MatraSport Forum

Each model => Murena => Topic started by: Grapes on January 23, 2021, 11:53:55 am



Title: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on January 23, 2021, 11:53:55 am
Figured I'd start a single thread after all.

Just pulled the oil stick out and the tip has apparently broken off and is still in the block  :'(

Any suggestions? I must admit I start to feel quite in over my head with this car.

Is it just a matter of draining the oil, taking the sump off, pushing it through, reassemble and fill up?
Maybe put a new oil filter in while I'm at it?

Oh and I guess I will somehow need to find a new stick I guess... 🤔


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on January 23, 2021, 06:36:31 pm
Figured I'd start a single thread after all.

Just pulled the oil stick out and the tip has apparently broken off and is still in the block  :'(

Any suggestions? I must admit I start to feel quite in over my head with this car.

Is it just a matter of draining the oil, taking the sump off, pushing it through, reassemble and fill up?
Maybe put a new oil filter in while I'm at it?

Oh and I guess I will somehow need to find a new stick I guess... 🤔

Last thing first - unless you manage to find a good second hand one, you cannot get the electronic dipstick any longer.  It hasn't been available for some time.

If the end has come off, it has broken so you can't just recover the end from the sump and 're-assemble' it.  The way these work is that the end contains a fine wire through which a small current is passed.  This will cause the wire to heat up and change resistance.  Now if the oil level is correct, the end and wire will be submerged in the oil, and that will keep it relatively cool whereas if the oil level is low and therefore the wire is now exposed to the air, it will get hotter and the resistance change triggers the control module (under the left hand side of the dash) to signal the low oil level by flashing the oil level warning light.

Since the end had broken off, the connections are obviously broken, and I doubt you could repair it, but I've never had a chance to try one, so I can't say for certain.

Probably the easiest and certainly cheapest is to fit the old type manual dipstick and disconnect the module (to stop the warning light flashing all the time).  Then regularly check the oil level as everyone used to do. :)

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on January 24, 2021, 01:29:44 am
Yep I already suspected that reassembling that would be unlikely but I'm totally fine with manual checking.

What about getting the tip out? I guess I can fish that bit out of the sump though right?

Any other things I might as well refurbish when I'm draining the block? I haven't had a chance to check the compression unfortunately. But I figured it might be a good idea to replace some of the other things as a precaution.

It was leaking oil into one of the ignition wells last time I checked and with the failed cooling system I wouldn't be surprised if it needs quite a bit of work.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Matraman on January 24, 2021, 01:41:40 pm
It's been over 25 years since I put the same 1.6 engine which you have in your Murena, into my Bagheera, but from memory I think you should suspect the rocker cover gasket if oil is accumulating round the spark plug wells. It's a relatively simple part to replace so have a close look at where the oil is coming from.

As for extracting your broken dip stick tip; drain the oil first, maybe through an old sieve, and see if the part comes out that way. You're lucky it's a 1.6 engine because the sump should be reasonably simple to remove if necessary. You might need to disconnect the gear change shaft to do it though. Replace the sump gasket with a new one while you're at it. If you had a 2.2 and needed to remove the sump you would have to take the engine out! So count your blessings!


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on January 24, 2021, 09:16:25 pm
I am really glad to have the 1.6 indeed. Seems very versitile and if it ever does brake down I could perhaps find a newer PSA engine to replace it. The 2.2 doesn't seem to have much options in that regard. But for now the aim is to fix it up as best as I can. If only for the educational value.

Ehm OK so when I'm draining the block anyway and removing the top and bottom, anything else that I should do while rummaging around in there? Other seals I might as well replace? Valves? That last one is a bit of a mystery to me but I read that they need checking at regular intervals and I have no idea when it has had the last service.

Would be a bit of a shame if I only replaced the cover gasket and filled the block back up, only to find out that I would have to do it again because of something else.

Do I need to take the carbs off as well? I want to be sure that I have all the right gaskets to replace when I have to put things back together again.

While I am going to be buying stuff anyway. I have the feeling that there is something wrong with the transmission as well. Maybe just the clutch though. If I'm running the engine stationary I can hear an ever so faint grinding noise. When I press the clutch it is gone.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Matraman on January 28, 2021, 12:14:54 pm
I'm not the best qualified to answer your questions because my current car is a 2.2 which I've just mechanically renovated and learnt a lot on the way, with help of people on this forum. To try and help I would say the following:
IF it's the cause of the oil leak, removing the rocker cover to replace the gasket is a fairly easy job and the gasket can be reused if you have to do it again for some reason, so there's no great need to do other stuff while your at it. Have you noticed any smoke from the exhaust or tappet rattle? If not you can leave valve seals for another time because they will need a spring compressor. I'm not sure whether you can leave the head on that engine and pressurise the cylinders in order to replace them, or whether the head has to come off. That's much more work than a rocker cover gasket. If there's tappet rattle you can adjust the valve clearances while the rocker cover is off.

