MatraSport Forum

Each model => Espace => Topic started by: TheJoker on November 28, 2006, 08:56:34 pm



Title: Bottom-end Bye Bye
Post by: TheJoker on November 28, 2006, 08:56:34 pm
 :'(

After my ordeal with the return pipe and the "noise" (see http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php?topic=317.0) I took the car to a Renault dealer, and paid 90 for the privilege of knowing that my bottom end is broken and that my turbo is leaking oil.... 6739.... estimate...

Obviously I'm not going to pay that...

Refurbished/remanufactured engines... eBay (saw one for 2000)... tips..?

--- having a beer now...



Title: Re: Bottom-end Bye Bye
Post by: Martin Tyas on November 28, 2006, 11:05:22 pm

--- having a beer now...


If I'd had that news I'd have by-passed the beer, gone straight for a full bottle of single malt, thrown away the cap and been in for the night.

If you take a chance on a used engine from e-bay or a salvage yard you are unlikely to know exactly what you are getting and won't do until you've gone to the hassle and expense of removing the existing engine, refitting the one you buy and firing it up.

Did they enlighten you as to what they meant by "bottom end"?.... big ends? (in which case to refurb that engine it would need to come out and have a crank grind as well as new shells).... but also in the botton end is the oil pump and the crankshaft counterbalance weight and drive gear both of which could possibly be removed/replaced by dropping the sump with the engine in situ rather than taking out the whole engine and transmission assembly.
Before commiting to either a second hand or refurbished engine or to taking the existing engine out it might be worth dropping the sump as you could remove one or two of the big end shells and main bearing caps just to see what you were in to or whether the problem was with the counterbalance weight and drive.
Unfortunately removing the engine from an Espace is not a DIY job unless you have a garage equipped with a 2 or 4 post hoist because you can't lift the engine out of the car you have to lift the car in to the air and leave the engine behind.... as you can gather there is a lot of labour time involved in getting the engine out and back into the car but once out engines can usually be fairly cost effectively refurbished at a specialist engine re-builders.... unless it's been totally abused and not serviced by the previous owner. You are probably better off trying to find a smaller but well equipped independant garage... preferably the sort where the man you talk to and pay is the man who does the work.  And once the engine is out at least you get chance to decide whether to spend a bit more and replace such as the clutch and drive shaft boots all at the same time.

And you don't have to buy a complete new turbo from Renault as it is likely to be a Garrett that can be re-furbished by the likes of Tait Turbos in Oldham... or they can usually supply a brand new complete unit at about half the price of a main dealer.

Just don't make any decisions until you've sobered up ;)

Martin


Title: Re: Bottom-end Bye Bye
Post by: TheJoker on November 29, 2006, 01:05:44 pm
Thanks for that Martin. I'm going to look into all options. Sadly this is the sort of car that you really need a proper garage for to work with. Like you say; you can't just move the engine out of it like you can in an old Volvo or Ford.

Hopefully l'll know soon what the garage would charge for a refurbished engine....

... Ideal situation would of course be to find that "old geezer" who's been working with Diesel engines his whole life and knows everything there is to know... :)

Oh, and they didn't say exactly what's gone; obviously they'd have to remove the sump to do that...


Title: Re: Bottom-end Bye Bye
Post by: tka on November 29, 2006, 11:40:07 pm
Hi Joker

Found this on the I-net one day (might be common knowledge in this forum):

www.renault-spare-parts.com

I don't know anything about the place what-so-ever, but seems like maybe a way to go.

BR
/tka


Title: Re: Bottom-end Bye Bye
Post by: TheJoker on November 30, 2006, 08:58:45 am
Thanks TKA! I'll check that out once the bandwidth limit has been removed.... Right now the page is unavailable due to the owner exceeding the bandwidth limit. :)


Title: Re: Bottom-end Bye Bye
Post by: TheJoker on December 14, 2006, 05:21:20 pm
Thought I'd post a slight update on what's been going on.

