MatraSport Forum

Each model => Murena => Topic started by: roy4matra on June 15, 2016, 08:31:15 pm



Title: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller - Solved
Post by: roy4matra on June 15, 2016, 08:31:15 pm
Please read all of this and don't jump to conclusion.

I have a Murena 2.2 at the moment that simply refuses to cool when it is idling, yet it is fine if you are driving it around and therefore the airflow through the radiator is fine, and the revs are generally 2,000 rpm or above.  However, when it has to idle it, and engine temperature starts to rise, the fan switch doesn't cut in and it is because the coolant is not flowing to bring the heated coolant to the radiator!  If you bring the revs up to say 1,500 rpm then the coolant starts to circulate and the switch will cut in, but you should not have to rev any of these engines to get sufficient circulation.

Now this car has a rebuilt engine, new radiator, new water pump, new 83 degree thermostat, and new radiator low rated fan switch (87/82 degree) and these all have been checked and work, so I pulled the water pump off as it was obviously not circulating the coolant at idle.  In fact you could prove this lack of circulation by turning on the fan over-ride switch and the coolant and radiator would start to go cold yet the engine was still getting hotter!

When I got the pump off, it had an impeller I have not seen before and it is one of those alloy ones that I've heard about but never seen.  It has seven curved vanes but they are not the right shape so they can't fit closely to the casing.  The excess clearances between vanes and casing will result in a lack of pump efficiency.  All my water pumps have always been the cast metal straight blade ones, and I've never had problems with those.

So has anyone else had experience of a Murena 2.2 fitted with the water pump that has the aluminium curved vane impeller, rather than the normal flat vane cast iron one?  If you have, have you noticed a problem with cooling whilst idling for a long period such as in heavy traffic?  Thanks.

I am about to swap it for a pump with the normal straight vane cast impeller and see if it cures the problem.  I certainly hope so, as I have just about run out of ideas as to what is causing this.  In thirty three years with 2.2 Murena I have never come across this before. :(

Roy


Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: Jon Weywadt on June 16, 2016, 01:03:54 pm
I sympathise with you Roy. I too have had all kinds of problems with cooling in my 2.2, ever since I got it.
Mine overheated driving in a queue on the way home and blew out the rusted cooling pipes. For some reason the radiator fan switch did not cut in. I checked it when I changed to stainless pipes and it worked fine, so perhaps I too have had problems with the water pump.
My pump was replaced half a year ago, because the bearing and seal wore out after sitting with no water, while I had the head rebuilt. This new pump has just failed with water running out around the seal and loosing all coolant when pressure rises.
So today I am draining the water and getting ready for yet another pump. I have a new DOLZ pump from which we will use the shaft, bearing and seal.
Jesper is helping me rebuild the pump and we will first check the one that just failed to see whet caused it to fail. It too was a rebuild using a DOLZ pump for parts. We will make sure it has the cast iron impeller with straight vanes.
One option, that I know Anders Dinsen has (had) plans for, is an electric water pump, to be placed in the front compartment. I am also considering this as an option, in which case I would remove the impeller and, either remove the pulley and get a shorter fan-belt for just the alternator, or leave the pulley and just have no impeller.
For now Jesper and I will find out why the pump failed so quickly and hopefully the replacement will last.
Thank God I had not yet switched to Evans waterless coolant. That would have been expensive. :)



Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: Oetker on June 17, 2016, 08:09:03 am
Just a few weeks ago I had something simulair on my 1.6.
I know it's not a 2.2.
I also swapped anything and if I keeped revs 1200 rpm no problem.
I was suspecting waterpump to, and infact I had it ordered to place it before the meeting in Germanylast week.
At some point I decided to change the cap on the expantion bottle as a last solution. ( don't ask me why, I was willing to try anything).
Strange but true, it solved the problem.
Drove 500 miles in the meeting with several traficjams without a problem.
I don't know if it's the same with the 2,2 you are working on but why not try it.


Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: roy4matra on June 17, 2016, 10:13:50 am
Just a few weeks ago I had something simulair on my 1.6.
I know it's not a 2.2.
I also swapped anything and if I keeped revs 1200 rpm no problem.
I was suspecting waterpump to, and infact I had it ordered to place it before the meeting in Germanylast week.
At some point I decided to change the cap on the expantion bottle as a last solution. ( don't ask me why, I was willing to try anything).
Strange but true, it solved the problem.
Drove 500 miles in the meeting with several traficjams without a problem.
I don't know if it's the same with the 2,2 you are working on but why not try it.

That's a good point Herman, and one I will certainly check out, thanks.

I've now built a new pump with one of the overhaul kits and modified the metal impeller (just needs 5mm removing from the boss) so that it can be fitted with the ceramic seal, so it should be a better pump than the original. :)

I'll let you know the results once I have fitted it.

Roy


Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: roy4matra on June 17, 2016, 10:17:46 am
I sympathise with you Roy. I too have had all kinds of problems with cooling in my 2.2, ever since I got it.
Mine overheated driving in a queue on the way home and blew out the rusted cooling pipes. For some reason the radiator fan switch did not cut in. I checked it when I changed to stainless pipes and it worked fine, so perhaps I too have had problems with the water pump.
My pump was replaced half a year ago, because the bearing and seal wore out after sitting with no water, while I had the head rebuilt. This new pump has just failed with water running out around the seal and loosing all coolant when pressure rises.
So today I am draining the water and getting ready for yet another pump. I have a new DOLZ pump from which we will use the shaft, bearing and seal.
Jesper is helping me rebuild the pump and we will first check the one that just failed to see whet caused it to fail. It too was a rebuild using a DOLZ pump for parts. We will make sure it has the cast iron impeller with straight vanes.
One option, that I know Anders Dinsen has (had) plans for, is an electric water pump, to be placed in the front compartment. I am also considering this as an option, in which case I would remove the impeller and, either remove the pulley and get a shorter fan-belt for just the alternator, or leave the pulley and just have no impeller.
For now Jesper and I will find out why the pump failed so quickly and hopefully the replacement will last.
Thank God I had not yet switched to Evans waterless coolant. That would have been expensive. :)


It will be interesting to hear if your water pump has the alloy impeller with the curved vanes, Jon.

Murena 2.2 should not have a cooling problem if they are all correct as the original design, and this is the first one I've had with a problem - and also the first I've seen with a pump with the alloy impeller.  Seems too much of a coincidence to me.

I hope you get yours sorted soon.

Roy


Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: Jon Weywadt on June 17, 2016, 05:00:42 pm

It will be interesting to hear if your water pump has the alloy impeller with the curved vanes, Jon.

Murena 2.2 should not have a cooling problem if they are all correct as the original design, and this is the first one I've had with a problem - and also the first I've seen with a pump with the alloy impeller.  Seems too much of a coincidence to me.

I hope you get yours sorted soon.

Roy
I checked with Jesper and we mounted the original straight vane impeller on the pump that is in the car.
I have been checking closer regarding where the water is coming out and it appears that the axle seal is tight, but the hose on top of the pump is disintegrating and water is leaking out there. If true it will be a much easier job fixing the problem, as the pump won't have to come off. I have already managed to get the old hose off and it looks bad - swollen and spongy.
Now to find a replacement. Simons want 26 for one.  >:( It must be possible to find a universal hose with useable bends that will fit.


Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: GP on June 17, 2016, 07:57:01 pm

It will be interesting to hear if your water pump has the alloy impeller with the curved vanes, Jon.

Murena 2.2 should not have a cooling problem if they are all correct as the original design, and this is the first one I've had with a problem - and also the first I've seen with a pump with the alloy impeller.  Seems too much of a coincidence to me.

I hope you get yours sorted soon.

Roy
I checked with Jesper and we mounted the original straight vane impeller on the pump that is in the car.
I have been checking closer regarding where the water is coming out and it appears that the axle seal is tight, but the hose on top of the pump is disintegrating and water is leaking out there. If true it will be a much easier job fixing the problem, as the pump won't have to come off. I have already managed to get the old hose off and it looks bad - swollen and spongy.
Now to find a replacement. Simons want 26 for one.  >:( It must be possible to find a universal hose with useable bends that will fit.