If you're removing the sump I don't think there's much else to be done while you're at it, apart from the gasket. Obviously replace the oil and oil filter while the engine is empty.

You won't need to remove carbs for the rocker cover as far as I know.

The noise you hear before depressing the clutch pedal is probably the clutch release bearing. A faint noise is usually okay, a louder noise indicates it's on its way out.

I hope that's of some help


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on January 28, 2021, 01:49:54 pm
Ah super. Thanks for pitching in. I will just start with the sump and valve cover seals etc so I can do a compression test. Knowing that the gasket can be reused is a great relief. Looking forward to tackle this.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on January 28, 2021, 03:15:51 pm


The noise you hear before depressing the clutch pedal is probably the clutch release bearing. A faint noise is usually okay, a louder noise indicates it's on its way out.

I hope that's of some help
Wrong.  If the clutch release bearing is on its way out you will hear the noise when you press the clutch pedal, not when it is released.  The noise you can hear is the constant mesh gears in the gearbox.  A small amount of noise is normal, you only need to worry if it starts getting worse.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Matraman on January 29, 2021, 11:11:05 am
Oh well at least it was only one thing wrong! The best part is someone more qualified than me has pitched in to help.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on February 03, 2021, 09:56:15 pm
Even better  :D


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on February 16, 2021, 03:59:51 pm
Does anyone know where I can get a replacement oil dipstick? Or should I just check with some second hand sellers?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on February 16, 2021, 06:40:14 pm
Does anyone know where I can get a replacement oil dipstick? Or should I just check with some second hand sellers?

Assuming you are talking here about the electronic sensor dipstick, as I stated here on January 23rd, you can't get a new one as they haven't been available for a long time.  You can try for a second hand one, but I fear that will be unlikely.  A manual one should be possible, but I don't have a part number for one of those, but there must have been loads of them around since the same engine was fitted in a large number of Simca/Talbot 1307/Alpine/1308/Solara.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on February 23, 2021, 11:48:37 pm
No I actually meant the manual one because you already mentioned the electronic one not being available. I tried Autodoc for a manual one but they couldn't supply so I guess that may also have to be a second hand one.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on March 04, 2021, 02:37:19 pm
No I actually meant the manual one because you already mentioned the electronic one not being available. I tried Autodoc for a manual one but they couldn't supply so I guess that may also have to be a second hand one.

Since you have the broken electronic dipstick, why not simply use the top piece where it fits into the dipstick tube and fix a flat piece of steel to it, cut to a suitable length and marked that with the low and high levels.  If you don't have the correct measurements I'm sure someone with a 1.6 could supply them from their dipstick.  Or alternatively with the engine empty of oil, fill it with the correct amount of litres, then insert the new manual dipstick, and mark it where the oil level has left its trace.  For a low level mark you can simply mark it about 10 mm lower.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on March 09, 2021, 08:15:46 pm
Is €350 an OK price for spare seats with slightly worn leather upholstery?
Carjoy is selling some and I figured it would be nice to have a spare set so I can re-do the current ones.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on April 23, 2021, 05:03:27 pm
Hi again, can someone give me the basic steps to replace the valve cover gasket or alternatively refer me to the correct section in the manual. I've been browsing the A0 part about the engine but it's not written in a way that I can really wrap my head around it so maybe I'm either skipping over it or looking at the wrong section?

Additionally I took the carter pan off at the start of this week and couldn't find the broken tip of the oil stick so either it fell somewhere outside of the engine after all or it may have been flushed into the drip pan when I drained the oil. I will filter it before putting it in bottles to dispose of it just to be sure but I figured if I can't find it that's good news.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 07, 2021, 02:59:37 pm
Small victory for me. For now I hope to have successfully replaced the sump gasket and the rocker cover gasket. That last one was a bit of a pain because of the position of the four screws close to the engine bay wall so if anyone has any tips to reach them easier in the future I'd be happy to hear it.

While replacing the rocker cover I started to wonder if the inlet manifold (that's the thing that the carb is bolted on top of right?) gasket needed replacing as well. Looked like it hasn't been touched in 40 years and with the other gaskets failing I figured this could also need a change. Is that an equally "easy" like the rocker cover one?

