MatraSport Forum

Each model => Murena => Topic started by: Grapes on January 23, 2021, 11:53:55 am



Title: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on January 23, 2021, 11:53:55 am
Figured I'd start a single thread after all.

Just pulled the oil stick out and the tip has apparently broken off and is still in the block  :'(

Any suggestions? I must admit I start to feel quite in over my head with this car.

Is it just a matter of draining the oil, taking the sump off, pushing it through, reassemble and fill up?
Maybe put a new oil filter in while I'm at it?

Oh and I guess I will somehow need to find a new stick I guess... 🤔


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on January 23, 2021, 06:36:31 pm
Figured I'd start a single thread after all.

Just pulled the oil stick out and the tip has apparently broken off and is still in the block  :'(

Any suggestions? I must admit I start to feel quite in over my head with this car.

Is it just a matter of draining the oil, taking the sump off, pushing it through, reassemble and fill up?
Maybe put a new oil filter in while I'm at it?

Oh and I guess I will somehow need to find a new stick I guess... 🤔

Last thing first - unless you manage to find a good second hand one, you cannot get the electronic dipstick any longer.  It hasn't been available for some time.

If the end has come off, it has broken so you can't just recover the end from the sump and 're-assemble' it.  The way these work is that the end contains a fine wire through which a small current is passed.  This will cause the wire to heat up and change resistance.  Now if the oil level is correct, the end and wire will be submerged in the oil, and that will keep it relatively cool whereas if the oil level is low and therefore the wire is now exposed to the air, it will get hotter and the resistance change triggers the control module (under the left hand side of the dash) to signal the low oil level by flashing the oil level warning light.

Since the end had broken off, the connections are obviously broken, and I doubt you could repair it, but I've never had a chance to try one, so I can't say for certain.

Probably the easiest and certainly cheapest is to fit the old type manual dipstick and disconnect the module (to stop the warning light flashing all the time).  Then regularly check the oil level as everyone used to do. :)

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on January 24, 2021, 01:29:44 am
Yep I already suspected that reassembling that would be unlikely but I'm totally fine with manual checking.

What about getting the tip out? I guess I can fish that bit out of the sump though right?

Any other things I might as well refurbish when I'm draining the block? I haven't had a chance to check the compression unfortunately. But I figured it might be a good idea to replace some of the other things as a precaution.

It was leaking oil into one of the ignition wells last time I checked and with the failed cooling system I wouldn't be surprised if it needs quite a bit of work.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Matraman on January 24, 2021, 01:41:40 pm
It's been over 25 years since I put the same 1.6 engine which you have in your Murena, into my Bagheera, but from memory I think you should suspect the rocker cover gasket if oil is accumulating round the spark plug wells. It's a relatively simple part to replace so have a close look at where the oil is coming from.

As for extracting your broken dip stick tip; drain the oil first, maybe through an old sieve, and see if the part comes out that way. You're lucky it's a 1.6 engine because the sump should be reasonably simple to remove if necessary. You might need to disconnect the gear change shaft to do it though. Replace the sump gasket with a new one while you're at it. If you had a 2.2 and needed to remove the sump you would have to take the engine out! So count your blessings!


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on January 24, 2021, 09:16:25 pm
I am really glad to have the 1.6 indeed. Seems very versitile and if it ever does brake down I could perhaps find a newer PSA engine to replace it. The 2.2 doesn't seem to have much options in that regard. But for now the aim is to fix it up as best as I can. If only for the educational value.

Ehm OK so when I'm draining the block anyway and removing the top and bottom, anything else that I should do while rummaging around in there? Other seals I might as well replace? Valves? That last one is a bit of a mystery to me but I read that they need checking at regular intervals and I have no idea when it has had the last service.

Would be a bit of a shame if I only replaced the cover gasket and filled the block back up, only to find out that I would have to do it again because of something else.

Do I need to take the carbs off as well? I want to be sure that I have all the right gaskets to replace when I have to put things back together again.

While I am going to be buying stuff anyway. I have the feeling that there is something wrong with the transmission as well. Maybe just the clutch though. If I'm running the engine stationary I can hear an ever so faint grinding noise. When I press the clutch it is gone.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Matraman on January 28, 2021, 12:14:54 pm
I'm not the best qualified to answer your questions because my current car is a 2.2 which I've just mechanically renovated and learnt a lot on the way, with help of people on this forum. To try and help I would say the following:
IF it's the cause of the oil leak, removing the rocker cover to replace the gasket is a fairly easy job and the gasket can be reused if you have to do it again for some reason, so there's no great need to do other stuff while your at it. Have you noticed any smoke from the exhaust or tappet rattle? If not you can leave valve seals for another time because they will need a spring compressor. I'm not sure whether you can leave the head on that engine and pressurise the cylinders in order to replace them, or whether the head has to come off. That's much more work than a rocker cover gasket. If there's tappet rattle you can adjust the valve clearances while the rocker cover is off.

If you're removing the sump I don't think there's much else to be done while you're at it, apart from the gasket. Obviously replace the oil and oil filter while the engine is empty.

You won't need to remove carbs for the rocker cover as far as I know.

The noise you hear before depressing the clutch pedal is probably the clutch release bearing. A faint noise is usually okay, a louder noise indicates it's on its way out.

I hope that's of some help


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on January 28, 2021, 01:49:54 pm
Ah super. Thanks for pitching in. I will just start with the sump and valve cover seals etc so I can do a compression test. Knowing that the gasket can be reused is a great relief. Looking forward to tackle this.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on January 28, 2021, 03:15:51 pm


The noise you hear before depressing the clutch pedal is probably the clutch release bearing. A faint noise is usually okay, a louder noise indicates it's on its way out.

I hope that's of some help
Wrong.  If the clutch release bearing is on its way out you will hear the noise when you press the clutch pedal, not when it is released.  The noise you can hear is the constant mesh gears in the gearbox.  A small amount of noise is normal, you only need to worry if it starts getting worse.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Matraman on January 29, 2021, 11:11:05 am
Oh well at least it was only one thing wrong! The best part is someone more qualified than me has pitched in to help.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on February 03, 2021, 09:56:15 pm
Even better  :D


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on February 16, 2021, 03:59:51 pm
Does anyone know where I can get a replacement oil dipstick? Or should I just check with some second hand sellers?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on February 16, 2021, 06:40:14 pm
Does anyone know where I can get a replacement oil dipstick? Or should I just check with some second hand sellers?

Assuming you are talking here about the electronic sensor dipstick, as I stated here on January 23rd, you can't get a new one as they haven't been available for a long time.  You can try for a second hand one, but I fear that will be unlikely.  A manual one should be possible, but I don't have a part number for one of those, but there must have been loads of them around since the same engine was fitted in a large number of Simca/Talbot 1307/Alpine/1308/Solara.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on February 23, 2021, 11:48:37 pm
No I actually meant the manual one because you already mentioned the electronic one not being available. I tried Autodoc for a manual one but they couldn't supply so I guess that may also have to be a second hand one.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on March 04, 2021, 02:37:19 pm
No I actually meant the manual one because you already mentioned the electronic one not being available. I tried Autodoc for a manual one but they couldn't supply so I guess that may also have to be a second hand one.

Since you have the broken electronic dipstick, why not simply use the top piece where it fits into the dipstick tube and fix a flat piece of steel to it, cut to a suitable length and marked that with the low and high levels.  If you don't have the correct measurements I'm sure someone with a 1.6 could supply them from their dipstick.  Or alternatively with the engine empty of oil, fill it with the correct amount of litres, then insert the new manual dipstick, and mark it where the oil level has left its trace.  For a low level mark you can simply mark it about 10 mm lower.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on March 09, 2021, 08:15:46 pm
Is €350 an OK price for spare seats with slightly worn leather upholstery?
Carjoy is selling some and I figured it would be nice to have a spare set so I can re-do the current ones.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on April 23, 2021, 05:03:27 pm
Hi again, can someone give me the basic steps to replace the valve cover gasket or alternatively refer me to the correct section in the manual. I've been browsing the A0 part about the engine but it's not written in a way that I can really wrap my head around it so maybe I'm either skipping over it or looking at the wrong section?

Additionally I took the carter pan off at the start of this week and couldn't find the broken tip of the oil stick so either it fell somewhere outside of the engine after all or it may have been flushed into the drip pan when I drained the oil. I will filter it before putting it in bottles to dispose of it just to be sure but I figured if I can't find it that's good news.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 07, 2021, 02:59:37 pm
Small victory for me. For now I hope to have successfully replaced the sump gasket and the rocker cover gasket. That last one was a bit of a pain because of the position of the four screws close to the engine bay wall so if anyone has any tips to reach them easier in the future I'd be happy to hear it.

While replacing the rocker cover I started to wonder if the inlet manifold (that's the thing that the carb is bolted on top of right?) gasket needed replacing as well. Looked like it hasn't been touched in 40 years and with the other gaskets failing I figured this could also need a change. Is that an equally "easy" like the rocker cover one?

Apart from that I still need to deal with the radiator fan not turning on. As I understood from Roy the easiest way to reach it is by removing the floor up front that the battery sits in. I had a look and is seems like quite an undertaking after all. I noticed there's some holes for wires to go through and then there is the battery itself. Am I right to assume that all I need to do is remove the rivets and carefully raise the entire floor, battery and all? Or should I disconnect things and take the battery out first?

 


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on May 07, 2021, 03:23:42 pm
I think you should remove the battery, it's not much extra work, but before that make sure the connections to the switch are ok.  You can reach them from underneath the car on the left hand side.  With the ignition on there should be 12 volts on one connector and earth on the other.  Also, if the de-gassing pipe that runs from the top of the radiator to the header tank is blocked, the radiator may not fill completely so the coolant level never reaches the switch.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 12, 2021, 12:46:23 am
OK so if I understand it correctly likely possible culprits can be:
1. Fan motor defect
2. Switch defect
3. Blocked degas pipe
4. Thermostat defect (This was recently suggested by a friend)

1 and 2 probably require me to disassemble the front floor?
3 and 4 can be checked in the engine bay?

In regards to the possibly blocked degas pipe: Any suggestions how to check this and if so, how to unblock it?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on May 12, 2021, 12:05:28 pm
You should be able to reach the switch from underneath without taking the floor out with a bit of patience and the right tools.  As for the de-gassing pipe, it's easy to check.  Remove filler cap and clamp off the overflow from the filler neck.  Remove the de-gassing pipe from the header tank and quickly put your finger over the outlet from the tank to stop the coolant escaping.  Then put your mouth to the filler neck and blow as hard as you can until clean coolant comes from the disconnected de-gassing pipe and re-connect the pipe.  Be careful not to swallow any anti-freeze.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 12, 2021, 12:36:17 pm
Oh brilliant that's an easy one. I think you or someone else on here has actually mentioned that before. It does sound very familiar.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on May 12, 2021, 01:15:18 pm
Probably was me, the first time I did it a lot of rusty sludge came out.  I think it collects in the lowest part of the pipe under the car.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 16, 2021, 01:58:59 pm
Does the oil filter unscrew counter clockwise like everything else in the world?
I couldn't get it off as hard as I tried...


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on May 16, 2021, 07:31:47 pm
Yes it does, get yourself a chain wrench.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 17, 2021, 12:11:04 am
Yeah, I will. I tried à three prong but it was too large 🙁


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 17, 2021, 11:37:51 am
Is there a way to manually turn the oil pump when I get the filter replaced so I can pre-lubricate the engine before I attempt to fire it up again?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: tonyz59 on May 17, 2021, 08:26:56 pm
just disconnect the  king lead to the distributor from the the coil. the engine will turn over and not start and it will get the oil pressure up and get oil to where its wanted before you fire it up.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 18, 2021, 12:10:18 pm
Oh clever! Thanks!


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 21, 2021, 03:13:58 pm
Disassembled muffler and made enough room so I could finally get the old oil filter off and put a new one in. Yay.

Got new questions though:

1. I noticed the engine has a diagnostics port. should I find diagnostic equipment for this? If so, how can I find one? I assume this is an older type than in current cars?

2. I also notice in some engine bay pictures there is an air intake hose attached to the air filter housing. Mine doesn't have that. Where does it go to, what is its use, why don't I have one or perhaps better put, should I get one?.
(https://i.imgur.com/Uuo3hZ1.png?1)

3. Another thing I read in the owner manual is that there should be a gasket ring for the sump plug which also seems to be missing o my car. I don't see this item listed in the CarJoy webshop though (and preferably don't want to buy there any more since last time it took them 10 days to ship me the rocker cover gasket).
Should I get one? If so, what kind? One guy mentioned getting a copper compression washer. Is that what I need?

4. And I noticed this tube wasn't connected and noticed a connection point under what I think is the thermostat that didn't have a hose on. Am I correct this hose leads here and what are the specifications for it. I want to replace it since I think the one that is on there is too small.
(https://i.imgur.com/7IWJtYN.jpg)

Am sure I'll get more questions eventually but let's leave it at this for now.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: tonyz59 on May 21, 2021, 04:00:25 pm
the oil seal for the sump plug on simon site part no 01121 - 1 euro. just to add it's not a copper crush washer but a brass with a inner rubber seal. i think the hose at the expansion tank is the pressure relief and should just lead out to under the car .


