MatraSport Forum

Each model => Murena => Topic started by: matra530 on October 08, 2018, 01:48:08 pm



Title: Changing valve stem seal
Post by: matra530 on October 08, 2018, 01:48:08 pm
Hello,

Im new to your forum. My Name is Andreas and Im driving a Murena 2.2 since 2000. When I bought the car, there was much to do.  Now I had a long time many fun with my car, but now it needs a little bit more attention. When the engine is warm and I have to stop for a while I blast a grey cloud out of the exhoust.
I think, that the valve steam seals are to hart after 18 years an I have to change them again.
But now I would like to it without removing the engine again. Did somone of you managed to do that?. Ive checkt a few tools for this work, but they did not fixed with the head from the 2,2 or they needed more space.
It would be greate if someone from you will have a good idea for me.
Please excuse my terrible english. Last english lesson ist 30 years ago.

Matra530


Title: Re: Changing valve stem seal
Post by: roy4matra on October 08, 2018, 11:27:25 pm
Hello,

Im new to your forum. My Name is Andreas and Im driving a Murena 2.2 since 2000. When I bought the car, there was much to do.  Now I had a long time many fun with my car, but now it needs a little bit more attention. When the engine is warm and I have to stop for a while I blast a grey cloud out of the exhoust.
I think, that the valve steam seals are to hart after 18 years an I have to change them again.
But now I would like to it without removing the engine again. Did somone of you managed to do that?. Ive checkt a few tools for this work, but they did not fixed with the head from the 2,2 or they needed more space.
It would be greate if someone from you will have a good idea for me.
Please excuse my terrible english. Last english lesson ist 30 years ago.

Matra530

Yes we've changed the inlet valve seals recently with the cylinder head still fitted, using a Snap-on tool I've had for many years.  It's a CG90 I've used many times.  We couldn't get at the exhaust valve seals as easily so didn't try to change them since it's less likely they will be causing the oil ingress.

Consider when the exhaust valves are open the exhaust gasses are pushing out and would more likely push the oil back, but when the inlet valves are open the air/fuel mixture is being drawn in and oil can be drawn in past poor valve stem seals too.

Once we had changed the inlet valve seals (and found one broken up) the engine ran fine with no more oil leaking in and causing smoke out of the exhaust.

Make sure you have good new valve seals before you start the job.  See my website for both a warning and information.

Roy


Title: Re: Changing valve stem seal
Post by: matra530 on October 09, 2018, 09:04:22 am
Hello Roy,

thanks for answering. Ive tried to work with some similar tools. But they were a litte bit to big. I will looking for your tool. Do you still own the tool? would it possible to you to send me the dimensions from it?

Ive got inlet valve seals from the Peugot Turbo. Part Number 0956.14. Looking much more better then the valve seals, Ive bought last time.

The work will be terrible, but it is important. I dont like the car driving with this cloud behind me.

Matra530


Title: Re: Changing valve stem seal
Post by: Jon Weywadt on October 10, 2018, 04:16:23 pm
--
Yes we've changed the inlet valve seals recently with the cylinder head still fitted
---
Roy
Hello Roy.
Can that be done the same way on a Lurena 2.2?


Title: Re: Changing valve stem seal
Post by: matra530 on October 10, 2018, 04:37:50 pm
Didnt we talk about the 2.2?


Title: Re: Changing valve stem seal
Post by: Jon Weywadt on October 11, 2018, 03:41:25 pm
Didnt we talk about the 2.2?
I think I got confused by your  matra530 name.  :D


Title: Re: Changing valve stem seal
Post by: matra530 on October 11, 2018, 08:11:54 pm
Sorry,

that is right. This is a project without time... Enough to do with one car.  ;D


Title: Re: Changing valve stem seal
Post by: roy4matra on October 13, 2018, 02:48:06 pm
--
Yes we've changed the inlet valve seals recently with the cylinder head still fitted
---
Roy
Hello Roy.
Can that be done the same way on a Lurena 2.2?

I presume you meant Murena 2.2 jon.  ;)  Yes with this tool you could probably do many engines, although I've only done a few.  If you haven't seen the tool, it is worth checking it out although I'm not sure it's still available now.

