.
Anyway. Now it is straight and the cam rotates nicely.

Now for a success story.  ;D ;D ;D

I think I wrote that when we took the head off, the tensioner for the chain could not be secured. The screw just turned and there was no feel of a spring pushing it out.

In fact, after the chain was unhooked the piston in the tensioner remained in the block, when it should have popped out if a spring was in place. My guess is that the previous owner had the head off and lost the spring down in the oil pan (where it probably still is >:( )

But now for the success. Herman graciously sent me a new spring and I have successfully installed it and the tensioner piston and secured it as it was supposed to have been. :D

I first tried by lowering the spring down on a string and managed to get it into the tensioner block, where I held it in place with a magnet on a telescope shaft. I realised quickly that there was no way to then lower the piston down and engage it on the spring. There was just no room to move it around.

Next attempt was to loop a thin nylon line through the spring and then through the hole in the piston. That way both could be lowered at the same time. (make sure both ends of the line come out through the end of the spring so one side is not clamped between the spring and piston)
It turned out that there was no way to get an angle on the two that allowed the spring to be pushed into the block and keep the piston aligned. >:(

The solution was to drill a 2 mm hole through the rubber of the piston near the top. Then string another piece of nylon line through the hole. As can seen below that allow for the assembly to be angled and the direction controlled. I succeeded in getting the spring inserted into the block. ;D

But because of the angled piston head you cannot push it straight into the block and thus it binds. The solution was to slightly bend the end of a 5mm bar of aluminium and use the bent end to push on the piston. I didn't bend it quite enough but enough that a slight push on top with a long screwdriver allowed it to get inserted into the block.  :D

While holding tension on the bar with my forehead I was able to reach down by the engine and get a screwdriver  to turn the locking pin. IT WORKED. ;D The tensioner is now assembled and secured.
Finally cut the nylon lines and pull them out. ;)

Now to get the old spring out of the oil-pan (if it is still in there) ???

Give that man a medal!!  Re-assembling a 2.2 chain tensioner with the timing cover still on takes some ingenuity and perseverance.

Well done.

However, one word of caution: the two slipper pads should be close to the correct path of the chain and the curved one is adjustable.  I have found them too far away from the chain and leaving the tensioner to take up this excess slack.  When correctly adjusted the slipper removes most of the slackness and means the tensioner works closer in its body and has a longer life with less wear.  Since you have not had the timing cover off it will be difficult to tell how well adjusted the slipper pad is set.

Roy

Thanks Roy. ;D

The Danish language did pick up some new cuss words in the process. ::)

I will check how the slipper pad is adjusted when I remount the chain. It should be possible to get an idea before the end cover is mounted on the head.

When retired you can take the time to do it.
No boss is bossing around.
Well done, I'm sure I would have taken the engine out for it.

Herman

If I had a garage to work in I would probably also have taken the engine out. As it is the car is sitting the parking lot outside my friend, Jan's, house.
When Google update their street-view photos for Denmark you will see me sitting in the boot working on the engine. their camera van came down the street and turned around back in August, while I was there. ;D

You're Famous now  ;D

Update!
I had a apare cam lying about that Anders had given me and that I intended to have reprofiled to Holbay 58C specs.
After all the trouble so far with the engine and head I knew that if I did not get the Holbay cam now I newer would get it done.
So cam off to reprofiling and while it was away I finally found a blacksmith who could weld a new fitting on the exhaust manifold so I could mount a stainless muffler and "U" pipe that I bought from Anders 2 years ago.
It turns out that none of the big muffler chains do that kind of work anymore. They say there is no money in it, so they do not have the machines and only do standard parts. So check off one more challenge.  :D

Well then the cam came back and looked beautiful. However when I tried to install it I discovered that it did not fit.  :o The bearings were two tenths too big for the head.  ??? That should not be possible, and I had never measured them thinking it was a standard cam.
The bearings have now been ground to specs of the original cam and it is finally installed. :)

I now 'only' have the job of reassembling the engine, cooling pipes, electrical and pray I remember how, or have enough pictures to remind me. Then filling it with Evans Prep Fluid to remove water remains, and of course trying to start it.
Finally draining the prep fluid and filling with Evans waterless coolant.
Then off to MOT.

All that will probably take a day or two.  ;)

No harm in being optimistic, but it's a Matra and then it's possible it will take a few hours more :)

Well, two days have gone. The head is on and torqued. The distributor reinstalled and aligned. The exhaust manifold is hanging there with some of the bolts and the heat shield installed. I quit because of darkness and mist and drizzle.
Next I need to mount the cooling pipe under the intake manifold. I should have mounted it before the head was installed. >:(
There is almost no room for my big hands to get in there and loosen the two nuts on the manifold and mount the pipe. But I will succeed as there is no way the head is coming off again. ;)

If you can get the tensioner in without removing the engine this must be a piece of cake ;)
I'm sure you succeed.