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on May 21, 2021, 04:07:12 pm
The hose is the overflow and the lower end is unconnected.  I think the connection on the thmostat housing is for a different model using the same engine.  The diagnostic port seems to vary according to the year and I don't rate your chances of getting the correct equipment.  I should just invest in a good multimeter.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 21, 2021, 04:57:45 pm
Ah thanks!


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 22, 2021, 10:32:53 am
Any alternatives for the brass with rubber sump plug seal? Shipping is a whopping 20€ from. Simon which I find a bit over the top for a 1€ part  ::)


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on May 22, 2021, 12:52:30 pm
If you know the size then it should be possible to buy the correct one from an independent parts supplier


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 22, 2021, 08:09:01 pm
Ah, common parts then, excellent 😀


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on May 23, 2021, 08:51:52 pm
Got new questions though:

One guy mentioned getting a copper compression washer. Is that what I need?

Yes all you need is a copper washer to help seal the sump plug to the sump.  Either a normal copper washer or a crushable one should do, but if you want a washer with the rubber seal around the inner edge, they are called Dowty washers.

Quote
4. And I noticed this tube wasn't connected and noticed a connection point under what I think is the thermostat that didn't have a hose on. Am I correct this hose leads here and what are the specifications for it. I want to replace it since I think the one that is on there is too small.
(https://i.imgur.com/7IWJtYN.jpg)

No, no, no!  Do not connect the overflow hose to anywhere!  That overflow hose from just under the radiator cap on the header tank simply vents down onto the ground, if the system was to boil over.  If it overflowed and you had it connected to a vacuum port, the coolant would get sucked into the combustion chamber and you would damage the engine, possibly bending a con-rod!

The port in the photo on the right which you say is under what you think is the thermostat housing, looks like it is an inlet manifold vacuum connection, but I can't tell exactly from your photo.  I'm not as familiar with the 1.6 as I am with a 2.2 engine compartment.  But you certainly don't want the overflow hose connecting to a vacuum port!!

If that is a vacuum port, then when the engine is started, that would be allowing air into the manifold, and should have a vacuum hose connected to something.  You need to check all the vacuum lines to see what is not connected.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: JL on May 24, 2021, 05:05:03 pm
Hi, nothing is connected to this - I assume that it is a common casting with the outlet not used in this installation.
Cheers
John


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on May 25, 2021, 05:53:34 pm
Hi, nothing is connected to this - I assume that it is a common casting with the outlet not used in this installation.
Cheers
John

Thanks John for the clarification.  If that is just an unused blank port, then you certainly wouldn't want to connect the cooling system overflow hose to it, Dan, as the coolant could not get out!

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 26, 2021, 01:37:10 pm
No worries, thanks for clearing that up!


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 01, 2021, 11:59:21 am
Fan working!  https://imgur.com/a/KFGbUly

Geleased some air through the valve on top of the degas tube I think. I remember doing that as well when I refilled it previously but somehow it didn't work then but it did now and I also topped up the coolant a bit more. By shining a light through the plastic of the header tank I was able to see the level of the coolant and that was not high enough.

Also had the engine running a while to get to a temperature that would even turn the fan on and didn't see anything leaking anymore... At least not yet... 😅
Did not do a compression test yet and I noticed the revs are very low when I don't choke it. Any suggestions what to look for or how to adjust it? Just tightening the throttle cable?

Going to replace the battery and make an MOT appointment so I can hopefully start driving it again at least while working on the other issues that need to be addressed.

I also tried to make a recording of the noise I hear when I take my foot off the clutch but the file is too big for the attachment unfortunately so I will find another way to share it here. I did check the transmission fluid and that seemed to be fine.



Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: tonyz59 on June 01, 2021, 02:26:42 pm
Noise on clutch could be the slave cylinder. I just had the slave cylinder fail , at first the pedal did not spring back fully then I had a little rattling noise that went away when I depressed the clutch pedal slightly. When I looked underneath the fluid was seeping out from the rubber boot. I don't think the clutch fluid had ever been changed in the car it was almost black and mostly water by its viscosity !


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: JL on June 01, 2021, 05:24:03 pm
I have realised that even after reducing the image size in my post, the photograph is cocking up subsequent emails making them slightly difficult to read(too wide). Has anybody got any idea how I can remove the image, resize and replace it with a smaller one back in the post?
Cheers
John


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 01, 2021, 06:01:06 pm
Noise on clutch could be the slave cylinder. I just had the slave cylinder fail , at first the pedal did not spring back fully then I had a little rattling noise that went away when I depressed the clutch pedal slightly. When I looked underneath the fluid was seeping out from the rubber boot. I don't think the clutch fluid had ever been changed in the car it was almost black and mostly water by its viscosity !

For me the noise comes when the pedal is not pressed and goes away when I press it.
My fluid was clear, slightly foul smelling and had a low viscosity... 🤔 Guess it may need a change? Definitely not black though....


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on June 01, 2021, 06:51:41 pm
I have realised that even after reducing the image size in my post, the photograph is cocking up subsequent emails making them slightly difficult to read(too wide). Has anybody got any idea how I can remove the image, resize and replace it with a smaller one back in the post?
Cheers
John

I've sent you an email with a reduced one John.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 01, 2021, 09:19:42 pm
Transmission rattle. Converted the wav to a smaller mp3  ;)


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on June 02, 2021, 03:07:14 pm
Sounds like the constant mesh gears, I've heard worse on new cars.  My philosophy with transmission noises is to worry only if they start to get worse.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 02, 2021, 09:01:11 pm
OK that sounds good to me 👍 😁


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 11, 2021, 05:26:28 pm
Hi, I brought my car for the MOT and the garage told me that the brake booster or brake servo isn't working properly. Someone advised me to rebuild it rather than replace it. What do you guys advise?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on June 12, 2021, 11:34:12 am
I haven't heard of anyone rebuilding one of these, or if the parts are available.  Before condemning the servo I would check that there is vacuum at the servo and that the non-return valve where the vacuum pipe connects to the servo is functioning.  It is easy to check a servo.  With the engine off pump the pedal several times until the vacuum is exhausted then, while holding the pedal down, start the engine.  With a good servo you should feel the pedal sink slightly.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 12, 2021, 01:19:51 pm
Ah ok and if they are right about the servo, are there replacements available?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on June 13, 2021, 01:05:53 pm
Simon-auto stock them for 199 euros exchange, but you may find that a unit from other contemporary models may fit.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 13, 2021, 02:50:15 pm
Alright that should work. I'll check the vacuum thing first  :)


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: JV on June 14, 2021, 09:46:07 pm
Please, reduce the format of your picture


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 15, 2021, 09:58:41 am
Please, reduce the format of your picture

My bad! Here is the small one. To me it really looks like the servo has started to leak. Also I guess that these indeed can be rebuilt seeing how Matra Magic and Simon Auto both offer them as exchange parts. So I guess I'll start by removing this one.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on June 15, 2021, 10:07:26 am
There shouldn't be fluid inside the servo.  If that's brake fluid you can see then it's coming from the master cylinder and you should notice a fluid loss.  These can be rebuilt cheaply and you can find instructions on how to do it on Roy Gillard's website.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 16, 2021, 08:59:50 am
Ah, maybe the garage just sprayed the joints in something 🤔


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 28, 2021, 03:15:54 pm
Need to polish the lenses of the headlamps to get it MOT approved... Does anyone know if that toothpaste polishing technique that floats around the internet really works?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 29, 2021, 05:16:13 am
It's usually the reflectors that give people problems. I would buy a headlamp polish kit, toothpaste may work, but why waste time on trying when there are polishes made for just this, e.g. https://www.holtsauto.com/holts/products/headlight-restoration-kit/

/Anders


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 29, 2021, 01:32:16 pm
Headlamp polish kit acquired! Thanks for the quick advice! These must be popular, I had to visit 3 stores before I found one that wasn't sold out. Also had a hard time finding a vacuum hose for the connection between the brake booster and the plastic pipe. Apparently the 9mm inner diameter is uncommon? I've got a piece of hydraulics hose from a pneumatics company now that feels more or less equally tough. I'll just have to try it out and hope it's a match I guess.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 30, 2021, 05:36:48 am
Great! I've never tried it, but the kit looked good. Is it too late to ask for pictures showing before/after? :)


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 01, 2021, 03:08:31 pm
Nope it isn't but when I inspected the lenses when I gotten back to the garage I noticed the lenses where perfect so I shelved the kit for later use on our family car where the headlamps do seem to have gotten a bit hazy. I already had my suspicions since it's pop-up lamps which don't normally see a lot of UV time to damage the lenses but I was in hte supply shop and since I figured I could always use it for another car I decided just to get it to save me an extra trip.
I think I'll just replace the bulbs and try and clean the reflectors.
I read I can stuff pieces of paper towel through the bulb hole and then let them twirl around with the compressor to remove any dust build-up. If that doesn't work I'll have them explain me what they feel isn't right about it and see if they can give me some suggestions.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 03, 2021, 08:21:25 am
So I rang the garage yesterday and after some explaining from my side they checked with the mechanic who did the check who said he changed the bulbs but didn't check if that solved the issue. 🤦‍♂️
Anyway I don't see anything wrong with the lenses. The reflectors are also largely okay. Going to bring it back to the garage again after the weekend fingers crossed 🤞


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 09, 2021, 11:08:47 am
Aaand I'm back on the road! Replaced the brake booster after all with a trade in one from Simon Auto. Super fast delivery, much faster than the few gaskets I ordered at Carjoy a while ago even though Simon's across the border for me and Carjoy is local so I think I found my new default parts supplier :)

Not sure what to tackle next to be honest. At least there's no more leaking and during the current temperatures it also starts without need for the choke. Probably will do a compression test soon to see how bad the block is. For me it feels powerful enough but I'm kind of a slow cruiser these days and I assume it's better to get things in shape to prevent larger issues in the future.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: tonyz59 on July 09, 2021, 02:59:43 pm
Well done, there will be other things that go wrong don't worry  ::) so you will be increasing your mechanical skills, i have no doubt !!


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 10, 2021, 08:01:03 am
Indeed, well done! I second your strategy: Brakes first, engine later. Happy cruising! :)


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 12, 2021, 02:04:51 am
Thanks 😁
I'm happy getting there a little slower as long as I can stop when I get there 😉
Noticed some wobble at higher speeds and it sounds like I need to tighten the fan belt again so I will have to get the wheels balanced and will get the alignment checked as well. It looks like I lost some balancing weights in one of the wheels somehow so that's probably where it comes from.

Any tips for light from the sunroof reflecting on the divider window behind the headrests? I can hardly use the rear view mirror in the car.
Sunroof is also leaking a bit of air because it needs a new rubber seal. Are they a stock part?

And I noticed that the doors seem to be off. The ridge doesn't align with the one in the bodywork. Is that something common?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 12, 2021, 05:47:56 am
Many Murenas had aftermarket sunroofs fitted (mine doesn't have one), so I doubt there's a standard seal to be found. I found a coat of silicone grease around the seal effective on my Espace. It even reseals after opening and I haven't had to renew it even after a few years. Also, remove the glass to clean the seal well. Dirty seals are the primary cause of leaking sunroofs.

About the reflection, when you have the glass off, fit solar film?

Some misalignment of panels is common. I think the door panels were fitted with the door frame already mounted on the chassis to ensure they were aligned when new, but they were rarely perfect. Matra improved this over the years and in the last Espace's it was always good. But this fitting process, however, means that every door is individually aligned to the chassis it was built for so if the door was replaced during the cars life the panel will always be a bit out of alignment. How much is the misalignment?

/Anders


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 14, 2021, 12:43:36 pm
Hi Anders,

Thanks for the tips. The seal on my sunroof is probably damaged beyond repair at some places but I had either the brilliant or the stupid idea I might be able to replace the old seal by creating a new seal with either bathroom silicone (the stuff you use to close seams with between e.g. your sink and the wall) or gasket silicone. Just taking out the old rubber tube and just filling the grove with silicone and letting that dry before putting the window back in.

In regards to the reflection, I'm not sure foil will work... there will still be light falling through hitting that back pane I suspect? I'm probably just going to block the window entirely since I mostly like the fact that I can open it. I do sometimes take it out entirely which almost gives it a targa feel. Maybe there's anti reflection foil I can put on the divider pane though! Or was that what you meant all along?

The alignment isn't much but it's visible and now I noticed it it started to bother me :D
I attached a picture. On the driver's side it's the same but I think not just at the rear but also at the front of the groove. I checked pictures on the web and it's indeed not uncommon. Might at some point just fill the entire groove and paint a black line there. Or perhaps a stripe might already be enough to mask it. Not actually planning to do anything with it on short term unless it was an easy fix though. At some point I probably want to do a new paint job and maybe add skirts but for now my focus is to keep it driving as much as possible.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on July 14, 2021, 11:46:35 pm

The alignment isn't much but it's visible and now I noticed it it started to bother me :D
I attached a picture.


Actually that's a pretty good alignment Dan.  You have to remember this is a hand built car on a hot-dip totally galvanised chassis, not a mass produced 'eurobox' made in steel with mm precision.

Do you realise that the galvanising process causes unavoidable slight distortion?  This is why you could not do this to a mass produced car.  The fact that the chassis (which will have distorted slightly) is hidden by the composite outer bodywork makes it possible to hide those slight imperfections.

