MatraSport Forum

Hi Guys

any pointers on this ?

had one injector chuffing away, so pulled it out, re seated, new washer and re-assemble, that went ok


started her up, fired up straight away, made small rattle sound,so turned off,
tried to start again and just turns over, wont even try to catch.
tried some easy start as though maybe just needed to pull diesel through as been off road for 2 months
wont even run on easy start, sometimes it will try but just for a split second.

put the clip on and have a few errors,

DF019 - flow sensor circuit - I have the MAF & air box disconnected
DF022 - Ait temp sensor circuit - CO1 - old fault
DF052 - External Temperature sensor - CC - again think this is old fault but comes back after clearing
DF085 - Water Temp - CC - old fault like above, 
Pre heat relay circuit CC1 - this is an old fault and always been fine with this even in cold weather

I did have to charge the battery as went flat being left standing for two months
don't think it holds charge like it used to, its probably 3 years old now at least

checked the following via clip

Pressure in gallery 4 Bar - thought this should be higher ?
rail pressure loop variation 298 Bar
gallery pressure valve  RCO - 5%
engine speed  when cranking varies between 220 and 280 RPM, sometime with easy start is tries to catch
and RPM went to about 1500RPM

Not sure what the RPM on cranking should normally be so removed TDC sensor as known problem
not very dirty, but cleaned up and refitted, but no change in recorded speed

when switch ignition on you can hear the low pressure pump run, and also you can hear the fuel running through the
high pressure pump , would this be normal ?

reading through old posts someone said cambelt slipped on theirs, would have thought I would have got
error for TDC + cam not matching up

also wondered about high pressure pump, but would have thought would have run a bit on easy start


any pointers for me to look at ?

cheers


Age

It should run with easy start, or we prefer to use cockpit shine! the propellant is not as strong as easy start so you don't get the big rattle. I guess you wont get it going until you find what the noise is. Do you have compression, these are famous for breaking the rockershaft, thus the valves not opening enough. The problem with the tdc sensor is normally a broken wire/ poor connection. Causing non start & cutting out under load. obviously f your coolant sensor is faulty then it is not going to inject the correct amount of fuel. You appear to have one or more glow plugs not working. Two good ones will get it going but if three or mor have gone you have problems. Anyway as I say it should kick with easy start. Maybe worth removing the rocker cover to check the rocker shaft.

Cheers Brian

does not make the rattle sound anymore, just did it on the first start, so switched off and then would not restart.
turns over with no un-usual noises, no bangs , rattles or grinding

I will check the rocker

can the cover be taken off with engine still in the car ?

I know the injectors have to come out for this, but what about the glow plugs ?
as I know sometimes they are pigs to get out.

Age

You can take the cover off with the glow plugs in place. once the cover is off you can get to the gplugs easy. Then you can check them. Also check the cam timing. The problem with the crank sensor is that it does not show a fault on clip. make sure it is pushed against the flywheel & check the continuity to the ecu. Last one of these I bought dead ended up having a new ecu due to knackered injectors. Obviously have the injectors cleaned, you will be surprised how well it will start & run after being done. Even if you only clean them in an ultrasonic bath. Strange it does not cough on easy start. Get a new Rocker cover gasket though. They do leak around the injectors after a time.

Cheers Brian

will have a go at getting the cover off tomorrow as Ive got the car at a friends farm
and will report back with any findings

Age

Finally got the cover off

seems to have a fair bit of very thin oil in the cover, probably a mix of oil and easy start !

the tip of one of the injectors also seems to have broken off (only a small bit, about 1mm)

I also removed the EGR valve assembly to see how bad that was and it has been a few years since I cleaned it
small amount of the oil mixture here and also the pipe from the intercooler to the EGR assembly has about a pint
of oil mixture in as well, that's probably a good reason why not starting as I don't expect much air in the mix

The gaskets on the cover seemed ok apart from one place this was on the cam belt end of the central gasket
which had slight damage on the gasket around the injector/glow plug area

forgot to take photos !

just wondering if its easier to just drop a replacement engine in, flush the pipes
and maybe change the turbo at same time rather than mess about with it
mine has done about 190k and have seen a 60k engine for sale, though they want £500 for it
would probably have to get a garage to change it

thinking about it I wonder if its an oil/diesel mix ?

not enough easy start would have been used to thin it that much
the oil in the sump is certainly thicker

if the tip of an injector broke off, would the injector then flood the inlet with diesel
which would then be pulled round the system, causing the build up of the oil/diesel mixture

its certainly mixed well whatever it is, looks like very thin oil,
don't smell of oil and don't smell of diesel, but could be the smell of a mixture !

There is always oil in the air system but yours is far too much!!! Poss the oil seal on the back of the turbo is on its way out.  But this would make it smokey. If an injector was leaking it would just go into the cylinder & cause a misfire again it would smoke.
You say you could hear fuel through the pump. Often this is air re-circulating to the tank. There is a bleed valve on the filter to rid air from the system.
With the right spanners you can get the turbo out in an hour. You can get a rebuild kit for less than £50

Its easy now to get the faulty glow plugs out & clean the injector seats. Maybe glow plugs, clean injectors & no oil in the intake is what it needs. These are expensive second hand engine units, Cheaper to buy a complete  scrapper car from gumtree as a donor.