Some hoses and reducers etc. here which may be of use?

http://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/hoses-and-clips

http://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/flexible-rubber-coolant-hose#/pageSize=20&viewMode=grid&orderBy=0


Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: Jon Weywadt on June 18, 2016, 01:39:44 pm
-- and new radiator low rated fan switch (87/82 degree) --
Roy
Hi Roy.

Where did you find your "low rated" fan switch? The ones I can see at Simons, CarJoy, etc. do not mention the temperatures.
Regards.
Jon


Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: Oetker on June 18, 2016, 06:54:19 pm
85/81

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CITROEN-C15-CX-VISA-DAEWOO-NEXIA-SKODA-FELICIA-FAVORIT-RADIATOR-FAN-SWITCH-/151520031960?fits=Model%3AVisa&hash=item23474c34d8:g:BI0AAOSwnDxUk1RI
If you look around you will find several.

Fiat Panda/regata citr Visa and many more as long as it is M22x1.5 tread it will do.
Mine has Fiat Panda in 87/82 and works fine

Herman


Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: Oetker on June 19, 2016, 05:52:00 pm
Looking at my pictures something catched my eye what may be of interest.
The pulley's have different diameters.
Tha alu impeller is the smallest.
Maybe that's the cause.

Herman

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Ci3GBubSdVQ/T2o0gC3oAfI/AAAAAAAABeo/zVXYlW0zX18/s800/P1010953.JPG)


Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: Jon Weywadt on June 19, 2016, 06:53:46 pm
Looking at my pictures something catched my eye what may be of interest.
The pulley's have different diameters.
Tha alu impeller is the smallest.
Maybe that's the cause.

Herman


Actually, the smaller the pulley diameter, the faster it spins and presumably the faster the coolant flows. So that should be an advantage to cooling.  ???


Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: Oetker on June 19, 2016, 06:58:45 pm
Yes, but is the right pulley on?
That's what I mean.


Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: roy4matra on June 21, 2016, 07:50:37 pm
-- and new radiator low rated fan switch (87/82 degree) --
Roy
Hi Roy.

Where did you find your "low rated" fan switch? The ones I can see at Simons, CarJoy, etc. do not mention the temperatures.

N.B. I sent an email reply to Jon earlier (as I could not log-in here for some reason) so he already knows the answer to this, but for others that read the forum I am adding it here anyway.

These switches are quite common and fitted to many older vehicles and there are also different switch settings for different applications.  I do not use Simon or Carjoy for things like this, and one of the sources in the U.K. is Car Builder Solutions (see www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/fan-switches ) for many common car items.

Roy


Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: roy4matra on June 21, 2016, 08:09:28 pm
Looking at my pictures something catched my eye what may be of interest.
The pulley's have different diameters.
Tha alu impeller is the smallest.
Maybe that's the cause.

Herman
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Ci3GBubSdVQ/T2o0gC3oAfI/AAAAAAAABeo/zVXYlW0zX18/s800/P1010953.JPG)

Thanks Herman, you have provided the missing piece to this puzzle.

The pump fitted to the engine with the problem had the standard size pulley but had the alloy curved vane impeller.  At engine idle the pump was not circulating the coolant so the engine would not cool, and the fan switch could not cut-in as the radiator was not getting the hot coolant.  Now if it had had this smaller pulley, the pump would have been spinning faster, and that would have been enough to get the coolant circulating.  We know this since, as I said in the original post, if we brought the engine revs up to 1,500 rpm it would start to circulate and the fan switch would finally cut-in.

So it appears that this pump with the different impeller should have had that smaller pulley.  Since it did not and neither does a second one I have in my stock, dated exactly the same and presumably from the same batch, this means there are possibly more of these incorrectly made pumps around, which won't cool at idle.  So please everyone beware, if you have a Murena 2.2 Dolz water pump (Part number T158) dated 12/96 and it has an alloy impeller with the No. 2B21302 cast into it, it needs a smaller pulley to drive it fast enough to cool the engine whilst standing idling.

