MatraSport Forum

Hi!

First post so I'll also do a bit about me I guess. I'm Daniel from the Netherlands and I recently bought a 1.6 in quite decent state as far as I can judge. I love driving it in any case. Don't know the first thing about car mechanics (I can change a tire and an exhaust pipe on cars like a Citroen AX and that's more or less the extent of my current skills) and I'm really keen to get into it so I can do some basic maintenance.

So a few days ago I started hearing a knocking sound while braking and took the car to a garage. The mechanic had a quick look and couldn't find anything wrong with the brakes but he did find that one of the front bearings was knackered. He didn't have anything in stock that would fit so I ordered some online. Now they also mentioned that replacing it would be quite a bit of hours (I don't know if they where joking or not) because it is a press fit bearing or something? I don't know the exact term but supposedly you'd need a machine to pull the bearing out and put a new one in.

So here are a few questions that I hope someone can help with.
Is this indeed the case? Where is the bearing pressed into? Is it indeed something that would take a few hours to fix? Can I remove the part that holds the bearing myself and bring that to the garage so they only have to switch the bearing?

Any help appreciated!
Dan

Hi Daniel

Welcome to the forum and congratulations on your Murena! Great to hear about you and your car.

The front wheel bearings are indeed pressed into the uprights. The uprights are connected to the lower and upper suspension arms. The way to replace them is usually to take the uprights off the car and push the old bearing out and press the new one in using a hydraulic press. This is somewhat more complicated than on most cars due to the torsion bar suspension on the front that is connected to the lower suspension arm and which needs to be secured while working on the upright. Also, the car could then need a wheel alignment as it will be difficult to do without distorting the tracking of the front wheels a little bit. Two hours of work does not sound unreasonable to me.

However there is an alternative way that requires a special tool, but should work just as well. It's simply a wheel bearing removal tool that comes with a spindle and a set of cups and dishes that can be used to push the old bearing out and press the new one in. Provided the joints are fine and doesn't need replacement anyway, it could save some work.

I have this one myself: https://www.biltema.dk/bil---mc/bilvarktoj/chassisvarktoj/hjullejevarktoj/varktojssat-til-forhjulslejer-2000021491

Note that the brake discs on the Murena are mounted on the inside of the hub so it may be a good idea to replace them and the brake pads now that you are taking things apart anyway. I know this is a bigger job than just replacing the bearing since now you will be replacing both sides, but you'll be happier in the longer run.

Best,
Anders

Hi Daniel,

Maybe this is useful?
http://www.matramania.be/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2610&hilit=lager&start=570

Hi Anders,

Thank you for the super fast reply!

It does sound a little more complicated than I had hoped. I still haven't bought much tools yet and since I need the car running again next week it's probably best left to the shop this time.

I also noticed there's a little play in the steering shaft's U-joint. I haven't taken a close look yet but that seems like a very accessible and easy repair at first glance. Any advice on that? Or should I post that as a separate topic?

There's actually a whole bunch of other minor issues that I'd like to address over time and loads more questions I have. Perhaps it's better for the board structure and usability to post these as separate topics? (I won't spam them all at once and make sure I check if it hasn't been posted before) That way others that may have the same questions may be able to search their answers easier?

Hi Jan,

Thanks! I found similar instructions for random cars on youtube as well. Still seems like a bit too much for me at this point. I'm a bit afraid I end up with everything half deconstructed on the side of the road and then finding out I'm missing some essential tools to continue and not being able to put it back together because I'm lacking other equipment. Wouldn't be an issue if I had a garage to tool in but to just leave it up on blocks at the side of the road just feels wrong (though I guess it theoretically wouldn't be much of an issue but I don't want to risk it).

Hi Daniel

First about threading... I'd say you should feel free to use one thread or multiple threads as you wish. For example I keep an open thread describing my restoration project - it started out as a small task of getting the car back on the road, so that's what the title of the thread says, but it turned otherwise. I find it's interesting for some to follow the stories of different owners. For expert advice on a specific subject keeping threads may be helpful, of course.