Cheers Brian

It sometimes did smoke on start up but after a quick burst it would settle down to be clear

as I said its very thin oil,  mixed possibly with diesel
though it could be there was only a small amount of oil and its mostly diesel
and its just picked up the oil that coats the inside of the pipes


If it was oil coming from the turbo would it be thin like this ? or just normal thickness

don't really want to scrap it, love it too much even though its getting a bit ragged round the edges :)

I was thinking about cleaning everything out, suck out anything that might have gone into cylinders (oil etc)
fit new gasket set and 2nd hand injector and then see what happens, that's about £60 so not too bad if still no good

got covered in it when I took the rocker off as I lifted it off and turned it over to look inside for any cracks etc and it poured all over me ! think it was in the expansion box part of the cover (rectangle shape at the front)

there might have been more than 1 pint in the intercooler pipe, so don't think it would be able to suck any air

will try and look at it again tomorrow

Age

The rocker cover could be cracked letting oil into the inlet system, maybe the amount of unburnt fuel is re-circulating via the egr thinning the oil plus the easy start solution.

cheers

Will clean the cover up and check it properly

hopefully this should be links to the gasket damage and the damaged injector

am wondering if the tip on the injector was damaged or blocked and the pressure blew the end off
and I guess that might have been the rattle sound I heard when first started
Its certainly a big hole in the end of it now , and you can see the needle


http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x199/ab9000/injector.jpg

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x199/ab9000/gasket.jpg

just noticed there is a dent near the tip of the injector, see photo below
I'm not sure if it was there before I refitted or not.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x199/ab9000/injector2.jpg

I remember when I took the injector out I rested it on the slam panel, and forgot I did
then it started to rain so I closed the bonnet (not slammed but I think I did push is closed properly on the latches)
so I could have dented it then, maybe causing a fracture to the tip which then blew off due to pressure
or maybe there is a damaged valve which then hit the injector
If a valve was snapped I would have thought it would be very noisy on turn over, where as it seems fine.

not sure if I should go the whole way and get the head off as well, though don't fancy all that

Hiya, I don't know anything about these engines so this is just a general comment.
I don't think you have any choice but to take the head off. Too many unknowns. You don't know how much damage has been done to the bore or piston by the shrapnel from the injector.
Take the head off and examine the bores. If they look kaput go with replacing the engine. If they look ok, get the head reconditioned and rebuild the engine. You'll then have a known good top end. Turbos, injectors and EGRs etc can then follow. You'll have to get at least one injector anyway.  I suspect it won't cost in if you don't do the work yourself so the other option is, as already mentioned, buy another (maybe with damaged interior/bodywork) and make one good one out of 2.
Good luck!
Graham

cheers Brian & Graham

cleaned the manifold/cover assembly, cant see and damage to it
so think its just had severe over fuel due to damaged injector

I might have a go at getting the head off, not sure if it can be taken off with the engine
still in the car, had a quick search on the web and seems like the engine HAS to come out first

anyone done one with it still in the car ?

age

You obviously have an electronically controlled diesel engine. You also say the MAF sensor and air box are disconnected together with a bunch of fault codes. Why is it disconnected?

I would suggest that before you go delving into other reasons for non starting that you replace all of the sensors noted as defective and clear the codes ( the MAF disconnected on its own can prevent starting) Why is the MAF disconnected, looks like you might need to replace that as well
As for your glow plugs, replace them all, they are not that expensive on e-bay.   
The engine ECU can only work properly from the information received from its sensors and given the number of codes you have, the poor thing does not stand a chance telling the engine what is needed.

As for the injector with the broken tip, I would be more worried about where it went as it could quite easily find its way into the cylinder and that could cause a lot of problems.
The glow plugs can be tested on the bench with the aid of a good battery and a couple of fly leads to tell you if they are functioning properly. You might also check if the glow plug relay is working properly.

I think your assumption is right. The tip is well broken, you can replace it with a second hand one. The rattle being the tip in the bore & then it may have hydraulic'd & stopped. Either the tip is in the barrel or in the cat now. So as yer half way there with the cover off then you may as well have the head off. I don't see any reason why you cant do this in the car.

The car will start & run with the maf disconnected. Most clip errors end up being bad connections rather than sensors due to French wiring!

Don't altogether agree with you on this one Brian. Our 1990 Espace developed a problem, it would start and run but as temperature increased it bogged down and eventually stopped. The fault was a dicky temperature sensor screwing up the mixture control giving a sort of choke on situation and nothing to do with the wiring, similarly when the oil light came on it was the oil pressure sensor, again not the wiring.
We deal with a lot of OBD2 code problems here and so far none of the codes have been generated by wiring faults, they have all been sensors going wrong. It gets worse when the car is also fly by wire.

As for Renaults dodgy wiring, our Renaults range from 1974 to 1992 Petrol models with the F8Q engines and to date have had no wiring faults on any of them.