The standard water pump pulley diameter is 120mm.  I would say this smaller pulley needs to be about 90-100mm.  Hopefully Herman will let us know the dimensions of that smaller pulley in the picture, when he has checked for us.

Thanks again Herman.

This smaller pulley also raises another point.  With the smaller pulley, I think the vee-belt will need to be shorter too.

Roy


Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: Oetker on June 22, 2016, 05:01:42 am
Goodmorning.

I can't measure anymore because the pump is sold but Simon provide pulleys for the waterpump, and they look the same as I have mounted.
This must be known with the dealers.
Why provide seperate pulleys?
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-LaN1_Om4TsE/V2n-FmhY6hI/AAAAAAAAHOA/-IZmmbC79j0VkR7aOdHQR9KBR_IiHRQdACCo/s1123/Simon%2Bwaterpump..jpg)

Not very cheap 58.-

I must have another pump somewhere laying around but don't know if it's a Dolz.



Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: roy4matra on June 22, 2016, 08:12:37 am
Goodmorning.

I can't measure anymore because the pump is sold but Simon provide pulleys for the waterpump, and they look the same as I have mounted.

No Herman the pulleys that Simon provide are the standard size (120mm dia.)  I know as I have bought at least one.

Quote
Why provide seperate pulleys?

This is easy to answer.  The original pulleys were cast iron, and since they are a tight press fit on the shaft, when you attempt to press them off again to overhaul a pump, they can break.  Again I know as this has happened to me - cast iron is not as strong as steel.  That is the first reason for new standard ones.  The second reason is that Dolz used to provide two pumps for the Chrysler/Talbot OHC engine as fitted to the Chrysler 160/180/2-litre and 2.2-litre engines.  The Chrysler 180/2-litre/Talbot Tagora pump was part number T118 and came without a pulley as they used a flange on the shaft that the electric clutch coupled fan bolted on to. (that was also the reason for the small threaded lug on the casting - that was where the carbon contact was bolted)  The Murena version of the pump was part number T158 and had the small lug cut off since we have the front electric fan; and a 120mm pulley was fitted which was much closer to the body of the pump as required in this transverse mounted version of the engine.

Near the end of the production of these pumps, Dolz stopped providing the pulley already fitted on the pumps - I have had some of these pumps; so Simon had some steel pulleys made for us to fit on these pumps.  The pump came in the box shrink-wrapped with no pulley, and the Simon pulley was separate in the box ready to be press fitted on.  This also meant you did not have to try to remove the old pulley which could break anyway, and therefore the new pump was complete and could be fitted without any problems. (no one would be happy if they bought a pump and then found they could not fit and use it because there was no pulley or the old one broke trying to transfer it!)  

(http://www.matraclub.org.uk/images/06037B.jpg)

Quote
Not very cheap 58.-

Maybe you don't like the price, but these are better quality than the cast iron ones and being machined from solid steel and will be more reliable especially if re-used a number of times on different pumps as they won't break when being pressed on and off the shafts.

Quote
I must have another pump somewhere laying around but don't know if it's a Dolz.

If you have one of the small pulleys you can measure, that would be good, but don't worry about it Herman because I have used your photos and the relative sizes to work out that the smaller pulley must be about 100mm which is what I calculated you would need to get the extra rpm required.  Thanks.


One further point about Dolz and these pumps.  Someone at Dolz made a mistake and they now have the 2.2 listed as having the same pump as the 1.6 version!  So you will see they list the T116 pump (which is still available) for both 1.6 and 2.2 versions.  This is obviously wrong and I have written several times to point this out but they won't acknowledge my letters or correct their website or catalogue.  They list the T118 and T158 as no longer available, so unless we can find another source of these pumps, all we can do is overhaul them.  So please NEVER throw old ones away.

Also if anyone has any old Murena 2.2 water pumps they don't want please let me know as I can always use the parts.  Thanks.