Apart from that I still need to deal with the radiator fan not turning on. As I understood from Roy the easiest way to reach it is by removing the floor up front that the battery sits in. I had a look and is seems like quite an undertaking after all. I noticed there's some holes for wires to go through and then there is the battery itself. Am I right to assume that all I need to do is remove the rivets and carefully raise the entire floor, battery and all? Or should I disconnect things and take the battery out first?

 


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on May 07, 2021, 03:23:42 pm
I think you should remove the battery, it's not much extra work, but before that make sure the connections to the switch are ok.  You can reach them from underneath the car on the left hand side.  With the ignition on there should be 12 volts on one connector and earth on the other.  Also, if the de-gassing pipe that runs from the top of the radiator to the header tank is blocked, the radiator may not fill completely so the coolant level never reaches the switch.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 12, 2021, 12:46:23 am
OK so if I understand it correctly likely possible culprits can be:
1. Fan motor defect
2. Switch defect
3. Blocked degas pipe
4. Thermostat defect (This was recently suggested by a friend)

1 and 2 probably require me to disassemble the front floor?
3 and 4 can be checked in the engine bay?

In regards to the possibly blocked degas pipe: Any suggestions how to check this and if so, how to unblock it?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on May 12, 2021, 12:05:28 pm
You should be able to reach the switch from underneath without taking the floor out with a bit of patience and the right tools.  As for the de-gassing pipe, it's easy to check.  Remove filler cap and clamp off the overflow from the filler neck.  Remove the de-gassing pipe from the header tank and quickly put your finger over the outlet from the tank to stop the coolant escaping.  Then put your mouth to the filler neck and blow as hard as you can until clean coolant comes from the disconnected de-gassing pipe and re-connect the pipe.  Be careful not to swallow any anti-freeze.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 12, 2021, 12:36:17 pm
Oh brilliant that's an easy one. I think you or someone else on here has actually mentioned that before. It does sound very familiar.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on May 12, 2021, 01:15:18 pm
Probably was me, the first time I did it a lot of rusty sludge came out.  I think it collects in the lowest part of the pipe under the car.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 16, 2021, 01:58:59 pm
Does the oil filter unscrew counter clockwise like everything else in the world?
I couldn't get it off as hard as I tried...


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on May 16, 2021, 07:31:47 pm
Yes it does, get yourself a chain wrench.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 17, 2021, 12:11:04 am
Yeah, I will. I tried à three prong but it was too large 🙁


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 17, 2021, 11:37:51 am
Is there a way to manually turn the oil pump when I get the filter replaced so I can pre-lubricate the engine before I attempt to fire it up again?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: tonyz59 on May 17, 2021, 08:26:56 pm
just disconnect the  king lead to the distributor from the the coil. the engine will turn over and not start and it will get the oil pressure up and get oil to where its wanted before you fire it up.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 18, 2021, 12:10:18 pm
Oh clever! Thanks!


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 21, 2021, 03:13:58 pm
Disassembled muffler and made enough room so I could finally get the old oil filter off and put a new one in. Yay.

Got new questions though:

1. I noticed the engine has a diagnostics port. should I find diagnostic equipment for this? If so, how can I find one? I assume this is an older type than in current cars?

2. I also notice in some engine bay pictures there is an air intake hose attached to the air filter housing. Mine doesn't have that. Where does it go to, what is its use, why don't I have one or perhaps better put, should I get one?.
(https://i.imgur.com/Uuo3hZ1.png?1)

3. Another thing I read in the owner manual is that there should be a gasket ring for the sump plug which also seems to be missing o my car. I don't see this item listed in the CarJoy webshop though (and preferably don't want to buy there any more since last time it took them 10 days to ship me the rocker cover gasket).
Should I get one? If so, what kind? One guy mentioned getting a copper compression washer. Is that what I need?

4. And I noticed this tube wasn't connected and noticed a connection point under what I think is the thermostat that didn't have a hose on. Am I correct this hose leads here and what are the specifications for it. I want to replace it since I think the one that is on there is too small.
(https://i.imgur.com/7IWJtYN.jpg)

Am sure I'll get more questions eventually but let's leave it at this for now.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: tonyz59 on May 21, 2021, 04:00:25 pm
the oil seal for the sump plug on simon site part no 01121 - 1 euro. just to add it's not a copper crush washer but a brass with a inner rubber seal. i think the hose at the expansion tank is the pressure relief and should just lead out to under the car .


