MatraSport Forum

Each model => Murena => Topic started by: Colin on July 29, 2017, 06:54:10 pm



Title: Gear linkage set up 2.2
Post by: Colin on July 29, 2017, 06:54:10 pm
I have read a lot on here about the various problems people have had with sloppy gear linkages. I have a few issues with mine, so far I have changed all the ball joints (with the kit from Matra Magic), the top hat washer and the nylon bushes on the fulcrum on the gearbox (with bronze ones from Simon). 
However I am still having difficulties with setting the linkage up properly. I can now get all the gears, but it is far from precise. when trying to select 5th I frequently get 3rd, and the same for reverse and 4th.  I can adjust it to make it more precise, but in doing so I lose 2 gears, either 1st and 2nd, or 5th and reverse.
I am wondering if there is any kind of datum I can find to work form, or if there is a standard length to set the 2 front rods to. The issue is with the left/right movement of the gear leaver, not the forwards/backwards.


Title: Re: Gear linkage set up 2.2
Post by: GP on July 30, 2017, 05:58:49 am
Q: What is the condition of the gear lever assembly? If this is worn out and loose you will not achieve the sideways deflections you are after.

Starting with the gear lever in the neutral central position so that deflections can be achieved equally. I have then just made logical adjustments to the linkage whilst lying under the car and having someone (patient) move the gear lever for me.

F.Y.I.

1st. quick shift modification picture with the top of the gearbox lever nipple moved forward will reduce the forward and back throw of the gear lever.

2nd. modification picture with the split nylon pipe clamp assembly over the main gear change tube improves the precision of the all the movements. (although technically not how the system is designed to work).

Good luck.



Title: Re: Gear linkage set up 2.2
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 30, 2017, 09:47:49 am
I prepared this little guide many years ago, but the system and the troubles it cause are still the same, it seems :)

http://dinsen.net/murena/gearshift/

My guess is that you have a worn bush at the end of the gear lever rod which gives you trouble pivoting the long rod under the car enough to engage fifth gear reliably.

(http://dinsen.net/murena/gearshift/murenalinkage.jpg)

Good luck!

/Anders


Title: Re: Gear linkage set up 2.2
Post by: Jon Weywadt on July 30, 2017, 12:17:21 pm
@GP
where did you get the nylon clamp assembly? Homemade?
I made a similar support but not as elegant :-[
One major problem on mine was that the "L" bracket on the gearbox (item E on Anders drawing) was 'frozen' so it pivoted by moving the bolt rather than pivoting on the bolt.
Fixing that, replacing the bronce bearing on the end of the gear shifter, and adding the support around the shifter pipe, solved most of the problem.
The support makes the shift a bit 'stiff' from side to side, so I have a plan to instal a universal joint in the shifter tube about 6" in front of the support.


Title: Re: Gear linkage set up 2.2
Post by: Colin on July 30, 2017, 06:26:00 pm
Thanks for the advice so far...

I have only ever driven this Murena, and a Peugeot 1.9 engined one I had last year, so I may be being too fussy, and expecting a very precise gear change.

further investigation has revealed that the gear lever has no slop in it at all, and has a metal ball on it, not a nylon one. A long ish run today had proved that it is ok as it is, but I think there is still room for improvement.
The play is very visible, when operating the linkage from underneath. The longitudinal rod moves a long way (around 2 inches at the top end of the gear lever) before it begins to move the front horizontal link (D on the above diagram), but there is no play anywhere else in the system.  When the car is put into 5th, the lever springs back to where you would expect to find 3rd.

Has anyone attempted to make a Ferrari-esque gated gear lever base? This may stop it springing around, as mine seems to do.

It is my understanding, from what I have read on here, that the lever needs to swing, rather than just rotate. How do you get on with the extra support bush? it seems to work against the geometry of everything else.

To summarise; the top hat washer in the end of B is new, as is the ball joint at the other end. D, F & K are all new, and there is no slop in the ball on the lever...


Title: Re: Gear linkage set up 2.2
Post by: GP on July 30, 2017, 06:53:55 pm
@GP
where did you get the nylon clamp assembly? Homemade?
I made a similar support but not as elegant :-[
One major problem on mine was that the "L" bracket on the gearbox (item E on Anders drawing) was 'frozen' so it pivoted by moving the bolt rather than pivoting on the bolt.
Fixing that, replacing the bronce bearing on the end of the gear shifter, and adding the support around the shifter pipe, solved most of the problem.
The support makes the shift a bit 'stiff' from side to side, so I have a plan to instal a universal joint in the shifter tube about 6" in front of the support.