Roy


Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: Jon Weywadt on June 22, 2016, 04:32:32 pm
Jesper and I have been using the Dolz T116 pumps for parts to renovate the original T158 pumps. Taking them apart and only using the shaft, bearings and seals, Jesper has renovated the T158. He uses the original cast iron impeller but have to mill off a few millimetres to allow room for the new, different seals from the T116. Also the pulley end of the shaft has to be cut about a centimeter shorter.
Not a difficult project and while I thought that my rebuilt pump had failed, it looks like the problem was the old hose leaking around the top of the pump.
Still looking for a replacement. May end up using two 90 degree pieces and a fitting to join them. That is, if there is room for that. It was a tight squeeze getting the hose off, disassembling only the thermostat housing, in order to get a pair of polygraph pliers on the spring-loaded hose clip.
   


Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: roy4matra on June 24, 2016, 01:58:44 am
I'll let you know the results once I have fitted it.

Solved.  The car is now working correctly again, so it was the alloy curved vane impeller that was causing the problem.

The pump I took off the car had a standard size pulley but it had that inefficient alloy impeller and it was simply not circulating the coolant at engine idle speed.  Bring the engine revs up to about 1,500 rpm and it would start circulating and then the radiator fan switch would cut-in as the hot coolant was finally able to reach the radiator and switch, and then it could start to cool, but as soon as you let the engine drop back to a normal idle the circulation would stop, and the engine would over-heat if you left it too long.

If it had been fitted with that smaller pulley, the coolant pump would have been spinning fast enough at engine idle to start the circulation BUT the problem might then be at the top end, say with the engine reaching 6,000 rpm, because the pump would be at 8,280 rpm!  With a standard pulley and the engine at 6,000 rpm the pump would only be at 6,900 rpm.  At the very high revs it is possible you could start to get pump cavitation which would be bad.

I changed the alloy impeller for an original cast steel one with the flat vanes, and the pump now circulates the coolant at engine idle revs, and the cooling system is back to normal.

So if you have one of these pumps with the alloy curved vane impeller, but it has the standard 120 mm diameter pulley, then you will have problems, and the Murena will not cool whilst idling.  Any pump with the alloy impeller and a smaller 100 mm dia. pulley might be fine, at idle and low revs at least.  It might cause problems at high engine revs. as the pump may be over-speeding.

In my opinion these Murena 2.2 coolant pumps should only ever have the cast steel, flat vane impeller, like they did when the were first built; and you will have no trouble, as long as the rest of the cooling system is good of course. :)

Roy


Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: Oetker on June 24, 2016, 05:32:34 am
Good to know this.
I think there are more Murena's out there that suffer this problem.
Now finding this pulley is the new task or just a idea, cut a bit of the iron impeller (if possible) to make it fit with the other type seal.
This kind of faults can keep you busy.

Herman



Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: roy4matra on June 24, 2016, 10:41:22 am
Good to know this.
I think there are more Murena's out there that suffer this problem.

I think you are right Herman, and now I can understand why some people consider the Murena cooling is poor when I know, as I have had my car from new, that if they are as originally designed, they are perfectly fine.

Quote
Now finding this pulley is the new task...

Yes if the pump has an alloy impeller, it needs a 100 mmm diameter pulley and probably shorter vee-belt.

Quote
... or just a idea, cut a bit of the iron impeller (if possible) to make it fit with the other type seal.

I'm already ahead of you there!  I have had 5 mm machined off the hubs of several old flat blade cast impellers (as this is how much deeper the new seal assembly in Simon' overhaul kits measures) and I've rebuilt several old pumps with the new the ceramic seal assembly.  This is in fact what I did with this problem Murena as it already had the ceramic seal with the alloy impeller.  So it now has the ceramic seal but with the flat blade cast impeller. (but that impeller came from another pump which I cannot now overhaul unless I can get another cast impeller)

I have one Murena 2.2 pump with a flat blade impeller that has the numbers 2R12602 cast into it.  If anyone has any of these or can find out where they came from, this would be useful to know, so I could obtain some more.

I can in future offer overhauled Murena 2.2 water pumps (on exchange provided they have the cast impeller) that are better than the original ones (and much cheaper than new pumps too).