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on May 21, 2021, 04:07:12 pm
The hose is the overflow and the lower end is unconnected.  I think the connection on the thmostat housing is for a different model using the same engine.  The diagnostic port seems to vary according to the year and I don't rate your chances of getting the correct equipment.  I should just invest in a good multimeter.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 21, 2021, 04:57:45 pm
Ah thanks!


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 22, 2021, 10:32:53 am
Any alternatives for the brass with rubber sump plug seal? Shipping is a whopping 20€ from. Simon which I find a bit over the top for a 1€ part  ::)


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on May 22, 2021, 12:52:30 pm
If you know the size then it should be possible to buy the correct one from an independent parts supplier


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 22, 2021, 08:09:01 pm
Ah, common parts then, excellent 😀


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on May 23, 2021, 08:51:52 pm
Got new questions though:

One guy mentioned getting a copper compression washer. Is that what I need?

Yes all you need is a copper washer to help seal the sump plug to the sump.  Either a normal copper washer or a crushable one should do, but if you want a washer with the rubber seal around the inner edge, they are called Dowty washers.

Quote
4. And I noticed this tube wasn't connected and noticed a connection point under what I think is the thermostat that didn't have a hose on. Am I correct this hose leads here and what are the specifications for it. I want to replace it since I think the one that is on there is too small.
(https://i.imgur.com/7IWJtYN.jpg)

No, no, no!  Do not connect the overflow hose to anywhere!  That overflow hose from just under the radiator cap on the header tank simply vents down onto the ground, if the system was to boil over.  If it overflowed and you had it connected to a vacuum port, the coolant would get sucked into the combustion chamber and you would damage the engine, possibly bending a con-rod!

The port in the photo on the right which you say is under what you think is the thermostat housing, looks like it is an inlet manifold vacuum connection, but I can't tell exactly from your photo.  I'm not as familiar with the 1.6 as I am with a 2.2 engine compartment.  But you certainly don't want the overflow hose connecting to a vacuum port!!

If that is a vacuum port, then when the engine is started, that would be allowing air into the manifold, and should have a vacuum hose connected to something.  You need to check all the vacuum lines to see what is not connected.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: JL on May 24, 2021, 05:05:03 pm
Hi, nothing is connected to this - I assume that it is a common casting with the outlet not used in this installation.
Cheers
John


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on May 25, 2021, 05:53:34 pm
Hi, nothing is connected to this - I assume that it is a common casting with the outlet not used in this installation.
Cheers
John

Thanks John for the clarification.  If that is just an unused blank port, then you certainly wouldn't want to connect the cooling system overflow hose to it, Dan, as the coolant could not get out!

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on May 26, 2021, 01:37:10 pm
No worries, thanks for clearing that up!


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 01, 2021, 11:59:21 am
Fan working!  https://imgur.com/a/KFGbUly

Geleased some air through the valve on top of the degas tube I think. I remember doing that as well when I refilled it previously but somehow it didn't work then but it did now and I also topped up the coolant a bit more. By shining a light through the plastic of the header tank I was able to see the level of the coolant and that was not high enough.

Also had the engine running a while to get to a temperature that would even turn the fan on and didn't see anything leaking anymore... At least not yet... 😅
Did not do a compression test yet and I noticed the revs are very low when I don't choke it. Any suggestions what to look for or how to adjust it? Just tightening the throttle cable?

Going to replace the battery and make an MOT appointment so I can hopefully start driving it again at least while working on the other issues that need to be addressed.

I also tried to make a recording of the noise I hear when I take my foot off the clutch but the file is too big for the attachment unfortunately so I will find another way to share it here. I did check the transmission fluid and that seemed to be fine.



Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: tonyz59 on June 01, 2021, 02:26:42 pm
Noise on clutch could be the slave cylinder. I just had the slave cylinder fail , at first the pedal did not spring back fully then I had a little rattling noise that went away when I depressed the clutch pedal slightly. When I looked underneath the fluid was seeping out from the rubber boot. I don't think the clutch fluid had ever been changed in the car it was almost black and mostly water by its viscosity !


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: JL on June 01, 2021, 05:24:03 pm
I have realised that even after reducing the image size in my post, the photograph is cocking up subsequent emails making them slightly difficult to read(too wide). Has anybody got any idea how I can remove the image, resize and replace it with a smaller one back in the post?
Cheers
John


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 01, 2021, 06:01:06 pm
Noise on clutch could be the slave cylinder. I just had the slave cylinder fail , at first the pedal did not spring back fully then I had a little rattling noise that went away when I depressed the clutch pedal slightly. When I looked underneath the fluid was seeping out from the rubber boot. I don't think the clutch fluid had ever been changed in the car it was almost black and mostly water by its viscosity !