Now the Renault Safrane is another story, that was a complete horror in the electrical department. I cannot say if Renault wiring has degenerated on later models, but if a code comes up I would still start diagnosis from what the 0OBD 2 is saying (no ours is not a hand held devise it is fully lap top integrated and will also provide live run time data)

The very first thing here which no one seems to have picked up on is the fuel pressure.  You say the clip only shows 4 bar - do you mean the common rail pressure is only 4 bar on cranking?  It should be at least 160 bar to even start up.  At idle it should be near to 300 bar.  That 298 bar loop variation is basically saying it is 298 bar from what it should be.  The 4 bar sounds like the pressure developed by the low pressure pump that feeds the high pressure pump.  The rattle could have been the high pressure pump breaking up and now you have no high pressure.  Cranking rpm sounds correct - it should be around 250 rpm.

Roy.

thanks for all the input guys. much appreciated

finally got round to getting the head off

well and truly damaged !

looks like one of the valves snapped, which then caused the tip of the injector to break off
which I then think stayed open , flooding with diesel, which then got sucked through the system
eventually blocking the inlet pipe & manifold so no air could get into the fuel mix
tip of the glow plug is also broken off

here's some lovely pics of the damage

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x199/ab9000/brokenvalveampheaddamage.jpg

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x199/ab9000/pistonwithembeddedvalve.jpg


Think I will just drop another engine in rather than replace head and piston etc
the engine has done about 186k

Ouch
Good luck with that, hope it goes smoothly!

Roy,
We all spotted that, so obvious. We just left that for you.......     ;)

Ah, so you found the cause of the rattle!  Expensive!!


Wise decision.  I think it will be a lot of work, time and money trying to repair that one.


And you were absolutely correct GrahamT when you said there was no option but to take the head off and investigate that rattle and broken injector tip.  Good call.

Roy

finding it hard to get replacement engine now :(
the one I was after has now been sold :(

mine has the G9T 710

are any of the other variants compatible with the 710 ? ie 642 etc
am not sure what the differences are

for example some people list different cambelt kits but the  "gates" kit has the same part number for the 710,645,742 & 743 variants and many others for laguna and the Nissan & movano

http://www.gatesautocat.com/article/K015573XS

Ive checked the bore, which appears undamaged so I could probably get away with replacing the piston & head
would make it a lot easier for me as don't have anything to lift an engine with !

Here is one for parts
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vauxhall-Movano-Renault-Master-2-2-DCI-G9T720-G9T-720-complete-engine-spares-/121569762780?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item1c4e1f5ddc

I'm not sure if it would go again or how bad it may be. But worth investigating.

thanks for that Brian

I messaged them to see if they would take the head off to check the piston/valves
as listing says the timing has jumped and wont start,
and they eventually said that they would not do that and I would have to take the chance
but as the listing says it wont start I think it probably has got some damage
though compared to what some people want its a bargain

however, I have now managed to get a replacement head and piston for £120
so I have started to fit that.

I was a bit worried after reading the PDF's of the engine on the forum as it says some engines
have a balance shaft unit, luckily mine has not got this, as the damaged piston is at the gearbox
end I just swivelled the oil pump out of the way, If it was at the timing end I think I would have been
stuck as would have had to remove the pump, which looks like all the gears would have to come off
def an engine out job.

anyway back to the job in hand

Is there a way to tell when setting the TDC that it is actually the proper TDC rather than 360 out ?
I know some people have rebuilt these and it would not start unless they swopped the connectors round
on the injectors as the crank was 360 out , and so the signal from the sensor was at the wrong point

Is there anyway to get a reading from the TDC sensor on the flywheel
or are there any other markings to show proper TDC


I hope that makes sense, or am I missing some thing glaringly obvious :)


One bargain I picked up was a full gates timing belt kit with the pulleys for £19.01 !

Hiya, as I said before, I'm not familiar with these engines but they all work on the same principle (ish :-) ) and I thought I'd give you something to mull over!

TDC is easy enough to set. Just put the piston at the top of it's stroke. Lock it there if you can (on the older Espace you could put an 8mm dowl into the crank)

The important thing is to set the cam so that No. 1 cylinder is on the firing stroke. This is when both inlet and exhaust valves are fully closed.

There should be (in an ideal world, but this IS Renault!) markings on the cam shaft sprocket(s) to indicate the correct position and I wouldn't mind betting that the instructions on fitting a new cam belt (timing belt) would describe this. (just googled and found this...  http://www.tooled-up.com/artwork/ProdPDF/SEAINSVS4760v2.pdf )

With the piston and valves set it should just then be a case of the sensors (camshaft and crankshaft) telling the ECU when to fire the correct injectors.