Herman

Hello Herman.

You were right, of course.  ;D
Today I got ehe exhaust manifold completely fastened and torqued.
The cooling pipe under the manifold was not so difficult after all. Getting all the hoses attached turned out to be fairly easy. Since I had gotten stainless cooling pipes for the engine compartment I naturally could not be satisfied with the old rusty brackets that secure them. So new stainless brackets were made and mounted. That turned out to be more difficult than anticipated. I had to make extra holes and clamp them tight with a screw. Otherwise I could not hold them, get the bolt inserted and turn the bolt fastening them to the block. >:( There is only 2" between the brackets making it difficult get my fingers in there to turn the bolt. Fastening it requires a universal joint on the socket set. But it did get done.
Finally mounted the stainless, double exhaust pipe muffler and discovered that the U-pipe does not quite fit.  :(
Back to the Blacksmith to get 3/4" cut out and re-welded.

In fact almost nothing go easy on this cars.
You need to be as flexible as as a serpent to work in the back.
If I been there a few hours all my muscles are stiff.
And we call that fun ???

And the fun continues. :D
I now got all the coolant hoses and vacuum hoses connected. The carburettor is mounted. Still need to mount air-filter housing, fill Evans PrepFluid and attempt to start up and set the timing. That will have to wait for the U-pipe to come back from the blacksmith.  ;D

[/quote]
And the fun continues. :D

[/quote]
SUCCESS! ;D
Its on the road again.
Started right up, albeit a bit rough. Adjusting the timing took care of that .  :D
It still need to have the idle speed turned up a notch, due to the Holbay cam, but tomorrow.
Today I took it home and I can feel the extra power. ;D
I will try to get it on a rolling road to have it adjusted best possible.
But what a relief to have it running again. MOT on Monday, deadline is Tuesday, so in the nick of time. ;)

Just passed the MOT,  ;D but with remarks to have the right side steering "Lenkmancette" and both lower ball joints replaced. The joints had no play, but the seals were cracked. :(

Congratulations with succeeding the MOT and get it running again.
The price of lower and steering balljoints is not high but  Roy mentioned already that there  are rubber boots for it.
However, I did the same and it will take another 50 years before the new joints are end of life.

Herman

Thanks Herman.
I have a set of balljoints and a set of gaithers for the rack and pinion in stock, so I will do the repair one of these days.

By the way. Would you like me to return a spanner spring in good working order to you? ;) When I changed the oil I inserted a goose neck with a magnet into the oil sump and wouldn't you know... It came back with the original spring stuck to it.
It has been in there since before I bought the car.  :o

That's the trouble with springs.
These things jump around :D
You can keep the spring.
Maybe Roy wants it to complete a tensioner :)

Herman

About that different type of tensioner. Thats from Peugeot diesel engine (I dont remeber details). It can be used but tension covers need to be off before chain is adjusted on correct tense. One solution was to make hole on cover to release that tensioner. But It was easy to fit and seem working nicely. I have build one N9T engine with that type of tensioner.

V-M

Hi Roy.
I forgot to mention that I did check the position of the slipper pads. They appear to be set correctly. In fact there was very little slack for the tensioner to pick up. I am confident the setup is good.
Thanks for the warning.
Regards.
Jon.

When assembling the carburettor I had the spring in the photo left over. I know I removed it, but I cannot remember from where or see where it fits. On Jan's murena we don't see a spring like it.
Is there anyone who knows where it goes? ???

Hej Jon, could it be that this spring is not "standard" and just added to pull the "Drosselklappe" ( what it is called in eglish ? ) back. There are many 2.2 who have problems with the "Drosselklappe" because it it just sticks when the car is older.

You are probably right. I just do not see any obvious places that it can be attached to the choke (drosselklappe) .

The choke is hard to operate. The cable sticks and you have to push hard on the lever to turn it off again.  >:(
I do have a new cable somewhere and I will install it as soon as I can find it among the spare parts. :o

No no no, i don´t mean the choke. Google translate says it is called "throttle flap". Jeg mener denne runde skiver hvad sidder i karburatoren, hvormed gas bliver reguleret. The shaft, where it is screwed to, gets crooked when it is older. When the engine is getting warm and all parts are expanding it just stucks. There are many 2.2-owner who have attached a spring like yours to pull the throttle flap back.

Hmmm.... I will check that and see if that is a problem and where the spring can be attached. Thanks. :)

It is not a standard spring but as mentioned before the throttle hangs sometimes around 1500-2000 rpm.
I have that to and some grease and oil in the front around the paddle and cable  helps for a while.
I also think it is used in the back to help the throttle come back.

Herman

Do you have a picture of how the spring is attached?

