MatraSport Forum

Each model => Murena => Topic started by: Anders Dinsen on March 17, 2019, 12:24:31 pm



Title: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on March 17, 2019, 12:24:31 pm
So, the old faithful Murena was taken off the road and garaged a couple of years ago. Lack of time maintaining her made it a good decision back then. And frankly, I've been too busy to miss her much, just happy to have her sitting comfortably in a dry, ventilated space.

But the time has come to change the status quo and get some of the work done which was beginning to be pressing when I put her in the garage, especially the paint work which has frankly been dodgy since I bought her. Some of the English Club members may remember my car as "TVP", which from 1986 until Roy took her over, lived her life outside, in London. She had some repaired parking damages, but never a complete respray, only panels done - and frankly, the jobs done left a bit to wish for. So I'm rather looking forward to bringing her back in the pretty shape she deserves :)

First, however, I need to work rusty bolts, annoyning rivets, and probably even some glue.

Here's the first photo showing the current state of progress.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on March 17, 2019, 12:34:53 pm
I have a slightly annoying problem with these brackets, which are attaching the rear bumper to the chassis. Each is fitted in the trunk with two bolts. I had to cut the bolts and now I'm left with the nuts in cages with what's remaining of the bolts stuck in them. Here's a couple of options:

  • Fix the nut (which is sitting in a cage on the rear) in a vice and use a strong grip to turn the remains of the bolts out.
  • Grind the edge of the cages so they can be opened enough to remove the nuts and bolts, fit new nuts and weld the cages back
  • Buy new brackets


Any experience/good ideas?


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Jon Weywadt on March 17, 2019, 02:59:27 pm
I have a slightly annoying problem with these brackets, which are attaching the rear bumper to the chassis. Each is fitted in the trunk with two bolts. I had to cut the bolts and now I'm left with the nuts in cages with what's remaining of the bolts stuck in them. Here's a couple of options:

  • Fix the nut (which is sitting in a cage on the rear) in a vice and use a strong grip to turn the remains of the bolts out.
  • Grind the edge of the cages so they can be opened enough to remove the nuts and bolts, fit new nuts and weld the cages back
  • Buy new brackets


Any experience/good ideas?

Why would you need cages? Grind them off, unless there is no room to get a wrench on the nut while assembling.

Besides, what a beautiful Bosch tool. That is one I am missing in my collection of blue Bosch tools.  :D


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on March 17, 2019, 05:05:27 pm
Why would you need cages? Grind them off, unless there is no room to get a wrench on the nut while assembling.


You have a point there, Jon! There should be enough space to do it. It won't be easy but since an assistant is needed anyway to hold and align the bumper while assembling, it should be doable :)

Quote
Besides, what a beautiful Bosch tool. That is one I am missing in my collection of blue Bosch tools.  :D


It's a lovely little machine! Not that strong and runs on small 100 mm discs, but very efficient and handy :)

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 06, 2019, 01:02:44 pm
Work is progressing well as I'm preparing her for the paint job she will eventually be receiving. In the process, I found the glue on the right rear fender being loose and I managed to scrape out the peice of resin shown in the last picture below. This resin doesn't look right to me as I would have expected something more flexible. This indicates to me there has been a repair. The glue on the other side is fine and still seems a bit flexible.

I checked the repair manual, which instructs "dictungsklebestreifen", i.e. sealant strips to be made to refit the fenders. There's a reference number given for a Dichtungskleberpatrone 00 328 173 00. What is the right sealant to use?

I'm not going to remove the fenders, so this will just be filled properly.



Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 06, 2019, 09:52:17 pm
More progress...


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: JL on April 06, 2019, 10:26:51 pm
Hi Anders
You are making good progress, Upol Tigerseal or any good polyurethane sealer/adhesive will work to attach the rear wing/fender.
Regards
John


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 07, 2019, 02:45:58 pm
You are making good progress, Upol Tigerseal or any good polyurethane sealer/adhesive will work to attach the rear wing/fender.

Thanks, John! That shouldn't be too much of a problem fixing than.

If it wasn't for work, daily duties, and work on the other cars in the "stable", we'd be progressing much faster :)


/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 14, 2019, 05:19:57 pm
Had good progress again today as we removed the right hand side sill. the headlights and the front bumper. Still some way to go, and I've also run into a few new issues, e.g. I realized the headlight lifting mechanism is stuck, two of the headlight bolts snapped, and the rear hatch cable boke off by the handle (hence the alternative "keeping hatch closed" feature in the lower picture), but these are just minor issues which are probably easy to fix. And I've been able to check a few boxes in my TODO-list :)

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 20, 2019, 01:00:06 pm
Deciding what to work on and sticking to that is important in order to keep a systematic approach to the work when it's done in spare time, but I changed my mind about working on the rear and has turned the car around in the garage to get started on the front.

There are multiple reasons for that: My garage barely allows me to work around the car, so the end that I'm active on needs to be by the door. Second, finishing something is always good, it doesn't help working on everything at the same time, and the front can be finished now. Third, there are so many rivets, wires, screws, rusty metal parts that actually finishing the front will involve a decent amount of work which will be good to have in status "done" once I take the engine out. Fourth, I can't get the rear done until I remove the exhaust, which I don't want to do until I'm ready to take the engine out.

So below are pictures of her current state. Next up is removing the battery well, shocks, wheels, steering rack and a few other parts to get access to the chassis so that it can be carefully cleaned and zinc sprayed in salty and corroded areas. It looks quite good, though.

I may need a new radiator, by the way.

BTW, the problem with the headlight mechanism was that the vacuum actuator has seized in the shaft. I don't think I can repair it so will need a new one. If someone has one lying around, I'll be willing to pay a good price :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on April 21, 2019, 08:53:55 pm
Hi there. I had the same problem with my rear bumper brackets! I ground them as flush as I could get them bent the cage where it is not welded and removed them. Then fitted new nuts bent them back into shape and added a spot of weld. That way the bolts could still move along the channel for adjustment. Took about half an hour. 


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 22, 2019, 06:42:57 am
Hi there. I had the same problem with my rear bumper brackets! I ground them as flush as I could get them bent the cage where it is not welded and removed them. Then fitted new nuts bent them back into shape and added a spot of weld. That way the bolts could still move along the channel for adjustment. Took about half an hour. 

That's the better solution! The cages are now gone on mine, so a little helper will be needed when we get to refitting the bumper.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 22, 2019, 07:35:19 pm
The vacuum actuator turned out to be fixable. I opened it using a pair of pliers. Once opened I could remove the tube in which the shaft should slide. It required a good amount to force to pull it out, but I got it out without visible damage to the shaft.

The problem seems to be the blue O-ring seal, which fits inside the tube and has broken. A part of it has probably found its way down by the shaft and caused it to stick.

It's not a standard round O-ring, but rectangular and slightly conical in cross section, not unlike the seals that fit around brake pistons, so I'll have to do some research to find it. Some kind of grease also need to be applied to the shaft before assembly, and the halves must be cleaned and painted, of course.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 23, 2019, 09:32:18 pm
So, I've learnt something new today, namely that pneumatic seals are lip seals. The old seal had completely lost its lip! The shaft is 10 mm, the outer diameter of the old seal is 18, and the height appears to be 4 mm.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Moes on April 25, 2019, 09:15:37 am
Hi Anders

Nice to see and follow the work you are doing on your Murena, I am looking forward to see whats next, and the end result  :D 

Have you decided to keep it in red, or are you (and your sons) considering any other colors?

I has been a long time, I would like to stop by some day, when your are working on her.

Best regards Frederik


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 25, 2019, 06:54:10 pm
Hej Frederik!

So am I (looking forward to what's next and the end result!) - I have a plan, but also do what makes sense to do, and like the vacuum actuator, I don't always know what comes next. Red is the colour of my car, by definition, original and beautiful. The correct red, of course :) Years ago, I wanted her to be dark blue, and I still think that's a beautiful colour for the Murena, but that's not my car ;)

You are always very welcome here! This weekend will be busy with other stuff, but next weekend perhaps. We can figure out something on Messenger, I think :)

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 28, 2019, 04:48:48 pm
Just some photos showing todays progress and some details of the chassis. As can be seen, there's some surface corrosion in the chassis on the right side behind the radiator. Nothing serious, though.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Jon Weywadt on April 30, 2019, 12:04:37 pm
Judging from some of the photos of brackets and such, it is time to break out the concentrated Phosphoric acid, to neutralise the rust, before painting with Hammerite.
That was some of the first I did to mine way back when.  ;D


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 03, 2019, 07:03:25 am
Judging from some of the photos of brackets and such, it is time to break out the concentrated Phosphoric acid, to neutralise the rust, before painting with Hammerite.
That was some of the first I did to mine way back when.  ;D

You're right, there are several items that need just that treatment! This one cannot be saved, though.

But it's not the next thing to do: I've decided to steam clean the chassis and that will be my next job, and then brushing down the two rusty surfaces on the chassis, both in preparation for a layer or two of cold-galvanization. Expect more over the weekend :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 04, 2019, 05:33:13 pm
Today's small jobs completed:

  • Bought a steam cleaner
  • Left hand coolant pipe was rubbing against the bracket for the vacuum actuator for the headlights, now it's fixed to the chassis
  • Radiator is out
  • Steering rack is out as well
  • Some surface rust wire brushed, pic shows area in front of the cabin fan


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 05, 2019, 06:48:02 am
The front of the Murena is where lots of of wires, cables, pipes, attachments, bars meet. That's probably the most annoying thing about working on the front: It's a complicated "mess". Most cars have are the same in this respect, of course.

Stripping the front completely is not on my agenda. My car is well kept and good, so there's no need to removing any suspension, brake system, wiring etc.

But not stripping things does make things a bit more complicated: It feels a little like cooking a menu in a too small, unordered kitchen: It can be done, but it requires more concentration and moving things around - and probably a bit more time for thinking, planning, and coffee breaks :)

I was going to upload a picture of the "mess", but then I had second thoughts and chose this one instead, taken in the evening sun yesterday. It's showing thin rust protection dripping out from the inside of the front cross member. To me, that's beauty :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 06, 2019, 09:17:21 pm
Steam cleaning... not hyper efficient in itself, but helps dissolve road dirt so it can be brushed away :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 06, 2019, 09:26:56 pm
Right side, steam cleaned. Left side, uncleaned.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on May 07, 2019, 07:31:18 pm
Impressive. I may get one of those.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 08, 2019, 06:21:56 am
Impressive. I may get one of those.

I think it's worth the money. The steam helps dissolve the dirt so it can be brushed off. I use a combination of various rotating steel and cleaning brushes. It takes time, but it's rewarding to see something like this. Blasting is probably faster, but has its own issues. There are other areas where the road dirt is really stuck, though. Still working on those!


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 11, 2019, 08:28:24 am
Ok, it's time for a quiz... what is this? :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 12, 2019, 07:10:43 am
First picture is how the Zinga zinc paint turns out, not quite white, but very light grey. See my post on the corrosion thread about this product http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php/topic,2502.0.html

Second is the right hand front on the inside after brushing. Still some dust and dirt to remove before spraying it, but I'm almost there now. Last picture is a very dusty Murena :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 17, 2019, 05:12:51 pm
Right side finally cleaned down enough to receive its zinc coat. Looks pretty, I think! Left side is now in progress. I removed the brackets for the coolant pipes under the car to be able to move them around more when I'm working and they are not recoverable  ::)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on May 17, 2019, 05:46:34 pm
That looks great. Are you going to leave it like that as it has a certain "new" look to it or spray it?


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 17, 2019, 06:46:40 pm
I'm probably going to leave most of it exposed as it is as it allows me to see if it "works". The zinga paint is supposed to re-galvanize the steel below by a chemical reaction similar to what happens in warm galvanization, just cold and therefore much slower. The only problem with zinga paint is that it requires a very clean surface, especially regarding the salty white corrosion which our cars naturally suffer from. Red rust is actually not as critical since the zinc can slowly "eat" through it, but the white salts create a boundary between the metal and the zinc-paint so that no re-galvanization takes place.

There are areas which I can't clean to the required standard, e.g. inside the beams. I will spray those areas with a very thin penetrating corrosion protection product based on linseed oil. This should stop any corrosion, including white rust. I plan to give the suspension components that tratement too, just followed by a layer of black corrosion protection which hardens to a thick layer (the linseed oil based product is extremely thin and seems to take weeks to harden, and even then it keeps flowing, so will need to be refreshed from time to time).


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on May 17, 2019, 07:16:05 pm
I was curious when looking at your photos. Both my cars had exactly the corrosion at the same place. The only thing i could think of was it was very near where the cooling pipes run so maybe the jeat or a small escape of hot air steam could have caused it.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 17, 2019, 08:30:38 pm
That's interesting!

I had the same thought, so I asked Roy who maintained my car for the owner while it was running in England, whether he knew of any coolant leak by the lower hose. He didn't and suggested that the corrosion could be due to the galvanization being thin in these areas. Inspecting the problem closely, I had to agree, and actually could even spot the edges of the zinc layer around the corroded areas.

Now, if you look at this photo, you can actually see that the right hand side of the car was on top when the chassis was submerged in the zinc bath. I think the corrosion we are seeing are signs of bubbles having developed during the galvanization on the inside of the front beams.

(http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Murena/Gallery2/Med/galv_2.jpg)

Source: http://www.matrasport.dk/Cars/Murena/Gallery2/Med/galv_2.html


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 19, 2019, 07:16:34 pm
Some pictures taken today with my DSLR. I have an album on Flickr with the photos, by the way: https://www.flickr.com/photos/adinsen/albums/72157674225364871


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on May 19, 2019, 08:41:34 pm
Very nice album. What wheels are those with youur winter tyres ?


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 19, 2019, 08:59:50 pm
Very nice album. What wheels are those with youur winter tyres ?

Thanks. They are Borbet CA, it's a good rim for winter use as it has a heavy coat of paint on the inside. Also it was available in a size fitting the Murena:
https://www.borbet.de/de/ca-crystal-silver

I don't have tyres on the original rims, that's why I've got her on the winter tyres. I might sell them once I''ve got the original rims tyred and back on the car as I don't expect to run her in snow (though the Murena is quite good in snow!)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 25, 2019, 07:50:02 am
The vacuum actuator is now functional again, just waiting to be refitted. The seal I've fitted is an 18x10x4 oil seal. The little cover which the seal used to be sitting in is reused to hold the seal. It's fitted with liquid gasket. The shaft is lightly oiled and everything is cleaned, sanded, brushed, fitted and pressed together, and painted with zinga plus a coat of alu-zinc paint to make it look fresh :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 26, 2019, 08:11:34 am
Discovered a small problem yesterday as the bellow around the lower joint has split. I think I've found one of the right size on eBay, but so far hasn't had success releasing the nut in order to split the arm from the ball joint and take a correct measure. For some reason, there's a plastic cover sitting around the nut so I can't get a perfect grip on the nut and has therefore not wanted to apply force. I guess I'll let it soak rust solvent a few days more and perhaps cut down the plastic. I wonder if anyone would know why it's there (the plastic)?


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on May 26, 2019, 02:17:19 pm
Sorry Anders just checked.mine and they dont have that ( sort of washer) Bit of a guess....could it be to lock tbe nut in place?


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 26, 2019, 02:41:46 pm
Sorry Anders just checked.mine and they dont have that ( sort of washer) Bit of a guess....could it be to lock tbe nut in place?

Thanks for checking, Terry! Yes, it looks like it's a washer of some sort, shaped like a bowl with edges. You may be right. I'll take a better picture looking from below. The nut is a locknut, so I don't see why additional locking would be needed. I had the lower joints replaced for precaution 12 years ago, so it is certainly not 'original' :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on May 26, 2019, 03:13:42 pm
What am I talking about? of course mine wouldn't look like that as I replaced mine too..however I found a photo showing the track rod ends before I replaced them and they have the same washer..... I also dug out the "old" nut from the ball joints and will post a photo.it shows a locking mechanism and I distinctly now remember they had the same washer which I just cut off. I f you zoom in to the track rod end you will see it


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on May 26, 2019, 03:30:23 pm
a better picture also the "nut" the washer I think went "around" the locking part.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 26, 2019, 08:50:13 pm
Thank you, Terry! So apparantly it's a thing with some ball joints. A google search so far haven't given me any clue, and as the picture here shows, it's obviously not locking anything... It's a mystery! ;D


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on May 27, 2019, 11:01:17 am
Hi Anders sorry to be a pain. Going back to your wheels,
I am presuming they are 14 4 x 100!  How near to the et did you get them?