Hope that's somewhere near!!
Good luck,
Graham

Thanks for that Graham

Think I might have sussed it to make sure it is at real TDC
I removed the Camshaft sensor (actually located near rear of pump)
and there is a mark of the gears behind, which you can feel with your finger
or can use a mirror to check

so the crank should now be at real TDC

might be a few days before I can get to do anymore work on her
but will update asap


Age

Nice to hear you got your parts ok. No modern engine uses tdc marks to time the camshafts. If the pistons are at tdc then you can't turn the cams because the valves will foul the pistons. There is a bolt in the front of the engine near the starter that you take out to insert a pin through. You will see a hole for the pin in the crank. Timing the cams is a little harder without the tool but you can do it by eye. You can see that there is a slot in each cam behind the wheel, it is off center. These are for the timing tool to slot into. The slots should be upright. If there is a mark for tdc on the flywheel you will have to remove the crank sensor to see it, it may be a missing tooth! The sensor is on the back of the engine just around the driveshaft area. Hope it all goes well.

cheers Brian

I treated myself to a proper timing locking kit as I saved so much on the cambelt kit :)

head now on, with new timing belt & pulleys, not a lot of space to do that, few scrapes & cuts now !
the old tensioner was starting to get noisy, old belt seemed fine, but probably due for a change anyway

timing all seems to be spot on, though I notice that number 3  exhaust (number 3 from timing end) is just starting to open
but as the timing pins and camshaft locking bars are all in place as they should be I guess that's right

just got to get round to fitting all the water pipes etc and new fluids
and then fingers crossed it might start, if not its been a good learning experience !

As long as you are using the tool so the cams & crank are locked in place then don't worry about what the valves are doing. Did you get your injectors cleaned? if not just sit the tips in oven cleaner or paint stripper. You'll be surprised at how little smoke there is at start-up. Let me know if you want to sell the tool. Look forward to hear that it is running.

Before you do anything, turn the engine over by hand a few times first!
Good luck Age

thanks Guys

I was planning on doing some work on her yesterday
but I suffer from fibromyalgia amongst other things and was in so much pain
bit better today, but think I will rest for a day or two otherwise it might flair up again

will let you know how it goes (or not as the case may be )

I may be able to help you with this check your admin area as I just pm'd you

Finally got everything back together

and.........wont start :( turns over ok, no sign of trying to catch though

am wondering if the timing is out as was not sure if pistons were at real TDC or not
though I did think I had worked it out, am sure I read somewhere that if this is the
case you can swop leads to 1 & 4 and 2 & 3 injectors, was getting dark so have not tried that yet

or am wondering if the intercooler is blocked with old fuel ? I guess if it was that would also stop it from starting
I guess if it is blocked and I disconnect the pipe from the intercooler then it should get some air again and should start ?

I forgot to take laptop with me so I could not get any readings from the clip

so will connect the clip up tomorrow and see what errors (if any) come up

Age

If you lined it all up putting the belt on, then it won't be far out  ;)    There is only one TDC. When the piston is at the TOP of it's stroke, Dead Centre.  The tool will lock the cams into the correct position.
Besides, it turns over ok, no valves hitting pistons. So it can't be so far out it won't fire.

I guess you've got compression? (clue - it isn't whizzing around like a spin dryer!)
It should at least make some attempt to fire, or backfire, at least so I think you are back to normal fault finding and you need to look at other things that will stop it running.

One thing you need is fuel so, as Roy suggested earlier, check the fuel pump.
Good luck!

(If there's any doubt about the intercooler then, yes, disconnecting it from the inlet will allow air in. However, it is very unlikely that it will be blocked completely and should be obvious if it is. There shouldn't be any fuel in it at all. The only thing it passes is air and maybe a bit of oil if the turbo seals are a bit leaky.)

forget about TDC!!!  You need to remove the bolt in the front of the engine & insert a locating pin in. Turn the crank by hand until you locate it in the crank locking it in position. This is the correct position for timing with the locking tool. :)

timing was locked with pin and the two camshaft holders, so that should be spot on
was adjusted according to the PDF on the Matra site and same details were also with the belt kit

cant really do much until I get the Clip connected and see if that says anything
and can check fuel pressure etc

might be able to check tonight otherwise wont be until sunday

Ok thats great, so it will be a goer. You may need to tow it around the block with your foot on the throttle just to clear out any remaining diesel that may be in it. Did you check the intercooler pipe below the egr. If its full of diesel then it would be a problem. last thing you want is a cylinder full of fuel!

cheers

sadly I think its now a scrapper :(

connected CLIP and good pressure in rail and engine speed when turned over
no errors apart from the ones its always had regarding thermo plungers Etc.

tried little bit of easy start. no difference

disconnected pipe from intercooler to EGR, no difference so connected back up


so thought I would swop 1-4 & 2-3 injector cables
did this and was a small sign of trying to start, little bit easy start and it tried to catch even more
eventually it started,

Great I thought, was running a bit rough as if on three cylinders and then it cleared and
ran ok but did not seem to have much power