However, there is one problem and that is the part of the door hinge that is fastened to the chassis is actually welded to the chassis and cannot be moved!  On the passenger side it is just about perfectly placed, but the drivers side (on all cars - see original press release photos) was welded slightly incorrectly and so the rear of the door never did align correctly.  So to lift the rear and align the door and the groove, they packed the lower hinge on the door fastening.  If it is still too low, all you need to do is insert a little more packing.  In fact with age, the door will probably have dropped a little anyway as per the rear of your passenger door, so it will probably benefit from a little more packing to bring it back to correct.

Packing out the door hinge mounting is an easy job, and takes little time.  But when you do this you must also make sure you re-adjust the anchor point too, otherwise the action of shutting the door will mean that the latching of the mechanism on the anchor pin to pull it down out of alignment again!

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 16, 2021, 01:11:21 am
I never realised that that was part of the galvanisation process 😅
Thanks for pointing that out.
Now I know why this is, I'm already a little less bothered by it. I'll have a look at packing the hinges at some point.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 17, 2021, 10:29:00 pm
Are the bacs of the rear lamp units supposed to be bare like this?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 18, 2021, 09:09:11 am
Are the bacs of the rear lamp units supposed to be bare like this?

Yes, a back cover was fitted in Germany, but not in other countries.

/Anders


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on July 18, 2021, 03:52:43 pm
Are the bacs of the rear lamp units supposed to be bare like this?

On the early Murena, up to the end of the 1982 model year, they had a fibre cover that clipped into place behind the rear lamps.  Replacements for these fibre covers used to be available in glass fibre - they may still be, but I haven't checked recently.

For the 1983 model year up to the end of production, the chassis had metal covers welded a the back of the holes in the rear panel before galvanising, forming a solid rear cover for the rear lamps.  (This was for any market model Anders, not just for Germany)

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: MatraIan on July 18, 2021, 08:19:25 pm
Not sure if they are available at Carjoy or Simon but Matramagic have them listed as in stock. Not cheap though.
Drivers: https://www.matramagic.co.uk/Rear-Light-Internal-Cover-Murena-Driver-Side-p205508762
passenger: https://www.matramagic.co.uk/Rear-Light-Internal-Cover-Murena-Passenger-Side-p205510084
Pics attached and also a pic of the factory one as fitted on my 2.2S
Ian.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 19, 2021, 06:48:02 am
For the 1983 model year up to the end of production, the chassis had metal covers welded a the back of the holes in the rear panel before galvanising, forming a solid rear cover for the rear lamps.  (This was for any market model Anders, not just for Germany)

Thanks for correcting me, Roy! :)


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 19, 2021, 05:00:10 pm
Simon doesn't have them, I checked. I might make something at some point.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 20, 2021, 08:26:01 pm
OK, new strange thing popped up today... My speedometer needle is jumping up and down and sometimes stops working. Any tips what I should look for?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 21, 2021, 07:12:22 am
OK, new strange thing popped up today... My speedometer needle is jumping up and down and sometimes stops working. Any tips what I should look for?

I'd check the speedometer cable. It goes from the speedometer to the left front wheel through the front compartment. The cable could be broken, if so most likely around the place where it is attached to the wheel hub. Inspect it carefully. The attachment to the speedometer itself can be checked by reaching up with your hand behind the instrument cluster from below. It might have undone itself from the speedometer. If so, push it gently onto the speedometer until the cable latches onto the speedometer.

/Anders


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 21, 2021, 11:12:59 am
I have been messing with the cables of the radio and its one big mess behind the dash so it wouldn't surprise me if I accidentally dislodged it. Fingers crossed 🤞


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 22, 2021, 05:18:18 pm
So I finally got around to doing a compression test and it's looking pretty grim I guess? it's more less 8 kilo Pascal across all cylinders with 1 cylinder maybe around 8.5 and first one from the rights may be around 7.9. It's really hard to read out kilopascals on the compression tester that I had.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: JL on July 22, 2021, 07:31:20 pm
Are you sure that you are reading kilopascal, 1kpa = 0.145psi? If were Bar then 8bar = 112psi - not great but at least the readings are reasonably even and the engine would run.
Cheers
John


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 22, 2021, 09:01:37 pm
In psi I think it was about 120 for the good ones and 110 for the worse one. Could that be correct?

Two of the spark plugs were pretty black as well and replaced all of them and I'm going to check again in about a week to see if it gets black again.

On top of that the rubber seals that are around the spark plugs that I assume prevent dirt from falling through are completely eroded so will need replacement as well.

But yeah the engine runs, probably far from optimal though.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 22, 2021, 10:39:46 pm
I'd like to see a photo of the spark plugs. It is normal for the plugs to turn black over time on carburetted engines. We have gotten so used to fuel injected engines with O2 sensors that we expect plugs to stay the same colour through their life.

Also, I find it odd that you get more or less the same reading for the compression test on all four cylinders. Are you sure your meter is good?

/Anders


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: JL on July 23, 2021, 08:03:44 am
When you are taking the compression readings have you taken all of the plugs out of the head and is the battery good enough to crank the engine over at a decent speed?
Cheers
John


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 23, 2021, 12:10:14 pm
Two plugs where the regular "black" and two where covered in sooth ;) Will make the picture later.
I wasn't sure how to do the compression test so I did the following steps:
1. Warmed up the engine.
2. disconnected the main lead to the distributor.
3. disconnected the plug on the first cylinder to the right
4. took the plug out
5. attached the meter
6. cranked until the needle stopped moving
7. put a new plug in
8. put the lead back on (I didn't want to mess up the order so I did them one at a time)
9. repeat steps 3 to 8 working my way right to left.

I threw out the broken rings from 3 of the 4 plug holes since they where well... broken...
It did surprise and slightly relief me that the reading across all cylinders are roughly the same. The one on the right is definitely worse than the one on the left and the two in the middle where more or less equal to each other. I written it down as (right to left) 7.9   8.0   8.2  and  8.4
The meter was fine according to my friend who used it on his bike previously. It wasn't one of the most high tech ones though. They all seem to come from the same Chinese factory... Mine was broken unfortunately :/

@John
I did not take all plugs out at once (I wasn't sure that was needed and didn't want to risk putting them back in the wrong hole)
I'm not sure if the battery is good enough to crank the engine over at a decent speed. I haven't driven this car much since I got it last summer and it has been in repairs since Septembre or something. I figured if it starts and doesn't drain the battery if I don't drive it for a week or two by itself it should be fine.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: JL on July 23, 2021, 02:15:08 pm
To get a better idea of the compression, remove all of the plugs before you spin the engine over and have the carburettor fully open and no choke - this should give you better readings.
Cheers
John


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on August 05, 2021, 04:54:34 pm
Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to test the compression yet with the new instruction where I'm supposed to remove all the plugs yet.
However in the mean time there's another issue I'd like to start giving some attention.
I recently noticed my car hangs ever so slightly towards the driver's side (it's almost like the 40 years of carrying just the driver on one side have caused this).
I never really noticed this myself until someone pointed it out. Another thing I noticed is that it's drifting slightly off to the drivers side as well and I wonder if it might be related. If so I guess I need to fix the hang first before I fix the alignment. I already checked with a local shop but they told me they can't align it because the computer doesn't know the car (frustratingly enough I did notice several older cars like the Renault Dauphine in the list) so I also wonder how I'm going to fix that  ???


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on August 06, 2021, 09:52:52 am
Just had a bit of Googling around and I wonder if the only solution is to use the old school play with measuring tape and pieces of string... Or will it be possible to give the right dimensions to a shop so they can put that into the computer to perform the alignment?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: GP on August 06, 2021, 10:45:33 pm
Err there is not that much a Computer can do to help you with alignment on a standard Murena really.....
Only thing you can easily adjust is the "Toe in and Toe out" of the front wheels with the track rods. Never been near a computer for this myself, most tyre fitting shops in the U.K. have a portable alignment gauge that they do this with.  
The other item on the front that is adjustable is the "Camber" which you adjust by adding or removing the "Camber Shims" between the upper suspension arm bracket assembly. Castor is fixed.
There is absolutely nothing that can be adjusted on the rear of the car except tyre pressure!
As for the front ride height, this can easily be taken up and down by the nut on the end of the lever which goes to the spline on the end of the Torsion bar part of the front suspension. Measure this with a Tape Measure from the ground to the lower edge of the front wing above the wheel and make adjustments accordingly.
The rear ride height on a standard Murena is non-adjustable. If you want to adjust the rear ride height you would have to invest in new Coil Over Shock Absorbers with Adjustable Spring Platforms.
I suspect though that you just have worn dampers front and rear and that the rear springs have all sunk with age?
You would replace both sides of the car for this as standard practice.
Cheers, Graham

P.S. Read this from Roy's Website:-

http://www.matraclub.org.uk/files/Susp_Strg.pdf


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on August 07, 2021, 03:47:06 pm
Err there is not that much a Computer can do to help you with alignment on a standard Murena really.....
Only thing you can easily adjust is the "Toe in and Toe out" of the front wheels with the track rods. Never been near a computer for this myself, most tyre fitting shops in the U.K. have a portable alignment gauge that they do this with.  
The other item on the front that is adjustable is the "Camber" which you adjust by adding or removing the "Camber Shims" between the upper suspension arm bracket assembly. Castor is fixed.

Actually that is not true Graham.  The castor can be adjusted too, because if you take out or add more shims to the front or rear top wishbone fastening then it will move the top ball joint forwards or backwards and therefore adjust the castor angle!  Actually it is not just the number of shims, since there are three different thicknesses of shims, so it it the total thickness that is important.  You must take out (or add) the same thickness of shims at the front and back fastening of the top wishbone if you want to adjust the camber and not disturb the castor.

Quote
There is absolutely nothing that can be adjusted on the rear of the car except tyre pressure!

Correct, but the rear tracking should always be checked because if something is bent or worn it could be incorrect.
 
Quote
As for the front ride height, this can easily be taken up and down by the nut on the end of the lever which goes to the spline on the end of the Torsion bar part of the front suspension. Measure this with a Tape Measure from the ground to the lower edge of the front wing above the wheel and make adjustments accordingly.

Correct the front ride height can be adjusted up or down normally... but in this case I'm very much doubtful he will ever get anything satisfactory, as I've already explained to him owing to the wheel and tyres that have been fitted previously.  So that you can see the problem, these are what are fitted to his 1.6 Murena:

Front: 205/45ZR16 tyres on 7.5Jx16 wheels
Rear:  225/40ZR16 tyres on 9.0Jx16 wheels

These may look good cosmetically, put they are really too big for a Murena, particularly a 1.6 which doesn't have as much power or cornering potential, and I wouldn't want to drive or corner fast on them without a lot of careful testing, as they have altered the carefully designed Matra set up outside the correct parameters.

Now I did a calculation on these and the front is riding 16mm higher than the rear!  So the car has a 'nose up' stance which is bad for aerodynamics as well as upsetting all the carefully designed suspension set up done by Matra Automobiles to produce a superb handling car.

His front tyres will raise the front ride height compared to the original Murena 1.6 175/70HR13 tyres by 8 mm.  They would also be much closer to the front wheel arch and therefore there will be a more limited amount you can lower the front on the torsion bar setting.  Since the wheels are 7.5" wide, which are strictly a little too wide for 205 width tyres, I suspect the offset is incorrect with more to the outside also altering the contact patch centre of the tyres and again generally upsetting the way the car was designed.

His rear tyres will lower the rear ride height compared to the original Murena 1.6 195/70HR13 tyres by 8 mm.  Again the wheels are much too wide for those 225 width tyres, and certainly the offset must be incorrect otherwise the inside edges would foul the semi-trailing arms.  The front tyres could have been put on 6.5" and the rear tyres on 7" wide rims.  The greater offset will put a torque twist on the bearings and therefore the hubs and semi-trailing arms, as the contact patch is again outside of the original design spec.

Quote
The rear ride height on a standard Murena is non-adjustable. If you want to adjust the rear ride height you would have to invest in new Coil Over Shock Absorbers with Adjustable Spring Platforms.
I suspect though that you just have worn dampers front and rear and that the rear springs have all sunk with age?
You would replace both sides of the car for this as standard practice.
Cheers, Graham

P.S. Read the article from Roy's Website (as stated in my posting)

To sum up, I'm sorry but you simply can't truly diagnose any faults with this cars suspension with those inappropriate wheels and tyres!  Ideally you would put a set of original wheels and tyres on it first, whether that is the 70 profiles on 13" steel wheels or the 60 profile tyres on the 14" alloys, but if you use a set of alloys with 60 profile tyres, then you need to lower the front torsion bar setting to allow for the fact that even those 195/60HR14  rear tyres lowered the rear ride height and produced an incorrect front to rear ride height, which Matra forgot to allow for!  This is all explained in my article, where I strongly recommend using 55 profile 14" tyres on the front to bring the ride heights back to the original design specification.

A final point is that the Murena appears to have been designed to suit French roads with their, at times, heavily cambered surfaces.  In the U.K. where we drive on the left and any road camber is the opposite of French roads, I found when my car was brand new, that it would drift slowly into the kerb if you didn't pay attention to keep it straight.  So working in the trade with access to all the right equipment, I double checked all the suspension was correctly set as per the design spec.  It was, so I live with that slight drift.  However, whenever I took the car to France, which I have done now on various occasions, I found that the car tracks perfectly straight and I can take my hands off the wheel, even at 130 kph, and it runs perfectly straight!