Hello Jon,

The split nylon hydraulic pipe clamp assembly came from a ship yard in Norway and I drilled it to suit. I do have a spare one if you p.m. me your address I will post F.O.C.

The universal joint in the shifter tube is a good idea to try.

Cheers,

Graham




Title: Re: Gear linkage set up 2.2
Post by: Jon Weywadt on July 31, 2017, 12:26:26 pm

------

The universal joint in the shifter tube is a good idea to try.

Cheers,

Graham

I got mine, and a boot to match, at Car Builder Solutions here:
https://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/filterSearch?adv=true&cid=0&q=universal+joint&sid=true&isc=true#/pageSize=8&viewMode=grid&orderBy=0 (https://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/filterSearch?adv=true&cid=0&q=universal+joint&sid=true&isc=true#/pageSize=8&viewMode=grid&orderBy=0)

As with my zillion other ideas, this one has not been implemented yet.  :(

Jon.


Title: Re: Gear linkage set up 2.2
Post by: suffolkpete on July 31, 2017, 04:31:37 pm
Colin,
Is your gear lever the type where you have to press the lever down to select reverse.  If so, there is a metal detent at the base of the lever and this will prevent the lever moving far enough to select all the gears.  The cure is to remove it altogether and weld up the sliding section on the lever.  This detent is not fitted to later cars anyway.  The Ferrari arrangement is not the way to go as the restriction in movement will stop you selecting all the gears as the linkage wears, and it will wear.  If there is play in the nylon cup at the end of the lever it can be split apart and the faces filed to make it tighter.


Title: Re: Gear linkage set up 2.2
Post by: Colin on July 31, 2017, 04:50:20 pm
It is a 1983 car, so does not have that arrangement. I will take a video of what is happening, next time I jack it up.


Title: Re: Gear linkage set up 2.2
Post by: Oetker on July 31, 2017, 05:13:26 pm
Some points to look at.
The play on this point.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/bKoR-WJ-8NlmzlE-AGDAVQWmrMKIOY2Mr1-rdmNJ-IBWGMYqihkHPCkbHX4GXYxcVtFpbNDq8OrE5DwOJw=w800-h600-rw)
I made a bush in it.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/RebBjze1gaoMO6SVZhfaxpWyXa_IigfyxaAzfebyCoAczXYWxuHTJotNoFMi3Y7FdfPARz8IeKYmrouYmA=w1024-h768-rw)

The play on this point.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/zxzNM8Ebk0AauH31flUSG68cBFYTc17-qtPB8JQuuD-Sq-k2kUh5QBhGNcwtCSCEvhRvxxH41qTQJyBhuA=w800-h600-rw)

Shorter shift for/backwards like Graham.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/6Nntvn1f399bgVSZf7bcjExpvmAwGNQOFPUvB_wQSHLXLkcx8Unyr8C_V-R0WTW0l-gFnW_XVe2ddafJ-w=w800-h600-rw)


Also new bushes (Simon)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/OmOA9W4X7vQ9ACCa01DhoSb3tcuzZlnLglX4AaOknSr0TdF3r1DdbTQjosYiNoUSuINkkrBppwijecnu5Q=w800-h600-rw)


To keep the swing and make a shorter shift.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/TwPrFh1wMi9TYszENn2Cm6QPhMYW1KJKWCOD-hCOQf26YdAFCQhPnJhaAOg3OswBixdKPBL3lPJOPCrMxQ=w800-h600-rw)

Herman



Title: Re: Gear linkage set up 2.2
Post by: Jon Weywadt on July 31, 2017, 10:10:19 pm
Some points to look at.
The play on this point.

-

Herman


Hi Herman.

Sorry, but no photos show up, just question mark logos.  ???


Title: Re: Gear linkage set up 2.2
Post by: Oetker on July 31, 2017, 10:46:23 pm
I see no probem but I just resized the pics to standard resolutiion.
It should be visible.

Herman


Title: Re: Gear linkage set up 2.2
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 01, 2017, 08:39:12 pm
It is a 1983 car, so does not have that arrangement. I will take a video of what is happening, next time I jack it up.

Thanks for the advice so far...