So far, this is the story.
-A- said there are cogs in the engine that rattle - you guys here say those cogs don't exist: Solution replace engine, cost 3200
-B- is an official Renault garage, charged me 80 to tell me the car will need 6700 worth of new engine and Turbo, due to that the bottom end has gone, and that the Turbo is leaking oil.
-C- which runs his own garage gave it a quick listen and then that "exhale-roll-your-eyes"-maneuvre and said the bottom end has gone. He laughed at Heathrow Engines who'd fit a refurbd' engine for 1999+VAT.
-D- is an older gentleman who's known in these parts for fixing cars. He ran to fetch an umbrella and started poking the umbrella against the engine and then sticking his ear to the umbrella to listen for noises. He pinpointed the noise to the top right (as viewed into the engine bay, on the battery side). He insisted on that the noise comes from the top and the bottom is just fine. He also stepped on the throttle and kept it pinned for a good 15-30s - result wasn't even black smoke, just kept running like a (rattling) clockwork.
-E- is a colleague of my girlfriend. He rebuilds/builds engines professionally and he's just had a poke around and he says that the engine is basically sound, but agrees that there's something wrong with it.

So.. we kinda have come to the conclusion that the engine is basically fine. We still need to locate the problem and obviously fix it.

Don't believe those rip-off-ar*es!!!!  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(


Title: Re: Bottom-end Bye Bye
Post by: Martin Tyas on December 15, 2006, 01:01:51 pm
Could I suggest one relatively cheap and easy way of determining the condition of the engine.... and that is to have an oil sample analysis.

The construction equipment industry uses oil sampling extensively on engines and drive trains (gearboxes, transmissions, transaxles etc) on machines that are on longer term contract hire or covered by repair and maintenance agreements. Regular oil sampling is used to help determine when an engine or transmission is due for an overhaul and therefore allows machine downtime to be scheduled in advance. This also obviously avoids major failures which are more expensive to repair and result in both unscheduled and more prolonged downtime.

The oil samples provide a detailed analysis which tells it's own story as to the condition of just about every aspect of an engine or transmission.
For example
- wear metals (such as bronze indicating wear from main bearing and big end shells)
- particle quantifier (for ferrous particles which gives an indication of general wear)
- the levels of Soot, Oxidation, Sulphation and Nitration to determine the condition of the oil
- tests for water, antifreeze (for such as head gasket problems) and dillution with fuel (fuel pump shaft seals problems)
- magnetic test to provide visual indication of ferrous contamination (and if there are larger particles it can often be determined which part of the engine they are from)
- oil viscosity test

The results are usually translated in plain and simple terms so you don't have to go get an engineering degree to find out what it means.
Companies getting regular sampling carried out usually pay between 10 and 15 per test so even as a one-off I wouldn't imagine that it would cost more than about 25 and the results are usually available on-line within a few days.... obviously it would cost more if you had someone drain off a sample for you rather than doing it yourself.

One good source of information is from the Finnings web site......  http://www.finning-sos.co.uk/
Finnings are the Caterpillar distributors in the UK and so are obviously used to testing oil from diesel engines.... but there are plenty of others who can also provide this service and most supply a sampling kit for you to use and post off to the lab.

Of course it is always better to have a sample of oil that has been in the vehicle for a reasonable period of time so if the oil in your engine has been changed fairly recently then I'd do a few more miles in order to get a sample that will yield meaningful results.

Martin


Title: Re: Bottom-end Bye Bye
Post by: TheJoker on December 15, 2006, 01:15:09 pm
Martin,

Thanks for that. I had completely forgotten about analysing the oil. I'll look into this, my girlfriend works for an engine manufacturer, so I'll she if she's got any industry insight too.

Unfortunately I asked for the oil to be changed when these problems started; I reckon that if an engine is on its way out, anything to help it survive will be a "Good Thing(tm)".