Roy
P.S. as for the garage that can't do any checks because 'the computer doesn't know the car', that just proves how pathetic some mechanics and their understanding is now - if a computer can't tell them, then they have no idea!  Rubbish!  Even if I didn't have the actual spec. for any vehicle, I could still check it out fully, see what readings I got, and know if it was about right or something was patently wrong.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on August 09, 2021, 01:51:02 am
Ah ok I already feared as much. Is there a way to check the ride height? Because visually it looks like the nose is deeper than the rear but that could well be an optical illusion (as I also didn't notice it hanging off to one side). I can imagine that a previous owner or CarJoy already adjusted the suspension to make sure the nose isn't higher than the rear.

I actually just got in contact with a fellow Murena owner and mechanic that lives more or less in my general area (What are the odds of that? :o ).  Time for coffee and a more expert assessment of the adventure I have gotten myself into :D


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 09, 2021, 05:22:14 am
I'll see if I can make some scans from the worskhop manual. Measuring the ride height is not difficiult, but requires you get under the car while it's still sitting on the wheels, so you need help from someone with garage with a lift with ramps or a pit.

I'm told that most later 1.6 Murena's were fitted with incorrect rear springs when new and are sitting too high in the rear.

/Anders


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on August 10, 2021, 04:30:17 pm
Ah, no problem. I just checked the manual and found it. Section Ka0a 602 right?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on August 11, 2021, 01:34:35 am
@Anders
Picture of the spark plugs. Completely slipped my mind.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 11, 2021, 05:47:44 am
Ah, no problem. I just checked the manual and found it. Section Ka0a 602 right?

Ah, so you have it, great! :) I never got around to scanning as I browsed through my binder and realized I couldn't find where it says how to actually adjust the ride height. There are several sections talking about ride height, but I haven't found the place where they describe exactly how to measure and correct it. Have you been succesful?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on August 11, 2021, 08:39:55 pm
I haven't tried it yet, but I do think that the section I referred to is the one that describes it.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on August 31, 2021, 07:13:02 pm
Simple 14" steel but already much better   ;D
I do miss a little bit of the stiffer feel of the 16" so I may search for 15" alloys but I'm selling the AZEV set.
They also aligned it and informed me that the suspension on the left side might need more work than just new shocks but I'll look at that further with a mechanic.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on October 24, 2021, 05:56:19 pm
Is there any actual advantage to those engine hoods that replace the rear window?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: matramurena on October 24, 2021, 08:31:09 pm
Nope. It's just looks. Even my v6 has more then enough cooling with the window. Heard about lots of problems with rust because of rain comming in throug the airscoops of these engine hoods though.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on October 24, 2021, 09:51:06 pm
Yeah I can imagine! Well, that's a good argument to stay well away from them. I don't really like how most of them look but I noticed most body kits use them which made me wonder if it indeed either helped with cooling or forcing more air to the engine.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on October 25, 2021, 03:38:56 pm
Is there any actual advantage to those engine hoods that replace the rear window?

Not that I'm aware of, and they have one big disadvantage in the U.K. (or any country driving on the left).

They restrict the vision over the right shoulder when turning out of angled junctions, especially if they are combined with the slatted covers over the rear side windows, which I see often with those conversions.

It's possible there could be other problems too as the internal window between the cabin and the rear compartment was not designed to be an outside window, and there could be issues with air and water sealing, leading to possible lower cabin temperatures and water ingress in certain situations.  I would also suggest the aerodynamics will suffer slightly too.

Personally I think the Murena looks better with the glass too.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on October 26, 2021, 04:10:12 pm
Time for a new adventure! :S
So I noticed the gearbox is dripping fluid. I think it already did a while ago but only maybe one or two drops over a long time. If I recall correctly Roy remarked that the seals needed replacing when I posted some pictures of several of my question points last year.
I have the feeling I shouldn't hold this off much longer since the leaking seems to have increased. However I would like to limit the time I'm not able to use this car since it's also my main transport to go to work once or twice a week.
My idea was to get a spare gearbox and just swap it out with the current one so I could be back on the road quickly. However I assume a second hand salvaged gearbox may also need work no matter what the seller will claim about the condition.

That aside I think I've got the following main questions:
Are there any other cars that use the same gearbox as the 1.6 that I can search for if I can't find a 1.6 one?
Where can I find the parts I need to stop the gearbox from leaking? I tried Simon-auto who seem to have much more parts than Carjoy but I couldn't find it on the website.
And just to prepare myself mentally for the task ahead... How hard is this compared to e.g. replacing the seal on the rocker cover or the fuel and water pump?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: GP on October 26, 2021, 08:52:55 pm
Check this out.....

http://carjoy.nl/matra-shop/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=416


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on October 26, 2021, 10:01:07 pm
Yeah I seen them. Simon sells them as well at roughly the same price. And although they aren't super expensive, I hate to admit it but I can't afford that at the moment. I've seen second hand ones for a fraction of that. I realise they aren't going to be in an "as new" condition as the ones from Simon and carjoy but I hoped they could keep me driving for a while longer until I can repair the current one.  :-\


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: GP on October 27, 2021, 09:06:55 am
You could give Harry a call, he might be able to assist and get a price from him for a rebuild?  Obviously shipping is invovled.
I know he does the different 2.2 gearbox as he did mine some years ago,

https://ds-vitesse.com/en/

The job definitely isn't for a novice (probably with limited tools) and has no comparison whatsoever to replacing the seal on the rocker cover or the fuel and water pump.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on October 27, 2021, 10:40:14 am
Excellent! Thanks! I already had the suspicion I would need a hand here ;)


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on October 28, 2021, 05:22:38 pm
OK, small update, I'm going to check the gearbox with someone who has done revisions before. Its apparently probably just one or more of the seals. I'll also try and join in on the repairs where I can to try and learn as much as I can. Will update in a few weeks when we've had a look.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on November 02, 2021, 07:06:59 pm
Simple 14" steel but already much better   ;D
I do miss a little bit of the stiffer feel of the 16" so I may search for 15" alloys but I'm selling the AZEV set.
They also aligned it and informed me that the suspension on the left side might need more work than just new shocks but I'll look at that further with a mechanic.

What are the tyre sizes front and rear now on those 14" steel rims?  They just don't look right in the photo but I could be wrong.

Also the car looks to be sitting too high both front and rear, and it may be because it was raised to fit those larger AZEV wheel wheels and large tyres.  Is there a spare wheel and tyre in the front?  The car needs the weight of that for balance.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on November 02, 2021, 07:26:08 pm
Time for a new adventure! :S
So I noticed the gearbox is dripping fluid. I think it already did a while ago but only maybe one or two drops over a long time. If I recall correctly Roy remarked that the seals needed replacing when I posted some pictures of several of my question points last year.

I can't find the photos in this topic posting anywhere, were they in another posting?

I wanted to see where the leak appeared to be from, and what seals I recommended replacing.  If it is the drive shaft output seals then the transmission would need to come out or at least away from the engine I think, as the RH flange on the side next to the engine may not come off with the transmission still fitted.  The left side drive shaft seal could be changed with the transmission still fitted as that side can be accessed once the drive shaft is out.

Quote
My idea was to get a spare gearbox and just swap it out with the current one so I could be back on the road quickly. However I assume a second hand salvaged gearbox may also need work no matter what the seller will claim about the condition.

That aside I think I've got the following main questions:
Are there any other cars that use the same gearbox as the 1.6 that I can search for if I can't find a 1.6 one?
Where can I find the parts I need to stop the gearbox from leaking? I tried Simon-auto who seem to have much more parts than Carjoy but I couldn't find it on the website.
And just to prepare myself mentally for the task ahead... How hard is this compared to e.g. replacing the seal on the rocker cover or the fuel and water pump?

The complete transmission is not the same as on any other car, as it was designed to fit the mid-engined Murena.  There are parts that will be the same as the transmission is made up of parts that are fitted to various Talbot and Lancia cars but in each case they are adapted for the particular installation.

As for working on them with your very basic knowledge, no I would not recommend it.  The fact that you pose the question of how does it compare with changing the rocker cover or fuel pump gaskets (which are easy) shows you really don't have the knowledge or understanding to attempt this on your own, sorry.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on November 02, 2021, 08:08:08 pm
Hi Roy,

I'll check the wheels but the entire suspension is messed up according to the place that helped me fit the tires. They found the specs for the Murena alignment as well so they aligned it as best as they could which did help the overall feel but its still hanging off to the driver side.

I found someone who can help me with the transmission. He does his own maintenance on all his cars including a 1.6 since the 80s so I hope I'm in good hands there. And I have bought a spare 1.6 transmission just in case mine ever does go all wrong. I will have that one checked out as well.
The pictures where in another thread. Let me check if I can find it.

http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php/topic,3390.0.html


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on November 06, 2021, 08:37:54 pm
Hope this image is not too big...
Just noticed this image from the brochure. Never seen these wheels before. Does anyone know if these where ever sold with the Murena and where I could find them?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on November 07, 2021, 08:05:28 pm
These look like the standard wheels fitted to the 1.6.  Most people opted for the optional alloys (standard on the 2.2)  I wouldn't recommend using them because the tyre size for the rear wheels, 195/70 x 13, is no longer available  and the next size down that fits, 185/70 x 13 can cause the car to be a little tail happy.  I know this from personal experience.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on November 08, 2021, 03:31:25 pm
Hope this image is not too big...
Just noticed this image from the brochure. Never seen these wheels before. Does anyone know if these where ever sold with the Murena and where I could find them?

Those 13" diameter steel wheels were the standard fitment on a 1.6 Murena, as Peter has pointed out.  Some people opted for the 14" dia. alloy wheels, but you only got 4 on the car - the spare remained a steel 13" wheel and front tyre.  Owners may have fitted alloys later, and some of this may be since the 13" tyres are becoming difficult to obtain. They are still available but as they are classed as 'vintage' (which is strictly an incorrect term as vintage is pre-1930) then you have to pay more for them, but if you want originality, you expect to pay more.  All old car tyre sizes are produced in relatively small batches each year, usually during the tyre factory holiday periods by people like Michelin, then stored by them, and consequently 'classic' tyre sizes and patterns are obviously more expensive.

Even 14" tyre sizes are starting to get difficult now as modern cars have moved on to even larger diameters, and the largest I've seen currently are 22" diameter!  We have gone full circle from those large sizes on veteran & vintage cars, right down to 10" on (proper) Minis, and now all the way back up again.  Main reason today is to fit bigger and bigger brakes to cope with the massive (and OTT in my opinion) power and speed now obtainable.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on November 09, 2021, 10:16:58 am
Ah well that explains why I never seen them before I guess. Thanks for the additional information!!


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on November 23, 2021, 12:51:58 pm
Hi,

So my car wouldn't start last Saturday. Need to see if it's the starter motor or something else. I assume the starter but I'll have to try if I can somehow push start it by myself or pull start it with a tow car although I heard the towing rings are fragile?

In other news, I tried finding a new speedo cable and instrument panel.
(the conductive pins for the main connector are in a very bad state on mine and I suspect I won't be able to find just the plastic thing with the wiring?)

Regarding the speedo cable:
Got a quote for a new speedo cable for €75, even more than Carjoy sells them for and noticed that there's even "universal" speedo cable kits for around €10. Is there any reason to pay €55 for a speedo cable from Carjoy? Or can I just use one of those kits? I didn't see any alternatives listed on Roy's alt parts list either.

On to the starter motor. Since it's fairly likely that that's causing my starting problem I figured I'd swap it for a new one and have a stab at revising the old one. The manual steps seem fairly straightforward. However I tried to find the Valeo starter from Roy's part list and it seems to be largely out of stock. Does anyone know any others that will work on the X5J2A ? There's several parts sites that claim to have compatible ones like the 433304 Valeo or the 8EA 726 061-001 Hella. There is also some cheaper ones but these two are rated at a power of 1.2 and 1.05 KW respectively and the cheaper ones are only around 0.8 KW... figured a bit of power would be nice to have in this case?

Then finally the instrument panel.
I've gotten a quote for a used one at €125 which seems quite alright if it's otherwise in a better state than mine. Does anyone have experience what prices these normally go for?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on November 23, 2021, 07:16:20 pm
Hi,

So my car wouldn't start last Saturday. Need to see if it's the starter motor or something else. I assume the starter...

First question is: why do you assume it's the starter motor?  Since you then say "... or something else."  If it is something else, it would probably have symptoms totally different to a starter motor failure.

Does the starter motor spin the engine over?  If it does, it is not the starter.  If it doesn't, it could be the ignition switch, the wiring, the solenoid, the motor, the battery or the earth braid; but you don't say what it is doing or not doing so you have given us no clues to what is happening and what may be wrong.

Quote
"... or pull start it with a tow car although I heard the towing rings are fragile?

These cars don't have towing rings!  They do have hold down eyes.  Those two front and one rear hold down eyes are for quick easy fastening of the car on a transporter for delivery.  However, they do get used for towing, and as long as they haven't been damaged then they are fine for 'correct towing' and by that I mean you do not snatch at the towed car.

Quote
In other news, I tried finding a new speedo cable and instrument panel.
(the conductive pins for the main connector are in a very bad state on mine and I suspect I won't be able to find just the plastic thing with the wiring?)