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 27, 2019, 08:08:50 pm
Hi Anders sorry to be a pain. Going back to your wheels,
I am presuming they are 14 4 x 100!  How near to the et did you get them?

Ha!, that took a bit of checking my files and the rims, but here we go: They're 6Jx14 ET30, LK4x98 with Alfa/Fiat/Lancia center rings "ZP 5237" (don't know what that number means).

I bought them from Reifen.com in 2006, and I still have the invoice :)

I don't remember the ET of the original Murena rims just now, but 30 is quite close to that, AFAIR.
No, they're not 4x100, but 98 mm bolt circle.

Now that I'm at it, here are two photos of Sunday's work, one showing upper control arm rust protected. I disconnected it from the upper ball joint and gave it first a coat of linseed oil, then a coat of black rust protection. It's still very sticky after 24 hours, so I need to keep the front suspension lifted a bit to avoid it staining the chassis. Plenty of cardboard pieces helped shield the spray from the chassis, but the pretty white zinga did take a few stains. Not that it matters... :)

The other photo is showing the almost clean inside of the front left chassis beam. Still some work to do before it can be zinga-coated.

/Anders



Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on May 27, 2019, 08:26:26 pm
Thanks Anders. Original et is 28.
That looks like new...Great work. Must take some time.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 27, 2019, 10:18:30 pm
Thanks Anders. Original et is 28.
That looks like new...Great work. Must take some time.

Thank you... progress is  quite slow indeed, especially in all the little corners... but underneath the sand, dirt, and salt is ... beautiful galvanized steel! It's satisfying work :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: roy4matra on May 28, 2019, 03:29:51 pm
Discovered a small problem yesterday as the bellow around the lower joint has split. I think I've found one of the right size on eBay, but so far hasn't had success releasing the nut in order to split the arm from the ball joint and take a correct measure. For some reason, there's a plastic cover sitting around the nut so I can't get a perfect grip on the nut and has therefore not wanted to apply force. I guess I'll let it soak rust solvent a few days more and perhaps cut down the plastic. I wonder if anyone would know why it's there (the plastic)?

The white plastic washer/shield (if that is what you are talking about Anders) was there partly to protect the rubber gaiter from stones I believe.  Many cars have 'lost' them as they often get broken when taking the nut off the ball joint swivel.

You say the nut wont come off, but I have only had that problem if I tried to use a socket with a hand tool such as a ratchet or breaker bar.  The reason is they are too slow and the joint swivel normally separates from the wishbone on the taper before the Nyloc nut is undone, so then the whole thing simply rotates and the nut wont come all the way off the thread!  However, I have always undone them with my impact wrench which is 'too fast' for the joint, and the nut is zipped off before it can start rotating.  Never failed yet.

Roy.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 28, 2019, 10:45:02 pm
Discovered a small problem yesterday as the bellow around the lower joint has split. I think I've found one of the right size on eBay, but so far hasn't had success releasing the nut in order to split the arm from the ball joint and take a correct measure. For some reason, there's a plastic cover sitting around the nut so I can't get a perfect grip on the nut and has therefore not wanted to apply force. I guess I'll let it soak rust solvent a few days more and perhaps cut down the plastic. I wonder if anyone would know why it's there (the plastic)?

The white plastic washer/shield (if that is what you are talking about Anders) was there partly to protect the rubber gaiter from stones I believe.  Many cars have 'lost' them as they often get broken when taking the nut off the ball joint swivel.

You say the nut wont come off, but I have only had that problem if I tried to use a socket with a hand tool such as a ratchet or breaker bar.  The reason is they are too slow and the joint swivel normally separates from the wishbone on the taper before the Nyloc nut is undone, so then the whole thing simply rotates and the nut wont come all the way off the thread!  However, I have always undone them with my impact wrench which is 'too fast' for the joint, and the nut is zipped off before it can start rotating.  Never failed yet.

Roy.

Thanks Roy! The nut just came off! I don't have an impact wrench, so I cut down the edges of the washer/shield so that I could get a good grip, put my foot against the lower arm, and pulled strongly on my ratchet. The nut finally gave in and came off just as it should. The taper was well stuck but I got it loose using my ball joint splitter. TRIDAN 85013817 is the replacement part I've ordered now, it's a pack of five, it anyone else would need one.



Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 01, 2019, 10:53:05 pm
Update on the past couple of days:

  • Brushing and zinga painting of the front beams completed
  • Front beam and suspension components corrosion protected
  • Radiator and new coolant pipe brackets ordered and on the way

Next up is refitting the wiring looms and connectors. Could be tomorrow's little job :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on June 02, 2019, 08:00:00 am
Ace job. When you doing the rear?


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 02, 2019, 11:30:19 am
Ace job. When you doing the rear?

Thanks - from the expert on ace jobs, I feel proud:)

Well, when I've fitted the new bellow under the joint, renewed bellows on the steering rack, fitted the new brackets for the water pipes, refitted the steering rack, fitted the radiator, connected the plumbing, connected electrics (battery connections including), vacuum to the headlight mechanism, ground and painted the three cover panels for the wiper motor and blower, refitted the blower and the panels, refitted the horns, painted and refitted the headlight lifter bar, fitted new metal panels on the side and under the radiator, refitted the wheel arches and the battery tub.... I think that's it. Oh yes, before I start doing the chassis on the rear, I need to take the engine out to refit a new seal around the chaincase cover. It will also improve access to the rear. The coming weekends are going to be busy with Le Mans and a conference in New York coming up. Probably sometime over the summer? :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 02, 2019, 08:58:14 pm
New steering rack boots arriving tomorrow. I wonder if fitting without dismantling the tie rod ends will really be possible?

 https://www.vsm.skf.com/mt/en/product-assortment/steering-boot

Video showing installation: https://youtu.be/nMoxlihaGD8



Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: sc1962 on June 03, 2019, 03:19:50 am
let us know how you get on with the boot Anders.iv just done one of mine with replacements fron Matramagic..i had the same idea but had to remove the track rod end.the problem being that despite copious amounts of lube the small end of the boot is very small and  not very stretchy and I feared splitting it.great pics and looking forward to your progress.have you repaired the sills ??? I notice that theyre off the car.and if so what weight fg  matt did you use ?? I need to do mine as well.great work,steve


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 03, 2019, 06:27:39 am
let us know how you get on with the boot Anders.iv just done one of mine with replacements fron Matramagic..i had the same idea but had to remove the track rod end.the problem being that despite copious amounts of lube the small end of the boot is very small and  not very stretchy and I feared splitting it.great pics and looking forward to your progress.have you repaired the sills ??? I notice that theyre off the car.and if so what weight fg  matt did you use ?? I need to do mine as well.great work,steve

Thanks, I'll keep you posted, Steve :) I have had problems with the boots before which cracked after only a year or two. I think all Matra parts vendors are using the same part, and it has hopefully improved in quality since then, but I decided this time to try a universal one from SKF. The Simca track rod ends are quite large, though, so I'm trying to remove them. I have had them off before, and it wasn't a problem then, but they seem to be stuck now.

I haven't looked at the side sills yet, so haven't thought about matt weight yet. I'm doing the chassis first before attending to the body parts.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: sc1962 on June 03, 2019, 03:21:38 pm
yeah I had a sort of cone/funnel to slide the boot on but tbh I bottled it halfway thru.i did the drivers side and the track rod end was l/h thread if that helps when trying to work out which way the nut turns.as I said I ordered from matramagic but imo theyre no better than universal ones cos you have to cut them to size which was a bit disappointing as they were twice the price of universal ones.the only prob I found was that I had two universal qh boots.but the large end diameter was way too small.steve


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 03, 2019, 09:09:45 pm
yeah I had a sort of cone/funnel to slide the boot on but tbh I bottled it halfway thru.i did the drivers side and the track rod end was l/h thread if that helps when trying to work out which way the nut turns.as I said I ordered from matramagic but imo theyre no better than universal ones cos you have to cut them to size which was a bit disappointing as they were twice the price of universal ones.the only prob I found was that I had two universal qh boots.but the large end diameter was way too small.steve

This is the SKF boot mostly fitted (needs strips). It looks nothing like the OEM part, but hopefully is of good quality. The fat end of this one fits perfectly when cut to the largest diameter.

Yeah, I did try turning the wrong way, thanks! but fitting the rack back on the car and inserting the rod end in the upright mount helped stabilize things so I could apply force and get it loose. Lubricating spray in the boot and a plastic bag over the end, and the boot slid in. Getting the remains of the plastic bag out was the last struggle.

Now to the other side :-)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on June 03, 2019, 09:18:57 pm
Had exactly the same problem i  forgot that  .one must be a left hand thread. Once the locking nut was slack i sprayed white greese on the track rod end to mark how far it had to go back on and counted the complete turns to remove the end. Hope ive done it right!


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 05, 2019, 04:16:24 pm
Had exactly the same problem i  forgot that  .one must be a left hand thread. Once the locking nut was slack i sprayed white greese on the track rod end to mark how far it had to go back on and counted the complete turns to remove the end. Hope ive done it right!

Both hare left hand... just saying :)

I'm going to have it professionally aligned when I'm done with everything, so I haven't worried too much about getting it exactly right.

It's election day, constitution day, and a day off, but really too hot here to do anything sensible. But while it was still a bit cool, I fitted this. Some free tips: The top clip is very tight. I pulled it out a bit on the middle and slid on one side of the groove, and then carefully plied it into the groove working both ends. It takes some fiddling. The lower clip should best be fitted on the boot before it's pulled up, I regretted I hadn't :)

If anyone wonders how I can remove the upright without releasing the torsion bar as the instructions say on both Roy's web site and the repair manual, I've suspended the lower control arm on my hydraulic jack. It's a large one with a large platform (the rubber mat on it is visible in the picture), and I find it is a realiable solution for small jobs.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on June 05, 2019, 09:32:34 pm
Exactly how i did it. Great ninds and all that. Really bugging me. I could have sworn one was right hand and one left when I did mine. Will check the weekend


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on June 05, 2019, 09:40:52 pm
Oh....and thanks! Looking at your photo i realised when i replaced.my drop link rubbers i had the bolt through the other way....douh.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 06, 2019, 06:54:39 pm
Oh....and thanks! Looking at your photo i realised when i replaced.my drop link rubbers i had the bolt through the other way....douh.

Ah, well that should be an easy fix if you have removed the bolt once. I couldn't when I tried it :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on June 07, 2019, 07:47:46 pm
Did you tourqe tthe bolts or just "do them up?"


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 08, 2019, 05:36:59 am
Did you tourqe tthe bolts or just "do them up?"

I only removed the top nut and the rubbers. So far, I haven't torqued it, only did it until I felt the rubbers were well compressed. Now that you remind me, I'll put it on my todo list to torque all nuts and bolts by the spec in the repair manual, thank you for that :)

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 09, 2019, 09:32:35 am
The new radiator has arrived, a beautiful peice of aluminium (sorry about the angling of the picture, please blame the photographer (me!)). Also bought new brackets for the coolant pipes. The old rubbers are fine.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on June 09, 2019, 08:37:38 pm
This work you're doing is amazing! I spent all day working on mine and only mamaged to fabricate piece of interior trim and fit it and re align the rear bumper and fix in place!!!


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 09, 2019, 10:33:46 pm
This work you're doing is amazing! I spent all day working on mine and only mamaged to fabricate piece of interior trim and fit it and re align the rear bumper and fix in place!!!

Interior trim, that sounds like something that can take time... and adjustments too! My work today was tightening a few nuts and thinking about what new hoses I should order... but the important thing is ... enjoying it!  8)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: lewisman on June 10, 2019, 05:53:19 pm
Radiator looks good. Was it custom made?


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on June 10, 2019, 06:17:05 pm
This work you're doing is amazing! I spent all day working on mine and only mamaged to fabricate piece of interior trim and fit it and re align the rear bumper and fix in place!!!

Interior trim, that sounds like something that can take time... and adjustments too! My work today was tightening a few nuts and thinking about what new hoses I should order... but the important thing is ... enjoying it!  8)

That is so true no one can imagine the enjoyment I get just pottering about on the car. Dont want to finish it. Already told the misses i am going to get a baggy when this is finisbed. ( IF I  EVER FINISH IT) lol


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 11, 2019, 10:08:27 pm
Radiator looks good. Was it custom made?

It's a beauty, really. It's obviously hand-made, but seems to be a series production item. Simon had it in stock :)
https://www.simon-auto-shop.de/epages/Simon-Auto-Anlasser-Lichtmaschinen.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/Simon-Auto-Anlasser-Lichtmaschinen/Products/06002B


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 11, 2019, 10:09:40 pm
This work you're doing is amazing! I spent all day working on mine and only mamaged to fabricate piece of interior trim and fit it and re align the rear bumper and fix in place!!!

Interior trim, that sounds like something that can take time... and adjustments too! My work today was tightening a few nuts and thinking about what new hoses I should order... but the important thing is ... enjoying it!  8)

That is so true no one can imagine the enjoyment I get just pottering about on the car. Dont want to finish it. Already told the misses i am going to get a baggy when this is finisbed. ( IF I  EVER FINISH IT) lol

 ;D ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 22, 2019, 05:33:51 am
Spent last weekend at Le Mans, hence no updates, but I did receive some hoses for the front end which I trial-fitted yesterday.

As Roy has described in his excellent magazine articles, forum posts, and FAQ on Murena cooling, keeping the Murena cooling system leak free is key to good cooling. No leaks means pressure can build and hence no boiling will take place (not even local boiling) in the head.

But boosting the water flow won't harm anyone and I bought a Davies Craig electric water pump years ago wanting to fit it as a booster pump. (I know of at least one Murena running it as the only water pump on the engine.) Now that I'm working on the front, I decided it was time to complete this lilttle project.

It's a simple installation, in principle: The pump is controlled by an adjustable thermostat in the thermostat housing on the engine. A cable runs to the pump sitting in the front of the car, behind the radiator.

Unlike the mechanical pump on the eninge with its straight impeller blades, these electric pumps are not pressure pumps, but designed to provide flow. They therefore needs to be mounted in the connection to the lower inlet to the radiator. As I'm running it only as a booster pump, I've diverted slightly from Davies Craig's advice and fitted the pump on a 90 degree bend about halfway upwards from the lower inlet to the radiator. Two 45 degrees bends connected with a joiner connects the pump to the water pipe running from the engine. Apart from this, nothing original is modified.

While this does mean that there will be a bubble of air to push out of the electric pump before water reaches the raditor during filling of the circuit, once the system is bled through the upper vent from the radiator, the pump will be running in water and boost the flow when the thermostat kicks in.

And this way the pump fits niicely under the battery tub, and noone will be hinted of this very un-original modification, except if they get a glimpse of the blue silicone hoses and decide to get under the car to take a closer look :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: sc1962 on June 22, 2019, 03:53:03 pm
that's an excellent mod Anders and its great lookin at how the cars progressing.Do you know the part no.of the pump ??? Im already looking forward to the next instalment  :D :D


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on June 22, 2019, 06:08:02 pm
 Brilliant.  You are obviously much more qualified than myself so excuse my ignorance.  Does.the flow rate of the pump have to match that of the waterpump?  Would it create a problem if it doesnt.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 22, 2019, 11:13:26 pm
that's an excellent mod Anders and its great lookin at how the cars progressing.Do you know the part no.of the pump ??? Im already looking forward to the next instalment  :D :D

Thanks! Two 's ???

The pump is the EWP80 https://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/electric-water-pump-only-80-lmin

Brilliant.  You are obviously much more qualified than myself so excuse my ignorance.  Does.the flow rate of the pump have to match that of the waterpump?  Would it create a problem if it doesnt.

I've spent too much time thinking about this, but now that you ask me and I went back to look at my old notes, I realize I've made a serious mistake! :o

But... Both pumps allows water to flow relatively freely through them, so the flow rate will be dictated by the strongest pump minus the friction in the system. I will have to adjust the pump controlling electric thermo-switch so that the electric pump does not kick in until the engine thermostat is open - otherwise the electric pump will work against it. The electric pump is in the radiator circuit, whereas the original mechanical is on the engine circulating the coolant through the auxillary circuit including the heater matrix. The drawing here , which I made years ago, shows the principle.