I have only ever driven this Murena, and a Peugeot 1.9 engined one I had last year, so I may be being too fussy, and expecting a very precise gear change.

further investigation has revealed that the gear lever has no slop in it at all, and has a metal ball on it, not a nylon one. A long ish run today had proved that it is ok as it is, but I think there is still room for improvement.
The play is very visible, when operating the linkage from underneath. The longitudinal rod moves a long way (around 2 inches at the top end of the gear lever) before it begins to move the front horizontal link (D on the above diagram), but there is no play anywhere else in the system.  When the car is put into 5th, the lever springs back to where you would expect to find 3rd.

Has anyone attempted to make a Ferrari-esque gated gear lever base? This may stop it springing around, as mine seems to do.

It is my understanding, from what I have read on here, that the lever needs to swing, rather than just rotate. How do you get on with the extra support bush? it seems to work against the geometry of everything else.

To summarise; the top hat washer in the end of B is new, as is the ball joint at the other end. D, F & K are all new, and there is no slop in the ball on the lever...

It sounds like it's just the way it should be. I agree with you that the support bush would work against the geometries, I would not recommend it.

/Anders


Title: Re: Gear linkage set up 2.2
Post by: Matraman on December 12, 2019, 12:51:25 pm
I'm just in the process of removing the engine from my 2.2 and have undone the main gear linkage under the engine and the other one towards the front of the engine. I'm struggling to force the top one off at the rear of the engine by using the same screwdriver as for the others. Is there a better technique I should use to do this? I guess I can remove the whole support bracket instead, but that's extra bulk to get in the way when sliding the engine out I suspect.


Title: Re: Gear linkage set up 2.2
Post by: Oetker on December 12, 2019, 04:20:05 pm
If I understand the question right, you have trouble with this?
This one clicks of normaly with some force.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Bmkd0bcoreE/UDxaROeaujI/AAAAAAAABM0/HfJhTBPZ0cA/s640/scheurbak%2520%2528Custom%2529.jpg)
This one have a clip to keep it tight.
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-20YWHLnLRU4/T3WcNhV1uzI/AAAAAAAADiQ/pTy8uXojxm8/s800/P1000732.JPG)


Title: Re: Gear linkage set up 2.2
Post by: Anders Dinsen on December 12, 2019, 04:50:40 pm
I agree with Herman. Turn the links over and they'll pop off the heads. Use a wrench to turn them. Unless they have been changed by an earlier owner, the links don't have locking pins.

Good luck!

Anders


Title: Re: Gear linkage set up 2.2
Post by: matramurena on December 12, 2019, 08:35:45 pm
I also agree! Mine got off this summer after I went a little too fast over a speedbump... :)

However, on Hermans picture you can see a hole in the joint wich is normally used to put in the locking pin. So it could just be that you have a pin sitting in there that is holding it on it's place.


Title: Re: Gear linkage set up 2.2
Post by: Matraman on December 12, 2019, 11:05:28 pm
Thank you gentlemen, I hadnít thought about clips holding them together and couldnít see them from under the car. When I looked down from above I saw a clip on the joint I was stuck with. I pulled that off and the joint came apart (too) easily. I now have just about everything disconnected from the engine and am waiting for some dry weather to roll the car outside, Jack it up and see if I can get the engine out. Living near Manchester, it might take a while before I get a long enough dry spell!


Title: Re: Gear linkage set up 2.2
Post by: Oetker on December 12, 2019, 11:16:36 pm
You can make the short linkages yourself with this.
M8
This also fits the headlights ball-joint at the front.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ball-Head-Joint-Rod-End-Bearing-M5-M6-M8-M10-Right-Angle-CS8-CS10-CS13-CS16-TK-S/293180657507?var=592049237334

The bigger ball joint at the end I ordered at Simon but I think it is universal to.

Good luck with removing the engine.
It's a h heavy bastard.


Title: Re: Gear linkage set up 2.2
Post by: roy4matra on December 21, 2019, 12:34:08 am
Good luck with removing the engine.
It's a h heavy bastard.

I have always found the 2.2 to be easier to get in and out of the Murena because the 1.6 lays over at such a large angle that when it is released from the mountings it is unstable and wants to fall over!  If you use a crane from above it wants to swing upright.  Neither is what you need.

With the 2.2 it is much easier because the base of the sump is flat and the engine will sit happily on a trolley or the floor. So when removing the engine from a 2.2, you simply undo and remove everything except the two mounting cross bolts, lower the back of the car almost onto the floor, so the engine is sitting on your shallow trolley, remove the two cross bolts from the mountings and then lift the car back up and put it onto axle stands (under the chassis rails).  It has to be high enough for the engine to be slid out from under it.  The whole engine & transmission that is sitting on the trolley, is stable enough to be moved out from under the car.