Thanks for your input!  8)


Title: Re: Bottom-end Bye Bye
Post by: TheJoker on December 17, 2006, 08:38:36 pm
Progress... Well, at least some. :)
My girlfriends colleague seems quite keen on finding out what's wrong with the car. He's agreed (almost 'offered') to have a look at it, and also change the cam-belt (again) and the water-pump. If you're there looking at things, he might as well do it.
He seems like a guy who really knows what he's doing (his job is to build diesel engines!), and he seems to be doing these kind of things quite frequently. He wasn't at all phased by ordeal of changing the belt on this engine/car (needle hole operation through the wheel well ;) ). To me that says quite a lot.  8)
Anyway, he'll start poking at it tomorrow, and I'll know what's wrong before he'll fix it. Let's just hope it's nothing major and that it doesn't take him too long.... :)

Fingers crossed. :)


Title: Re: Bottom-end Bye Bye
Post by: Lennart Sorth on December 19, 2006, 12:04:00 am
Sounds like your car is in very good hands - I'll cross my fingers for a speedy (and not too costly) recovery !

/Lennart


Title: Re: Bottom-end Bye Bye
Post by: TheJoker on December 19, 2006, 10:17:38 am
Thanks Lennart - turns out that the cam belt (alledgedly replaced at 72K now at 85K) is very loose - about 1 - 1.5 inch slack on each side. He said that it's a miracle that the engine hasn't blown... new cam-belt and new water pump is going on...  8)


Title: Re: Bottom-end Bye Bye
Post by: TheJoker on December 28, 2006, 03:54:15 pm
Still being worked on... got a phone call today saying that he can't get it fixed without dropping the engine out... ouch! I was hoping we could avoid that.... anyhoo - he's doing a great job....

and I've got new brake disks/pads too.


Title: Re: Bottom-end Bye Bye
Post by: TheJoker on December 30, 2006, 04:16:35 pm
The engine is out, and I've been there to have a look at it. There's a few pictures on my home machine, here:
http://madhouse.selincite.com/js/renault_grand_espace_broken_engine/
As you can see the "experts" verdict of the "broken bottom end" is not exactly accurate.  >:(

All the problem is, is a broken dowel that's caused the cam tensioner to flap and rattle about... 7,639 --- MY ARSE!!! (pardon my "french"!!)


Title: Re: Bottom-end Bye Bye
Post by: Anders Dinsen on December 30, 2006, 05:42:58 pm
Very interesting pictures, indeed!


Title: Re: Bottom-end Bye Bye
Post by: TheJoker on January 16, 2007, 08:49:57 am
Well, the engine is back, and the car is running. I'm still in the process of regaining confidence in the car, so I won't post any happy feelings just yet. Needless to say the engine is now muuuuch muuuch quieter.

I've also got new brake disks and pads on at the front, along with a drive shaft boot....  8)


Title: Re: Bottom-end Bye Bye
Post by: beemerjay on January 20, 2007, 10:14:15 am
Glad to hear your car is back on the road

Now as far as I'm aware Matra built the espace prior to the Espace III? I wait to be corrected on that, but basically they built them whilst they were fitted with a longitudinal engine??

It just goes to show that as soon as the mainstream car manufacturer got their hands on it it became soooooooooo complicated

Previous "Matra" models were also, what has to be classified as very "Robust" engine and gearbox and wiring wise if maintained at all?


Title: Re: Bottom-end Bye Bye
Post by: Anders Dinsen on January 20, 2007, 05:56:22 pm
Glad to hear your car is back on the road

Now as far as I'm aware Matra built the Espace prior to the Espace III? I wait to be corrected on that, but basically they built them whilst they were fitted with a longitudinal engine??

I need to correct you as Matra built the Espace III too (from 1997 to 2002) which can be identified by the warm galvanized chassis and glass fiber panels.

Phase III was a major upgrade to the series and a complete redesign of the driveline, suspension and electrical systems, which in the previous two models shared most characteristics.

Renault probably contributed with much of that, and Matra mostly with design (interior and exterior). But the handling is truly Matra in all respects of Phase III, with a low center of gravity and the trailing arm rear suspension which is identical (except for dimensions) to the original design from Phase I!

Quote
It just goes to show that as soon as the mainstream car manufacturer got their hands on it it became soooooooooo complicated

Phase III was thought to be very advanced in design as well as technology. Matra's tradition for innovation probably drove a good deal that development.

Quote
Previous "Matra" models were also, what has to be classified as very "Robust" engine and gearbox and wiring wise if maintained at all?

Well, wiring isn't exactly robust in any Espace's, but then again not worse than many other cars. Engine wise, yes they are very robust in the previous generations.

- Anders