Roy


Title: Re: Changing valve stem seal
Post by: Jon Weywadt on October 13, 2018, 05:48:10 pm
--
Yes we've changed the inlet valve seals recently with the cylinder head still fitted
---
Roy
Hello Roy.
Can that be done the same way on a Lurena 2.2?

I presume you meant Murena 2.2 jon.  ;) 
---
Roy
Ah auto-correct bites again.  :D

Anyway, I wish I was still able to do the work needed. :(


Title: Re: Changing valve stem seal
Post by: matra530 on October 26, 2018, 07:27:07 am
--
Yes we've changed the inlet valve seals recently with the cylinder head still fitted
---
Roy
Hello Roy.
Can that be done the same way on a Lurena 2.2?

I presume you meant Murena 2.2 jon.  ;)  Yes with this tool you could probably do many engines, although I've only done a few.  If you haven't seen the tool, it is worth checking it out although I'm not sure it's still available now.

Roy

Hello Roy,

I will try to order the tool in GB. There it is still on stock.
In Germany you can only buy this tool in used conditions for the price higher than the new one...


Title: Re: Changing valve stem seal
Post by: roy4matra on October 29, 2018, 10:47:53 am
Hello Roy,

I will try to order the tool in GB. There it is still on stock.
In Germany you can only buy this tool in used conditions for the price higher than the new one...

Even in the U.K. this is no longer available, even if a website proclaims it is! (I checked with Snap-on last week)  So again it would have to be second hand... and there is probably a better option now anyway.

There are some new tools now on the market for removing the valve spring collets, retainer and springs, to get at the seals and should do the job in situ.  Beware though, the Murena valve stems are almost 9mm diameter and there are two sizes of this tool.  The more common one is only for 4.5 to 7.5 mm dia. valve stems and is therefore too small.  Lisle list one that does 5/16" to 3/8" dia. stems and would therefore be fine for the Murena.

Roy


Title: Re: Changing valve stem seal
Post by: MatraIan on November 22, 2018, 11:46:34 am
I had tried to order one of the CG90 snap-on tools in the UK but the website i found was no longer trading.
The newer Lisle 36200 looks like it will be a lot less fiddly, There is a used CG90 on US ebay, another newer snap on version and also some cheap foreign copies, see below links:
This CG90 from the US:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/Vintage-Snap-on-Tools-Valve-Spring-Compressor-CG90/1224921558?iid=292799539639&_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160927153312%26meid%3D288411ca2cef430589672449a014b948%26pid%3D100013%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D292799539639%26itm%3D292799539639&_trksid=p2047675.c100013.m1986

Newer Snap on VST100 version looks like it may do the job also from US:
https://store.snapon.com/Valve-Spring-Compressors-Compressor-Valve-Spring-Cam-Operated-Blue-Point--P641321.aspx

The cheaper and poorer made one (probably not ok for a mechanics heavy usage but may ok for occassional DIY) that I ordered and at the price i can just but another if it fails:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Universal-Engine-Overhead-Valve-Spring-Compressor-Tools-Removal-Installation/173406948558?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

Ian


Title: Re: Changing valve stem seal
Post by: matra530 on January 22, 2019, 09:14:01 pm
The Lisle 3650 looks very easy. Ive found a youtube vid and I cant believe that they presse the ventilate without tools. Only pushed them down. I will try to compress al ventilate in the garage in the next days.

Thanks for your support.


Title: Re: Changing valve stem seal
Post by: Jon Weywadt on January 30, 2019, 05:58:11 pm
-----
 Ive found a youtube vid
------
Could you post a link to the youtube video, please.  :)


Title: Re: Changing valve stem seal
Post by: Ren Holm on February 02, 2019, 06:58:31 pm
Hey Jon.

I think its here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIwmf0nhljU


Title: Re: Changing valve stem seal
Post by: matra530 on February 08, 2019, 08:25:16 am
Thats right ;D.
A pregnant wife to show that it is easy. Great idea.


Title: Re: Changing valve stem seal
Post by: Jon Weywadt on March 25, 2019, 02:13:56 pm
Hey Jon.

I think its here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIwmf0nhljU
Watched it and it looks pretty easy.

However, what about replacing the stem seals? Once you remove the valve spring how do you pull out the old seal and replace it with a new one?