I did fit a new fuel filter so rough idle might have been due to this

Then I saw the plume of white smoke appearing at the rear of the car. B*****ks !
thought I would take car outside to save filling the garage up
was hoping that it might clear, I know unlikely due to it being water in chamber
but maybe hoping there was some un-burnt fuel in exhaust (not sure if that's white or not)

when outside it stared quickly but seemed to lack any power
gave it a couple of quick burst on the accelerator and the crappy thing started to run away !
loads of white smoke , of course would not stop with the key so quickly stalled it against the garage wall

not tried starting again, probably not a good idea

oh well it was a good learning experience and I now know how much work is involved in doing
a job like this

replacement grand espace needed



RIP 2002 Espace 2.2 dci :(

hmm,

I always thought whitish smoke was due to water
but getting conflicting info on the web.
some places say its unburned fuel

if that's the case I am wondering if there is some fuel left in the intercooler
from when valve snapped sending fuel back into the inlet system
and its pulling some of this in when started and when I revved it its pulling more though
which is making it run by itself

in which case If I remove the intercooler and flush it out it might be able to be saved

If I remove the pipe from intercooler to EGR then it wont be able to pull anything through the intercooler
and I guess the smoke should stop if that is the cause of the trouble

how easy is it to get the front of the car off and remove the intercooler ?
anyone done this

or am I barking up the wrong tree ?

I'm not sure how the intercooler could get so much fuel in it, but it sounds feasible if that is the case.
On intercoolers I know about  ;D  there's a pipe going in to it from the turbo and a pipe coming out which goes to the inlet manifold.
Just remove the pipe from the inlet manifold and make sure nothing big can get sucked in (nuts, bolts, washers, etc.) Some fine mesh will do for a short test.
Don't give up yet!!  :)

cheers Graham

I'm still not sure if white smoke is water or fuel
so much conflicting info on the web

if fuel could do it then hopefully I just need to give the intercooler a good clean :)

when the valve snapped there was about a pint of diesel in the pipe and also some in part of the rocker cover
I guess some might also have got into the exhaust system as well

I might take the intercooler pipe off and see how much smoke there is then
I am thinking that if a fair bit of fuel went into the pipe then there could still be some in the cooler
as the pipes connect about half way up the cooler so it would not have emptied fully


If it is the turbo and its pulling oil through then I thought that would be black smoke
or is that not always the case

not done any work on diesels before now (apart from new glow plugs in an old 1989 Pug 205, so I think I have done well for a first attempt

If its not knocking or has a serious misfire then it's not a scrapper yet! Yes sounds like you have to purge any excess diesel or oil in the inlet system. Try running it on easy start only, just short regular bursts. you should be able to run it with the hose from the turbo disconnected. That way the turbo will just empty the intercooler of any fluid without the need to take anything apart. If in doubt disconnect the vac hose from the solenoid to the turbo. Its on the bulkhead by the break master cylinder so it should'nt run away with itself.
Yer getting there!

popped up to the car quickly
and disconnected the pipe from intercooler to EGR
seemed a little bit wet, but not loads

I also disconnected the inlet pipe to the intercooler from the turbo (big metal pipe over top of engine)
that seemed all nice and dry, so looks like it is just fluid in the intercooler

however it wont start again :(
only managed to try for a few mins as the battery went flat

could not connect the clip as did not take laptop as did not think I would need it

battery now on charge and will try again tomorrow

hopefully its just an airlock stopping it from starting or something has gone wrong again :(
cant see that disconnecting the intercooler pipe and the vacuum pipes you said about Brian
would stop it starting, I connected the vacuum pipe back up and tried anyway and still would not start

yesterday It only revved high for no more than 10 secs which is probably less that what they do at an MOT
so hopefully it did not cause any damage

If I can get it to start I might take the intercooler out so I can give it a proper flush out to be on the safe side

Just of a thought, did you take notice of the smell of the smoke coming out of the exhaust? I know from personal experience, unburnt diesel does have a particularly strong "burnt" like smell that doesn't burn properly. To describe it, smelt like something electrical is going. (Its freaked me out a few times when I've tried to start mine and the glow plugs have gone "screw you".).

Or get a working diesel engine from the scrapper/ebay. :-)


EDIT: I know a lot of people on here are more experienced than me and probably know this (being as I only know how diesel engine works and not a trained mechanic - or fitter), but sometimes, diagnosing a fault needs a lot of info and this chart is quite useful.
http://www.uniteddiesel.co.uk/diesel-engine-problems

See if any of the symptoms match yours. In other words, don't always rely on Clip, its useful like using an OBD reader to fix someone elses fault on a petrol Corsa and why it was misfiring, someone didn't plug an injector in properly!

went up to car earlier, did not get very far with anything

There was a power cut over night so the battery charger re-set and so did not fully charge the battery

however even worse is the Laptop has gone wrong now , ARRGGH !!
It took over an hr to get it running (of sorts), was very slow in loading the CLIP
and then said there was an error loading.

so am now sorting the laptop out and battery on charge again

hopefully better luck tomorrow

I did notice some oil around the EGR valve assembly that was not there before so
probably residue from when it sucked the oil/diesel mix from the intercooler
I might strip the EGR and assembly down again and check to see if its flooded

took the EGR out, little bit oil/diesel mixture

took intercooler out (a lot easier than I thought it would be )
very little if any fluid in it, will flush it out anyway

not tried starting again yet as thought it might be an idea to take the
rocker/inlet manifold off again in case there is any fluid in there
or does anyone think that turning the engine over will eventually get rid if there
is anything in there, would turn over with fuel disconnected so that no extra gets into the system
and hopefully will purge any fluid from the system

what do you guys think ?