For me the noise comes when the pedal is not pressed and goes away when I press it.
My fluid was clear, slightly foul smelling and had a low viscosity... 🤔 Guess it may need a change? Definitely not black though....


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on June 01, 2021, 06:51:41 pm
I have realised that even after reducing the image size in my post, the photograph is cocking up subsequent emails making them slightly difficult to read(too wide). Has anybody got any idea how I can remove the image, resize and replace it with a smaller one back in the post?
Cheers
John

I've sent you an email with a reduced one John.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 01, 2021, 09:19:42 pm
Transmission rattle. Converted the wav to a smaller mp3  ;)


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on June 02, 2021, 03:07:14 pm
Sounds like the constant mesh gears, I've heard worse on new cars.  My philosophy with transmission noises is to worry only if they start to get worse.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 02, 2021, 09:01:11 pm
OK that sounds good to me 👍 😁


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 11, 2021, 05:26:28 pm
Hi, I brought my car for the MOT and the garage told me that the brake booster or brake servo isn't working properly. Someone advised me to rebuild it rather than replace it. What do you guys advise?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on June 12, 2021, 11:34:12 am
I haven't heard of anyone rebuilding one of these, or if the parts are available.  Before condemning the servo I would check that there is vacuum at the servo and that the non-return valve where the vacuum pipe connects to the servo is functioning.  It is easy to check a servo.  With the engine off pump the pedal several times until the vacuum is exhausted then, while holding the pedal down, start the engine.  With a good servo you should feel the pedal sink slightly.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 12, 2021, 01:19:51 pm
Ah ok and if they are right about the servo, are there replacements available?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on June 13, 2021, 01:05:53 pm
Simon-auto stock them for 199 euros exchange, but you may find that a unit from other contemporary models may fit.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 13, 2021, 02:50:15 pm
Alright that should work. I'll check the vacuum thing first  :)


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: JV on June 14, 2021, 09:46:07 pm
Please, reduce the format of your picture


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 15, 2021, 09:58:41 am
Please, reduce the format of your picture

My bad! Here is the small one. To me it really looks like the servo has started to leak. Also I guess that these indeed can be rebuilt seeing how Matra Magic and Simon Auto both offer them as exchange parts. So I guess I'll start by removing this one.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on June 15, 2021, 10:07:26 am
There shouldn't be fluid inside the servo.  If that's brake fluid you can see then it's coming from the master cylinder and you should notice a fluid loss.  These can be rebuilt cheaply and you can find instructions on how to do it on Roy Gillard's website.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 16, 2021, 08:59:50 am
Ah, maybe the garage just sprayed the joints in something 🤔


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 28, 2021, 03:15:54 pm
Need to polish the lenses of the headlamps to get it MOT approved... Does anyone know if that toothpaste polishing technique that floats around the internet really works?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 29, 2021, 05:16:13 am
It's usually the reflectors that give people problems. I would buy a headlamp polish kit, toothpaste may work, but why waste time on trying when there are polishes made for just this, e.g. https://www.holtsauto.com/holts/products/headlight-restoration-kit/

/Anders


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on June 29, 2021, 01:32:16 pm
Headlamp polish kit acquired! Thanks for the quick advice! These must be popular, I had to visit 3 stores before I found one that wasn't sold out. Also had a hard time finding a vacuum hose for the connection between the brake booster and the plastic pipe. Apparently the 9mm inner diameter is uncommon? I've got a piece of hydraulics hose from a pneumatics company now that feels more or less equally tough. I'll just have to try it out and hope it's a match I guess.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 30, 2021, 05:36:48 am
Great! I've never tried it, but the kit looked good. Is it too late to ask for pictures showing before/after? :)


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 01, 2021, 03:08:31 pm
Nope it isn't but when I inspected the lenses when I gotten back to the garage I noticed the lenses where perfect so I shelved the kit for later use on our family car where the headlamps do seem to have gotten a bit hazy. I already had my suspicions since it's pop-up lamps which don't normally see a lot of UV time to damage the lenses but I was in hte supply shop and since I figured I could always use it for another car I decided just to get it to save me an extra trip.
I think I'll just replace the bulbs and try and clean the reflectors.
I read I can stuff pieces of paper towel through the bulb hole and then let them twirl around with the compressor to remove any dust build-up. If that doesn't work I'll have them explain me what they feel isn't right about it and see if they can give me some suggestions.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 03, 2021, 08:21:25 am
So I rang the garage yesterday and after some explaining from my side they checked with the mechanic who did the check who said he changed the bulbs but didn't check if that solved the issue. 🤦‍♂️
Anyway I don't see anything wrong with the lenses. The reflectors are also largely okay. Going to bring it back to the garage again after the weekend fingers crossed 🤞