Putting it back is simply the reverse.  Roll the powertrain back under the car, lower the car right down almost to the floor, then insert the cross bolts back through the mountings, and then lift the car complete with powertrain back up and put the axle stands back under to support it.  It doesn't need to be as high this time, just a normal working height to finish fitting everything else back.

Roy


Title: Re: Gear linkage set up 2.2
Post by: Matraman on January 06, 2020, 11:48:27 am
Herman, I've also found that the L shaped pivot is too stiff, but I'm struggling to get it off. There seems to be a circlip hiding at the bell housing end of it, which I can't get to. Any special tricks to release it? I notice in your photo a tiny screw driver, did you use that as part of the trick of removing it?


Title: Re: Gear linkage set up 2.2
Post by: roy4matra on January 06, 2020, 10:49:19 pm
Herman, I've also found that the L shaped pivot is too stiff, but I'm struggling to get it off. There seems to be a circlip hiding at the bell housing end of it, which I can't get to. Any special tricks to release it? I notice in your photo a tiny screw driver, did you use that as part of the trick of removing it?

The 'L' shaped arm becoming stiff on its pin is quite common, and prevents the correct side to side movement on the gear lever.

There is a small external circlip on top of a metal washer near the top of the pin stopping the arm from coming off.  A small circlip pliers shoud be all that is needed to open it up so it can be slid off.  Once off, you need to remove both rods attached to the arm, then work the arm back and forth whilst pulling it upwards to get the arm off the pin.  Remove the two 'top hat' nylon bushes, clean everything, grease it all with LM grease and refit.  Usually the nylon bushes are reusable, but if you do need new ones bronze bushes are available.

The side to side movement of the gear lever should now work freely, allowing you to get all three planes - 1st/2nd, 3rd/4th, and 5th/Rev.

Roy


Title: Re: Gear linkage set up 2.2
Post by: Matraman on January 06, 2020, 11:52:15 pm
I've looked at the photo more closely and it's clear I don't have a standard L shaped piece on there, mine has a welded top on it where the circlip should go and I suspect someone has managed to get a circlip round the bottom end, near the bell housing, which is very difficult to get at. As it's not standard I will definitely have to get it off somehow and probably find a replacement. I hope the shaft is OK. Can that be replaced?


Title: Re: Gear linkage set up 2.2
Post by: roy4matra on January 07, 2020, 04:01:38 am
I've looked at the photo more closely and it's clear I don't have a standard L shaped piece on there, mine has a welded top on it where the circlip should go and I suspect someone has managed to get a circlip round the bottom end, near the bell housing, which is very difficult to get at. As it's not standard I will definitely have to get it off somehow and probably find a replacement. I hope the shaft is OK. Can that be replaced?

I'm not sure I understand this as I don't see any photo that you have referred to, and why would you need a circlip at the bottom?  The 'L' bracket can only come off the top!  However, the pin is screwed into the bell housing casing, or should be, so if you can grip the top end sufficiently you might be able to unscrew the pin out of the bell housing to remove it and the 'L' bracket.  In fact the top of the pin has a slot in it which would have allowed it to be screwed in originally using a flat blade screwdriver   It will have been fitted with threadloc though, so it will be tight.  You can use the slot to try to undo it, but you don't want to to snap the top, so if it doesn't want to undo easily, be careful.  Use a little heat around the casing where it is screwed in.

Please email me a photo of your arm and pin first though, so I can try to see what has been done.

Roy


Title: Re: Gear linkage set up 2.2
Post by: Matraman on March 15, 2020, 02:18:43 pm
In the end I bent the arms of the fulcrum slightly upwards, then I could unscrew the whole fulcrum shaft and tackle it on the bench. There was no circlip at the top of the shaft, just one at the bottom, to keep the fulcrum clear of the bell housing I assume. The fulcrum was held on at the top by corrosion welding itself to the nylon bushes. To change gear the whole shaft had to rotate on its thread.

No amount of pushing or pulling or gentle heat would allow the shaft to come out, so i just had to heat it until the nylon bushes melted. There was no circlip groove left at the top of the shaft, so I cut a new one and found a circlip to fit. It now has new bronze bushes and is a nice fit on the rescued shaft.