The mistake is that I've fitted the pump the wrong way - it's pushing water into the radiator instead of into the engine...  that will be next installment, I guess! :D


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 23, 2019, 02:11:52 pm
I've had to give up - temporarily. I need a straight connector for the EWP80 pump to make it fit, as can be seen in the top picture. The hose on the pipe running from the engine can be pushed further in, so with the straight connector, it will fit well under the tub. These connectors are available as accessories from the Davies Craig webshop in Australia... so I'm going to look around to see if there is one closer to here :)

The pump connections aren't symmetrical so the connections has to be made differently than my incorrect fitment. However, with a straight connector on the pump, I just need two 45 degree pieces, so it will be simpler. For now, I've fitted a straight peice of silicone hose I had.

I've also fitted the brake booster back, and the cover behind it (repainted). The long screws are because I haven't ground and cleaned the area in front of the windscreen so don't want to rivet it on yet.

I'll be in NYC next week (incl weekend), so don't expect any updates until I'm back and has recovered from the jetlag.



Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on June 23, 2019, 06:30:06 pm
Your drawing shows the pump drawing water from the radiator, and flowing to the engine. I would have it the same way so it pulls water through the radiator. Do you mean the pumps were working against each other?
Regardless still think your a genius!
P.S STOP SCRATCHING YOUR NEW PAINTWORK!!!!!
LOL


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 24, 2019, 07:17:06 am
Your drawing shows the pump drawing water from the radiator, and flowing to the engine. I would have it the same way so it pulls water through the radiator. Do you mean the pumps were working against each other?
Regardless still think your a genius!
P.S STOP SCRATCHING YOUR NEW PAINTWORK!!!!!
LOL

Exactly they would have worked against each other, it would have been a mess! :o

I didn't feel very bright yesterday trying out different combinations of hoses and pump positons, trying to wrap my head around how it would fit in the strange space between the radiator and the battery tub - it looks so simple when you see the solution, but getting to that point involves trying out different things until it fits. Including taking the tub in and out. SORRY! I SHALL NOT AGAIN SCRATCH MY NEW PAINTWORK !!!

The Zinga is very porous on the surface, but this is because unlike real paint, it works from the underside chemically reacting directly with the metal underneath. So scratches are only cosmetic. C'est gnial! :D


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: sc1962 on June 24, 2019, 02:19:19 pm
that's an excellent mod Anders and its great lookin at how the cars progressing.Do you know the part no.of the pump ??? Im already looking forward to the next instalment  :D :D

Thanks! Two 's ???

The pump is the EWP80 https://www.carbuildersolutions.com/uk/electric-water-pump-only-80-lmin

Brilliant.  You are obviously much more qualified than myself so excuse my ignorance.  Does.the flow rate of the pump have to match that of the waterpump?  Would it create a problem if it doesnt.

I've spent too much time thinking about this, but now that you ask me and I went back to look at my old notes, I realize I've made a serious mistake! :o

But... Both pumps allows water to flow relatively freely through them, so the flow rate will be dictated by the strongest pump minus the friction in the system. I will have to adjust the pump controlling electric thermo-switch so that the electric pump does not kick in until the engine thermostat is open - otherwise the electric pump will work against it. The electric pump is in the radiator circuit, whereas the original mechanical is on the engine circulating the coolant through the auxillary circuit including the heater matrix. The drawing here , which I made years ago, shows the principle.

The mistake is that I've fitted the pump the wrong way - it's pushing water into the radiator instead of into the engine...  that will be next installment, I guess! :D
haha sorry Anders I dont know how the hell the coins ended up on there.i was asking my wife to show me how to post pics on the site and was reading your post when she showed me lol


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 07, 2019, 01:02:40 pm
Back from NYC, almost recovered from jetlag and lack of sleep (busy, but very good trip!), I've now finally cleaned this iiriplaceable and valuable glass fibre panel, the one that carries the prep-142 sticker :)

Still some work to be done derusting various brackets and cleaning and painting the headlight lifting bar and refitting it, but it feels good getting back to work :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: roy4matra on July 07, 2019, 01:49:11 pm
Your drawing shows the pump drawing water from the radiator, and flowing to the engine. I would have it the same way so it pulls water through the radiator. Do you mean the pumps were working against each other?

Exactly they would have worked against each other, it would have been a mess! :o


Hello Anders,

I was talking to a company a while back, that specialises in electric water pumps on cars, and asked about how the system copes with the thermostat when not open or 'fighting' against the standard water pump, and this was their answer:

Your remove the thermostat and can throw it away!  You also remove the impeller from the original water pump because it is no longer required.*  Their system admittedly has their own electric water pump controller and coolant temperature sensor, but it works like this - since the coolant is no longer made to flow by the standard water pump that acts like the thermostat for fast warm up, and their water pump runs for a few seconds every say 30 seconds just to move the coolant slightly.  It monitors the coolant temperature as it is increasing and the pump run time increases whilst the time between runs decreases until the engine is fully up to temperature.

Now if the car is standing still or going very slowly, the pump will run sufficiently to keep the engine at the correct temperature, but once on the move and the air flow through the radiator is adequate the pump operation will drop to a level that is enough to circulate the coolant without over cooling it, yet irrespective of engine revs.

As you know, a normal water pump rotates relative to engine speed so it is turning slowly at idle just when you need it to be higher if standing in traffic, yet it will be turning faster than required at higher revs on the open road, when that level of circulation is not required, which is when the thermostat closes down to restrict the flow if necessary.  So an electric pump is better as it can deliver more when required at low engine revs and less when not required at high revs.  The reduction of the water pump load at speed should also release a little more power! :)

*One thing I said earlier is not true though.  If you remove the impeller from our water pump as they state, then there is nothing pressing against the original seal to keep it in place and prevent a coolant leak.  Also with no real coolant circulation in the engine whilst cold, the internal heater would be slow to provide any heat.  This latter problem is one addressed to some extent by the electric water pump running intermittently during the warm up phase.  If it is still insufficient, then they do a small additional pump for just the heater.  However, with regard to the impeller, if you use one of the new water pump kits that Simon Auto can supply, it should be possible to remove it, because the impeller is no longer needed to press against the seal.  His seal kits contain a fixed carbon seal but have a rotating ceramic seal that rubs against it. (that ceramic seal is a tight fit on the shaft, which allows the standard impeller to be removed and left out)  The ceramic/carbon seal is better anyway so it is a win/win situation.

As I have a couple of those pumps with the incorrect curved vane impellers which are useless, I was going to try one of these electric water pump kits on an engine to see just how they would work.  I once looked at the possibility of fitting a VW VR6 engine in the Murena and found that that engine has an electric coolant pump, which is what got me started at looking at this method of cooling!

Roy


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 10, 2019, 07:25:12 am
Thanks a lot, Roy for your lengthy answer :)

I was talking to a company a while back, that specialises in electric water pumps on cars, and asked about how the system copes with the thermostat when not open or 'fighting' against the standard water pump, and this was their answer:

The answer sounds like what I've read Davies Craig say back when I read about their pumps: Remove the thermostat and mechanical pump and install the electric pump in the lower radiator hose, plus an additional much smaller pump to drive the heater matrix, and a digital controller to ensure the speed of the large water pump is regulated to keep the engine temperature constant. Hans Mlbjerg has done that on his 505 turbo converted Murena, and it works well, he says. I haven't seen his installation, but we talked about it on the way to Le Mans this year, and his car is running well and stable. I think he has fitted a larger pump than the one I'm working with, though, but not sure. Davies Craig has different models of different size.

So why do I still want to keep the thermostat and old mechanical water pump in the system?

Well, this is because I'm a careful person, I think. I too found myself fascinated with the idea of the electric water pump, but I didn't want to change the system fundamentally. Keeping the mechanical pump in the system ensures nothing goes fundamentally wrong, and also removes the need for the supplementary pump for the heater matrix. I'm trying an iterative approach where the electric pump will initially be running only as a booster pump (and right now, since I'm missing a straight connector to it, it's not going in the car). Later, I may go all electric, if it works. Or go back to the mechanical system if it doesn't improve anything.

Using the pump as a booster is not against the advice from Davies Craig. They do support fitting the pump as a booster pump using a mechanical thermostat adjusted to only enable the pump when the temperature advances above the thermostat opening temperature. See the picture below, which was taken already in 2008 - yes, I've been working on this for more than 10 years now :)

I'll try to get Hans to post some pictures of his installation and notes about his experiences. What you and I have researched and he has implemented, *is* interesting in several ways!

Best,
Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 13, 2019, 08:55:02 am
Roy, almost immediately after having posted my reply to you, I started doubting my doubt... why not just replace the mechanical pump now? What am I afraid of?

As you point out, it will be the better solution than just boosting, for all the reasons you say, like being able to remove the thermostat, and simplifying things = less possibility for error.

The only thing I need is the straight connector, the supplementary pump for the heater matrix, and figure out a way to control that. Jesper might be able to help me close off an old defective pump (I think I have one somewhere, and he has one).Food for thought there... I appreciate the inspiration! :)

Lennart and Jesper popped by yesterday, by the way :)





Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 15, 2019, 08:25:14 am
Headlight lifting mechanism is now refitted with new silicone vacuum hoses and the repaired vacuum actuator. Coolant hoses are checked and tightened (still without electric pump). Tub and fenders are back in place (not yet riveted, only held together using some 5 mm bolts). Wiring is refitted, and battery...

Next step is to push the car out of the garage, refill cooling system, and start her up, checking that everything is water and air proof, and that the vacuum actuator works as it should after my repair.

Also, I'll paint and fit the new pieces of protective metal around the radiator after that then, and fit the cable for the headlight emergency lift, tacho cable and new protective grommets, heater fan, and a few other things. After that I will be putting her back into the garage, now with the rear facing out, and start working on the rear end of the chassis again. Eventually that involves taking the engine out to do a small job on it, including converting it to an electric water pump (I think).

Oh yes, if you wonder why the chassis looks stained it's because of the linseed oil spray I'm using for corrosion protection inside the beams. It "runs" everywhere, including out of all holes (I find that fascinating).

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 16, 2019, 03:19:47 pm
Headlight lifting mechanism works now (click the image to see the video on Flickr or click this link https://flic.kr/p/2gzTuP6):

(https://live.staticflickr.com/31337/48297536067_b8f3ec975e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gzTuP6)

Also, the coolant circuit is replenished with all air removed.

I ran into two minor issues:
  • I had interchanged the vacuum hoses for the actuator, so it lowered the headlights when they were supposed to be lifted and vice versa.
  • There was a small leak by the fan thermostat, and it had to be tightened to seal properly

Apart from that, things worked well :D

There seems to be a minor leak in the vacuum system as it looses vacuum after 30 seconds or so - it used to be able to hold for almost half an hour. Also, I didn't run the engine long enough to see if the the fan would kick in, so I have to double check that, plus connect the override switch properly.

But she is now reversed with the rear facing out. It's time to open a new chapter!  8)

Updated with picture below

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48299190001_1522bfd1df_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gA2Ytc)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on July 16, 2019, 09:19:05 pm
looking great!!!!!


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 17, 2019, 10:07:36 pm
looking great!!!!!

Thanks!


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: roy4matra on July 18, 2019, 07:46:41 pm
Headlight lifting mechanism works now (click the image to see the video on Flickr):
(https://live.staticflickr.com/31337/48297536067_b8f3ec975e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gzTuP6)


There seems to be a minor leak in the vacuum system as it loses vacuum after 30 seconds or so - it used to be able to hold for almost half an hour.



Can I correct you here, and for others reading this as well.  That is not a minor leak if it loses vacuum after only approx. 30 seconds; and if it originally only lasted half an hour that is also unacceptable!

I've said this before but I'll say it again now - the vacuum system should hold for several days at least or even for a week!  I know this partly because when I had my Murena new it would do this.  I could go to my car a week after the last time the engine had been run, yet the head lights would still come up if I switched them on.  That is proof that the system is air tight like it should be.

Anything less is allowing unmetered air into the engine and making it run weaker.  Since a weak mixture causes the engine chambers to run hotter, this needs to be stopped to help prevent cracks to the head.

Roy


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 18, 2019, 09:01:34 pm
Headlight lifting mechanism works now (click the image to see the video on Flickr):
(https://live.staticflickr.com/31337/48297536067_b8f3ec975e_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gzTuP6)


There seems to be a minor leak in the vacuum system as it looses vacuum after 30 seconds or so - it used to be able to hold for almost half an hour.

Can I correct you here, and for others reading this as well.  That is not a minor leak ...

You can indeed, thanks! What I meant, of course, was that it is minor enough for me to want to attend to other things and put the leak on the to-do list, and I frankly could'nt remember how long it lasted when it was air tight.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 27, 2019, 09:56:44 pm
Summer holidays are ending for me. I didn't have too specific plans about what I wanted to complete as I knew that time would be limited - after all, the family must be prioritized when they want to spend time with me :)

But below are some pictures of things I've done since last update:

  • First one showing the rear facing out now
  • The left side rear trailing arm has failed
  • I managed to break both bolts holfing the trailing arm to the chassis loose without cutting them
  • The exhaust is off (thanks to some very rusty bolts, that took some time!), and I have started cleaning the rear underbody of dust, rust, oil residue, and other unwanted substances to prepare for zinc treatment
  • The left hand hub nut is off
  • And the drive shaft is loose, so I'm ready to remove the trailing arm now to get access to the chassis where it is suspended which must be cleaned and zinc treated
  • Using a cutting wire for windscreens, I'm beginning the process of removing the right rear wing. The left will be more difficult as it is still the original glue


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on July 28, 2019, 10:34:07 am
That is a big job. Probarbly the hardest thing I had to do. Took me 3 days to get each one off. They are so easily damaged. I found the hardest part was around the bottom of the window because of the metal plate that sits there. Good luck!


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 28, 2019, 07:26:08 pm
That is a big job. Probarbly the hardest thing I had to do. Took me 3 days to get each one off. They are so easily damaged. I found the hardest part was around the bottom of the window because of the metal plate that sits there. Good luck!

Thank you! I'll be careful and allocate the time it takes. The right hand side is incorrectly fitted after a damage so seems easy, but that side of the car is up against the wall of the garage now so I'm going to attend to the left side first, which seems very tight. I got the left trailing arm off today, however. There is some corrosion in the chassis behind it so I will start brush cleaning that first, then zinc painting.

Also, Politecnic emailed back to me today. They expect to be able to supply new trailing arms end of September. I can always refit the old ole should I need to move the car in the garage.



Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on July 28, 2019, 07:58:44 pm
 Very interstinging ref Politecnic. . Am still.waiting for.my seat covers and they havnt replied to my emails.The swing arm i got from them was very slightly out of line which made it awkward to fit Roy took some photos at the time and I know he wrote to them. I notice you have original cv boots but they still look good. I had to go down the aftermarket type.  You really are making good progress. its taken me years.
Did you have to cut off the swing arm bolts? Also I noticed when you removed the hub bolt you left the borbets ca on! did the socket fit through the centre?


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 28, 2019, 08:49:58 pm
Very interstinging ref Politecnic. . Am still.waiting for.my seat covers and they havnt replied to my emails.The swing arm i got from them was very slightly out of line which made it awkward to fit Roy took some photos at the time and I know he wrote to them. I notice you have original cv boots but they still look good. I had to go down the aftermarket type.  You really are making good progress. its taken me years.
Did you have to cut off the swing arm bolts? Also I noticed when you removed the hub bolt you left the borbets ca on! did the socket fit through the centre?

Thank you... I'm not doing a through job like you and taking a lot of breaks to think and do other things...

Yes, the socket fits through the centre. I had to put the wheels back on to get it off.

Don't forget, in french "A demain" doesn't mean tomorrow ;D

The wheel bearing is gone too (not that it matters, just surprised I didn't notice before):

(https://live.staticflickr.com/31337/48397705136_f0482974d4_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2gJJTA1)
(Click the video to play or click this link: https://flic.kr/p/2gJJTA1)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: roy4matra on August 01, 2019, 07:53:35 pm
Very interesting ref Politecnic.  Am still waiting for my seat covers and they haven't replied to my emails. The swing arm I got from them was very slightly out of line which made it awkward to fit Roy took some photos at the time and I know he wrote to them.

Please let me correct you there, as that is not right, Terry.

Your semi-trailing arm came from Simon Auto in Germany, and I did say at the time that the bracket may be out of correct alignment as I have noted previous ones from both them and Carjoy were incorrect.

The semi-trailing arms sold by Politecnic in France are more expensive but better made both from the point of view of material used and more importantly, they are correct with regard to the design, so all the angles including the bracket for the shock absorber attachments are correct.