Regarding the speedo cable:
Got a quote for a new speedo cable for €75, even more than Carjoy sells them for...  I didn't see any alternatives listed on Roy's alt parts list either.

There is no alternative!  You have a rare car.

These cables are unique to the Murena, like many other parts, and anything unique will cost far more than a normally mass produced part.  It drives from the back of the front hub, not the gearbox, which is the usual place for attaching a speedo cable.

Quote
On to the starter motor. Since it's fairly likely that that's causing my starting problem...

If you really have got a failed starter, then I have found two within 5 minutes on eBay, one at £72 and one at £80.

The Valeo part number 433304 is correct.  You have to be aware spare part numbers change and my website is not always up to date, but you can use cross referencing to check.  (I have now updated it)

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on November 25, 2021, 10:32:30 am
If it doesn't, it could be the ignition switch, the wiring, the solenoid, the motor, the battery or the earth braid; but you don't say what it is doing or not doing so you have given us no clues to what is happening and what may be wrong.
Good point! :D

Following checks done:
•Not turning over
•Battery measured good
•After turning the ignition the dashboard lights up
•Lamps all work
•Motor: runs

Still to be checked

•Solenoid: Will listen for a click when someone else turns the ignition. **update** I used my phone as a recording device to listen for the click and I didn't hear it so this could also be the problem.

How can I check the earth braid? I assume there's other options as well I've gone by assumption it's either the starter motor or the solenoid because another driver mentioned these are more likely to fail.


They do have hold down eyes.  Those two front and one rear hold down eyes are for quick easy fastening of the car on a transporter for delivery.
Aaaah yes that explains. I've used them before to tow though so I'll just go careful with them.


There is no alternative!  You have a rare car.
Righto, Carjoy/Simon it is then unless the local Simca Club warehouse still has one. Unfortunately they haven't replied to my e-mail yet.

The Valeo part number 433304 is correct. You have to be aware spare part numbers change.
That's great news and I didn't realise this at all so I'm glad to know it!

Thanks again Roy!


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on November 25, 2021, 04:34:05 pm
Car ran when I pull started it. Even the starter motor worked some of the time when the car was running. Parked in the garage for now. Starter engine shows no more sign of life once I turned off the car.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on November 25, 2021, 09:22:32 pm

Following checks done:
•Not turning over
•Battery measured good
•After turning the ignition the dashboard lights up
•Lamps all work
•Motor: runs

Still to be checked

•Solenoid: Will listen for a click when someone else turns the ignition. **update** I used my phone as a recording device to listen for the click and I didn't hear it so this could also be the problem.

If the engine doesn't turn over and there is no click from the starter solenoid, then you need to check the wire from the ignition switch is connected and providing 12 volts.  If the activation wire has come off the solenoid, then it gets no voltage and cannot work.  It could be that simple.  If it is connected, and there is 12 v there when the ignition key is in the start position, then it sounds like the solenoid may have failed.

Quote
How can I check the earth braid? I assume there's other options as well I've gone by assumption it's either the starter motor or the solenoid because another driver mentioned these are more likely to fail.

The earth braid is your main engine earth to carry the high current return from the starter.  It is connected from the transmission to the chassis underneath at the back.  As long as it is connected and in good order that is all you need to verify.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on November 28, 2021, 11:50:36 pm
OK let's talk wheels again. I am currently running winter tires on steel 14" fiat wheels and although nice I'm constantly on the look out for something new.
I searched the forums and found a thread from ages ago where you where all discussing getting wheels remade. As far as I could gather nothing has come from that. Additionally I noticed that Roy mentioned a preferred setup with 15" in front and 16" in the back.
We're a couple of years later now and I was wondering if I should indeed try and get wheels that mat h that set up because that might be ideal?

On a side note I saw a couple of very nice classic alfetta wheels for sale. All I could gather from the post was that they are 6J 14 H2 and have the correct bolt pattern. Even though they are 14 inch I would like to know if anyone knows they should fit the Murena. I figured I could use them for my winter tires...


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on November 30, 2021, 12:14:39 am
OK let's talk wheels again. I am currently running winter tires on steel 14" fiat wheels and although nice I'm constantly on the look out for something new.

It's not the wheels that you need to look at first, it's the available tyres.

If you intend putting bigger wheels and tyres on the car, you need to do two things actually.  First is to see what tyre sizes are easily available, and how they suit the car from the point of view of keeping the ride height front to rear, correct.  Then you can choose the wheels which will be easier.

I did suggest using 15" front and 16" rear as one possible option, but it was some time ago and without checking if suitable tyres would be available at the time, and since it was a while ago, and tyres change all the time, what would have applied then might not be available now anyway.  The fact is 16" front wheels are really too big for the Murena and 195 width tyres on the front made the car worse the one time I drove someone else's car with those on it.  The front of the Murena is so light relatively that it really doesn't need bigger tyres and therefore wheels.

Whilst the rear can easily take 15" or 16" wheels, there are a limited number or no 215 width tyres available depending on aspect ratio, so that means choosing either 205 or 225 widths and then you have problems matching the ride heights front to rear.

Quote
We're a couple of years later now and I was wondering if I should indeed try and get wheels that mat h that set up because that might be ideal?

As I said you must check what tyres are available first, and not the wheels, and then whether the tyres that would keep the ride heights correct are actually available.  This is more complex than just picking some nice looking wheels!  For the power output of a 1.6 especially, the Murena doesn't really need any bigger wheels and tyres.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: GP on November 30, 2021, 08:20:20 am
OPEONO

A good mail order place to start when looking for tyres. Used them often as I have a friendly tyre fitter locally.

https://www.oponeo.co.uk/?gclid=Cj0KCQiAkZKNBhDiARIsAPsk0WiaidvCTE-rK_2z7s378WcfBdn8xgN4NjZS_SOD_O3DkjBy_G6XRgcaArz7EALw_wcB


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on November 30, 2021, 05:23:14 pm
Ah, that is good to know, thanks for the explanations. Any advice on the Alfetta wheels?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on December 01, 2021, 01:27:08 am
Ah, that is good to know, thanks for the explanations. Any advice on the Alfetta wheels?

Whilst most Fiat, Lancia, Alfa wheels have the same 98mm PCD their offset is usually unsuited to the Matra.  The Murena should have 29mm offset.  The Italian wheels often have 38mm offset.  This will make the wheels sit further in, reducing the tracking width, and with wider wheels could mean the inside edges fouling the suspension as well as increasing side loading on the wheel bearings.  You really need something close to 29mm offset.

So you must check the offset of any wheels.  And remember, a larger offset moves the wheel, inwards not out.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on December 03, 2021, 06:15:50 pm
Ah perfect, I can remember this 👍 thanks!


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on December 13, 2021, 12:47:19 pm
Couldn't find a defect for the cable so took the old starter motor out. Apparently this is a Mitsubishi M3T19871 so that can be added to the compatibility list for the 1.6 :)


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on December 19, 2021, 09:02:28 pm
Tracked down a spare windscreen. The catch is that it's still attached to a car. Is there a good way to remove it? What tools should I use?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on December 20, 2021, 10:44:12 pm
Tracked down a spare windscreen. The catch is that it's still attached to a car. Is there a good way to remove it? What tools should I use?

Do you realise UROglas in the U.K. stock brand new Murena windscreens, usually less than £300 I believe.  I had a stone thrown up by an Audi A7 smash mine not that long ago and had the replacement fitted in less than 10 days through my insurance. UROglass do ship abroad too.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Matraman on December 21, 2021, 02:23:01 pm
Tracked down a spare windscreen. The catch is that it's still attached to a car. Is there a good way to remove it? What tools should I use?

I had a quote from Uroglas in March. A Murena bronze tinted one (the only type they had) was £307 inc VAT plus £84 delivery inc VAT.

In the end my windscreen fitter managed to find the leak and fix it without removing the screen. He said it was highly likely that he would crack the screen if he tried to remove it, so finding the leak was the best option. There's a chance the replacement screen you have found will have detached itself from the bonding glue already due to age, in which case you might get it out OK. In my case the screen is well bonded still but whoever fitted it missed a bit in the bottom right corner.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on December 21, 2021, 06:17:07 pm
OK good to know they're still available and at a reasonable price. This one is less than a third of it so I think I will take my chances and just work carefully and above al slowly and gently to get it out. Since the seller has some more spares I'm interested in I figured it would be worth to go over and have a look.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on December 31, 2021, 02:22:55 pm
Skipped the windscreen after all.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Gib on January 05, 2022, 03:02:02 pm
@ Grapes he doesn't have a gearbox does he?????


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on January 18, 2022, 04:01:19 pm
@ Grapes he doesn't have a gearbox does he?????
Not sure, he night have actually but he's in the Netherlands. I have seen a few pop up on our local 2nd hand website during 2021.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Gib on January 18, 2022, 04:08:09 pm
@grapes All sorted on the gearbox but a spare wouldn't go a miss and i do work out in Zuidland every now and then


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on January 18, 2022, 07:51:28 pm
Ah neat! Well I asked but the answer was no unfortunately but I will keep my eyes open.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on January 30, 2022, 10:12:55 pm
OK here we go again.
Tried figuring this out myself but haven't been able to.

So the old starter motor was the Mitsubishi M3T19871.
At first I thought I had to replace it with the Paris-Rhone D8E 147 which I found after a long search... to be not fitting... Not quite sure what the exact reason here is but I think I understand from other posts on this forum that there's several gearbox models for the 1.6? So I assume the Paris-Rhone D8E 147 fits one of the other gearboxes?

What I have now is a Bosch 0.986.013.210 which I assume is a later incarnation of the Bosch A 001 208 151?

However... the Mitsubishi M3T19871 was connected with 4 wires...
1 on the terminal numbered 1
1 on the terminal numbered 2
2 on the screw numbered 3
(See attachment)

The Bosch however does not have the terminal numbered 2.
At first I thought I should just unscrew the terminal numbered 2 from the Mitsubishi and add it to the short bolt coming from the solenoid housing but I searched generic starter motor diagrams and some seem to suggest that no wires should be connected to that one.
Undoubtedly foolishly I tried it without the wire connected which resulted to a fuse blowing out. (Hoping that's saved anything getting damaged.)
So now I'm guessing you guys will call me a fool for trying and hopefully telling me how I should connect the Bosch starter correctly.

I attached a picture I found online which made me doubt if I should attach the loose cable to the smaller screw. It looks similar to the Bosch connections I have.
And I attached a picture of the wire that I couldn't find a connection terminal for.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Murena1400 on January 31, 2022, 09:00:49 am
- On number 1 comes the starter solenoid (from the key), goes to the contact lip on the bosch starter.
- Number 2 goes to the diagnosis connector, its a 12v signal, not used on the bosch starter.
- Number 3 is the constant 12V from the battery, there is a large diameter lead connected to it that goes to the battery and a little smaller in diameter lead that goes to the alternator.

Your findings on the 2nd image are correct, you just dont connect number 2, there is no provision for it and its not a necessity as well, you could make a contact lip on the bolt that olds the wire to the starter itself but there is no need.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on February 01, 2022, 12:10:15 am
Ah brilliant!

I still need to figure out why it's blowing the fuse though. ???

I'll transfer the terminal to connect it to the other bolt just in case in the hopes that resolves matters.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on February 02, 2022, 11:32:26 am
OK here we go again.
Tried figuring this out myself but haven't been able to.

So the old starter motor was the Mitsubishi M3T19871.

At first I thought I had to replace it with the Paris-Rhone D8E 147 which I found after a long search...

Where did you find the Paris-Rhone D8E 147 was supposed to be the correct starter for a 1.6 Murena?  If you checked the Murena parts manual, the listed starter motors were:  M003T19871 (which you had)  M003T19771,  M003T39781,  or Paris-Rhone D9E43, D9E44 or D9E83.  There was no reference to any D8... at all so I'm not surprised that didn't fit.

Quote
... there's several gearbox models for the 1.6? So I assume the Paris-Rhone D8E 147 fits one of the other gearboxes?

As I think I've said before you shouldn't assume anything!  That only leads to trouble.  In the case of the Murena *NO* Paris-Rhone D8 model is listed for any Murena whether 1.6 or 2.2 model.  They all use a D9...  The 2.2 uses a different one obviously (D9E 45) but as you see that is also a D9 not a D8.

Quote
What I have now is a Bosch 0.986.013.210 which I assume is a later incarnation of the Bosch A 001 208 151?

I haven't checked out any Bosch starter motor cross reference, so i can't verify your selection but if it fits and works, that seems like it is probably OK.  On any 1.6 Murena the starter motor MUST have a support bracket to the block at the opposite end to the clutch bell housing, so as long as you have that, the mounting should be good.

Quote
However... the Mitsubishi M3T19871 was connected with 4 wires...
1 on the terminal numbered 1
1 on the terminal numbered 2
2 on the screw numbered 3
(See attachment)

The Bosch however does not have the terminal numbered 2.

Do you not have a wiring diagram?  If you had, but you must have one of my accurate diagrams because there are many on the internet that have lots of mistakes, and that circuit 17 to your number 2 is one of the very ones that is wrong as it uses the same circuit number as the hand brake warning light, which is clearly incorrect!

You would see from the wiring diagram that the circuit from your number 2 goes to the diagnostic socket and it is for diagnosing problems if you have a starter motor problem.  Therefore it isn't necessary for actually starting the engine, BUT it is very useful for an auto-electrician checking the starter and solenoid.