I have two types of seals.
One has a metal ring want a rubber collar surrounded by a spring.
The other is a rubber tube with a metal ring choking one end slightly and a nylon ring inserted tin the other.
I think this last type is one I got from Simons when I ordered the head gasket. Where I got the others I do not know.

The metal ones are 15,7 mm outside diameter and the hole in the rubber is 7,5 mm.
Thee rubber ones are 15,5 mm at the metal ring increasing to 16,2 mm at the end with the nylon ring. The hole in the nylon ring is 7,5 mm

Are these the correct seals and which one would work better?

Also, when doing the job with the head still mounted, do you just push the lifters to the side and does that give enough room to use the tool that Roy posted above?


Title: Re: Changing valve stem seal
Post by: roy4matra on March 25, 2019, 09:56:58 pm
Hey Jon.

I think its here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIwmf0nhljU
Watched it and it looks pretty easy.

However, what about replacing the stem seals? Once you remove the valve spring how do you pull out the old seal and replace it with a new one?

I have two types of seals.
One has a metal ring want a rubber collar surrounded by a spring.
The other is a rubber tube with a metal ring choking one end slightly and a nylon ring inserted tin the other.
I think this last type is one I got from Simons when I ordered the head gasket. Where I got the others I do not know.

The metal ones are 15,7 mm outside diameter and the hole in the rubber is 7,5 mm.
Thee rubber ones are 15,5 mm at the metal ring increasing to 16,2 mm at the end with the nylon ring. The hole in the nylon ring is 7,5 mm

Are these the correct seals and which one would work better?

Also, when doing the job with the head still mounted, do you just push the lifters to the side and does that give enough room to use the tool that Roy posted above?

DO NOT on any account use those valve seals with the white centre sleeve in them!  There has been a warning on my website for months now.  (You should take note of things like this)  These seals are known to fail within months, and are poor quality.

The correct valve seals for the 2.2 engine are Elring 702.951 which you can obtain either from Carjoy or other motor factors. (or possibly direct).  They are usually green 'rubber' with the tiny spring around the lip seal to give the sealing tension.  Dimensions are for a 9mm valve shaft, the outer diameter of the metal part is 17mm and the inner seat diameter is 14.3mm where it fits on the top of the valve guide.

Be careful when fitting new seals over old valves that the edges of where the collets fit are not sharp, which could damage the new seals.  Strictly, you should have a thin sleeve which is fitted over the end of the valve, over which the seals slides down and are protected from the collet ridges.

Strictly the way to remove and refit valve seals is with special tools, but you can usually remove them easily enough, since there is no worry over damaging them as you will be replacing them.  To fit the new ones I often use a socket of the correct size to tap them gently down onto the guides.

Roy


Title: Re: Changing valve stem seal
Post by: Jon Weywadt on March 27, 2019, 05:25:08 pm

DO NOT on any account use those valve seals with the white centre sleeve in them!  There has been a warning on my website for months now.  (You should take note of things like this)  These seals are known to fail within months, and are poor quality.

The correct valve seals for the 2.2 engine are Elring 702.951 which you can obtain either from Carjoy or other motor factors. (or possibly direct).  They are usually green 'rubber' with the tiny spring around the lip seal to give the sealing tension.  Dimensions are for a 9mm valve shaft, the outer diameter of the metal part is 17mm and the inner seat diameter is 14.3mm.

Strictly the way to remove and refit valve seals is with special tools, but you can usually remove them easily enough, since there is no worry over damaging them as you will be replacing them.  To fit the new ones I often use a socket of the correct size to tap them gently down onto the guides.

Roy

I was very suspicious of the seals with the white ring. It is nylon and would melt, or wear quickly,as you write.
I have found the Elring ones at a decent price. Also the Lisle tool on Amazon.com at $30.
But the other tools in the photo would be handy. In the youtube video they place a rag under the head to hold the valve up in order to replace the spring retainer. Since that is not possible in situ, putting it under pressure with compressed air using the hose seems to be the way to go. Or are there an easier way?