Roy


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on August 01, 2019, 09:12:26 pm
Sorry both. I stand  corrected.  Genuine mistake and I  appologise.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 06, 2019, 09:27:01 pm
Terry, did you remove the windows before removing the rear wings? I'm asking because the workshop manual says they should be removed to avoid breaking them, but it seems to me there's just as much chance of breaking them by removing them?


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on August 07, 2019, 08:45:02 am
Morning Anders,
Yes I did, However the adhesive on mine was very weak, I could just push mine and they would move slightly, some of the adhesive had also "over spilled" onto the chassis. They were easy to remove , I just ran a Stanley knife between the glass and frame from the inside, the adhesive seemed to be a different type from that securing the wings on. It also made getting a cutting wire between that particular section of the wing so much easier as their is adhesive under the flat piece under the window and above the metal guard that prevents mud and dirt from being thrown and also around the window frame itself.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on August 07, 2019, 09:06:03 am
In this photo of Donna you can see that the window was bonded to the wing and then the wing bonded to the chassis, It also might give an indication of where all the adhesive was. The most difficult part was around the fuel filler as I couldn't get a wire in there.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 07, 2019, 04:19:12 pm
Thank you, Terry! That's very helpful. I'll give it a go!


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 07, 2019, 05:27:33 pm
Half way through!



Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: murramor on August 08, 2019, 05:50:40 am
Anders.  I took out my windows but the glue was very hard and dry and it took me  \about 8 hours of hard labour!  One thing to beware of is that the vinyl trim in the engine compartment is wrapped around the ledge under the glass.  With all my struggles, I managed to destroy parts of the vinyl trim which are now too short to wrap around the ledge and I am going to have an expensive trim job to look forward to!  You may be lucky and you might have softer glue which comes away more easily.

regards
Ron


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 08, 2019, 04:39:05 pm
Anders.  I took out my windows but the glue was very hard and dry and it took me  \about 8 hours of hard labour!  One thing to beware of is that the vinyl trim in the engine compartment is wrapped around the ledge under the glass.  With all my struggles, I managed to destroy parts of the vinyl trim which are now too short to wrap around the ledge and I am going to have an expensive trim job to look forward to!  You may be lucky and you might have softer glue which comes away more easily.

Thanks a lot for the warning, Ron. I've spent roughly two hours so far on one, and I still have the forward edge to take care of. It seems more difficult than the other three edges. I think alos that's where the vinyl trim could be wrapped under the window, so I don't think/hope I've damaged the vinyl. Thanks again!

/Anders

UPDATE: The vinyl is along the top. It seems ok, but is hanging loose, so may have some damage. I hope it's not too bad. I'll see when the rest of the window is out.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on August 08, 2019, 08:02:18 pm
Looking good. Will be worth it. It is also very easy to do a.re trim with the wings and windowws out of the way .also wih the trim lifted you can check the coil spring mounts.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 09, 2019, 09:23:16 pm
Looking good. Will be worth it. It is also very easy to do a.re trim with the wings and windowws out of the way .also wih the trim lifted you can check the coil spring mounts.

The window is out and everything looks fine :)  I'm also almost halfway down loosening the wing from the chassis... the glue is VERY hard!


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on August 10, 2019, 02:49:35 pm
Fantastic work!!! Think you may find that if their was a slight gap after fixing the wings on Matra used what appeared to be fibre glass resin to fill the gaps. The only place this appeared to be present on mine was at the very back where it curves towards the light fitting. Look after that glass, I did have two spares but someone needed them.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 10, 2019, 06:05:42 pm
Fantastic work!!! Think you may find that if their was a slight gap after fixing the wings on Matra used what appeared to be fibre glass resin to fill the gaps. The only place this appeared to be present on mine was at the very back where it curves towards the light fitting. Look after that glass, I did have two spares but someone needed them.

Thanks!! The glass is sitting calmly in the passenger seat inside the car :)

Thanks for the info about the resin. The glue did not seem flexible at all. I managed to break it using different tools without damaging the wing too much. The cutting wire didn't work well, the glue was just not flexible and thick enough. The wire was cutting into the glass fibre. I found the best tools was a stanley knife to open up where the glue was sitting, and a scraper with a wooden handle which I could pad on with a hammer to cut through the glue.

As can be seen, the glass fibre broke a bit, but it's not as bad as it looks, and the wing needed repair anyway from a dent on the wheel arch.

There's a drain hole under the metal strip where water can escape from the engine room, but moisture tends to collect. As can be seen in the picture, the chassis is not looking too good there.



Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on August 10, 2019, 07:38:47 pm
I dug out my left hand spare wing to see it they placed the adhesive in the same place. This is the original from EOW that had damage around the wheel arch. It suddenly dawned on me that I didn't warn you of the possibility of the extra rivets hidden under the glass at the bottom (second photo). Fortunately you didn't have them! EOW had them but Donna didn't!!!!! so they must have been present on the very early cars. You can also see the different types of adhesive they used. One was like a very hard setting resin the other like putty.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 11, 2019, 07:02:50 am
I dug out my left hand spare wing to see it they placed the adhesive in the same place. This is the original from EOW that had damage around the wheel arch. It suddenly dawned on me that I didn't warn you of the possibility of the extra rivets hidden under the glass at the bottom (second photo). Fortunately you didn't have them! EOW had them but Donna didn't!!!!! so they must have been present on the very early cars. You can also see the different types of adhesive they used. One was like a very hard setting resin the other like putty.

The rivets are interesting as the workshop manual does not mention them either. It looks like there's another small difference between the two wings as your earlier one has an indent in front of the window. I noticed a bulge in the chassis which seems to be useful for aligning the window correctly, but the bulge is further forward than the indent, isn't it?

It's clear that the wings are held onto the chassis by the rivets at the front (inside door frame) and back (under rear bumper), and bonded with the strong resin like glue along the top and rear edges. And that's all. The putty doesn't really bond the wing to the chassis, it's probably just there to absorb vibrations.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 11, 2019, 08:08:38 pm
Not much progress today, partly because Frederik Moes (http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=190) popped by and we talked instead of working :)

But I did some cleaning and rivet removal, and it turned out the chassis directly under the metal strip was severely corroded so I cut out the bad parts with the angle grinder. It dug through like it was butter... I still need to remove some more metal, but this is the greater part. There's a weld job coming up.

Fortunately it doesn't look too difficult to fix as it only requires a straight, rectangular peice of steel - and the rest is good.

This is where moisture escapes the engine room in front of the fuel tank, apparantly a very wet spot.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on August 11, 2019, 10:00:52 pm
Not too bad. I see your swing arm mounts are nice and solid


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on September 19, 2019, 08:58:54 pm
Oh, the smell of linseed oil curing... :)





Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on October 13, 2019, 12:53:38 pm
Finally received the good news from Politecnic that the trailing arms are getting ready, only awaiting epoxy paint and rust treatment. I've been busy the past couple of months, so I haven't had much time to do any real work on the car, but the timing is right as that's changing a bit now. Next week is the "potato holiday" (we used to take the kids out of school and send them into the fields to dig up our potatoes so we'd have something to eat during winter), and I'm taking a few days off with the family - and with myself ;)

I've done some cleaning of the chassis where the rear fender will be fitted and added a third layer of rust treatment around the trailing arm mounting points. It will receive a fourth, and then it'll be done. I'm getting ready to do some grinding, cleaning, and rust protection of the underside of the boot, so I removed and cleaned the ground wire. I thought I had a replacement, but can't find it so I've cleaned the old one, which is also more sturdy than the one I had bought to replace it. It probably wouldn't have survived the engine vibrations.

Happy Sunday!

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on October 17, 2019, 04:52:46 pm
Looking good!
Can't see any rust getting through that for a few years.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on October 18, 2019, 04:55:58 pm
Looking good!
Can't see any rust getting through that for a few years.

Hopefully more than a "few" :D
Thanks :)

Jon came by today for a couple of enjoyable hours with a good chat about Murenas and my project, and we ended up working on the rear hub of the trailing arm which I removed already. We split the bearing, but the inner shell remains with a flange of only 1 mm or less to grip on. The manual prescribes a special tool to be used to get it off. Anyone has advice on a hobby tool that can help here?

/Anders




Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on October 18, 2019, 05:13:22 pm
Dont shoot me but this is how i got mine off.....
I started using an angel grinder on it in different places. I was doing it very carefully and had got about half way but then i noticed it started to move it had got so hot it virtuall fell off.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on October 18, 2019, 07:58:38 pm
Dont shoot me but this is how i got mine off.....
I started using an angel grinder on it in different places. I was doing it very carefully and had got about half way but then i noticed it started to move it had got so hot it virtuall fell off.

Haha - I love that :D A small blow torch should be the better tool then :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: MatraIan on October 18, 2019, 08:16:47 pm
I also had the same problem, on both sides. Similar to Terry but used a Dremel ( bit easier than my full size grinder) with a cutting disc to go most of the way through. Then sharp hit with a mallet on a wide blade flat screwdriver to split it.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: JL on October 18, 2019, 10:32:06 pm
I had to use a 1mm blade on a 115mm dia angle grinder. Cut a diagonal slit deep enough to avid touching the hub, then with a thin cold chisel on the cut give the chisel a sharp blow with a large hammer and the race should split giving enough slack to ease the inner race off the hub.

Good Luck
John


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Jon Weywadt on October 19, 2019, 06:20:17 pm

Haha - I love that :D A small blow torch should be the better tool then :)

I too think that, missing the special tool, a blow torch is the best solution. It does not need to be super hot to let go.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Morne on October 20, 2019, 12:17:59 pm
I had one of these, and it worked a dream to pull this off.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on October 20, 2019, 09:31:39 pm
I had one of these, and it worked a dream to pull this off.

That looks like a nice tool. I've found one on the 'net and has ordered it. Fingers crossed!


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on October 24, 2019, 10:07:36 pm
The new tool arrived today and after half an hour of work, the race came off the hub. The tool is highly recommended. As can be seen, I had to use a 30 mm socket to get the race off the last part. The hub is made so that the race rotates freely on one section. This must be to ensure the bearing is held together by the driveshaft, and not the hub. But there's still a 1 mm wide section where the puller is needed.

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on October 25, 2019, 09:00:57 pm
Brake cleaner, wire brushing (avoiding the rubber for both), WD40 (for the rubber), and some paper towel did it. I now have a clean LH driveshaft. It just needs a fresh O ring on the gearbox side and perhaps some bright zinc paint on the outside CV joint to keep it pretty. The hub nut will be replaced eventually too, of course.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: matramurena on October 25, 2019, 10:01:05 pm
Looking good!


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on October 25, 2019, 10:30:15 pm
Thyat puller looks great. Take it your going to use it to press the new one on?  Does the book state the pressure required to refit?


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on October 26, 2019, 06:29:10 am
Thyat puller looks great. Take it your going to use it to press the new one on?  Does the book state the pressure required to refit?

I don't think it can be used for reassembly as the claws don't seem not wide enough to fit over the hub flange. The book instructions says to fit the disc on the hub first and with the bearing shell already fitted in the trailing arm, the whole assembly is then then pulled together using a tool made out of a threaded rod with a pair of large (35-40mm?) washers on each end (nuts too, of course). The book is in the car while I'm sitting comfortably in my living room trying to ignore to the cold and windy weather outside, so this is just out of my memory :) First job, though, when I get the new trailing arms from Politecnic,  will be to have the bearings and bushes fitted in the trailing arms. That will require a hydraulic press and pressing tools, so I'll be seeking professional assistance for that. I might bring the hub assembly there too.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Oetker on October 29, 2019, 10:00:20 am
Been a while since I looked here.
You make good prgress and worked hard.
It's necessary to do after 40 years.
I'm still dayly driving my 1.6 and every month something falls off or need attention.
It keeps me busy and of the street.

Top job, keep up the good work


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on November 02, 2019, 08:30:10 am
Top job, keep up the good work

Thank you Herman! :D

The trailing arms are delayed from painting, Politecnic informed me, hopefully I'll receive them next week. No progress 'till then :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on November 21, 2019, 07:29:24 am
These pieces of art arrived yesterday!


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on December 07, 2019, 04:34:53 pm
Left side trialing arm temporarily fitted. The old trailing arm was 2-3 mm narrower than the new ones. It was clear that the chassis was bent inwards due to this, so I had to push it back in correct shape before fitting the new one. Next step is to fit the drive shaft, hub, brake disc, caliper, handbrake cable, wheel, and get the car back on the floor so I can move it over and start replacing the right side trailing arm, removing the fender, etc, and take the engine out to do the cam chain cover. I'm progressing slowly because it's cold and dark most of the day, so not so much fun working in the garage now :)

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on December 14, 2019, 07:47:09 am
I looks good? Well the job is not yet done as I ran out of tools last night. I don't have a 32 mm wrench in my collection. That's now on today's shopping list :)

The good news is that the hub and disc is soon fitted in the bearing and once I have the brake caliper back on, I can refit the wheels, move the car over to the left side of the garage, and start working on the right hand trailing arm :)

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Oetker on December 14, 2019, 10:05:53 am
The trailingarm looks very good.
Is this a new one or refurbished?
It's difficult working with little space at the sides.
How is your back  ;D


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on December 14, 2019, 07:57:10 pm
The trailingarm looks very good.
Is this a new one or refurbished?
It's difficult working with little space at the sides.
How is your back  ;D

Haha, yes, that's true. My back is good, though. As an office worker, I need to care for it :)

They are new from Politecnic. Beautifully made! They don't manufacture the hub, though, so I need to send that back from the old ones.

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: matramurena on December 14, 2019, 09:53:54 pm
Looking good!


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on January 11, 2020, 09:42:06 pm
Is there a better way to spend a Saturday evening than in the garage tinkering with the car? I don't think so! :D

I lowered the car down on its wheels on a pair of dolleys a few days ago so I could push it over to the side. I can still make my way around the car on the left. This way I have enough space to work on the right side. Both bolts came out easily once the nuts had been knocked loose and removed. The old trailing arm looks ok, by the way, but it will be good to have two identical and new, good ones on the car. On this side, by the way, the mounting points have not been modified (as expected).

Next up is removing the hub and disc, and returning both old arms to Politecnic. Then pulling off the race from the hub, clean the hub, fit hub and disc on the new traling arm, brush clean the chassis around the mounting points, zinc paint and rust protect it, fit the new trailing arm, and get the car back on the wheel ald dolly so I can start working the right hand rear wing :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on January 12, 2020, 09:18:20 pm
Jusr two hrs work then. Lol. My work has ground to a halt. I dont do cold! Cant wait cor the sun to come out.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on January 22, 2020, 09:55:59 pm
Jusr two hrs work then. Lol. My work has ground to a halt. I dont do cold! Cant wait cor the sun to come out.

The cold is indeed... cold :D

I dressed warm this weekend and tonight and made some progress. The old trailing arms are now on their way back to Politecnic. The outboard mounting point needed a bit of expansion on this side too, but the new trailing arm is now a good and tight fit. I'm now cleaning the mounting points of years of dirt, getting them ready for zinc painting and rust protection. It generally looks good with only a little surface rust in some places, but nothing serious. It just needs to be brushed down and zinc painted.

Once I'm done with the mounting points, the hub and disc just need to be pressed into the bearing, and the new trailing arm fitted.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on January 23, 2020, 04:30:24 pm
I see no snow on the ground!!!!! Please excuse my ignorance, When I treated my chassis I was (at times) careful not to disturb the zinc plating and only cleaned and then over painted with several coats! although a little late, should I have completely cleaned of all the plating?  and treated the bare metal?
Also if you get a chance can you post a picture of the top door rubbers (where the window slides down into the door?), I cant get mine to sit correctly. When the window goes down they appear to come out so I am thinking I am fitting them incorrectly, (maybe upside down). :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on January 23, 2020, 04:55:30 pm
I see no snow on the ground!!!!! Please excuse my ignorance, When I treated my chassis I was (at times) careful not to disturb the zinc plating and only cleaned and then over painted with several coats! although a little late, should I have completely cleaned of all the plating?  and treated the bare metal?
Also if you get a chance can you post a picture of the top door rubbers (where the window slides down into the door?), I cant get mine to sit correctly. When the window goes down they appear to come out so I am thinking I am fitting them incorrectly, (maybe upside down). :)

Snow... what's that?!!! Denmark may be Nordic, but we haven't had temperatures below 0 all winter this year! :(
Good for my working, though.