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 09, 2021, 11:08:47 am
Aaand I'm back on the road! Replaced the brake booster after all with a trade in one from Simon Auto. Super fast delivery, much faster than the few gaskets I ordered at Carjoy a while ago even though Simon's across the border for me and Carjoy is local so I think I found my new default parts supplier :)

Not sure what to tackle next to be honest. At least there's no more leaking and during the current temperatures it also starts without need for the choke. Probably will do a compression test soon to see how bad the block is. For me it feels powerful enough but I'm kind of a slow cruiser these days and I assume it's better to get things in shape to prevent larger issues in the future.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: tonyz59 on July 09, 2021, 02:59:43 pm
Well done, there will be other things that go wrong don't worry  ::) so you will be increasing your mechanical skills, i have no doubt !!


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 10, 2021, 08:01:03 am
Indeed, well done! I second your strategy: Brakes first, engine later. Happy cruising! :)


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 12, 2021, 02:04:51 am
Thanks 😁
I'm happy getting there a little slower as long as I can stop when I get there 😉
Noticed some wobble at higher speeds and it sounds like I need to tighten the fan belt again so I will have to get the wheels balanced and will get the alignment checked as well. It looks like I lost some balancing weights in one of the wheels somehow so that's probably where it comes from.

Any tips for light from the sunroof reflecting on the divider window behind the headrests? I can hardly use the rear view mirror in the car.
Sunroof is also leaking a bit of air because it needs a new rubber seal. Are they a stock part?

And I noticed that the doors seem to be off. The ridge doesn't align with the one in the bodywork. Is that something common?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 12, 2021, 05:47:56 am
Many Murenas had aftermarket sunroofs fitted (mine doesn't have one), so I doubt there's a standard seal to be found. I found a coat of silicone grease around the seal effective on my Espace. It even reseals after opening and I haven't had to renew it even after a few years. Also, remove the glass to clean the seal well. Dirty seals are the primary cause of leaking sunroofs.

About the reflection, when you have the glass off, fit solar film?

Some misalignment of panels is common. I think the door panels were fitted with the door frame already mounted on the chassis to ensure they were aligned when new, but they were rarely perfect. Matra improved this over the years and in the last Espace's it was always good. But this fitting process, however, means that every door is individually aligned to the chassis it was built for so if the door was replaced during the cars life the panel will always be a bit out of alignment. How much is the misalignment?

/Anders


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 14, 2021, 12:43:36 pm
Hi Anders,

Thanks for the tips. The seal on my sunroof is probably damaged beyond repair at some places but I had either the brilliant or the stupid idea I might be able to replace the old seal by creating a new seal with either bathroom silicone (the stuff you use to close seams with between e.g. your sink and the wall) or gasket silicone. Just taking out the old rubber tube and just filling the grove with silicone and letting that dry before putting the window back in.

In regards to the reflection, I'm not sure foil will work... there will still be light falling through hitting that back pane I suspect? I'm probably just going to block the window entirely since I mostly like the fact that I can open it. I do sometimes take it out entirely which almost gives it a targa feel. Maybe there's anti reflection foil I can put on the divider pane though! Or was that what you meant all along?

The alignment isn't much but it's visible and now I noticed it it started to bother me :D
I attached a picture. On the driver's side it's the same but I think not just at the rear but also at the front of the groove. I checked pictures on the web and it's indeed not uncommon. Might at some point just fill the entire groove and paint a black line there. Or perhaps a stripe might already be enough to mask it. Not actually planning to do anything with it on short term unless it was an easy fix though. At some point I probably want to do a new paint job and maybe add skirts but for now my focus is to keep it driving as much as possible.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on July 14, 2021, 11:46:35 pm

The alignment isn't much but it's visible and now I noticed it it started to bother me :D
I attached a picture.


Actually that's a pretty good alignment Dan.  You have to remember this is a hand built car on a hot-dip totally galvanised chassis, not a mass produced 'eurobox' made in steel with mm precision.

Do you realise that the galvanising process causes unavoidable slight distortion?  This is why you could not do this to a mass produced car.  The fact that the chassis (which will have distorted slightly) is hidden by the composite outer bodywork makes it possible to hide those slight imperfections.