Regards. Jon


Title: Re: Changing valve stem seal
Post by: roy4matra on March 28, 2019, 01:27:50 pm

I was very suspicious of the seals with the white ring. It is nylon and would melt, or wear quickly,as you write.
I have found the Elring ones at a decent price. Also the Lisle tool on Amazon.com at $30.
But the other tools in the photo would be handy. In the youtube video they place a rag under the head to hold the valve up in order to replace the spring retainer. Since that is not possible in situ, putting it under pressure with compressed air using the hose seems to be the way to go. Or are there an easier way?

Regards. Jon

The first thing is to be aware that after the valve collets (or keepers as the Americans call them) have been in a while, they become stuck on the taper to the inside of the valve spring top retainer.  So as you try to push downwards the whole valve/retainer/collets and spring move as one.  You need to stop the valve moving so the retainer will move down it, and release the collets.  If the head is out you place something firm under the valve head, but if the head is still bolted on, then you need something inside to stop the valve moving.  But you also need to try to release the collets from the retainer.  Air pressure in the cylinder might hold the valve closed BUT only if the collets are not stuck tight on the taper to the retainer.

First bring that cylinder piston up to the top, so that the valve cannot drop inside at all, once it is released.  The top of the piston also provides a firm base on which to place something so that the closed valve is supported and cannot move downwards.  A piece of rope is often suggested as you can feed that in through the plug hole, it will curl around and form a protection for the top of the piston and provide something reasonably 'solid' to stop the valve moving down.  However, give the valve spring retainer a thump with a mallet first to break the seal between the collets and retainer.  You don't want to hit the valve itself otherwise the thump wont have the desired effect, so put a tube or socket over the top so that when you hit it, it will transfer the thump to the retainer but not touch the valve stem.  That should break the seal.  Now using the special tool you can depress the spring and retainer and the magnets should grip the collets and free the retainer.

Roy


Title: Re: Changing valve stem seal
Post by: matra530 on April 09, 2019, 09:03:47 am
Roy,

you are my hero. At first Ive got the tool from the USA. In Germany it costs 50% more then the import from the US shop.
The last two weeks Ive tried to find the rigt  valve steams. But Ive found only the valve steams for the 1.6 engine. The valve steams from Simon I dont want try again...

And no I see, that you wrote the Elring part number. Great. Thanks for your good job. I will order them imediatly.

... back from my Trainingunit (a Head only). I was not able to compress the spring with the lisle tool. Even a friend of mine (120kg) and good trained managed it. The springs are to strong.

Then Ive cheked on the homepage from elring the valve steams 702.951

9    14.3    17    14.2    

The valve from the Murena is 8mm. Isnt it to wide with 9mm?

Greatings

Andreas


Title: Re: Changing valve stem seal
Post by: roy4matra on April 13, 2019, 09:54:53 am
Roy,

you are my hero. At first Ive got the tool from the USA. In Germany it costs 50% more then the import from the US shop.
The last two weeks Ive tried to find the rigt  valve steams. But Ive found only the valve steams for the 1.6 engine. The valve steams from Simon I dont want try again...

And no I see, that you wrote the Elring part number. Great. Thanks for your good job. I will order them imediatly.

... back from my Trainingunit (a Head only). I was not able to compress the spring with the lisle tool. Even a friend of mine (120kg) and good trained managed it. The springs are to strong.

Then Ive cheked on the homepage from elring the valve steams 702.951

9    14.3    17    14.2    

The valve from the Murena is 8mm. Isnt it to wide with 9mm?

Greatings

Andreas

I'm not sure where you got your information Andreas, but the Murena 2.2 valve stems are 9 mm diameter (8.975 to 8.990mm to be exact, and the holes in the guides are 9.022 to 9.040mm so there is running clearance) so we are talking 9mm nominal and the seals fit perfectly.  I know as I've already used some.

If your valve stems are only 8 mm dia. they are not standard and the guides would have to have been made especially otherwise they would be too big!

As for the strength of the valve springs, they have to be strong otherwise you would get valve bounce; but again I have managed it OK.  As I stated in my last post you need to strike the retainers first to break the seal of the collets.

Roy


Title: Re: Changing valve stem seal
Post by: matra530 on April 17, 2019, 09:28:07 am
Hello Roy,

when you say, that 8,9 mm is original, than will I check it on my engine in my car. Possible, that the training head ist not original.