I can't imagine you need to take the inlet off. Start it up again & be prepared if it runs away. With the vac off the turbo it should start but will be lacking in revs. I know your frustration with the pc, mine take 5mins to startup & another couple to load clip. But then its fine. Fingers firmly crossed for you XXXX

I agree with Brian, can't see any need to take the inlet off. Or rocker cover.
A compression test would confirm pistons and valves all ok, but its not as straightforward as a petrol car, unfortunately.
Can the fuel pressure be measured, as in the old fashioned way with a pressure gauge?
Does the fuel system need bleeding or priming?
I have seen injectors removed from the engine and with the engine turning over you can see them firing into small jars. Might be worth it to confirm they are injecting?
Persevere with the CLIP thingy.

Other than that, can't think of anything else.
Same here... fingers crossed dude...

Did not do much testing today as was getting dark by the time I got to the car
and only wanted to try with car outside in case it ran away
Battery does not seem to last very long in the car so could not test for very long
will use a booster next time

engine turns over fine (reads between 220 and 250rpm on the clip)

problem I seem to get is on the pressure in the gallery readings
started out giving a good pressure reading around 300psi
this reading drops quite quickly after stopping cranking
Im sure when I tested a year or so ago the pressure did not drop

the reading in the pressure difference reading was only about 5psi
so think that was ok,

However the pressure readings are now fluctuating to the extent that the rail pressure
can be anything between 5 (FIVE) psi and 196 psi
the pressure difference reading goes from 200 to -1250 (MINUS) !!
these readings change very quickly , you don't get a constant reading and
can go straight from a minus reading to normal reading almost instantly

am wondering is the regulator on the back of the pump or the switch on the high pressure rail is at fault ?
no fuel leaks that I can locate anywhere on low pressure of high side

fuel rate was given at about 55 according to the clip

Im also no longer sure where the bleed valve on the fuel filter should be now as tried in several positions
anyone got a picture of where it should be for normal running ?

Ive also got the EGR valve disconnected as Ive taken it out to clean it
don't think that would stop it from starting though

Think you have to sort the fuel pump out. No idea how though, sorry.
As far as the EGR goes, I'm pretty sure it has to be blocked off. Everything I've read about them (if you're not going to just leave it as is) is centered around blocking them off. They allow gas into the inlet so, it's basically an unmetered air leak. If you can have such a thing on a diesel!!  ???

if it is doing this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRENy2yZLto  then nothing to worry about. We decided it was clip/ecu not keeping up. didnt do anything to the running. It was a non starter/cutting out under load. Turned out to be a bad  connection on the crank sensor. Even though it was showing a reading under cranking.

cheers guys

Looked at the vid Brian, that's the sort of thing I was getting regarding negative pressure

hmm, getting strange pressure readings in the rail

when first I tried earlier the rail pressure was only 6psi :(
however I then started to get 310 in the rail, when cranking
does not start so keep cranking and the pressure just goes down and down until it ends up at 9psi
turn off ignition and then it does the same again

so looks like the pressure is not building up for some reason, could be pump with leaky seals
or maybe the valve on the pump. I did energise the valve via the clip and all you can hear is
some high pitched sound coming from the valve, don't know if that normal or not or a sign of a problem

I will take it off tomorrow anyway and see what its like, I have heard these can go faulty
I do have a new low pressure pump here, got it ages ago, so might fit it in case the old
one is not lifting enough fuel

one thing I noticed , I have the pipe from head to EGR removed (the one that takes exhaust to the EGR)
and this does give out some smoke when cranking, so I guess its just unburned fuel ?

The clip shows air temp as 50 degrees C, no way is the air temp that
guess that's the one in the door mirror

One thing the car is doing now is when ignition on, the car after a few seconds displays "OK"
then the time comes up and a couple of seconds later the zig-zag comes up on the display

I really think there is not much stopping the car from starting its just trying to find it !

Its all very strange indeed, but not uncommon! Check the pdf for the fuel filter so that you get the air bleed the right way. You should be able to hear the fuel pumping around the pipes & any air. Don't suppose you knocked the fuel cut-off switch by any chance? Will it run on easy start?

was thinking the zig-zag might be because I disconnected the vacuum pipe from the turbo actuator
and also as I took the intercooler off for cleaning I also took the pipes off to clean as well
so the pressure sensor is disconnected (the one in the pipe from intercooler to EGR)

not tired again on easy start, guess that would be a good idea to try again
unless I have another mechanical fault I think its probably fuel related now
just seems a bit strange so much has gone wrong at the same time

might try the old fuel filter as I guess its possible the "new" one could be faulty

hopefully I can spend a bit more time on it today rather than the odd hr here and there

Ment to say, air temp is measured in the maf. Is it connected? The sensor in the mirror (outside temp) only does the dash temperature as far as I'm aware. Reconnect the sensor in the inlet, disconnect the maf. Give it a go with easy start.