For those that don't understand why the ceramic seal is superior, the original pump had the impeller hub rubbing directly against the sprung carbon seal, and over time this would wear and if the engine was not used regularly, the impeller would corrode and fail to seal.  In the new ceramic seal assembly, the stationary sprung carbon seal rubs against the rotating ceramic seal, wear is reduced and there can be no corrosion or deterioration of the seal joint.  Also since the impeller hub no longer has to mate against the seal, it wont wear and any sight corrosion here will have no effect of the water pump sealing.

Consequently even in a classic car that is left unused for long periods, the pump should last better.  Many old classics are these days being fitted with modified pumps with ceramic seals.  Now we can have these on the Murena too!

Roy


Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: Oetker on July 03, 2016, 08:42:32 am

The impeller has seven curved vanes but they are not the right shape so they can't fit closely to the casing.  The excess clearances between vanes and casing will result in a lack of pump efficiency.  All my water pumps have always been the cast metal straight blade ones
So has anyone else had experience of a Murena 2.2 fitted with the water pump that has the aluminium curved vane impeller, rather than the normal flat vane cast iron one?  If you have, have you noticed a problem with cooling whilst idling for a long period such as in heavy traffic?  Thanks.
Roy

To make it more complex ::)
You say it has 7 curved vanes but this alloy impeller has 8 and are not curved..

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-kjNFdD5DoNU/T2o02-wq67I/AAAAAAAABf0/JpNMUx3yWkQ/s800/P1010963.JPG)

Regards Herman


Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: roy4matra on July 04, 2016, 09:33:45 am

The impeller has seven curved vanes but they are not the right shape so they can't fit closely to the casing.  The excess clearances between vanes and casing will result in a lack of pump efficiency.  All my water pumps have always been the cast metal straight blade ones
So has anyone else had experience of a Murena 2.2 fitted with the water pump that has the aluminium curved vane impeller, rather than the normal flat vane cast iron one?  If you have, have you noticed a problem with cooling whilst idling for a long period such as in heavy traffic?  Thanks.
Roy

To make it more complex ::)
You say it has 7 curved vanes but this alloy impeller has 8 and are not curved..

Regards Herman

Can you tell me the number cast in on the opposite side of that impeller, Herman.  Is it '2R12602' ?

The curved vane impeller I found fitted on two pumps including the one that wasn't circulating at idle, is '2B21302'.
(http://www.matraclub.org.uk/images/Curved vane.jpg)

I have since found another pump with an 8 straight vane impeller that may be the same as yours.

This is an original 6 straight vane impeller but with the hub machined down 5mm to allow it to be fitted with the new ceramic seal assembly.  And this works!  It circulates correctly at idle and keeps the engine temperature correct.
(http://www.matraclub.org.uk/images/Flat vane.jpg)

Roy


Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: Oetker on July 06, 2016, 09:05:13 am
Removed the paint from the allu impeller.
No number found.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-MhtFL_eRGpA/V3yqi72-5-I/AAAAAAAAHOY/IAkaYH1OpCE3SY_nN9j_-fJy8rtknZ6mgCCo/s800/P1080415%2B%2528Custom%2529.JPG)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-dEX7wbHErLo/V3yqi1mzdaI/AAAAAAAAHOc/Et5R4NK-jt0_QGzhtEh3FjX1VlhJIpCzQCCo/s800/P1080418%2B%2528Custom%2529.JPG)

I think docu is chaotic about this pump or not everone worked by the book.  :-X
Alu, steel, curved vanes, impellers with 6 or 8 vanes and so on.
In my experience (wich is hobby based) I saw some iron impellers come of the 2.2 with 6 vanes.
I think that is the original pump for Murena.
The turbo engine has steel with 8 vanes because of Turbo.

In the past we had the Chrysler 160/180 GT and 2 L with N9 engine.
I have the feeling the alu 6 curved vanes are meaned to be for that engine.
People do everything to save a buck so I presume the pumps from the N9 engine are used for Murena purpuses.
It's difficult to tell after so many years.
It's also possible that the cracked heads in this engine come from mounting wrong pumps but that is a gues from me.