Do you have a picture of how the spring is attached?
[/quote]

I saw it one time in 2007 on a 1.6 when I was looking for a Murena to buy.
I was attached on the airbox to the valve-lever at the carb.
The 2.2  I don't  know.
I still grease now and then.
It's on my todo list to make a new cable there and take the mech in the front appart.

Herman

I have searched the forum for any instructions on how to adjust the carburettor, but with no real luck.
I was hoping that perhaps Roy had a "How-to" guide, but now I cannot find one on that site.
Anyone?

Jon.

I still need to do that job on the CIC 34
I allready did the Weber on the 1.6.
Send you some files about the CIC.
Don't know if it's of any use.

Herman

That's good then Jon.  It's always best when the slipper pads are close and the tensioner has less slack to take up.

Regarding the spring from the tensioner, please keep it safe as it is always something that could be difficult to obtain if anyone needed one.  I have the tensioner from Herman and will be using it later but I have another tensioner that has the spring but another part broken so I will be making one good one from the two. :)

That spring you had left over from the carb. is definitely NOT an original part.  No Murena ever had anything like that.  I suspect someone had fitted it to try to get something that was too stiff, to return.

When you say 'adjust' the carb. Jon, do you need to adjust the idle mixture screw?  These are buried horizontally in the flange on the Solex 34 CIC.

Let me know what the problem is and how you think it needs adjusting and I'll consider it.  These are a 'fixed jet ' carb. so generally should need very little adjustment.  You only have an idle screw and the idle mixture screw, and it is rare that the idle mixture screw needs adjustment.  It only affects the idle setting and the transition to main system anyway.  If you have an emission problem it is often something else that is causing the problem.

Roy

Hi Roy.
Herman send me drawings of the carb that shows that the idle mixture screw can be in two places. Mine is facing the engine. When I first got the car I kept looking on the side where there is a hole matching the other location. My car has always smelled like it got too much gas at idle.
At the MOT I was told that the CO in the exhaust was ok, but it was running very rich.
I will try to adjust the idle mixture while measuring the exhaust with a lambda probe.
Also I need to replace the choke cable. It is very hard to push back, so perhaps that is where the extra spring was used. Will check to make sure choke is fully open with the cable pushed in.

Jon.

Also when adjusted mine smells like a car from the 60s  ;D
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-grw31HP_nT4/VJk1G_zKH3I/AAAAAAAAF0k/63EYewoEdXs/s640/coafst.jpg)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-YDLaJjo9_rs/VJk1GyXEM5I/AAAAAAAAF0g/zGmKc94dslc/s640/co2.jpg)

Yesterday I replaced the choke cable. The biggest challenge was removing and reinstalling the clip that holds it in place in the centre console.
I also had to bend the clip a little bit in order to hold the cable tight, since the new outer cable sleeve was thinner than the original.
After attaching the cable to the choke lever and feeding it through the hole in the bottom of the console, I taped the ends of the old and new cables together with gaffa tape and pulled on the old cable from the engine compartment. After a little bit of tugging and twisting the new cable appeared. :D
Got it fastened to the carburettor and adjusted. It now is smooth and easy to operate.
Cranked the engine on the third try and drove a short 10 Km trip to the gas station and cleaned the windows.  :)

Pulling in to the carport I had it almost in place when the engine stalled. No power to start it again ??? so it is sitting there waiting for the next challenge: Finding out why it did not charge. I have a new alternator, but the battery is 5 years old and has not been regularly charged for the past 2 1/2 years.  :(
To top it off, my electronic battery charger quit working. Taking it apart and measuring the components it appears that the thyristor is blown. >:(

So after getting a new battery charger  and charging the battery again I found that I could start the engine about five times and then there was not enough juice to start it again. Checking the wiring to the alternator and comparing to the photo I took of it before replacing it, I see that it is wired up correctly. Trying out my new multi-meter with clamp-on Amp measurement (to 1000 amps  ;D ) I found that the alternator puts 19 amps into the battery, so conclusion is that the battery needs replacement.
Wednesday the battery was replaced. (positive left pole is not easy to come by. most have positive right apparently) We shall see if that helped.

Last summer I had both Murena's the battery bad.
I bought 2 for low price (conventional calcium battery 45 aH).
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-0xwr9q6bRqk/UmqD681JWcI/AAAAAAAAD00/ND2sdLUZkuw/s800/P1060551%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-SBjFGVoW2Ss/UmqD6p9visI/AAAAAAAAD0s/np50ZNbZeNc/s800/P1060550%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)

They last about 4-5 years because of periods standing still.
My 2.2 it last longer because of electric fuelpump.
After 2 months standing still it takes 2 seconds to start the car.
It saves the battery in the long run.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ijobcezuHYs/UmqD6FRmMII/AAAAAAAAD0k/nh-weBBFCzo/s800/P1060549%2520%2528Medium%2529.JPG)

Herman