You can certainly leave the wire off, and it won't be a problem, but you lose the ability to check the starter and solenoid easily.  Without it you have to test at the starter itself which is more difficult to get to.

Quote
At first I thought I should just unscrew the terminal numbered 2 from the Mitsubishi and add it to the short bolt coming from the solenoid housing...

You don't understand enough about electrics, so you should never start modifying things you don't understand!  That often leads to mistakes, damage and possibly injury.

Quote
Undoubtedly foolishly I tried it without the wire connected which resulted to a fuse blowing out.

Please tell me which fuse has blown?  If you had checked a correct wiring diagram, and understood car electrics, you would known there are NO fuses in the starter motor circuit!

So I am really curious to know which fuse has blown and how!

It sounds like you have another problem or someone has connected the wiring incorrectly.

I repeat, there should be *no fuses* in the starter motor circuit, so what has blown?  Replacing a fuse that has nothing to do with the starter circuit will not solve whatever has caused it to blow, certainly not by changing the starter motor!

You must understand what you are doing.

Roy


Update: I have done a cross check and the Bosch 0 986 013 210 does appear to be correct.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on February 03, 2022, 10:26:19 am
Hi Roy,

Ah that's good to know about there's not being a fuse in the starter circuit.

I'm not entirely sure which fuse went but it was either the dashboard instruments one or one of the window motor ones.

The D8E is mentioned in the Dutch workplace manual. I suspect that might have been used for our 2.2 engines then.
I'll attach a part of the scan for your reference. I hope it's not too big.

I'll have another look when the weather clears up a bit again. The window motors had been giving me some troubles so perhaps I should use this as motivation to check them out.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on February 06, 2022, 12:43:47 pm
OK, tried starting again. First try the power went dead but the fuses where fine. Then I took the minus from the battery and back on, turned the key a few times and the starter worked perfectly. Took a while to get the engine going but at least I can drive it to the guy who offered to help me with it now for a full check up.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on February 12, 2022, 11:57:40 am
Aaand yesterday it didn't want to start again. The road assist checked the battery and we tried jump leads but couldn't get it to work so it was towed and I'll get it back on Monday.
Turning the key we could hear a click but only very faintly. The road assist guy thinks that either the new starter is also seized or there might be another electrical problem. Guess I'll have to remove the starter and bench test it after all.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on February 12, 2022, 03:23:22 pm
Aaand yesterday it didn't want to start again. The road assist checked the battery and we tried jump leads but couldn't get it to work so it was towed and I'll get it back on Monday.
Turning the key we could hear a click but only very faintly. The road assist guy thinks that either the new starter is also seized or there might be another electrical problem. Guess I'll have to remove the starter and bench test it after all.

This is exactly where the original diagnostic connection, which so many dismiss, would have aided diagnosing problems with the starter solenoid and motor electrically.

If it is a new starter motor and it is faulty, at least that should be under warranty.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: matramurena on February 14, 2022, 09:24:04 pm
You could try the "good old way" by shorting the startersolenoid and see if it works. :) Or the bit safer way of setting a startbooster directly on the starter and turning the booster on. If you get to the connectors of the starter that is..


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on February 14, 2022, 10:16:12 pm
Yep, makes sense.

Thanks for the tip about connecting the booster to the starter. That should be something I can get to fairly easy.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on February 16, 2022, 04:52:19 pm
So the towing depot delivered the car back on Monday and on Tuesday I thought "Let's try and start it just to see what happens" and then it started without any problems :/
Actually it started with less problems than I experienced since I got it back on the road again.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on February 17, 2022, 09:43:15 am
Found an article about common problems with cold weather starting failure which got me thinking.
It mentions:
"If you jump start your car and the engine dies immediately, this points to a faulty alternator.

You may also notice your headlights and dashboard lights flickering, the car’s gauges moving in a jerky manner – and even a burning smell filtering into the cabin if the alternator has recently overheated.
"

Now we couldn't jump start it in the first place but it did remind me of the fact that when I turn the headlamps on the dashboard lights dim and when I used the power windows, the same thing happens. And I might be misremembering but I think recently I had the radio on and the wipers and lights and when I tried to turn the high beams on the engine died.
Regardless of the starting issue this doesn't seem right and I was going to inquire about that but forgot. Now I'm thinking this might be linked in some way.

Since it's mostly raining and horrible out anyway I probably don't want to roll the windows down anyway and figured it might be a good time to clean the motors. I assume I can remove these without the windows rolling down by themselves right?.

I seem to recall reading there's no replacement for them, is this still the case? And what about the rest of the mechanism? The plastic around the cable broke on one side and I remember last year when you keep holding the switch it would rattle and stop working. Would love to get the power windows working again on both sides.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on February 17, 2022, 02:33:46 pm
Found an article about common problems with cold weather starting failure which got me thinking.
It mentions:
"If you jump start your car and the engine dies immediately, this points to a faulty alternator.

You may also notice your headlights and dashboard lights flickering, the car’s gauges moving in a jerky manner – and even a burning smell filtering into the cabin if the alternator has recently overheated.
"


I don't know who wrote those statements, but they are wrong, and far too simplistic!

Take the first - "if it dies immediately it, points to an alternator fault"  A load of rubbish.  There are loads of reasons why an engine might die immediately after starting, and these could be fuel, ignition, timing, etc. and it would also depend on what type ignition was fitted, so without stating what system it is talking about, the statement as I said is meaningless.  The alternator only starts charging after the engine is running, and if the battery was too flat that it needed a jump start from a booster of one sort or another, then the first thing the alternator has to do is up its output to try to recharge the battery.  But it is not the first thing you would be checking other than to see that the voltage has come up to charge the battery.  But the battery must first have been checked thoroughly to make sure it has no faults, and the circuits to see if there are any problems, because the first thing to know is why has the battery gone flat?  There are also different types of batteries and some need different charging rates, so if for instance someone fitted a calcium silver battery that is meant for a modern Ford, then it needs a higher charge voltage than the standard alternator on a Murena can provide.

Sorry Dan, but you understand so little about the intricacies of cars from what we have seen here that you cannot know all the things that technicians have been taught and learn over many years, and it would take many years to try to teach you.  Even after over 35 years in the trade, I spent 9 weeks solid training at Renault U.K. to become one of their RTEs that can handle all the latest network computer cars and the latest electronics and all the special tools we need to help us diagnose problems.

The second statement talks about an alternator that has recently been overheated.  Checking the alternator would not be the first thing to check if an engine stalled immediately after starting unless that coincided with removing the battery from which you jump started it.  First why was the alternator suspected to have been overheated and how does anyone tell that?  Did it look burnt?  I wouldn't expect you to know or answer this, I'm just telling you something which you probably haven't even considered, to show there is far more to this than those statements.

You haven't stated why it was better after it was returned to you, if it was better.  Did you even ask them what they found?  If I had any idea what they had done, it might, (or might not) give me some idea why you were having problems starting it even when you tried jump starting it without success.


Quote
Since it's mostly raining and horrible out anyway I probably don't want to roll the windows down anyway and figured it might be a good time to clean the motors. I assume I can remove these without the windows rolling down by themselves right?.

What have I said before about assuming things?  You NEVER assume anything.

You are totally wrong because you need to remove the windows before you can remove the motors and mechanisms which are one assembly.  And there is a special way to remove these WITHOUT cutting any of the door internal panel.

You can still get these motors which were made by Rockwell and fitted to a number of different cars but each had their own design mechanism, and the motor you might get might not fit straight into the Murena mechanism without some changes.

The reason for the rattle is that the worm and wheel were disengaging one another and slipping, owing to the housing not being held tight to the mechanism.  That can be fixed.

But the reason they may be slow or not working at all can be due to a variety of problems and you have to track down which is causing them, from poor wiring, contacts, switches, earths, worn brushes or corrosion in the motors, stiff mechanisms, etc. etc.  You cannot just jump in and say I need to get the motors out and fix them when you don't even know the cause of the problem yet.

You are not a trained technician, and there are trained mechanics here (by here, I mean in Europe, not the forum) with years of experience that still don't understand enough to know how to tackle a Murena because it is rare and to some extent different.  Only 2 weeks ago I had to sort out a problem on a Murena caused by a mechanic that no idea what was wrong, and he had cost the owner much money without fixing the problem, by doing some major expensive work that was totally unnecessary.

This forum is not here to train you to become a mechanic.  A Murena today needs to be owned by someone who has a working knowledge and tools to do the jobs necessary, or is a trained professional such as myself.

Before you ask a question here, do you even bother to search my FAQ pages or all the forum for previous topics on the subject, and the answers they may provide?  Do you understand the wiring of the electric window system?  Have you checked any of it for poor contacts, wiring, fuses, relay etc. etc.   Or the amount of current being drawn and under what circumstances?  As with all problems, you collect the information in detail first, both from the car, and sources such as the other posters here, analyse it all to decide where the most likely causes are and then check them out.  Only then if you are finding it difficult to work out what is wrong, should you start asking questions.

Finally, I should point out that one topic should be for one subject and the heading reflects that.  You started this posting asking about the electronic dipstick, and for anything else a new posting should have been started IF there was no answer already here on that subject.  You are asking about all different things under one topic and posting.  That should not be the way, and it makes it more difficult to search for answers as yours are covering many subjects, that causes the posting to go to many pages, and the topics are all mixed up.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: matramurena on February 17, 2022, 09:00:05 pm
Well, I think you are being a little harsh here Roy. A Murena is rare, but the mechanics an sich are far from exotic. Anyone who is capable and willing to learn should be OK with most repairs. Basic knowledge is of course required. You will learn a lot by working on a Murena. Not neccesarily in the best, fastest or easiest way, but if your interested and have the basic skills you will be all right in the end.  :) :)

In this case, I think cleaning the motors of the windows is not the first thing to do. If you could not start the car with the booster on the battery but it startet first time with a direct connection then you might want to check your starter-solenoid. However since it is your 2nd starter and you said that it would work again after removing the battery lead for some time there might be a bigger issue here.

Does it start now with the battery instead of the booster? If it does not work you could measure if you have 12V comming into the starter main lead. Also check if you have a good connection from the starter ground to the battery. If its OK you can measure for 12V on the solenoid when you turn the key. If you have that, measure the secondary side as well.

There are multiple components that can effect you circuit and it is impossible to say what is going on without standing around the car and checking things, however from what you said my geuss right now would be a bad negative lead from the starter to the battery. >This would explain jumping leads not to function and a booster directly to the starter to work just fine. Easy to check this and costs you no money!  ;D You could even take one of your jump cables and connect it directly from the starter ground to you battery. (if it is long enough) see what that does.

Lots of luck!


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on February 18, 2022, 10:23:58 am
Well, I think you are being a little harsh here Roy. A Murena is rare, but the mechanics an sich are far from exotic.

I totally agree with you, but that is what makes all these mistakes by supposedly professional mechanics with years of experience so much more incredible.  I have had to sort out so many problems over the last few years caused by professional mechanics who have cost the owners a great deal of time and money, without fixing their cars, and even in one case leaving the customer with an unusable car, when it had been fine when it went into the garage!

They had still charged one over £1,000 and another over £2,000 which they would like to get back but taking it through legal channels costs even more money without a guarantee they will get it all back.  And all this work was done for nothing because they diagnosed these incorrectly in the first place.  And in case you are wondering, one of these was an old Peugeot and another an old Ford, neither very complex and not as rare or unknown as a Murena!

So yes it may be a little harsh, but I'm trying to get across to Dan that without any real basic knowledge and relying on others who I know from years of experience, are often not really competent themselves; of the monumental task he has ahead of him, because he has picked a rare and unusual car which most professionals do not know or understand even as much as a common model.

This could easily cost him a great deal more than it should.

We all learn (or should) from our mistakes and from knowing the solutions to things.  So anytime work is done by someone else, you should get an invoice with a full explanation and if not you must ask what the fault was and how it was cured, and make a note of it.  So far he hasn't given us any idea of how the starting was cured - if it has been cured really.  Therefore I can't tell if it has been overcome.

As I keep saying, you collect all the data, analyse it, then work to the solution.  I know from over 45 years of experience in the motor trade, probably over 80% of mechanics are not capable of doing this sufficiently.  So I'm trying to help by cross checking what was done, but I need all the details first.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: MatraIan on February 18, 2022, 11:49:23 am
I have to say that the FAQ pages on Roy's website are invaluable,
 https://www.matraclub.org.uk/index2.html
I visit his site regularly just to if there are any new articles and updates.
I always look there first and on here, Matrasport.dk and also https://www.matraforum.de/mf/ and translate to research things if i have any maintenance work to do or problems with my Murena. It has helped me no end in restoring my car and Roy's advice is second to none.
I am not a trained mechanic but do have an engineering background and tend to approach things logically and step by step and not jump to conclusions.
Too many mechanics rely on the diagnostics, I had an issue with a car and it had been 'diagnosed' by Ex main dealer mechanics and quoted between £800 and £1800 depending on what they found. To avoid un-necessary expense i paid to have a main dealer look at it and was quoted around £2000 which was to fix something totally un-related to the previous diagnosis. I spent a few hours on the internet researching the issues and did a few checks myself, then went to a one man garage mechanic ( a friend from a motor club)  to discuss and it was fixed for £260 and has been fine since. 