Yeah, I agree - leave this to the garage and let a professional fix your problem. Do consider my advice about replacing both bearings, brake discs and pads while you're at it.

U-joint isn't too difficult to replace, so if you feel comfortable about doing that, don't hesitate.

Good luck!

Best,
Anders

Thanks! I will clean it when I have time and have a look about replacing it. it sounds like a good first project.

Brakes are new though so I don't think it's needed.

I've ordered a couple of extra bearings so I'll take your advice on both bearings. Seems very sensible.

Are the rear ones the same size by the way?

Hi Grapes and welcome. The front and rear bearings are the same. Check out Roy's Matra enthusiasts Web site.  It lists all alternative part numbers. Which are usually easier to find. Fantastic site and Roy's knowledge is second to none. Alternatively put your question such as "wheel bearings"  into the forum search bar. You will usually get a hit and helpfully pictures too.  What ever you do someone has usually done it before. This site is not like other car clubs. The people I find are very helpful and not condcending and more importantly want to help and enjoy their cars.
Tel

@TELBOY
Brilliant thanks! Really glad to hear that this website's community is so kind and helpful (already had that suspicion and also I guess it helps that we're driving a relatively special car). I will definitely check Roy's site (and have already visited it once but completely fooled by the minimalist looks and paper texture background I didn't spot the links for additional information).

-Update-
So the garage apparently overlooked the problem that caused the knocking sound as it was indeed as I already had suspected to do with the right rear brake disc. I seen the mechanic try them for any play when the car was lifted but he couldn't find anything wrong. Yesterday night the sound became also extremely audible while driving and I didn't want to risk driving on so decided to call on road assistance. After a few checks to the drive shaft he decided to take the wheel off entirely and then test the disc. and it was very loose. Also it was only bolted on with two bolts for some reason... I just checked my workplace manual and that mentions that there's supposed to be 4 instead of two! So now I'm going to have to check all 4 and hunt down additional bolts.

There are four bolts that hold the wheel on, but only two holding the disc to the hub, one plain bolt and one stud that locates the wheel, which I assume are the ones to which you are referring.

No, that's not right Peter.  There are four bolts holding the disc to the hub but one has the locating pin sticking out of the head, which is supposed to make it easier to locate the wheel on, but I never found that useful to be honest.  This is why I now have a mandrel which is much better.

The three plain bolts are part number 0012655111 (Simon's No. 11 016) and the special locating one is 0012655211 (Simon's No. 11 017) and they all have a washer 0081580911.  These are all Simca/Talbot numbers not Matra specific.  Although I have quoted Simon Auto's numbers, the three plain bolts would be obtainable here as there is nothing special about them - you just need the size, length and thread pitch.  The one with the guide pin head is specific and wouldn't be available generally, but if you make up a mandrel you won't need that one anyway and can simply use four of the plain bolts.

Roy

The index page has links to extra index pages, and on the second index page there is a link to the FAQ's as well as the Technical articles Index page and Alternative part number pages.  It was deliberately kept simple so that the pages load quickly, and since I hand code all my pages, they are easy for me to build or modify.  But the information on them is reasonably comprehensive.


Once you have checked all the hubs and disc bolts, if you find the missing bolt(s) are the guide bolts, since these will be harder to get, I would advise making a mandrel to help fit the wheels, and forget those guide bolts.  Then you can just get enough plain bolts to replace those that are missing.  The plain bolts should be easy enough to obtain.

A mandrel is simply a shaft about 150 mm long with an M12x1.50 thread on one end, so that it can be screwed by hand into one of the wheel bolt holes.  It doesn't need to be tight.  Next you put the wheel on the shaft (through one of the bolt holes), side it down to the hub, and fit the other three wheel bolts.  Now you can remove the mandrel and fit the last wheel bolt in its place.  Torque up all wheel bolts and the job is done.