I don't think you've done anything wrong if you're coating on top of the metal to create a barrier for oxidation. The Zinga paint involves a renewed cold-galvanization process, so I'm not afraid of brushing (or even sandblasting, but I don't do that) a bit of zinc off the steel plate. Remember that warm galvanization is not just a coating, but involves a chemical reaction between the zinc and the iron that penetrates many μm into the metal. Spraying high percentage zinc paint on top starts a slow galvanization process in which a similar process happens. In short, the zinc ions like to tie themselves to the iron atoms, and oxidizes well before the iron, so as long as there are free zinc ions, rust will not happen.

Actually i NEED to brush it well down before applying the zinc paint, as corroded zinc need to be removed: It's the white salty stuff we see, and its made up of zinc-oxides, is quite hard, and effecively forms a barrier between any applied zinc paint and the iron underneath, thus preventing the regalvanization.

On top of all that, I apply rust protection to create a soft, oily/waxy corrosion barrier.

I'll check the windows next time I'm there and post some photos :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on January 25, 2020, 04:46:27 pm
Sorry, Terry - I forgot to take pictures of the door rubber for you. Next time!

But here's a dramatic super wide angle picture of the underside of car after I've worked for an hour or so today. The support in front of the enigne can be seen in the bottom of the picture, now clean (the engine has leaked oil on it :)

Otherwise I'm concentrating on the mounting points, getting the car back on the wheels and then on removing the wing and working on the chassis under that.




Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on February 09, 2020, 06:47:18 pm
Nice going Anders. At the speed.you are.progressing you will fi ished brcore me! No problem about the photos will be going to the NEC March so will take some there.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on February 15, 2020, 08:46:43 am
Nice going Anders. At the speed.you are.progressing you will fi ished brcore me! No problem about the photos will be going to the NEC March so will take some there.

Thanks - and I forgot to take pictures again. But sounds like a good idea going to NEC and looking there - and have a conversation about it!

I had the joy of assembling something yesterday. Spring is coming and it was nice last evening (the rain from yesterdays storms in the north atlantic are here today)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on February 15, 2020, 03:39:41 pm
Looks like one of those times you could do with an assistant!


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on February 15, 2020, 09:17:06 pm
Looks like one of those times you could do with an assistant!

That part wasn't too bad, actually. I got myself one of these https://www.biltema.dk/bil---mc/bilvarktoj/chassisvarktoj/hjullejevarktoj/varktojssat-til-forhjulslejer-2000021491 and with the long wrench against the floor, the hub and bearing came together slowly but rather easily. Fitting the trailing arm is a bit more difficult alone - I'm not quite done yet :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on February 16, 2020, 09:51:39 am
Oh yes, I remeber that! Trying to keep the drive shaft in  the wheel bearing whilst  wiggling the other end into the mounting to get the bolts lined up with the rubber bushes. I needed three hands.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 13, 2020, 04:36:06 pm
Spring is here and with that time and inclination to go work in the garage. I've completed a few things since last time:

  • RH trailing arm fitted
  • RH wheel refitted
  • RH rear wing removed

Any problems? Oh yeah, and it was quite unexpected. The rear wing got off with less than an hour's work. Ok, I had done some work on it later, but it seems to have been replaced some time early in the life of the car and it wasn't fitted quite as hard as the LH side one. And the chassis underneath looks perfect (unlike the LH side, which still needs some repair).

The problem I have is with the trailing arms. Simon is known to sell incorrect trailing arms with with top brackets from the 1.6 welded on for the shocks. The 2.2 bracket is different because the shock absorber is tilted slightly inwards at the top to accomodate the larger engine. I "knew" the Politecnic would be correct, so I didn't suspect a problem with mine, but they're wrong too. The result was that getting it on was a really tough job. As can be seen, unfitted, the shaft of the shock absorber is offset outwards by about 3 cm. I managed to press it in and fit it, but the rubber bushes are now compressed. This is far from ideal so I'm going to write a complaint to Politecnic about this. And of course, I'm annoyed I didn't check this before fitting them.

The LH side was for some reason less of a struggle to fit than the RH side, but checking it, I see it's wrong too.

This may be a manufacturing problem with mine only, but a word of warning needs to be raised here: As Roy has mentioned earlier, the trailing arms from Simon have been found to be incorrect - and now the trailing arms from Politecnic might be too!

(Yes, my shocks need new paint and the new bolt is too long... I'll come back to that.)

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: roy4matra on April 14, 2020, 12:38:08 am
Spring is here and with that time and inclination to go work in the garage. I've completed a few things since last time:

  • RH trailing arm fitted
  • RH wheel refitted
  • RH rear wing removed

Any problems? Oh yeah, and it was quite unexpected. The rear wing got off with less than an hour's work. Ok, I had done some work on it later, but it seems to have been replaced some time early in the life of the car and it wasn't fitted quite as hard as the LH side one. And the chassis underneath looks perfect (unlike the LH side, which still needs some repair).

The problem I have is with the trailing arms. Simon is known to sell incorrect trailing arms with with top brackets from the 1.6 welded on for the shocks...

I'm not sure where you obtained this information, or maybe you have mis-interpreted what I have said in the past, but as far as I am aware, the 2.2 semi-trailing arms from Simon do not have 'brackets from the 1.6 welded on'.  The brackets are simply welded on at the wrong angle.  They are in fact welded on parallel to the side of the arm when they should be welded on at 9 degrees so that they are in approx. alignment with the angled shock absorber.  In fact, even the 1.6 shock absorbers are at a similar angle, and the brackets on the 1.6 semi-trailing arms should also be welded on at an angle - probably the same angle, because the original semi-trailing arms were a different design and should have been designed to take into account the 20cm different rear tracking between the two models.  I've never had any original 1.6 rear arms to be able to verify this, but if Matra designed them correctly, this is what should have been the case.

Quote
The 2.2 bracket is different because the shock absorber is tilted slightly inwards at the top to accomodate the larger engine...

This is slightly mis-leading.  Both the 1.6 and 2.2 have rear shock absorbers coming down at an angle.  This has little to do with accomodating a larger engine.  It is simply good suspension design, combined with the wider rear track designed for the more powerful 2.2 model to allow for higher cornering speeds.  You rarely have this type of suspension with a vertical McPherson strut.  The strut should be angled so the line from top to ground meets the ground at the tyre contact area.

Quote
I "knew" the Politecnic would be correct, so I didn't suspect a problem with mine, but they're wrong too. The result was that getting it on was a really tough job. As can be seen, unfitted, the shaft of the shock absorber is offset outwards by about 3 cm. I managed to press it in and fit it, but the rubber bushes are now compressed. This is far from ideal so I'm going to write a complaint to Politecnic about this. And of course, I'm annoyed I didn't check this before fitting them.

The LH side was for some reason less of a struggle to fit than the RH side, but checking it, I see it's wrong too.

This may be a manufacturing problem with mine only, but a word of warning needs to be raised here: As Roy has mentioned earlier, the trailing arms from Simon have been found to be incorrect - and now the trailing arms from Politecnic might be too!

(Yes, my shocks need new paint and the new bolt is too long... I'll come back to that.)

/Anders


Whilst I can't dispute you've had a problem with the rear suspension assembly Anders, I have a couple of observations to make if I may.  I am not exactly clear from your description, so if I am wrong please correct me.

From your photo where the top of the shock absorber is not aligned with the hole in the chassis and the coil spring is also out of place, it seems you have attached the bottom of your shock absorber to the trailing arm before fitting the top into the chassis, is that correct?  Also I cannot see any coil spring clamps.  That is not the correct assembly sequence.  The coil spring must be clamped first and the top of the rod should be fitted in the chassis hole and secured, and then the spring clamps removed.  The semi-trailing arm is then lifted to fit the lower bush into the bracket on the arm.

Now even with an original car, undamaged, as my silver car has always been, when you lift the arm up, the lower bush and shock absorber eye do not naturally align perfectly and the shock absorber eye needs to be pulled into position.  Second, the new Politecnic arms are covered in quite a thick protective coating unlike the thin coat of paint on the original, and this will reduce the gap for the bush, so unless you removed the coating back to the metal it would need more effort to get the bush to go in, but that is normal.  Even the original is a tight fit.  It is meant to be.  Also since your lower bush does not look like it is new, and therefore has been fitted in a different arm for years, it will have become 'set' for that other arm, which will more than likely cause a slight difficulty when fitting it to the new arm.

Finally, in your particular case the shock absorber is not a standard original one, but is a Koni after-market unit, and could possibly be slightly different to an original.  I'm not saying it is, just that there could be slight differences and you only need a tiny difference to make something more difficult to fit.

One more thing.  These shock absorber brackets have changed design slightly since the arms have been remade.  They are now shorter with a larger hole at the bottom.  This has been done to stop one of the original design faults - namely the wedge shaped pocket caused by the angled brackets, used to fill with dirt which got wet and slowly corroded the metal.  By shortening the bracket, the 'bottom' of the angled bracket is much more open and means the dirt should simply fall through and if it can no longer stays in between the bracket and arm, it cannot cause the corrosion.  However, these shortened brackets, since they are not original, may be incorrect but it is important they are still welded at the correct angle.

Roy


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 14, 2020, 06:05:45 pm
Hi Roy

Thanks very much for your comments and clarifications. I agree to your points, of course, and apologize my mistakes. I'll try to answer below.

I base my *assumption* that a bracket from the 1.6 has been fitted based on measurements of the bracket. The new bracket is different from the old one in being shorter and open in the botoom which should prevent corrosion, but the bracket on my new trailing arms are also different in the measurements. Speciifically, I measure a width on the top back side of the old one of 18 mm, while the new one measures to about 10 mm (difficult to measure as it's now been fitted on the car). The old one tapers in to 12 mm on the middle of the inside of the trailing arm, while the new one is about 10 mm all the way down. In other words, the new one fits at the same angle as the inside panel of the trailing arm, while the old one is tapered. I haven't checked the measurements, but the new trailing arm and the old one seems to have exactly the same dimensions otherwise.

I've taken some photos showing the old bracket below.

About the shocks. These are the same Koni dampers my car has run with when you had it. I had them professionally refurbished 9 years ago. I can only assume they're correct.

There was indeed a spring compressor fitted on the spring in the picture, though it's not visible. I bought mine while I had my Phase 1 Espace where there is no room on the top of the spring, so it extends downwards when compressing, unlike most other screw type compressors.

I agree that the correct way to fit the shock to the trailing arm is to do the bolt. It was impossible to push the bolt in place. I managed to fit the it only by doing the job "incorrectly".

Best,
Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: roy4matra on April 16, 2020, 12:04:07 am
Hi Roy

Thanks very much for your comments and clarifications. I agree to your points, of course, and apologize my mistakes. I'll try to answer below.

I base my *assumption* that a bracket from the 1.6 has been fitted based on measurements of the bracket. The new bracket is different from the old one in being shorter and open in the botoom which should prevent corrosion, but the bracket on my new trailing arms are also different in the measurements. Speciifically, I measure a width on the top back side of the old one of 18 mm, while the new one measures to about 10 mm (difficult to measure as it's now been fitted on the car). The old one tapers in to 12 mm on the middle of the inside of the trailing arm, while the new one is about 10 mm all the way down. In other words, the new one fits at the same angle as the inside panel of the trailing arm, while the old one is tapered. I haven't checked the measurements, but the new trailing arm and the old one seems to have exactly the same dimensions otherwise.

I've taken some photos showing the old bracket below.

About the shocks. These are the same Koni dampers my car has run with when you had it. I had them professionally refurbished 9 years ago. I can only assume they're correct.

There was indeed a spring compressor fitted on the spring in the picture, though it's not visible. I bought mine while I had my Phase 1 Espace where there is no room on the top of the spring, so it extends downwards when compressing, unlike most other screw type compressors.

I agree that the correct way to fit the shock to the trailing arm is to do the bolt. It was impossible to push the bolt in place. I managed to fit the it only by doing the job "incorrectly".

Best,
Anders

Now I've seen your latest photo of the new arm, Anders, you are indeed correct as that bracket appears now to be parallel to the side of the arm which is wrong.  It should be angled like the old one.  The fact that is shorter is not a problem as long as it is angled, and as I said previously the shorter one has the open space at the bottom so the dirt drops through and you don't get that area filled where is will get wet and cause corrosion, and although this a modification to the original bracket it is sensible and better.

I understand your difficulty in fitting the shock absorber, but it is strange that the bracket is not welded at the correct angle as I have photos here from an earlier Politecnic semi-trailing arm that shows they were being welded on at an angle. (see photo)  I wonder why these are not?  I would certainly write to Politecnic to complain and and show them the photos showing how they are wrong.  We need them to change back to have them correct.

As we have someone here in the UK with an arm on order at the moment this is even more urgent.

Thanks.

Roy


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 19, 2020, 08:33:15 pm
I understand your difficulty in fitting the shock absorber, but it is strange that the bracket is not welded at the correct angle as I have photos here from an earlier Politecnic semi-trailing arm that shows they were being welded on at an angle. (see photo)  I wonder why these are not?  I would certainly write to Politecnic to complain and and show them the photos showing how they are wrong.  We need them to change back to have them correct.

Thanks Roy. I'll keep you updated on their response. I agree, at least we should make sure future ones will be correct!

My next job is taking the engine out. I've never done it before, but I know it's not complicated. However, I can't fit a crane in my garage so I've thought about how to do it. I'm considering buying an engine bar like the one in the picture below. The workshop manual describes a similar tool for suspending the engine while removing the gearbox on the 2.2 (pictured too). My idea is using the bar and the handles on it to carefully lower the engine to the ground. This is my plan:

  • With the front on the wheels, I will put the rear on axle stands
  • I'll remove the trailing arms, hub nuts (they're still loose) and remove the trailing arms again
  • Remove: Carburettors (at least the airbox), throttle cable, air filter, cooling hoses, electrics unplugged, battery plus, ignition coil, clutch slave cylinder
  • Drive shafts will be removed
  • (I've previosly removed the front brace under the engine, and the gear change rod)

I then plan to suspend the engine with the bar and undo the right side engine mount. I have oil seeping out, and it looks like it might be the sump gasket. I have a spare, which I'll fit.

With the sump back, I'll then undo the two other engine mounts, lower the car as far as possible with two jacks (one either side), then using the bar and the handles, lower the engine the last bit until it sits on the floor supported by wooden blocks, and on a peice of board so I can pull it out the back if necessary.

I plan to then lift the chassis back up as high as possible and put it back on stands. I should then have access to do the jobs I need to do:

  • Renew the cam chain cover gasket
  • Work on cleaning the engine and engine room from oil sludge
  • Inspect the tank straps
  • Whatever might show up

Any thoughts on this?

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: MatraIan on April 19, 2020, 09:17:04 pm
Hi Anders.
With help from Roy to get my 2.2 engine out We lowered the car and sat the engine On the sump on a small wheeled trolley only 4.5cm high. Then lifted the car up.
I seem to recall I had the front wheels off and on axle stands to get it tipped up lower at the front so the back didnt need lifting as high. It still has to go up very high.
Take the dipstick out so you dont break it as you drag the engine out from underneath. !!
Ian.
No doubt Roy will reply soon with a few tips.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 19, 2020, 09:56:44 pm
Thanks, Ian!

Take the dipstick out so you dont break it as you drag the engine out from underneath. !!

Sounds like you removed the valve cover to get more clearance? I think I can do my work with the engine on the floor, still in the engine room. Do you remember how you realigned it?

4.5 cm is very little... Wheels like these are 30 mm diameter, but can only carry 20 kg, so will need 8-10 on an 8 or 10 mm plywood board :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: roy4matra on April 19, 2020, 11:17:26 pm
I understand your difficulty in fitting the shock absorber, but it is strange that the bracket is not welded at the correct angle as I have photos here from an earlier Politecnic semi-trailing arm that shows they were being welded on at an angle. (see photo)  I wonder why these are not?  I would certainly write to Politecnic to complain and and show them the photos showing how they are wrong.  We need them to change back to have them correct.

Thanks Roy. I'll keep you updated on their response. I agree, at least we should make sure future ones will be correct!

I'm going to write to Cyril on a general basis because I know their arm has changed and they don't seem to realise it has, but I have proof.  They have told someone else that theirs is definitely correct and no one has ever complained before, so it will be good to know at least one person has!  I really don't understand why no one is complaining that these brackets are at the wrong angle.

Quote
My next job is taking the engine out. I've never done it before, but I know it's not complicated. However, I can't fit a crane in my garage so I've thought about how to do it. I'm considering buying an engine bar like the one in the picture below. The workshop manual describes a similar tool for suspending the engine while removing the gearbox on the 2.2 (pictured too). My idea is using the bar and the handles on it to carefully lower the engine to the ground.