DAN - you should look at Roy's website and read every page !! Seroiusly, every page, I did this before i actually bought my first Murena ( i have had 2, a 1.6 and a 2.2S) and learnt a lot, but also have a play around on this site using the search facility.
I have found so many things to help me in the past, and most things you come accross will already have been a problem for someone else.
I thinks Roy's comments are quite valid even if they may seem a little harsh but even after Roy confirmed the D8 alternator was not fitted to any Murena you still said you assumed it was fitted to the 2.2's.
You will spend a lot of time and money if you keep making assumptions without checking the facts and logically working through things from the start. Been there - done that when i was younger!

Good luck Dan with your continuing project.
ps You can use this forum to PM people about specific things if you want to.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Matraman on February 19, 2022, 04:18:22 pm
I agree that Roy's pages are well worth reading before you embark on a Murena job if, like me, you're not mechanically trained. Sometimes I couldn't find what I needed to know so I asked Roy at that stage and always received a very complete answer.

On that basis I managed to rebuild the engine, replace the whole cooling system, refurbish the brake calipers, replaced the brake lines and do many many other smaller jobs, most of which were in Roy's pages. Not bad for a nutritionist!


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on February 20, 2022, 04:42:15 pm
Hi all, yeah Roy is right in mentioning that I should have researched better. Or in any case questioning if I did any research. I've grown very used to fast moving chat rooms for trouble shooting anything really so I have stopped doing extensive research. In other words grown lazy.
Also, indeed I know very very little about cars. Keen to learn though. When I bought the Murena I wasn't looking for it, I hardly knew it. Was looking for a drivable easy project and only realised that the Murena isn't really ideal after I bought it, but I have it now and I'm not planning to give it up either.

@Roy: The article I found on rac.co.uk.

I'll start by checking the ground as suggested and I will read Roy's pages. The window motors where a bit of an after thought since I wanted to do them at some point and wondered if I could do them easily whilst having the vehicle operational. Now I know I can't.
I will try to stop assuming 😅.

@MatraIan The D8 was mentioned in the Dutch workplace manual and since Roy mentioned the D9 is a match for the 2.2 I thought it wouldn't be far fetched if the D8 would be in the Dutch workplace manual because of the 2.2.
There are two mentioned in my original Dutch workplace manual, the Paris Rhone D8 and one from Bosch. I now know that the Bosch fits the 1.6 and the Paris Rhone doesn't. So if the Paris Rhone D8 is not in the manual for the 2.2.... Then why would it be listed in the Dutch manual?

Oh yes and the car was only towed, no one looked at it. It didn't start, not with the booster, not with the jump leads it got towed to the place where I could get a car from the insurance and after the weekend they simply dropped it off at my place and the next day I tried starting it and it worked. That's all I know really.

I think that's all for now. I will read through the replies again another time to check if I missed anything.

Thanks!




Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on February 23, 2022, 11:56:14 am
Hi all, yeah Roy is right in mentioning that I should have researched better. Or in any case questioning if I did any research. I've grown very used to fast moving chat rooms for trouble shooting anything really so I have stopped doing extensive research. In other words grown lazy.
Also, indeed I know very very little about cars. Keen to learn though. When I bought the Murena I wasn't looking for it, I hardly knew it. Was looking for a drivable easy project and only realised that the Murena isn't really ideal after I bought it, but I have it now and I'm not planning to give it up either.

No, you certainly don't need to give it up, as it is a nice looking car, and you are keen to learn which is good, but to save yourself being ripped off by even professional garages or mechanics who may not be good enough to understand a rare care like the Murena, you need to understand the reason for faults and what actually needs to be done to rectify them.

Quote
Oh yes and the car was only towed, no one looked at it. It didn't start, not with the booster, not with the jump leads it got towed to the place where I could get a car from the insurance and after the weekend they simply dropped it off at my place and the next day I tried starting it and it worked. That's all I know really.

OK, now I know there was no work done really, to cure the non-starting, the fact that it started the next day for you, shows it was probably a poor connection somewhere, and since you mention moving the earth contact on the battery at one point, it is possible if the connectors are original they need changing now as they cannot be clamped as tight as they should be.  This is a common problem with those original lead battery clamps - they get so that even with the bolt as tight as you can get it, the clamp cannot tighten on the battery post securely as the clamp has fully closed with no air gap.  A battery clamp should have a gap between the ends even when tight so that the bolt can pull the clamp onto the post securely and have a 'reserve' to tighten it more if things get worn.

Take a read of my large posting on Electrics, and see the section about Earthing, where I describe this.  Read it all through carefully as the whole of it is important.  And if you haven't got an AVO meter it would be a good investment, even if you have to learn how to use it.  Being able to measure voltage, and resistances and continuity is so important when checking electrical issues.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on March 08, 2022, 03:52:02 pm
Thanks Roy, it is indeed time for a new earth wire from the battery. I've tightened it as best I can but I've had a look together with another Murena owner and he said the same thing. He also did a more thorough inspection of the underside on his bridge and was overall very happy with the general state of the car. He is going to help me with the carb and have a more in depth look at the engine. We also found out that the springs on the rear where not matching which explained the slight lean (left sits a whole 2cm lower in fact).
We didn't look at the windows and the other electronics yet at this point but over-all everything seems to be in rather good shape.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Murena1400 on March 09, 2022, 11:01:18 pm
Thanks Roy, it is indeed time for a new earth wire from the battery. I've tightened it as best I can but I've had a look together with another Murena owner and he said the same thing. He also did a more thorough inspection of the underside on his bridge and was overall very happy with the general state of the car. He is going to help me with the carb and have a more in depth look at the engine. We also found out that the springs on the rear where not matching which explained the slight lean (left sits a whole 2cm lower in fact).
We didn't look at the windows and the other electronics yet at this point but over-all everything seems to be in rather good shape.

Be aware that a 1600 has 2 different springs on the rear from the factory, which gives a 14mm difference between the 2.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on March 14, 2022, 02:12:42 pm
Be aware that a 1600 has 2 different springs on the rear from the factory, which gives a 14mm difference between the 2.

I was aware that the Murena 1.6 had different coil springs at the rear, as the two are listed in the parts manual, (32729800 RH and 32852300 LH) but I always wondered why they never gave a colour coding for them, which manufacturers usually do and Matra themselves did for the different front torsion bars.

However, if they are different lengths that would be one possible reason for not having a colour code to distinguish them, but that is not a good or foolproof way as you might only have one spring to hand, without its part number, so how would you know which side it should be fitted? A difference of only 14mm would be easy to miss, especially if different springs got mixed up in the parts department!

To which side was the longer spring fitted? Do you know? Where was this information listed? Neither the official Matra Workshop Manual nor Parts Manual make any reference to which was the longer coil spring, which seems like a gross oversight and likely to cause a wrong fitting as may be the case with Dan's car.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on March 14, 2022, 07:37:50 pm
Logic would suggest that the longer is fitted on the RH side to compensate for the camber on a LHD car.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on March 16, 2022, 12:37:55 am
Ah, I'm not sure if there is in fact one longer than the other. All I know is that it leans at the left rear because we measured it. The carpet over the top where the screws are under according to the manual seems undamaged and original. Maybe it's supposed to be lower on the left rear? Or maybe 40 years of driving with only a driver has weighted it more down on that side?



Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Murena1400 on March 16, 2022, 10:01:15 am
Be aware that a 1600 has 2 different springs on the rear from the factory, which gives a 14mm difference between the 2.

I was aware that the Murena 1.6 had different coil springs at the rear, as the two are listed in the parts manual, (32729800 RH and 32852300 LH) but I always wondered why they never gave a colour coding for them, which manufacturers usually do and Matra themselves did for the different front torsion bars.

However, if they are different lengths that would be one possible reason for not having a colour code to distinguish them, but that is not a good or foolproof way as you might only have one spring to hand, without its part number, so how would you know which side it should be fitted? A difference of only 14mm would be easy to miss, especially if different springs got mixed up in the parts department!

To which side was the longer spring fitted? Do you know? Where was this information listed? Neither the official Matra Workshop Manual nor Parts Manual make any reference to which was the longer coil spring, which seems like a gross oversight and likely to cause a wrong fitting as may be the case with Dan's car.

Roy

There is a service information sheet in the 1981 binder that describes the modification of the springs on the 1.6L
I believe the longer spring is the right one, but I will have to check the sheet to be sure.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: JL on March 17, 2022, 02:28:47 pm
It would seem to make sense that on a UK car the longer spring is fitted to the LHS, road camber and driver weight etc.
Cheers
John


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on March 17, 2022, 04:40:14 pm
It does make sense, but only if you swap the torsion bars as well.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on March 17, 2022, 09:03:30 pm
...
To which side was the longer spring fitted? Do you know? Where was this information listed? Neither the official Matra Workshop Manual nor Parts Manual make any reference to which was the longer coil spring, which seems like a gross oversight and likely to cause a wrong fitting as may be the case with Dan's car.

Roy

There is a service information sheet in the 1981 binder that describes the modification of the springs on the 1.6L
I believe the longer spring is the right one, but I will have to check the sheet to be sure.

I have the official service manual and the issued service updates but there is nothing in mine about this spring change as I checked before I posted.  However, it would be useful to know the answer, because we know the driver side (i.e. the left) has a stronger torsion bar at the front to compensate for the driver's offset weight on the left.  So if I had to guess, I might say the longer coil spring would also be for the left side.

However, for France, which the Murena was primarily designed for, they tend to have a heavy camber on the right, so it could have been meant for the right hand side.  Since the 2.2 has the same rear springs both sides, but a heavier engine that is predominantly on the right that might suggest it didn't need a longer spring, but maybe the 1.6 did.

So until I see it in writing, which side this longer spring was to be fitted, the jury is still out.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on March 29, 2022, 09:07:20 pm
Found out the main reason for my windows not working is at least one if not more  wire breaks.
Spent some time checking wires under the dashboard last weekend. It's a mess down there. I hope i can find out more about what goes where in the manual and hopefully replace some wires without too much hassle. It's annoying a lot of cabling is in a harness which makes it harder to do any repairs on single wires.

By the way, I noticed Carjoy finally has the new fuse boards that work with blade fuses. I remember Roy asking after them a while ago.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on March 31, 2022, 02:09:05 pm
Found out the main reason for my windows not working is at least one if not more  wire breaks.
Spent some time checking wires under the dashboard last weekend. It's a mess down there. I hope i can find out more about what goes where in the manual and hopefully replace some wires without too much hassle. It's annoying a lot of cabling is in a harness which makes it harder to do any repairs on single wires.

By the way, I noticed Carjoy finally has the new fuse boards that work with blade fuses. I remember Roy asking after them a while ago.

Yes those new fuse boards have been available for a while, and I saw them when they first appeared, but thanks Dan.  For anyone that needs a new board they should be good but they are a little more expensive, as you would expect.  I can however provide a cheaper alternative if your original board is not too bad - I can repair minor track breaks, replace the poor continental plastic and wire fuses, with the older English glass fuse holders and fuses which have a much better positive contact, and re-tin all the contact patches.  If the edge push on terminals in the plugs are poor or broken, I can replace them with soldered on sockets and plugs.

Glass fuses:
http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3315.0;attach=6732;image

Replacement board connectors:
http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2986.0;attach=6826;image

As for your poor wiring, it does not surprise me I'm afraid, as so many Murena have been messed around with over the years.

The original hand books had the wiring included but in a format that some people cannot work with, and the factory workshop manuals had the more conventional type wiring diagrams.  But both had mistakes, so you should not rely on them entirely especially if you are not an auto electrician and do not fully understand car wiring.

Many of the diagrams freely available on the internet are even worse as they doubled the number of faults in the factory diagrams by being careless!  Mine are the only totally correct wiring diagrams since over the years I have painstakingly corrected all the faults.  Furthermore the factory only ever made two diagrams, one for the 1.6 and one for the 2.2 model, but that is insufficient to cover all the variations in reality.

So I always ask for certain information first, and then provide a diagram that should be correct for that particular car, and the diagram has the chassis number or VIN printed on it to show it is correct for that car only.  If the car has had the wiring modified from standard, I cannot cover those changes obviously, although if the owner can provide accurate additional wiring covering the modifications, I could probably incorporate them.

If you wanted a hard colour copy, I do charge a small fee to cover costs, but if you only want a graphic file which you can get printed yourself I don't charge for a standard diagram.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on April 01, 2022, 01:11:45 am
I printed the wiring diagram you sent me last year and I'll have a look at this with someone who has more experience with these when the weather gets better. So far most other things at least seem to work except for both the front fog lights which I'll look at after I sorted the windows someday.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on April 26, 2022, 02:56:45 pm
Managed to get the passenger window working again by switching all the window switches for second hand BX switches. Minor victory :)
Also put some WD40 in the motor and friction parts while I was at it since I read elsewhere on this forum that people had success with that and so far it seems indeed to smoothen things up a bit.

New problem arose though. There seems to be no power on the switch on the passenger side now. A bit mysterious because there definitely was power on that a few days ago when I disassembled it to find the problem. Any hints where I should look?
The passenger side window switch on the driver side works the way it should by the way.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on April 27, 2022, 09:43:25 am
Managed to get the passenger window working again by switching all the window switches for second hand BX switches. Minor victory :)
Also put some WD40 in the motor and friction parts while I was at it since I read elsewhere on this forum that people had success with that and so far it seems indeed to smoothen things up a bit.