However, there is one problem and that is the part of the door hinge that is fastened to the chassis is actually welded to the chassis and cannot be moved!  On the passenger side it is just about perfectly placed, but the drivers side (on all cars - see original press release photos) was welded slightly incorrectly and so the rear of the door never did align correctly.  So to lift the rear and align the door and the groove, they packed the lower hinge on the door fastening.  If it is still too low, all you need to do is insert a little more packing.  In fact with age, the door will probably have dropped a little anyway as per the rear of your passenger door, so it will probably benefit from a little more packing to bring it back to correct.

Packing out the door hinge mounting is an easy job, and takes little time.  But when you do this you must also make sure you re-adjust the anchor point too, otherwise the action of shutting the door will mean that the latching of the mechanism on the anchor pin to pull it down out of alignment again!

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 16, 2021, 01:11:21 am
I never realised that that was part of the galvanisation process 😅
Thanks for pointing that out.
Now I know why this is, I'm already a little less bothered by it. I'll have a look at packing the hinges at some point.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 17, 2021, 10:29:00 pm
Are the bacs of the rear lamp units supposed to be bare like this?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 18, 2021, 09:09:11 am
Are the bacs of the rear lamp units supposed to be bare like this?

Yes, a back cover was fitted in Germany, but not in other countries.

/Anders


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on July 18, 2021, 03:52:43 pm
Are the bacs of the rear lamp units supposed to be bare like this?

On the early Murena, up to the end of the 1982 model year, they had a fibre cover that clipped into place behind the rear lamps.  Replacements for these fibre covers used to be available in glass fibre - they may still be, but I haven't checked recently.

For the 1983 model year up to the end of production, the chassis had metal covers welded a the back of the holes in the rear panel before galvanising, forming a solid rear cover for the rear lamps.  (This was for any market model Anders, not just for Germany)

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: MatraIan on July 18, 2021, 08:19:25 pm
Not sure if they are available at Carjoy or Simon but Matramagic have them listed as in stock. Not cheap though.
Drivers: https://www.matramagic.co.uk/Rear-Light-Internal-Cover-Murena-Driver-Side-p205508762
passenger: https://www.matramagic.co.uk/Rear-Light-Internal-Cover-Murena-Passenger-Side-p205510084
Pics attached and also a pic of the factory one as fitted on my 2.2S
Ian.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 19, 2021, 06:48:02 am
For the 1983 model year up to the end of production, the chassis had metal covers welded a the back of the holes in the rear panel before galvanising, forming a solid rear cover for the rear lamps.  (This was for any market model Anders, not just for Germany)

Thanks for correcting me, Roy! :)


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 19, 2021, 05:00:10 pm
Simon doesn't have them, I checked. I might make something at some point.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 20, 2021, 08:26:01 pm
OK, new strange thing popped up today... My speedometer needle is jumping up and down and sometimes stops working. Any tips what I should look for?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 21, 2021, 07:12:22 am
OK, new strange thing popped up today... My speedometer needle is jumping up and down and sometimes stops working. Any tips what I should look for?

I'd check the speedometer cable. It goes from the speedometer to the left front wheel through the front compartment. The cable could be broken, if so most likely around the place where it is attached to the wheel hub. Inspect it carefully. The attachment to the speedometer itself can be checked by reaching up with your hand behind the instrument cluster from below. It might have undone itself from the speedometer. If so, push it gently onto the speedometer until the cable latches onto the speedometer.

/Anders


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 21, 2021, 11:12:59 am
I have been messing with the cables of the radio and its one big mess behind the dash so it wouldn't surprise me if I accidentally dislodged it. Fingers crossed 🤞


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 22, 2021, 05:18:18 pm
So I finally got around to doing a compression test and it's looking pretty grim I guess? it's more less 8 kilo Pascal across all cylinders with 1 cylinder maybe around 8.5 and first one from the rights may be around 7.9. It's really hard to read out kilopascals on the compression tester that I had.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: JL on July 22, 2021, 07:31:20 pm
Are you sure that you are reading kilopascal, 1kpa = 0.145psi? If were Bar then 8bar = 112psi - not great but at least the readings are reasonably even and the engine would run.
Cheers
John


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 22, 2021, 09:01:37 pm
In psi I think it was about 120 for the good ones and 110 for the worse one. Could that be correct?

Two of the spark plugs were pretty black as well and replaced all of them and I'm going to check again in about a week to see if it gets black again.

On top of that the rubber seals that are around the spark plugs that I assume prevent dirt from falling through are completely eroded so will need replacement as well.

But yeah the engine runs, probably far from optimal though.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 22, 2021, 10:39:46 pm
I'd like to see a photo of the spark plugs. It is normal for the plugs to turn black over time on carburetted engines. We have gotten so used to fuel injected engines with O2 sensors that we expect plugs to stay the same colour through their life.