Cheers Brian

yes MAF disconnected at the moment
will connect inlet sensor and try some easy start later

have not tried easy start yet as wanted to put something to you first :)

I put my fingers up inside the inlet manifold/rocker cover
and there is a think gunky mess inside, so I think when it pulled any diesel through the intercooler
it has probably brought a load of crap in with it that was in the intercooler

I did fully clean this before I put the car back together, so don't know if it is best to remove and fully clean again
or if the car does start that it will eventually clear it anyway

I know it means reseating the injectors again with new washers and gasket set for the cover
I don't actually mind doing injector washers, Im quite quick at doing them now
helps having the proper injector puller from Renault


I did however take the valve off the back of the HP pump

connected CLIP and told it to activate it, the valve makes two different high pitched "tones" ( in & out ? )
but nothing moves on the valve, though not sure if you are meant to be able to see any movement or not
anyone know ? I would have thought the end of the valve would move in and out , if it does then
this one is jammed solid

If the manifold is bad then the gunk is going to end up clogging the cat! So best clean it out. You should'nt need new injector washers, I just run them on a piece of emery/sand paper. The gasket set should go again also, I doubt the silicon sealant has gone off just yet. I don't know if you will see movement in the solenoid. It is a regulator valve to my knowledge & will have minimal adjustment. I think!

Cheers Brian

will take the cover off and clean just to be on the safe side

on the valve there are two "o" rings right next to each other a greyish one and a black one
and I thought maybe it should open up between the two to regulate the fuel

but will clean cover and try easy start to see if she tries to run before going down the replacement of the valve

Oh forgot to say last time, reconnected the pressure sensor in the pipe from intercooler to EGR and don't get the zig=zag anymore :)

ok, this is what I have done today

connected CLIP, crank engine over, rail pressure starts off at a good reading , around the 300 mark
and then drops down and down and down eventually to almost nothing

I did try a couple of squirts of easy start, it does say on the can to spray whilst turning over
but I was on my own so gave a few squirts and then turned over, sadly no joy

because the manifold is now a bit gunky I have now removed this so I can clean it up again

will then put back together and see if any difference if some one squirts the easy start whilst its turned over
though Im not very hopeful that it will start with the easy start

If it wont start on easy start I'm a bit flummoxed, I have checked timing just in case it jumped when it revved
up high, but it all appears to be spot on still

Sorry Age, I'm out of my depth now. The only thing I can suggest, if you don't get any luck with it firing up again, is to check the compressions. There are cheap testers on ebay eg http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-COMPRESSION-TESTER-KIT-SET-DIESEL-ENGINES-20-PCS-/371285738704?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item56725ac4d0

I'll keep reading though, with my fingers crossed!! :-)

It must be pumping low pressure to the hp pump for you to get 300. Now either you have a big leak or the lp pump is not continuing to work when you are cranking. Or a flat battery
Spray a load of ES in then crank, to keep it running if need be spray in short bursts. If you have compression then as long as the exhaust is not blocked then it will go.

been away for a while  so not had chance to do anything to the car

popped up earlier was very windy and cold  where the car is :(


The rail pressure readings are now steady :)
still wont start :(

had to try easy start on my own as no one around to spray whilst turned over
if I spray some in the intake it will start and rev and then die again very quickly so does not run as such
but it does catch
I think if I could keep spraying easy start it would run
I will try again when someone is there to assist

the car does sort of try and start on its own, and will do little "chugs" when being turned over
(not sure how to describe) but wont catch and run

when I can get someone to help and it will run on the easy start then I guess could be very leaky injectors
or maybe they are blocked

Just good to hear you haven't given up on it. Keep the updates coming, I was beginning to get withdrawal symptoms!  ;D
Good luck!

Nice to hear the good news. Now you have some action try reconnecting the maf. Previously you said is was giving a high temp, this would give a lean mixture & not help with starting. I think your next message will be a good one :)

tried easy start whilst someone turn engine over
sort of runs, I did not have the knack of spraying at the right times !

then I tried without easy start and it fired up :)

however I have got the plume of smoke at the back
Its nothing from the turbo as pipe from turbo to intercooler is disconnected

I did think it maybe an injector stuck open, but the idle speed is fine and would have thought
if it was getting constant fuel it would rev higher.

I am almost certain its a problem with the replacement head I put on or that I damaged the gasket when
fitting the head (was a bit awkward and had to lean right in !)

don't really fancy stripping it down again at the moment, might do when its warmer

I do have a bottle of that "CarGo seal-up" , probably not worth it , but thought maybe I would try that
you have to drain & flush the coolant first as it reacts to coolant, but easier than stripping down
some people say its good stuff. I bought it ages ago but don't think it goes off

Great news, as for the smoke, before you do anything run it until hot & take it for a drive to see if it clears. Could just need a good clear out.