Whilst this is certainly one way and it can work Anders, there is an even easier way, and you don't have to buy any tool!  The first time I took a powertrain (i.e. combined engine and transaxle) out, I used my engine crane and it did work, but it will only work for a Murena without a rear spoiler.  The first time I had a Murena with a rear spoiler the crane was no longer good enough as the rear was too high for it.  So I made a tool (similar to that professional one) by buying a length of square tube and drilling three holes through it at certain points, and I also bought two long threaded rods which I had one end of each bent to form hooks.  But the lengths have to be such that you have to remove the rear glass 'tailgate'.  Then you can put the rods through the tube, attach chains or cables to the powertrain, and after removing all that is needed, you then lower the engine to the floor and lift the rear of the body/chassis high enough, put it on stands so the powertrain can be slid out from underneath.

However, since then I have worked out an even better idea that means you don't need to buy or make any tool, nor remove the glass.  [now updated, as I had forgotten a couple of things!]

You remove all that is necessary as is normal, and when all you have left is the two cross mountings bolts and the stabiliser bar, you lower the rear of the car until it is virtually on the floor.  Now you need a piece of wood to brace the engine to the forward bulkhead and remove the stabiliser link.  Next remove the two cross bolts, one at a time, and lower the sump that final inch onto the floor or your low support panel or trolley.  Please note down the number of large spacer washers and how many each side of the engine and gearbox mountings, so you know for when refitting.  The powertrain will now be sitting quite stable on the floor.  Finally you jack the rear of the car back up high enough so you can slide the powertrain out from underneath. (and as Andrew has said you can remove the rear gear change pivot bracket which is only 4 bolts, to give you more clearance)  I have done it with the engine sitting on a large piece of hardboard which will slide on the floor, but in Ian's case he had a large piece wood with four 'wheels' so we could roll it out.  The 'wheels' were actually small old roller bearings fastened to the sides of the wood, which is why it was so low and ideal for the job!

If you plan to remove the sump with the engine suspended above you, please, please remember to remove the oil level sensor first before you undo any sump bolts!  If you attempt to lower the sump with the sensor still in place, you will damage it, and they have not been available for many years.

Quote
I plan to then lift the chassis back up as high as possible and put it back on stands. I should then have access to do the jobs I need to do...

Any thoughts on this?

Anders

As I stated above it is right to lift the car high, but if you leave the powertrain under the car and attempt to work on it there, it will take more effort, and it will be much easier if you bring it out from underneath and then work on it comfortably.  Once you have finished, you do the reverse and slide it back underneath, lower the car back almost to the floor, if necessary lever up one end slightly to insert the cross bolt through that mounting, then do the same on the opposite side, and attach the stabiliser.  Now you can raise the car back to a comfortable height and place the chassis back on stands.  Now you can finish putting the rest back.

I have done this now quite a number of times and it really is the easiest way if you don't have access to garage type facilities.

A couple more points...  When you undo the sump there are 24 bolts in total, 22 x 7mm ones and 2 x 10mm, so make sure you have them ALL out.  There are two at the rear by the flywheel that are recessed and often get missed.

If you intend to remove the lower timing case without taking the top one off I think you will be in trouble.  The head gasket is trapped between the two parts of the timing case and there are two vertical bolts fastening them together.  Both the upper and lower timing cases are doweled on to the block and head. (the dowels are dowel sleeves with a bolt through them)  So if you manage to get the lower timing case off, you risk damaging the head gasket joint between them.  And fitting it back will be difficult too.

Before you lower the powertrain, make sure you remove the alternator otherwise it gets in the way.

And no, it is not necessary to remove the cam cover.  It is prudent to remove the fuel pump and distributor as these stick up and are vulnerable.  I only broke the top of the dipstick as the loop got bent over and I tried to bend it back, but it broke instead.  And this was not whilst pulling the powertrain out from underneath, it was whilst we were undoing and removing things at the top of the engine.

That wheel you have in your posting is much too big. :)

Roy


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Matraman on April 20, 2020, 09:00:03 am
Having just done engine removal and refitting recently, the other part I would remove is the rear gear change pivot, which is one less thing to steer the engine round as you slide it in and out. It's the one which is attached to the rear of the engine bay and is just 4 simple nuts and bolts. I only removed mine after the engine was back in, because I was fitting a new ball he socket joint to it, I realised then it would have saved me a few more centimetres of car lifting.

I happened to have a hydraulic bike lift,which is on wheels and has 2 parallel platforms which lower down to 10 cm above the ground. It can support the engine and gearbox and it raises up to about 50  cm. They are about 150 new, but you might find one on eBay for less.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 22, 2020, 07:29:42 am
Thanks a lot, both. I've started the process!

Roy, I will try without lifting tools - it seems quite doable.

I've pushed the car forward in the garage so I can have the engine sitting behind it and still close the garage door. With all the body panels removed, I have a little more space to access than otherwise.

I'm going to put the powertrain down on a plywood board and roll it out on wooden rods. I worked for about two hours yesterday evening until the sun set, and I'm still only working on the carburettors. The airbox is my own design, welded up beautifully by Frederik Moes, and while it has worked excellently since I coverted to the DCOE's, it's obviously not practical from a servicing point of view, so I'm thinking of fitting something better.

Best,
Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on April 22, 2020, 06:05:29 pm
Can I have your engine please? Never seen one so clean!


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 22, 2020, 07:10:27 pm
Can I have your engine please? Never seen one so clean!

The one in Roy's photo? Absolutely not - it's not mine :D

(but it sure looks splendid!)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: MatraIan on April 23, 2020, 11:44:06 am
Hi All
That engine/gearbox is mine.
I was upgrading to one of the new Piper cams, but the engine hadn't run for a while, and it was a mess to start with. More oil on the outside than in i think!!
Got some pics somewhere of the state it was in when removed.
Roy came up to help dismantle. I cleaned the block and head with degreaser and sent them both for an utrasonic clean, before painting and rebuilding. Roy rebuilt and it was fitted with new piston rings, new main and big end bearing.
Gearbox was degreased then water bead blasted.
It was stripped and rebuilt with new synchro rings, replacent 3rd/4th gear hub ring, and new input shaft bearing.
After it was reassembled and in the car, i decided i would like the higher 5th gear ratio upgrade so sourced the parts and Roy fiited it. This can done whilst in the car fortunately. I do have enough extra parts for another set but bear in mind the selector fork and casing need grinding down slightly.
It's not quite as clean now, its getting dusty whilst i am working on rest of the car.
Ian


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 25, 2020, 08:23:15 am
Hi all,

Just a quick note to add that I've received a very positive and helpful reply from Politecnic and will be double checking the trailing arms this weekend. They replied very quickly - unfortunately, I've been less quick to reply back - but that's entirely on my part (unlike some, my worklife is actually quite busy during the crisis)!

Happy weekend, y'all!  ;)

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 25, 2020, 09:38:18 pm
I removed the carburettors today. It doesn't seem necessary only to take the engine out, but it's just much easier to access things from above when they're off, and they had to be taken off anyway. Next up is disconnecting cabling and water. I will be removing all the cabling as I'll be preparing the wiring loom for the electric water pump installation anyway. I'll also remove the trailing arms tomorrow to check them against Politecnic's specifications.

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 26, 2020, 05:43:02 pm
I didn't get much time to attend to the car today, but what I had I used under the rear end removing the gear change pivot and the exhaust manifold. Interestingly (in an unpleasant way) it revealed a problem with one of the cylinders clearly leaking oil into the exhaust. I'm thinking either a piston ring problem or (more likely?) a valve stem seal. I'm going to do a compression check on the engine while it's still in the car, hopefully that will provide some input for a diagnosis. Any comments or suggestions?

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on April 26, 2020, 07:59:12 pm
Never seen a 2.2 engine. Doesnt look much room in there. Couldnt you just  crack on and do a compression check once removed or do you  need to remove.too many ancillaries ?


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 27, 2020, 08:08:06 am
Never seen a 2.2 engine. Doesnt look much room in there. Couldnt you just  crack on and do a compression check once removed or do you  need to remove.too many ancillaries ?

I probably could, but it would require some sort of suspension of the engine to avoid the risk of things turning around and getting caught. I think it's easier and safer to do it now that the engine is still in the car. It is a tight fit, especially since it's tilted towards the rear so the plugs are somewhat out of view from above, but it's not too difficult, especially not now that the exhaust manifold is gone (but getting those eight nuts off involved a good deal of arm twisting ;D )


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 27, 2020, 07:34:58 pm
Hi all, I did the compression check this afternoon. Thanks to my son Jens for being patient while I struggled fitting the manometer to the plug hole. All four cylinders peak at 10,3 - 10,5 Bar after three turns, the wet one perhaps a little higher, which would make sense if there's oil leaking into cylinder. Plugs look the same, all three a little oily. I have a miniature camera that I will be able to use to look into the cylinders once the enigine is out.

My phone messed up the first video, but here are the other three, counted from the left:

Cylinder 2: https://www.flickr.com/gp/adinsen/Qcx543
Cylinder 3: https://flic.kr/p/2iV1orT
Cylinder 4: https://www.flickr.com/gp/adinsen/Scy88b

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 28, 2020, 10:00:25 pm
I made a little progress this evening as I removed the wiring loom and distributor.

As Roy noted below, the wiring loom only needs to be disconnected by the green connector on the right side of the engine room and can be left on the engine. However, years ago I fitted an alarm with various custom wiring, which I'll now remove. Instead, I'll make some new custom wiring for the electric water pump installation. So I found it easier to take it off the engine now.

Next steps are removing the generator, draining coolant, and disconnecting all the water hoses, disconnecting the oil level sensor, double checking everything, lowering the car, removing the trailing arms, and then I'll hopefully be ready to unfasten the engine mount bolts and lower the combined engine and transmission onto the ground :)

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on April 29, 2020, 06:51:19 pm
looking good. Are you going to blast and coat the engine bay whilst the engine is out?


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 29, 2020, 09:17:10 pm
looking good. Are you going to blast and coat the engine bay whilst the engine is out?

I'll brush some areas and coat those, but most of it looks good.

A few "done's" tonight:

- Some water hoses released and water drained
- Oil level sensor disconnected

This evenings' picture isn't that interesting, but I thought I'd show you something :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on April 30, 2020, 09:36:37 am
yes............your garage floor needs cleaning lol


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on April 30, 2020, 09:41:56 pm
yes............your garage floor needs cleaning lol

It does.... it's a bit of a mess down there :)

Things are getting serious now:

* Alternator removed
* Water pipes and hoses removed
* Thermostat housing off

So I'm getting VERY close to beginning the actual removal. Just need to get the trailing arms and drive shafts off.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on May 01, 2020, 08:15:07 pm
Very messy. Queation. On the rear ( the black bit in your photo) the diagonal pressing is obviously to give strength to the flat sheet. I puzzled over mine for ages trying to figure out what the vertical  "lump" was for and couldnt work it out! Any ideas?


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 01, 2020, 09:40:07 pm
Very messy. Queation. On the rear ( the black bit in your photo) the diagonal pressing is obviously to give strength to the flat sheet. I puzzled over mine for ages trying to figure out what the vertical  "lump" was for and couldnt work it out! Any ideas?

Everything is in complete order... in my mind!! ;D

Oh, that lump yes, that's where the wiring for lamps goes, I think. There's a connector sitting there.

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on May 02, 2020, 11:32:54 am
Ah yes. Mine had just been "jerry rigged" with spliced wires and connectors. Prob why i couldnt figure it out.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 02, 2020, 11:47:22 am
Ah yes. Mine had just been "jerry rigged" with spliced wires and connectors. Prob why i couldnt figure it out.

Makes sense! The wiring is going under the trunk up through a hole in the bottom of the air vent channel and then through another hole in the back of the trunk floor right under the bulge. The connector is square shaped and sized so it could pass through the holes during manufacturing with the rubber grommets then being pressed into the holes.

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 03, 2020, 12:39:12 pm
Getting closer...

The semi trailing arms are now both off, along with the driveshafts. The only part missing now is the clutch slave cylinder. I have trouble removing the circlip lock ring - it keeps jumping back in place before I can lift it off. My lock ring pliers are probably not correct size.

I think I've spotted the source of the oil leak. It seems to be coming from the level sensor and where the dipstick enters the block (the O-ring isn't sealing). I won't be doing the sump gasket yet, therefore.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on May 03, 2020, 03:09:54 pm
Or...the  circlip is the wrong way around!?


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 03, 2020, 05:20:39 pm
Or...the  circlip is the wrong way around!?

I fitted it myself years back, so that's impossible.... oh wait... dang!!! :D


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 03, 2020, 08:13:41 pm
I checked my records... I replaced the clutch cylinder in February 2008. My diary notes mention getting the old one out was easy, and fitting the new one wasn't too bad either.

However, the lock ring *was* fitted the wrong way. Stupid me. And I wonder if I forgot to grease the cylinder before fitting it? I probably did. It's completely stuck now. Heat?

The working position is less comfortable than the selfie indicates, by the way.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on May 04, 2020, 06:04:32 pm
Photo made me laugh. Wouldnt heat damage the internal seals?  May have to  bite the bullet and undo the pipe.or if all.else fails cut it. As.you may know i am replacing my slave and have got some new 7mm pipe and the pipe inserts. The little.rubber seal can be purchased on a role. Problem is its from China!!!!!.so I have left that!!!! Or is it that it has to be removed in situ?


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 04, 2020, 06:29:19 pm
Photo made me laugh. Wouldnt heat damage the internal seals?  May have to  bite the bullet and undo the pipe.or if all.else fails cut it. As.you may know i am replacing my slave and have got some new 7mm pipe and the pipe inserts. The little.rubber seal can be purchased on a role. Problem is its from China!!!!!.so I have left that!!!! Or is it that it has to be removed in situ?

:)

Unlike yours, the slave cylinder on the 2.2 is not bolted on the engine block but held in an aluminum cylinder on the clutch housing on the gearbox. The photo show mine when it was new 12 years ago. As you can see it can be greased on the outside without touching the seal. I could undo the pipe, and wil, if all else fails. I've been generous with penetrating oil and some light beating with a hammer on the housing cylinder. Also some depressions of the pedal. I hope it will eventually make it out.

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on May 04, 2020, 06:43:27 pm
Yes, bit of a difference! Think the one I have is the same as a 1.6 Murena, but mine is a 1.9 pug engine with gearbox code XU 30. I had to do a lot of searching to find the correct one for the gearbox mounting, but it does have a listing for a Murena 1.6 as well. I think I have enough pipe lol. Going to be the cleanest part of the car!


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on May 04, 2020, 06:49:50 pm
could you not wedge a socket or other tool behind the clutch actuating arm so as to fill the gap where the arm moves? then all of the hydraulic pressure when you operate the clutch pedal will move the cylinder. (not sure it I've explained that right) I know what I mean lol


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 04, 2020, 08:20:28 pm
could you not wedge a socket or other tool behind the clutch actuating arm so as to fill the gap where the arm moves? then all of the hydraulic pressure when you operate the clutch pedal will move the cylinder. (not sure it I've explained that right) I know what I mean lol

Haha - I think I get your idea. It's worth trying :)

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Matraman on May 06, 2020, 08:58:34 am
I sympathise with your clutch slave problem. Removing mine was one of the most difficult parts of the renovation so far, and I had the engine and gearbox out of the car! The inside of the slave cylinder had corroded so it had to come out. I ended up with the bell housing on the work bench with the clutch slave overhanging the edge. I removed the circlip and piston and put as large a socket as possible inside the cylinder then attached a short extension to that. I heated the outside of the support casting as hot as I dared then hit the end of the socket extension with a lump hammer. I was dreading breaking the casting but this was the only way I could get the slave cylinder to move. I tried everything else I could think of before arriving at this final solution, but no amount of penetrating fluid, clamps, twisting or gentle tapping would work. If I could have just done a refurbishment with new deals I would have done, but the inside (and outside) of the cylinder were too corroded.

Needless to say, the new slave has plenty of grease on the outside! Good luck with yours, it may not be as bad, mine had been in place for well over 20 years, unlike yours. Could you just renew the seals instead of removing the cylinder?