Roy.

Hi Roy,

Thanks for chipping in!

Makes sense what you explain about your website. I'm sure to check it out when I'm looking for parts!

Great advice about the Mandrel, I never heard about it and it's a very elegant solution. Will be sure to get one!

Interesting about the bolts, my parts list only shows 2 although there is provision for four.  I can endorse Roy's advice about the mandrel, simply get a long bolt of the correct thread and cut the head off.  Much easier than using the guide bolt.
Roy,
Is your email working correctly?  I replied to your email about alternators and it bounced.

What parts list is that Peter?  I have an original (new) Matra Murena parts microfiche, in English, which I obtained when I bought my new Murena 2.2 in January 1983.  Being in the trade and having access to microfiche readers at work, and knowing that it would be unlikely a U.K. Talbot dealer would have one at that time, I obtained one for myself.  I've also obtained over the years a few other French microfiche for Bagheera as well as Murena and I've had my own microfiche reader for many years too - when dealers were getting rid of them as they replaced them with computers, I got myself one of those free. :)

Now the microfiche correctly states 6 of the plain bolts and 2 of the guide bolts for one axle.  So I'm puzzled where you got a list that only states 2 plain bolts per brake disc.

Over the years I have checked these microfiche and other parts lists like the ones turned into parts books, and I can tell you now that there are many, many mistakes, which I have corrected over the years as I turned mine into a computer version.  This computer version has graphics on the left and the parts on the right are in text and number form which allows me to search by part number or text, which you cannot do with a microfiche or book.  I have also corrected many of the drawings, text and numbers and even added in missing ones.  I have probably the most accurate and comprehensive parts list for the Murena now.


Actually it is ironic you should ask this at this moment as I only found out this morning myself that there was a fault, which is down to the changeover of my web hosting.  The website was down for a few days whilst the changeover was happening, as you may have noticed, but that should be all sorted now, I hope.  However, it appears the move has disrupted the domain email, and I have not received anything since last Friday (17th) and have notified them today.  Hopefully it should be fixed in a few hours they say, but whether I will get all the missing emails or not, I won't know until it is fixed.  I hope so, but you never can tell with these things.  Anyway, give me until tomorrow at least, and if I get all the back emails, I can see tomorrow may be spent answering them all!

Roy

Roy, I thought your email problem was linked to your other hosting problems.  The parts list is one I acquired with the car and appears to have been compiled by Matramagic from an official source, but there are pages missing and in the wrong order.  I have since consulted the workshop manual and there are indeed four bolts.  I should have done that in the first place but it is in the garage and I keep the parts list in the house!

It actually shows one plain bolt and one with the locating pin.

Yes but that is just to save over-complicating the drawing.  If you check the parts listing on the right it shows the quantities, and it has 6 (plain) and 2 (guide) bolts.  In fact if you look carefully at the drawing there is a small 6 in front of the part number of the plain bolt washer and a small 2 in front of the guide bolt washer part number (which is actually the same part number 0081580911 - so 8 washers for 8 bolts.)  I'm not sure why they missed the numbers from in front of the bolt numbers in the drawing.  There are many instances of this pre number in drawings to indicate the quantity.  There are also may frames where the bolts, washer, rivets etc. in the drawings are not included in the lists on the right side of the page.  This is another modification included in my corrected computer manual - all parts in a frame drawing are listed on the right hand side.

Roy

(https://i.imgur.com/bFHsR54.png)
That's what is in my Dutch workshop manual pdf...

I had a quick look at the Simon part number catalogue, an they show different numbers for the front and rear wheel bearings (12011 and 11012). Are they indeed the same?

Yes they are indeed.  It is simply that like most companies they have a section for front axle and another for rear axle, and in Simon's numbering system the first two digits are the section number so one starts '11' (front axle) and the other '12' (rear axle).

Roy

Thank you Roy for confirming. Now it also makes sense why most parts places only list one type of wheel bearing.