Cheers Brian

I only let it run for 5-10 mins so will let it run longer and see what happens
the system has been cleaned from intake box up to inlet manifold,  but probably crap
still in cat and exhaust

it does chuck out quite a bit of smoke, though Im not sure if its water or diesel causing it
If I give it any throttle it really chucks it out so not good to try on the road

it was doing this before it ran away last time, Im sure it ran away due to fluids in the intercooler
but am reluctant to connect up the turbo again and see if it runs away again, though if it did run away
then guess it cant be water problem and must be something to burn from somewhere

I did disconnect each injector cable in turn and that made no difference to the starting, running or the smoke
ie the engine did not sound like it only had three cylinders running


There was a little bit of pressure in the water expansion and a few air bubbles when I opened the cap
so this could be pointing to water problem, on the other hand the system has not been bled since
filing the coolant as it did not run before, so has not been bought up to temp to purge the system

I have a feeling that when I try to start it again it wont

well it still starts straight away, just a shame about the smoke

when first started I don't think there is as much smoke
but soon smokes more.

I let it idle until temp went up and rad got hot, don't think there was any reduction

I did upload a short vid so you can see the smoke
this was after I revved it a few times,

probably a bit more than you expected

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dvZrq3Imdig


If I disconnect one injector at a time, it still starts as normal and does not sound like running on three
maybe cos ive only heard petrol engines running on three and diesels still sound the same  ???

maybe I could sell for the new James Bond film

Well, I guess it depends how much effort you want to put in now.
Where did you get the head from? Is it a known good head?
You mentioned struggling with the head gasket??
I would do a compression test and take it from there.
Try a known good head, if you have any doubts.
Up to you though. Got to say, good effort so far, man after my own heart!  ;D

I watched the video, I still recon you need to drive it around the block at high revs. Maybe do it when it gets dark. I bought one similar a few days before going on holiday. I imagined it filling the entire deck of the cross channel ferry when I started it up. But I had put some additive in the oil & cleaner in the fuel which did the trick. Remember you lost a bucket load of fuel before, so do what you can to clear out the exhaust before anything else & a run in 3rd gear will go a long way in doing that. Otherwise drop the exhaust off the cat & see if its any better. If still bad then maybe it is the valve seals so try an anti-smoke oil treatment.

cheers guys

I guess I could remove the pipe from the head to EGR that takes a bit of the exhaust back to the inlet
and see if that smokes a lot from there, if its clear then must be in the exhaust still


I was told the head was good, but you know what scrap dealers are like

I will keep on with it :)

I assume the oil rings were not stuck in the replacement piston, not heavy breathing at the oil filler.

The rings were all free and I lined them up according to the engine PDF on the forum

not sure what you mean about the oil filler
but I did remove the filler cap when running and no smoke coming out of it

hi guys

not been on for a while, not been too well :(

car does not smoke as much
when first started there is very little (if any) smoke
but give it some throttle and it will smoke quite a bit still
then on idle you continue to see some smoke

am thinking about changing the valve stem seals
and wondering if its possible to do without head removal
as its an interference head I am hoping that if the piston is at top of stroke
then I can remove the collet and spring on that particular set of valves and
replace the seal as the piston should stop the valve dropping.

I guess if I try and it does not work then will have to take head off anyway
and then I might as well fit new rings to all the pistons as well

If you havn't already done so, then I would take it for a drive at high revs (3rd gear max) for a few miles after dark before doing any more. Make sure the whole system is clear. Your sure it's not the turbo seal?

Hi Brian

Ive disconnected the outlet pipe from the turbo, does not seem to be passing any oil
nice and windy though :)

Trouble I have taking it out on the road is no MOT now, ran out last month
sods law there would be a copper around if I tried
there is a yard I could try and drive it in , but would not be able to get much speed up

Ive had the car just idle twice for about 2hrs at a time
I did put some stuff in the oil that's meant to stop smoking, so don't know if that
is why not so much smoke now

will try and have another look at her tommorrow

Just a thought, sorry if it sounds like i'm teaching you to suck eggs! Just wondering if the rocker cover seal around the injectors is fitted ok. If not then you are going to get oil into the inlet. I have replaced them because they split I fill oil up around the injector. I have not had one that runs into the inlet, obviously this is what goes wrong & with the turbo connected it runs away. The seal/gasket fits into the rocker cover on pegs. Is it poss it got knocked off its pegs during reassembly, as there is not a lot of room when doing it in the car.

hi Guys

sorry not been on for a while

no updates to report as yet, as I just have not got round to looking at the car again
Ive put it on the back burner for now, but will look at it again sometime as I want to fix
even if just as a learning exercise.

Brian, I am as certain as I can be that the gaskets are all in place as I did remove the cover and re-do it
it seemed nice and tight on the pegs.

however, probably due to my illness (bi-polar) I have a tendency to buy things when I should not :( I have just got
hold of another 2.2dci espace, which also has a problem !

I will start a new thread on how this one goes as will prob look at this one first, another symptom of the illness is that
don't always finish something before moving on

The problem this one has is lack of power

any advise welcome on the new thread which I will do when I have put the clip on it

age