Herman


Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: roy4matra on July 10, 2016, 05:29:33 pm
Removed the paint from the allu impeller.
No number found.

How odd.

Quote
I think docu is chaotic about this pump or not everone worked by the book.  :-X
Alu, steel, curved vanes, impellers with 6 or 8 vanes and so on.
In my experience (wich is hobby based) I saw some iron impellers come of the 2.2 with 6 vanes.
I think that is the original pump for Murena.

Yes I'm sure the 6 flat vaned steel impeller was the original for both Tagora and Murena 2.2, and in fact it was also used on the Chrysler 180/2-litre as I still have a new one of those in a box! (bought many years ago)

Quote
The turbo engine has steel with 8 vanes because of Turbo.

Well I can show you the 505 turbo parts list and it does not have a different Peugeot-Talbot number for the water pump so I'm not sure that the 8 vaned impeller was only for that.

Quote
In the past we had the Chrysler 160/180 GT and 2 L with N9 engine.
I have the feeling the alu 6 curved vanes are meaned to be for that engine.

No, not really as I have had many replacement pumps for those engines and used them on the Murena as they were all the same at that time - the casting was the same height on the original Chrysler 180/2-litre/Tagora which was why I used to buy them for the Murena.  All I had to do was swap the pulley from the old Murena pump as the Chrysler ones did not come with a pulley.  It was only late Tagora pumps where the casting was suddenly 5mm deeper and I can't figure out why when the early ones were fine.

Quote
It's also possible that the cracked heads in this engine come from mounting wrong pumps but that is a gues from me.
Herman

I would agree that is a possibility because if you mistakenly fitted one with the curved vane impeller and standard 120 mm diameter pulley, then in heavy traffic whilst idling, it could not cool the engine.

Here are photos of the two numbers cast into the two impellers I have recently found:
This is the 7 curved vane impeller that doesn't circulate at idle, on pumps dated December 1996.
(http://www.matraclub.org.uk/images/2B21302.jpg)

This is the 8 flat vaned impeller on a new Dolz T158 pump (still in box unused) dated January 2004.
(http://www.matraclub.org.uk/images/2R12602.jpg)

Roy


Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: Jon Weywadt on July 20, 2016, 10:47:07 pm
I moved this post to my "Serious challenges - the sequel" post  ::)


Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: Jon Weywadt on July 29, 2016, 05:51:22 pm
[quote author=Oetker link=topic=3091.msg23146#msg23146 date=1467528152
--
To make it more complex ::)
You say it has 7 curved vanes but this alloy impeller has 8 and are not curved..

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-kjNFdD5DoNU/T2o02-wq67I/AAAAAAAABf0/JpNMUx3yWkQ/s800/P1010963.JPG)

Regards Herman
[/quote]
My original pump, and the spare pump, both have 6 vane cast iron impellers.
I see a Dolz ceramic seal in the photo. Check out my post on http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php/topic,2983.0.html (http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php/topic,2983.0.html), for Jespers and my experience with this seal. :o


Title: Re: 2.2 water pump with alloy impeller
Post by: roy4matra on October 10, 2017, 01:15:32 pm
[quote author=Oetker link=topic=3091.msg23146#msg23146 date=1467528152
--
To make it more complex ::)
You say it has 7 curved vanes but this alloy impeller has 8 and are not curved..

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-kjNFdD5DoNU/T2o02-wq67I/AAAAAAAABf0/JpNMUx3yWkQ/s800/P1010963.JPG)

Regards Herman

I have seen the metal 8-vane impellers but not the alloy one, however, as they are flat they should be O.K. but to be pedantic, they both have gaps between the vanes and the hub which at low revolutions will allow fluid to pass between them and not get pushed around so reducing the pumping effect at idle or very low revs.  The original 6-vane impellers had the vane go across right to the hub as you can see from my earlier photograph.

What we do know for certain is that the curved 7-vane impeller is no good and any pump fitted with it should not be used. (One exception may be if the pulley is smaller to spin the pump faster, but then it may over-speed at top engine revs and I still don't advise this anyway.)

Roy