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 06, 2020, 09:01:30 pm
I sympathise with your clutch slave problem. Removing mine was one of the most difficult parts of the renovation so far, and I had the engine and gearbox out of the car! The inside of the slave cylinder had corroded so it had to come out. I ended up with the bell housing on the work bench with the clutch slave overhanging the edge. I removed the circlip and piston and put as large a socket as possible inside the cylinder then attached a short extension to that. I heated the outside of the support casting as hot as I dared then hit the end of the socket extension with a lump hammer. I was dreading breaking the casting but this was the only way I could get the slave cylinder to move. I tried everything else I could think of before arriving at this final solution, but no amount of penetrating fluid, clamps, twisting or gentle tapping would work. If I could have just done a refurbishment with new deals I would have done, but the inside (and outside) of the cylinder were too corroded.

Needless to say, the new slave has plenty of grease on the outside! Good luck with yours, it may not be as bad, mine had been in place for well over 20 years, unlike yours. Could you just renew the seals instead of removing the cylinder?

I think your sympathy helped - it's out! Ok, it may be the penetrating oil, light beating, twisting, and time. But you guys helped keep me hopful and creative!  

So I realized today I was actually able to the cylinder it a bit in the housing, and I was able to wiggle it out. I had already yesterday got it pushed around 1 mm inwards. The idea of wedgeing something in and trying to let it push itself out didn't work.

Actually the cylinder and the seals inside is perfect.

The only reason I wanted to remove it was that I stick to a principle of not draining the brake fluid. It's no big deal, actually, as Roy converted my car to silicone brake fluid before I bought it from him, and that's much easier to work with for a hobby mechanic, but so far I've managed to neither touch the brakes nor clutch cylinders during my restoration project :)

Things are getting serious now. The garage floor is broomed and there's now nothing else to remove on the engine, except the bolts through the three engine mounts, of course!

I' not sure why, but I'm pretty excited :)

I need three wooden rods so I can roll the engine out on a think board of plywood. I have the plywood board, but not the rods, so I need to go shopping tomorrow.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on May 06, 2020, 09:58:00 pm
Fantastic. It is very satisfying when you get a step nearer your goal.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Matraman on May 06, 2020, 09:59:02 pm
Well done and good luck with the final engine removal !


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 08, 2020, 02:53:48 pm
Today is a holiday here, so I've spent some quality time with the Murena. It took a few hours work, a coffee break..., and the enigne came out! It looks good, doesn't it? Details will follow later, including a timelapse video of the process :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 08, 2020, 05:41:29 pm
Here's the promised timelapse video. t's quickly made and there are a few cuts in the video so some details are left out, like getting the bolts out of the top and right hand engine mounts, but I hope it gives an idea of what the job involves. Just click the black picture below and you'll be taken to Flickr.

I'm using an engine dolly made by Jesper Kobbernagel. The engine sits at little higher than I planned on it, but thanks to the wheels then engine can be pushed to the side and doesn't have to be dragged under the console for the gear change. A wonderful moment was when the engine leaned to stand on the dolly. It's a simple but very efficient tool!

(https://live.staticflickr.com/31337/49870031346_bfaa20f8c1_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iYQWSE)
Matra Murena engine removal timelapse (https://flic.kr/p/2iYQWSE) by Anders Dinsen (https://www.flickr.com/photos/adinsen/), on Flickr


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 08, 2020, 05:46:18 pm
Finally, here's a picture of a happy Matra owner :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on May 08, 2020, 08:33:47 pm
Great job on the video. You made it look so easy.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 08, 2020, 11:07:44 pm
Great job on the video. You made it look so easy.

I know! In a way it *is* an easy job, but since it's my first time and the powertrain is really heavy, I had a constant anxiety about things that could go wrong: The engine could tip over, the car could drop on top. I'm trying to always think ahead when working on the car to keep myself and the car safe. Working with a heavy powertrain like this requires care. But with a little diligence, Roy's good instructions and Jesper's dolly things worked out just fine :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: roy4matra on May 09, 2020, 08:14:31 pm
Great job on the video. You made it look so easy.

I know! In a way it *is* an easy job, but since it's my first time and the powertrain is really heavy, I had a constant anxiety about things that could go wrong: The engine could tip over, the car could drop on top. I'm trying to always think ahead when working on the car to keep myself and the car safe. Working with a heavy powertrain like this requires care. But with a little diligence, Roy's good instructions and Jesper's dolly things worked out just fine :)


Well done Anders.  As you say it is fairly easy once you have experienced one, and the great thing is you don't need a crane or a hydraulic garage type lift.  It won't work for a 1.6 though as the base is not flat like the 2.2 sump, so the powertrain wants to fall over.

Next you need a Polybush kit for the stabiliser link. :)

Roy


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 10, 2020, 08:04:58 am
Well done Anders.  As you say it is fairly easy once you have experienced one, and the great thing is you don't need a crane or a hydraulic garage type lift.  It won't work for a 1.6 though as the base is not flat like the 2.2 sump, so the powertrain wants to fall over.

Thanks Roy! In hindsight, the worst part of the job is actually the fear of something falling and getting damaged. It's a heavy machine! But it's safe :)

Below is a picture of the dolly Jesper has designed - here shown in the back of my Espace in which it fits like a glove ;)

The engine actually doesn't sit on the sump bottom, but on the edges of it, i.e the boltheads into the block. It's a very stable ensemble. Only problem with it is that with the engine on it bends slightly in the middle, so it's not as easy to push around as the rotating wheels might indicate.

Quote
Next you need a Polybush kit for the stabiliser link. :)

Of course I do! First I have a few small jobs that will keep me busy:

* clean engine and gearbox
* get the crank pulley off
* remove cam chain housing
* fit a blanked off water pump housing (Jesper is helping having one made)
* get it all screwed together
* renew valve seals

And then the engine room needs cleaning, etc, etc :)

Best
Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 14, 2020, 08:47:43 pm
it's been a work-busy week, but I have moved on a little on the EWP (electrical water pump) installation as I received the booster pump and a straight connector for the main pump. Also, I've done some work on the actual installation of the pump in the front behind the radiator. Pictures will come.

Jesper is helping me make a plug to seal off a blank water pump housing (picture). The housing will require some metal working on the inside to clear away the edges as the pump impeller will be gone and the inside of the pump housing is designed to channel the water around the impeller. That should be removed or it will limit the water flow.

I'm thinking about how to make a tool out of peices of 3 mm aluminum for blocking the flywheel if I fnd I can't remove the crank shaft nut without blocking the crank. But perhaps it would be easier to just take the gearbox off. I did remove the lower bolt before taking the engine out, so will be possible even with the engine sitting on the dolly. Hmm.

Also, I will be replacing valve seals and has been looking for a good toolset to do the job with. This looks useful: https://www.ebay.de/itm/Druckluft-Ventilschaftdichtung-Ventil-Federspanner-Werkzeug-Satz-Ventilfeder-Set/202821300161

Although the actual procedure is different on the 2.2 heads from what's shown here, this video illustrates how a similar toolset is used: https://youtu.be/4xep4wfpd3k

Thinking, thinking :)

But it's all mostly procrastination from where I really need to turn my attention: Cleaning the engine and then the engine room. However, I've run out of spray degreaser...

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on May 15, 2020, 08:28:56 am
Not sure about your milage, but if I had the engine out of mine I would replace clutch components as well, and splitting the engine is something that even I could do and will prob save time in the long run


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 15, 2020, 04:13:07 pm
Not sure about your milage, but if I had the engine out of mine I would replace clutch components as well, and splitting the engine is something that even I could do and will prob save time in the long run

You may have a point there, and taking that gearbox off is probably less of a job than making that tool anyway. Also, it might be a good idea at least to inspect the clutch. I never had problems with it, so I expect it will run a while more. On a longer route, my plan is to build a new engine. I have a well prepared cylinder head which would fit a newly built engine with lightened flywheel and a fresh clutch anyway, and as that project is not on the menu now, I planned not to split the engine from the gearbox. I'll reconsider - thanks for thinking!

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: roy4matra on May 20, 2020, 09:10:05 am

... First I have a few small jobs that will keep me busy:

* clean engine and gearbox
* get the crank pulley off
* remove cam chain housing
* fit a blanked off water pump housing (Jesper is helping having one made)
* get it all screwed together
* renew valve seals

And then the engine room needs cleaning, etc, etc :)

Best
Anders

There are a couple of things I should point out here Anders, and to anyone else in this situation.

Getting the crank nut off now the engine is out is quite easy, as long as you have access to an impact wrench (air or electric).  Remember first to unlock the lock-tab washer.  The impact wrench and the rapid rotational hammer effect it has will undo the nut without having to worry about locking the crankshaft, as the whole thing - crank, rods, pistons etc. is too heavy and has too much friction to move and the nut simply spins off.

As for the reasons to remove the nut and the crank pulley, for anyone else reading this, if it was just to replace the timing case seal, you should do that with the timing case still bolted on!  However if like Anders you wish to remove the timing case too, there are points you should note.  First the timing case is in two parts, upper and lower, and these are not only bolted to the block but there are two bolts bolting them together at the cylinder head face joint.  They are also fitted onto small dowel sleeves, which some of the bolts pass through, that lock them exactly in place so they cannot move up, down or side ways and have to come off directly away from the block.

Now this next item is important.  These timing cases were not designed to be taken off or refitted with the cylinder head or sump still fitted.

(22nd May update on next paragraph as I forgot to include the sump gasket)

The cylinder head gasket is between the upper and lower timing case, so if the head is still bolted securely on, then the clamping force on that gasket is the same as that on the head to cylinder block!  And at the bottom if the sump is still fitted you have the problem of that gasket which is much more delicate.  So these are the problems.  If you undo all the timing case bolts and try to pull either the upper or lower timing case away from the head or block, they are both stuck securely to that bit of the head gasket and have a high force against each side of it.  And that force on the lower timing case is transmitted to the lower face where it will be very tight against the sump gasket, which being cork, is a lot more delicate than the head gasket.  Whilst it is fitted and bolted, the dowel sleeves will hold the timing case in place, but as soon as you try to remove that timing case, and if you managed to get it away from the block to come off the dowel sleeves, it will tear the sump gasket owing to the force downwards from the upper timing case and head gasket.  If you managed to get one of the covers off without damaging that bit of the head gasket that will quite a feat in itself, but there is no way you will not break the sump gasket, unless the sump is off and you have already separated it from the lower timing case.  When you then try to refit that cover (let's say it is the bottom one) you would have to push it hard up against that head gasket before the dowel sleeve holes would align with the dowel sleeves to allow you to tap the cover into place, and it would not only have to try to compress that bit of the head gasket but also slide against both that and the sump gasket to go back into place against the block!  Even getting enough pressure against the gasket to align the holes and dowel sleeves will be extremely difficult, and you may find impossible.  So think about this carefully before deciding what you do next.

Finally, if you do leave the head on and therefore need to replace the valve seals with the top still bolted in place, all the different types of tools for replacing the valve seals have one fundamental problem.  They rely on compressing the valve spring, without the valve moving down.  This is so the top retainer can free the locking collets which you can then remove to take the spring off and replace the seal.  But you will find, as I have and I have done quite a number of these engines now so have some experience of this, that the collets and top retainer will be locked by the taper and pressure over time and they will be very difficult to separate, so every time you try to compress the spring, the valve will move down too.  You have to stop it moving to break the seal between the retainer and collets.

I have found that even with the head on a bench and something solid under the valve head to stop it moving, it can take quite some sharp force to 'unlock' them.  When the head is in place, getting something solid under a valve head through the plug hole is very difficult at the least!  Also it has to have the piston at top dead centre to give it something solid to react against.  So whatever you use has to be such that it is not going to damage the top of the pistons which are only alloy.  Some of these tools are designed to use the spark plug hole and air pressure blown into the cylinder to hold the valve in place.  This is laughable and I can tell you now that simply will not work with these!  The air even under pressure is weaker and will simply compress and the valve will move down, and the instant the valve lifts off its seat the air pressure drops away.

On Colin's engine we could only get some support under the inlet valve heads which are directly across from the plug holes, and managed to change all the inlet valve seals (which are the ones most likely to cause problems as it happens) but there was simply no way we could get under the exhaust valve heads as they are alongside the plug hole and you need to get something through the plug holes but then at about 90 degrees to them.

So as you have the engine out now, and all the work that this involves, it really makes much more sense to remove the cylinder head as well and do all the necessary jobs properly.  All the jobs are much easier with the engine out, and they will be completed with much less hassle, and without having to try to make things to do some of these jobs simply because you didn't want to take those extra few things apart.  You will spend more time trying to do the jobs than if you did take it apart.  So think about it carefully now before you start.

Roy


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 24, 2020, 06:49:11 am
I already thanked you, Roy, on e-mail, but would like to thank you again. Your post has given me several things to think of. I talked to Jesper and he confirmed that he has been successful removing the covers separately, but carefully reading and rereading your advice has made me rethink the plan. Why take the risk of doing an improper job instead of doing the job right from the start? My wife, when I mentioned your advice, said something like "Yes, that's exactly like knitting, it's better to do things right from the start!" :)

As my workshop is currently shed for bikes and a lot of stuff, I need to first move some things around to prepare it to accept the engine. Also, It sounds like now is the right time to get an impact wrench. Also, if I split the head off the engine, I will of course fit the polished one i had made years ago, and have the flywheel prepared. Will I be happier with that? You're right, I will, of course!

The powertrain is now as clean as I wanted it. I can now again read the "MATRA" label cast into the differential housing on the gearbox, and see that the gearbox is either cast from two different alloys, or one is eloxated and the other is not. I've mandaged to push the drivetrain to the side of the garage and will cover it with plastic so I can start the dusty work on the engine room. Things look good there, but by experience from the front, some surface rust usually shows up once I start working on it. You'll notice I still have two hoses attached to the pipes under the car. The clamps have given up so I need to grind or file them off to release hoses.

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 24, 2020, 02:28:40 pm
Sometimes it's the little things.... A neighbor was giving away this old toolbox. The bottom was all rusty, so I brushed it down and gave it a coat of zinc, which should keep it ok for a while. Hence the wooden blocks. This one is both much more practical and looks better in the garage :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on May 31, 2020, 10:15:41 pm
I'm not making that much progress on the car these days.

I did finish the EWP installation at the front as I received the correct straight connector for the pump. Note that the ends of the pipe connecting to the pump needs to be cut as short as possible to avoid having the pump touching the battery tub. Note also that it's slightly rotated with the motor at the bottom. This ensures the ceramic seal between the pump impeller and the motor is always kept wet when the pump is running and is as per Davies Craig's instructions.

I've spent the last couple of days cleaning out my shed and converting it into a proper workshop so I can work there on the cylinder head(s).

/Anders



Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on June 01, 2020, 06:21:32 pm
Is the beer in the blue cabinet?


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 01, 2020, 09:59:15 pm
Is the beer in the blue cabinet?

Come and check!! ;D


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 05, 2020, 09:04:16 pm
I've started the work on cleaning the engine room. It's as slow a process as in the front, except there are more brackets and difficult-to-access little spaces in the engine room. In other words: Hard work. As can be seen in the picture, there's some surface corrosion, but nothing serious. The horizontal chassis plate on the left in the picture is all rusty on the surface. However, no deep corrosion, so I will just brush it down to the metal and cold-galvanize it.

I can't work on the engine room all of the time, so I have found the starter I bought on eBay years ago. I didn't realize then that it wasn't for the 2.2, but it looks like the only difference between them is the aluminum casting which is bolted on the engine. So I'm thinking of renovating the old one using bits from the new. The only problem seems to be removing the pin around which the release mechanism pivots. It's pushed into the aluminum casting. I haven't found much info about renovating these Paris-Rhone starters, but they look simple so I'd like to hear if anyone has experience with this.

Best,
Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 06, 2020, 08:32:48 am
Update on the starter motor, I have checked the parts manual and realized it has an exploded view of the different starter motor types with all parts identified. The 2.2 and 1.6 Paris-Rhone specifies different drives (the part with cogs and bearing that engages in the flywheel). Before proceeding further, I'll check the differences.

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 07, 2020, 05:21:41 pm
So some parts of the engine room are very exposed to wet road dirt and tend to rot. Most of it is well protected by the heat from the exhaust and the black sticky substance which it has been covered with. The top picture shows the flat panel under the right side of the engine. It looks worse than it is, but there's obviously very little zinc left there, so something needs to be done. The problem here is really access, it's just not easy and some sections look outright impossible to clean. If all else fails, I will be treating it with chemical rust converter and protect it in the traditional way. The lower picture is the right side of the engine room. I'm making slow but steady progress :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 19, 2020, 10:26:40 pm
The Murena 2.2. alternators are Paris-Rhone A13R10. It's a rare 55A alternator which is not available any more so I started looking at the old alternator to restore it. It was very dirty, but worked.