New problem arose though. There seems to be no power on the switch on the passenger side now. A bit mysterious because there definitely was power on that a few days ago when I disassembled it to find the problem. Any hints where I should look?
The passenger side window switch on the driver side works the way it should by the way.

If you check out my FAQ (where it is fully described) and the wiring diagram, as I've said many times, BOTH window switches for the passenger door window have to work fully for the passenger window to work as they are linked.  So first step is always to make sure ALL window switches function correctly.

So for instance there is no earth to the passenger door - the earth is via the drivers door switch.  Also you will see that the power for the drivers door window switch is 3B whilst that for the passenger door is 3A.  Trace those back to the circuit board and you will see they come from different terminals.  This is why you always need to refer to a wiring diagram.

The switches themselves are quite common and easy to get, but not all switches are internally wired the same so you need to be careful.  However the Citroën switches are probably the same as PSA would be using the same supplier.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on April 27, 2022, 08:32:55 pm
Ah I haven't tracked them to the cirquit board. I did double check all the switches. I will start there. Thanks!


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on April 28, 2022, 07:16:19 pm
At first glance I didn't notice but the fuse was corroded and a bit loose so I put a new one in and made sure it fit and that solved it! ;D


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 03, 2022, 05:36:34 pm
Question time again.
I've had the car in the driveway for the last week since it's not starting.

What works: The starter works and the coil sends power to the distributor and the rotor rotates.

That's unfortunately where it ends. I fitted a new rotor, dizzy cap, HT leads (conveniently sold as a package at Simon in Germany) and plugs.
I checked for sparks between the HT lead and the plug and couldn't see any so somewhere after the power goes into the dizzy cap something's not working.

What to check next (or which parts to replace)?
Manual is referring to a Hall Effect Ignition Tester for more or less that entire chapter. I don't have that however.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on May 03, 2022, 08:16:22 pm
Check for sparks between the coil and the distributor.  If all the connections are good,then there's really only three things it can be if there's no spark.  The coil, the ignition amplifier and the Hall Effect sensor in the dostributor.  If you don'thave the means to test them,then the only means to find the culprit is by substitution.  A spare coil and ignition amplifier are useful spares to have, carrying a spare distributor round with you is perhaps a bit OTT, though I wished I'd had one when my Hall Effect sensor failed the week before last.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 03, 2022, 08:56:16 pm
Ah wonderful, that should get me further 👍 thanks!
Will look into the amp and sensor then.
P.s. I'm also checking this http://www.matraclub.org.uk/faqg.html 😉
So I'll make sure to follow the advice thereon.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 01, 2022, 10:44:05 pm
Small update:
Fitted yet another coil and a 123 Ignition dizzy from Politecnic and it's running again! Albeit with tons of plops and bangs (more than I had before she stopped working) but it's one step ahead :)

Next: smooth running engine  :-\

Side question: if I would remove the antenna, how would I best close off the hole that it would create? Just treat it with a fibreglass repair kit or are there other easy solutions?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on June 02, 2022, 03:27:01 pm
Sounds like a timing problem, should be 10-12 deg. BTDC.  Is the firing order coreect, should be 1-3-4-2 and the distributor rotates clockwise.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: GP on June 03, 2022, 08:00:28 am
Sounds like a timing problem, should be 10-12 deg. BTDC.  Is the firing order correct, should be 1-3-4-2 and the distributor rotates clockwise.

As Pete rightly says and everything is checked out O.K. and the firing order is correct. I suggest the HT Leads in the right positions on the distributor cap to the correct Spark Plug are marked somehow for future simple reference......

NB: I use tiny coloured ty-wraps on the leads near the distributor cap and mark the cap outlets with a small felt tip pen with the corresponding number of ty-wraps and their correct piston position.

Or something like this:-

https://www.gsparkplug.com/1-pack-8mm-cable-ht-plug-lead-numbers-markers-1-to-8-yellow.html?gclid=CjwKCAjwv-GUBhAzEiwASUMm4nhITlL8ez6jT5pDKvI_vdRJ8ziZkf41XYCL3JQb6jg1-rqjIzvESBoCnD4QAvD_BwE

Hope it gets sorted soon..... :)


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 04, 2022, 02:12:30 am
Just got new HT leads so I'll go with tie wraps, that's a very good tip.

It's currently running a bit smoother. Basically it's back to "normal" so I assume the month without operation might have done something to make it behave like that. I was advised by another owner to have a look at tuning the carb so I'll look into that next when I have the time.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: GP on June 04, 2022, 08:34:52 am
Just got new HT leads so I'll go with tie wraps, that's a very good tip.

It's currently running a bit smoother. Basically it's back to "normal" so I assume the month without operation might have done something to make it behave like that. I was advised by another owner to have a look at tuning the carb so I'll look into that next when I have the time.

Do you have fresh petrol in the tank?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on June 04, 2022, 11:27:02 am
Tuning the carb is the last stage of any tuning.  Get the ignition timing and the valve clearances correct first.  Make sure the air cleaner is clear. Then clean the jets in the carb and finally tune it.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on June 04, 2022, 03:00:15 pm
Just got new HT leads so I'll go with tie wraps, that's a very good tip.

It's currently running a bit smoother. Basically it's back to "normal" so I assume the month without operation might have done something to make it behave like that. I was advised by another owner to have a look at tuning the carb so I'll look into that next when I have the time.

There is another unusual problem with some Bosch distributors that can be missed, so it would be good to visually check the hall electronics out carefully, particularly the reluctor and sensor.  The 1.6 has a different design to the 2.2 but you need to make sure the reluctor ring and fingers are not touching as they go through the gap in the sensor, and getting worn away.  Check for any free play in the rotor shaft owing to worn bushes, as that allows the shaft to rotate off centre and that is when the fingers will touch and wear away or even break off.

For those with 2.2 and Bosch distributors, the reluctor ring fingers can get out of phase after slipping around, and the rotor arm is no longer aligned with the contacts in the distributor cap at the firing point.  I have only recently done a repair on one like this, and that would have had a firing/timing problem, which can't be rectified by simply slackening and turning the distributor.

I am planning another technical article with photos about this as it is difficult to understand unless you have experience.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 06, 2022, 08:47:03 am
By now I indeed have a tank of clean petrol. I'm going to see if the local guy here who helped me out last time can teach me to do the valve timi g. I will ask him if we can have a look at the original distributor as well. It is probably a good thing to have a backup if the electronic one ever breaks down.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on June 06, 2022, 11:59:18 am
I had my distributor overhauled by Ignition Car Parts of Basildon.  It came back looking like new and works perfectly.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 08, 2022, 01:28:41 pm
We're also going to have a look at the vacuum system first. Anything in particular I need to pay attention to or should I just try to find all the hoses and replace them first?
Also, is there any schematic for it or a list with the specs of the vacuum tubes I would need to buy? I tried looking in the manual but couldn't find a chapter on that.
I'm currently looking at http://www.matraclub.org.uk/faq8.html#top which seems to have most information on the subject I could find so far.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on June 09, 2022, 12:59:53 pm
If you suspect the vacuum system, a quick way to test it is to blank off the connection from the inlet manifold and see if the running improves.  If it is suspect, then other considerations are the one way valve on the input to the reservoir, the diaphragm in the servo and the electrovalve on the left hand side of the front compartment.  For the tube, just buy it of the correct internal diameter off the roll.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 30, 2022, 10:06:17 am
Vac system isn't perfect in the sense that it still holds vacuum for days but I found one hose that was visibly older and cracked and changed it. Now at least the pods still come up after I stopped the engine for a few minutes which is already an improvement. :)

This didn't help the engine from stalling after driving for a while and I didn't dare to mess with the valve clearance yet since I don't have the tool mentioned in the manual.
For now I dialled in the idle screw on the carb as per the instructions in the manual so it idles around 950 on a warm engine.

One thing I do notice now is that it sometimes idles at 1000-1100 and doesn't go down for a while but for now it at least runs a lot smoother while I search for someone who has time and will to teach me in person how to set the valve clearance and properly check and configure the carb.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on July 02, 2022, 02:49:37 pm
Vac system isn't perfect in the sense that it still holds vacuum for days but I found one hose that was visibly older and cracked and changed it. Now at least the pods still come up after I stopped the engine for a few minutes which is already an improvement. :)

OK that's good and hopefully removes any source of mixture weakening from air that has not past through the carburettor.

Quote
This didn't help the engine from stalling after driving for a while and I didn't dare to mess with the valve clearance yet since I don't have the tool mentioned in the manual.
For now I dialled in the idle screw on the carb as per the instructions in the manual so it idles around 950 on a warm engine. One thing I do notice now is that it sometimes idles at 1000-1100 and doesn't go down for a while...

Was the rpm measured on the car rev counter or did you have a more accurate one connected?  The one in the car is notorious for being inaccurate and slow, so you cannot use it to set an accurate idle rpm.

Does the engine still have the original Weber 36 DCNVA fitted?  For an engine being slow to return to the set idle rpm, that often occurs owing to the throttle plate(s) not returning to the same position every time, and that is possibly due to slight wear in the spindles and mountings - it happens with many old engines.  You can even get a little air drawn in past the spindles.  Check for wear there.

Also if the float bowl fuel level is slightly high, a tiny bit of fuel can dribble across into the manifold and combines with the air to hold the revs from dropping to the set idle until it is used up.

Quote
... while I search for someone who has time and will to teach me in person how to set the valve clearance and properly check and configure the carb.

I doubt you would get that tool 0016928200 mentioned in the manual for setting the valve clearances, today!  However you don't need it, all you really need is a set of feeler gauges, a small spanner to fit the adjuster and another to fit the locknut.  Plus the knowledge of how to adjust the valve clearances.

As for 'configuring the carburettor' - you can't configure it.  The Weber (or the Solex on the 2.2) are fixed jet type carburettors and once the jetting has been decided originally by the manufacturer, it stays like that unless someone starts fitting other jets!  The only adjustments you have are the idle stop screw, to set the idle revs, and a mixture screw which is badly termed in fact.  It does not alter the mixture of fuel and air, but simply allows more or less of the aerated idle mixture already set by the idle fuel and air jets.

So if the Weber is the original standard one fitted to the 1.6 engine, you simply set the idle, and then adjust the 'mixture' screw to give the highest rpm and then reset the idle screw again to bring the engine back to the correct idle.  What you are doing with the idle mixture screw is matching the amount of aerated fuel to the amount of air being drawn past the almost closed throttle plate(s).  (Only 1 throttle plate for the progressive twin venturi carbs. in either Murena 1.6 or 2.2, as the second venturi should be completely closed at idle; but there can be two or more throttle plates if the carbs. are simultaneous opening twins such as the twin side-draught Solex on the Murena 'S'.)

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on July 02, 2022, 05:22:05 pm
The 36DCNVA carb I have has two throttle plates on a common spindle that open simultaneously and by equal amounts, also two idle screws that should be adjusted simultaneously to give the correct idle.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 03, 2022, 02:00:27 pm
Thanks for the input!

For now I used the car's rev counter. Any info on where to get and how to connect an accurate one on your website Roy? I couldn't find it on the FaQ section about vacuum and engine revs.

I'll have to have a close look to confirm with certainty but as far as I am aware my carb matches the 36DCNVA in the manual. 2 mixture screws and one idle. According to the manual instructions I first brought the warm engine to 950rpm with the idle screw, then I alternated turning the two mixture screws to get the rpm as high as possible and then bringing the rpm back to 950 with the idle screw. next I turned in the mixture screws in turn until the rpm dropped by 25 and then again adjusted with the idle screw. (I hope I have the right terminology because I'm translating from the Dutch manual and I'm not sure about the term they use for what I think is the idle screw.)

I have feeler gauges and spanner sets but I prefer to do the valve clearance under the watchful eye of someone who's experienced with it ;)


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on July 03, 2022, 02:45:07 pm
The 36DCNVA carb I have has two throttle plates on a common spindle that open simultaneously and by equal amounts, also two idle screws that should be adjusted simultaneously to give the correct idle.

Sorry, you are quite corret Peter, I was thinking of the DMTR Weber which is similar to the Solex on the 2.2 Murena.  Thanks for the correction.

And those two idle screws, are the ones admitting the aerated mixture from the idle air and fuel jets.  There is only one thottle stop screw.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on July 03, 2022, 02:56:46 pm
Thanks for the input!

For now I used the car's rev counter. Any info on where to get and how to connect an accurate one on your website Roy? I couldn't find it on the FaQ section about vacuum and engine revs.

No, you won't find details such as these on my website, because these are in the basic knowledge that any mechanic or technician would know.  My website is not there to teach anyone basic mechanics.  It is provided to let experienced mechanics understand the Murena where there differences to other cars, which an experienced mechanic or technician may not have come across before.

An external accurate tachometer should be connected to the coil negative terminal of course.

Quote
I'll have to have a close look to confirm with certainty but as far as I am aware my carb matches the 36DCNVA in the manual. 2 mixture screws and one idle...

No need to check, I was wrong and as Peter has stated, it is a simultaneous opening carburettor.  Apologies for my error.

Quote
I have feeler gauges and spanner sets but I prefer to do the valve clearance under the watchful eye of someone who's experienced with it ;)

Fair enough, and correct when you are not aware or haven't done it before.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 07, 2022, 11:41:30 pm
Thanks! I can work with that :)