But the problems started quickly as one of the terminal bolts broke when I was screwing off the nut on it. The broken bolt was an insulated one so I've repaced it with a bolt with an insulating peice of plastic and a normal screw covered with two peices of shrink tube (bottom picture showing).

The regulator needs new brushes. These are readily available and seems to be fairly common.

However, yesterday I found that the back cover is cracked around where it's screwed together. There are two similar cracks, one is shown. I'm not sure what to do about that.

I'm researching alternatives and so far have found that alternators for Clio I 1.2 and 1.4 liter models seem to have the similar dimensions on the front mounting points. They're originally Paris Rhone A13N157 and look similar to the A13N10 for the Murena 2.2, except it has a rear mounting point. These are available on eBay as Hella 8EL 011 710-961 for example. Experiences with alternative parts here will be welcomed!

Best,
Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on June 20, 2020, 08:07:43 am
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TALBOT-TAGORA-2-1-1980-1983-SALOON-RMFD-ALTERNATOR-12-MONTH-WARRANTY/283130878947?hash=item41ebea5be3:g:FZwAAOSwUKxYgxq1


Morninh Anders.
I used the cross refernce numbers on Roys website and it came up with this!


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 20, 2020, 08:23:26 am
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TALBOT-TAGORA-2-1-1980-1983-SALOON-RMFD-ALTERNATOR-12-MONTH-WARRANTY/283130878947?hash=item41ebea5be3:g:FZwAAOSwUKxYgxq1


Morninh Anders.
I used the cross refernce numbers on Roys website and it came up with this!

Wow, thanks! Interestingly that one also has a rear mounting point. Also they list several equivalent Paris Rhone / VALEO numbers: A13M7, A13M8, A13N10, A13R176. The Talbot number 0043214800 is an exact match according to my Matra Magic parts manual :)

I think I'll give that one a go. I still think the other alternator would work, though. I used to have a Clio 1.4S and checked its repair manual. From a picture there it looks like it has a longer axle and a wider spacer between the pulley and the fan than ours, but the spacer and pulley from the old one can be moved over.

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 20, 2020, 06:40:23 pm
I got a shipping quote on the remanufatured one Terry. 60 + 160 for the alternator. That's 220 in total. I can get a factory new Hella alternator for the Clio for 910 DKK including shipping, which is the equivalent of 110.

I've stripped the old one with the intention of restoring it. I'm going to continue that as all components besides the rear cover, brushes, and the terminal bolt are good. The rear cover is probably ok, but I'll put a clamp around it to ensure it doesn't accidentially split.

As for the missing components I've found two possible sources:

A specialty shop for alternator components in Germany https://www.technikline.com
The Bulgarian company Mona: https://moneashop.com (search for "IP702" and the terminal bolt shows up - the picture below is taken from their site)

So Plan A is to bring the old one back to life.

Plan B is Simon Auto - apart from Matra and Alpine parts, he specializes in starters and generators. So he might be able to help with the parts. Also, he has a Murena 2.2 alternator remanufactured available for 190 EUR, a little cheaper than the eBay one, and shipping is cheaper from Germany to here.

Plan C is to research a bit more on the alternator for the Clio to get its actual dimensions. Having an alternative which is readily availble, and even as new would be great for us :)

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: MatraIan on June 20, 2020, 06:51:21 pm
Hello Anders
Tokk me a while to find it but i knew i had seen something about alternatives for alternator repair. Check this thread.
http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php/topic,1080.0.html
Might help
Regards
Ian


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on June 20, 2020, 07:15:15 pm
Och.... could.drive it over for less! Think matraian has the right link sorted.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 20, 2020, 08:42:19 pm
Och.... could.drive it over for less! Think matraian has the right link sorted.

That sunds like a great plan - I would be looking forward to having you here :D

Hello Anders
Tokk me a while to find it but i knew i had seen something about alternatives for alternator repair. Check this thread.
http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php/topic,1080.0.html
Might help
Regards
Ian

Thank you Ian - Only 12 years ago. How could I forget that thread ;D

I did some research looking for the Peugeot alternator Herman refers to. I could'nt get an exact match and unfortunately Herman didn't mention the parts number back then. So for now I'm probably sticking to the Clio alternator. But the idea about moving over the front with the mounting from the old one is great.

Herman mentions cutting the extra wire to the regulator. That's perfectly possible as iti' only there for the diagnostic connector, which most of us have little or no use for. I have removed it from my engine wiring loom. The "B" connection simply transmits the power transmitted into the rotor coil and makes it available at the connector. If you connect an oscilloscope, you'll be able to see the alternator working.

I've attached the diagram from my Tagora manual below. The darlington transistor Q2 is fully conducting until the power reaches 14V. This is monitored by the voltage divider R1 and R2, zener diode CR1 and Q1. When the voltage reaches 14V, Q1 opens and this draws the base of Q2 down causing it to cut off. No current will then flow in the rotor coil. It's a very simple regulator that will ensure the rotor coil is always powered by pulses just long enough to keep the voltage over the battery at 14V. All modern alternators work like this, although I think the designers have switched to MOSFET transistors instead of the bipolar darlington power transistors that this late 1970's circuit features.

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on June 20, 2020, 10:25:50 pm
Oh I love it when you get technical lol.
Way out of my league. But my matra.runs a 405 1.9 engine .
Where the hell did you.learn all this stuff?


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 21, 2020, 07:23:05 am
Oh I love it when you get technical lol.
Way out of my league. But my matra.runs a 405 1.9 engine .
Where the hell did you.learn all this stuff?

:D

I went 6.5 years to engineering university. I even earned a degree ;) Also, I played a lot with cars and transistors during my childhood - I'm still playing, except they're bigger now :)

1.9, I'll check that. It may be too much to ask, but if you get under the car, could you take a picture of your alternator? ;)

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on June 21, 2020, 09:07:05 am
No problem. Will be  fitting new oil filter later so will gry to get some. Its not that easy to get too. So not sjre how they will.come out


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on June 21, 2020, 01:00:12 pm
best I could get, had to remove the carb to get anywhere near it! if you think it could be of any use I can remove and photograph.
Just delete when done.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on June 21, 2020, 01:01:22 pm
last


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 22, 2020, 08:00:56 pm
Thanks so much Terry! It's very kind of you to spend time taking these photos! Your alternator actually looks very different from the Paris Rhone and the regulator says BOSCH. The distance between pulley and fan looks about the same as the Murena 2.2 alternator. The mounting points also look very different, although we can't see the bottom one here. The Murena 2.2. alternator is fixed to the engine at the bottom with adjustment happening on the top - this one looks like it's fixed on the top mount and adjustments take place on the lower mount.

Still something to think about!

Best,
Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on June 22, 2020, 09:34:31 pm
Yes you're corrent Anders. It pivots at the top. The adjuster is by swinging the bottom out.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 22, 2020, 09:56:37 pm
Thanks Terry. So it's obviously not the Peuogeot 1.9 alternator we need :)

While I'm thinking about alternators, I might as well work in the engine room :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on June 22, 2020, 11:58:02 pm
Unless you can provide 142hp you dont belong in there!
Shame they're out of stock, but other fitments!


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 23, 2020, 08:10:30 am
Unless you can provide 142hp you dont belong in there!
Shame they're out of stock, but other fitments!

Haha, well SHE (the lady with 142 hp) has volunteerede to let me lend her room considering the work I'm doing there. She's watching me work - and she looks happy :)

It is indeed a shame that they're not available :)

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: roy4matra on June 23, 2020, 05:37:32 pm
Unless you can provide 142hp you dont belong in there!
Shame they're out of stock, but other fitments!

Haha, well SHE (the lady with 142 hp) has volunteerede to let me lend her room considering the work I'm doing there. She's watching me work - and she looks happy :)

It is indeed a shame that they're not available :)

/Anders

Wood Autos here in the U.K. used to be able to supply an 80 amp version of the A13N10 Paris-Rhone but I see they are showing out of stock at the moment.  But that may be because they don't have any to overhaul.  Have you checked with them if they have the parts to overhaul one?

https://www.woodauto.com/bom/50138/VALEO-A13N10

Or maybe you could buy the parts from them to do an overhaul yourself?

Roy


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 27, 2020, 08:15:27 am
Or maybe you could buy the parts from them to do an overhaul yourself?

Thanks for the link to Wood Auto's bill of materials for the 10N13, Roy! I will indeed do my own overhaul.

I've researched the Clio 13N157 alternator a bit more and finds that while it is very similar (it even has the same two pin regulator), the front cover is mirrored compared to the 13N10 and misses an indent.

Changing the mount to fit the Clio alternator is possible in theory, but requires different parts and brackets. If I couldn't get parts for the alternator, I would probably have modifed a 13N157 using the front cover from the old 13N10, but since both Wood in the UK and Technikline in Germany has the parts I need except one, I'll be enjoying going ahead doing my own overhaul.

The only part I need which they're both missing from their lists is the terminal bolt and a new back cover. I'll be contacting both of them about that. If the back cover is not available, I'll have the cracks welded.

Meanwhile I'll continue working on the engine room. I'm making slow but good progress there, and not finding too many surprises. A major next step is removing the fuel tank to get access to the chassis parts hidden behind it.

Best,
Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: JL on June 28, 2020, 12:42:47 am
Hi Anders

I have used Lumiweld to repair aluminium castings in the past, only a blowlamp and cleanliness required.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPfb5eSY9yo

There are a number of different manufacturers but I have found that Lumiweld works for me.

Regards
John


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 29, 2020, 07:32:10 am
Hi John

Thanks for those pointers and for reminding me about lumiweld and similar products. I haven't tried it and looks like I will need to do some experimentation first to learn the process, but it sure looks doable.

Best,
Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 04, 2020, 06:48:46 am
A little update about starter motors.

I took my 1.6 and 2.2 starter motors apart yesterday to inspect them. Getting the pin around which the fork pivots out is the only difficult part of the job, but with a correct size punch and the starter firmly supported on the table with some cardboard peices it gave in. The 2.2 starter is a little longer than the one from the 1.6, and although the internals are identical, the axle is similarly longer on the 2.2. This should be visible in the top picture. Everything else, apart from the aluminum front part of course, is the same.

After a little polishing, the commutator on the old one were as good as new. The brushes were also in a similarly good state, but I chose to use the parts from the new 1.6-starter.

Next step is testing it on the engine, and then perhaps eventually taking it apart again to have the aluminum front frame glass blasted along with other aluminum parts.

/Anders

PS: I'm still working on emptying the tank using my electrical fuel pump. I'm doing it in steps of 5 litres as that's the size of my can, and filling it on the Espace. I regret not having bought a 20 litre can before starting.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 04, 2020, 03:15:14 pm
I bought a 20 l can today and emptied the tank. I have filled my 5 l spare twice (poured it on the Espace) and now the new one is more than half full. So there was more than 20 l in the tank. That surprised me. Anyway, now it's all empty.

I used the fuel pumpt to start the drailing, and then leaving the fuel to run out by itself. It's a bad idea to drain it into smaller containers as it's difficult to stop the flow so there will be fuel flowing onto the floor. Luckily it vaporizes quickly...

Getting the fuel tank out of the car was surprisingly difficult, but now it's out. I took a quick look just now, and things are not looking too bad. There are some rusty areas that will need to be dealt with, though, so I will be stripping it all down to the metal. I expect to remove the brake line running behind the tank to ensure I can give the chassis behind a proper treatment.

/Anders


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on July 04, 2020, 06:50:00 pm
so thats where the brake pipes go! When i replaced mine they were held up with cable ties. I threaded mine through the chassis but on the other side of the bulk head thats behind the tank.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 04, 2020, 08:30:49 pm
so thats where the brake pipes go! When i replaced mine they were held up with cable ties. I threaded mine through the chassis but on the other side of the bulk head thats behind the tank.

Yes!, the one from the limiting valve to the LH rear caliper runs behind the tank :)


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: TELBOY on July 04, 2020, 08:47:15 pm
When i replaced mine i wasnt sure and no one could tell me. The old one was just held with cable ties onto the chassis so i threaded mine through the chassis and mounted brake clips. It looks so neat that I convinced myself that was how it should be.


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 04, 2020, 09:05:57 pm
When i replaced mine i wasnt sure and no one could tell me. The old one was just held with cable ties onto the chassis so i threaded mine through the chassis and mounted brake clips. It looks so neat that I convinced myself that was how it should be.

Sounds perfect! :D


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Murenanimal on July 09, 2020, 06:26:56 pm
I bought a 20 l can today and emptied the tank. I have filled my 5 l spare twice (poured it on the Espace) and now the new one is more than half full. So there was more than 20 l in the tank. That surprised me. Anyway, now it's all empty.

/Anders
The tank floater can lie about the real content of the tank if it is bend and not anymore in the original curve, or if the floating piece has some liquid absorbed in the years and is not empty itself which causes it to sink deeper and giving on the fuelmeter the idea there is less fuel in the tank than in reality. (Anyway, the second situation is the case with mine.)
Guido


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: roy4matra on July 10, 2020, 06:59:18 pm

The tank floater can lie about the real content of the tank if it is bend and not anymore in the original curve, or if the floating piece has some liquid absorbed in the years and is not empty itself which causes it to sink deeper and giving on the fuelmeter the idea there is less fuel in the tank than in reality. (Anyway, the second situation is the case with mine.)
Guido


The original fuel tank sender and tank could never show the true amount of fuel in the tank because the top of the tank has a much wider and larger cross section than the lower part, but the sender rheostat is linear.

So the fuel will drop slowly when it is still in the larger top section than when it is in the lower narrow section.  This has all been explained in my technical article on the fuel system which has been on my website in the technical article section for some years.

I stated that if you were on a long jouney with a full tank, you might get 340 kms whilst the gauge dropped slowly for the first 'half' but then only get 200 kms during the second 'half' from half way to almost empty.  This is due to this linear sender but irregular shaped tank.

The other problem is that all the Murena I have ever come across have a sender that has the float too high at it's minimum, so it gives you a false early warning that you are almost out of fuel.  I have reset all the senders in the Murena I have owned so they are more accurate in telling you when you are almost out of fuel, and do not give that flashing low fuel warning light, much too early.  Consequently I can get as much as 550 kms safely on a full tank before I need to refill with fuel even at my fast pace, and have done so many times.  When driven at no more than legal speed limits in the U.K. and France I have actually achieved 700 kms once or twice.  This is with a 2.2 Murena with a Holbay cam and 140 bhp!

Anyway, please download my technical article (if you haven't already) on the fuel tank and system to find out more.  It might surprise you.

If you really want the fuel gauge to give you a more accurate reading all the way from full to empty, then there is an electronic device you can fit and set up so it will be accurate at full, 3/4 full, 1/2 full, 1/4 full and empty.  Contact me (at my domain email not here) if you wish to know more.

Roy


Title: Re: Getting ready for the road again
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 08, 2020, 05:32:49 am
Hi all, it's been a while since I posted. Sorry for that! I've completed a few items over summer and made some good progress:

  • Brush cleaning of the engine room is almost done. I still have some work to do cleaning the inside of the right side bracket on top of the mounting points for the rear semi-trailing arms where a lot of road dirt has collected and I have corrosion problems (pictures later), but that's all
  • Brush cleaning of the right wheel arch and surface under the wing is in progress. There is quite a bit of white ZnO build up which I'm finding difficult to remove, but I'm slowly making progress. While red rust is obviously worse in itself, it's tolerable applying the Zinga paint. Zinkoxides blocks the regalvanisation process so should be removed as much a possible.
  • I removed the shocks and springs and has started cleaning and painting them.
  • I removed the two brake lines in the engine room and under the wheel arches in order to gain access to certain areas. Unfortunately I coulnd't undo the nut on the RH rear brake line where it joins the brake hose so had to cut that and therefore now need to make a new one.
  • The rear brake calipers have been sent to Roy who has checked and refurbished them. Roy may update here on the good state of them despite the fact that it's almost 30 years ago they were refurbished (by him) last time.
  • Ordered valve seals for both cylinder heads
  • Did some cleaning of my spare cylinder head
  • Tested the renovated starter successfully
  • Painted the fuel tank straps
  • Borrowed an engine crane from my neighbor, removed the gearbox from the engine and moved the engine to my workshop

Here's a little video of the starter test: https://www.flickr.com/gp/adinsen/e3G85T

/Anders