Also, I find it odd that you get more or less the same reading for the compression test on all four cylinders. Are you sure your meter is good?

/Anders


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: JL on July 23, 2021, 08:03:44 am
When you are taking the compression readings have you taken all of the plugs out of the head and is the battery good enough to crank the engine over at a decent speed?
Cheers
John


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on July 23, 2021, 12:10:14 pm
Two plugs where the regular "black" and two where covered in sooth ;) Will make the picture later.
I wasn't sure how to do the compression test so I did the following steps:
1. Warmed up the engine.
2. disconnected the main lead to the distributor.
3. disconnected the plug on the first cylinder to the right
4. took the plug out
5. attached the meter
6. cranked until the needle stopped moving
7. put a new plug in
8. put the lead back on (I didn't want to mess up the order so I did them one at a time)
9. repeat steps 3 to 8 working my way right to left.

I threw out the broken rings from 3 of the 4 plug holes since they where well... broken...
It did surprise and slightly relief me that the reading across all cylinders are roughly the same. The one on the right is definitely worse than the one on the left and the two in the middle where more or less equal to each other. I written it down as (right to left) 7.9   8.0   8.2  and  8.4
The meter was fine according to my friend who used it on his bike previously. It wasn't one of the most high tech ones though. They all seem to come from the same Chinese factory... Mine was broken unfortunately :/

@John
I did not take all plugs out at once (I wasn't sure that was needed and didn't want to risk putting them back in the wrong hole)
I'm not sure if the battery is good enough to crank the engine over at a decent speed. I haven't driven this car much since I got it last summer and it has been in repairs since Septembre or something. I figured if it starts and doesn't drain the battery if I don't drive it for a week or two by itself it should be fine.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: JL on July 23, 2021, 02:15:08 pm
To get a better idea of the compression, remove all of the plugs before you spin the engine over and have the carburettor fully open and no choke - this should give you better readings.
Cheers
John


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on August 05, 2021, 04:54:34 pm
Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to test the compression yet with the new instruction where I'm supposed to remove all the plugs yet.
However in the mean time there's another issue I'd like to start giving some attention.
I recently noticed my car hangs ever so slightly towards the driver's side (it's almost like the 40 years of carrying just the driver on one side have caused this).
I never really noticed this myself until someone pointed it out. Another thing I noticed is that it's drifting slightly off to the drivers side as well and I wonder if it might be related. If so I guess I need to fix the hang first before I fix the alignment. I already checked with a local shop but they told me they can't align it because the computer doesn't know the car (frustratingly enough I did notice several older cars like the Renault Dauphine in the list) so I also wonder how I'm going to fix that  ???


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on August 06, 2021, 09:52:52 am
Just had a bit of Googling around and I wonder if the only solution is to use the old school play with measuring tape and pieces of string... Or will it be possible to give the right dimensions to a shop so they can put that into the computer to perform the alignment?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: GP on August 06, 2021, 10:45:33 pm
Err there is not that much a Computer can do to help you with alignment on a standard Murena really.....
Only thing you can easily adjust is the "Toe in and Toe out" of the front wheels with the track rods. Never been near a computer for this myself, most tyre fitting shops in the U.K. have a portable alignment gauge that they do this with.  
The other item on the front that is adjustable is the "Camber" which you adjust by adding or removing the "Camber Shims" between the upper suspension arm bracket assembly. Castor is fixed.
There is absolutely nothing that can be adjusted on the rear of the car except tyre pressure!
As for the front ride height, this can easily be taken up and down by the nut on the end of the lever which goes to the spline on the end of the Torsion bar part of the front suspension. Measure this with a Tape Measure from the ground to the lower edge of the front wing above the wheel and make adjustments accordingly.
The rear ride height on a standard Murena is non-adjustable. If you want to adjust the rear ride height you would have to invest in new Coil Over Shock Absorbers with Adjustable Spring Platforms.
I suspect though that you just have worn dampers front and rear and that the rear springs have all sunk with age?
You would replace both sides of the car for this as standard practice.
Cheers, Graham

P.S. Read this from Roy's Website:-

http://www.matraclub.org.uk/files/Susp_Strg.pdf


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on August 07, 2021, 03:47:06 pm
Err there is not that much a Computer can do to help you with alignment on a standard Murena really.....
Only thing you can easily adjust is the "Toe in and Toe out" of the front wheels with the track rods. Never been near a computer for this myself, most tyre fitting shops in the U.K. have a portable alignment gauge that they do this with.  
The other item on the front that is adjustable is the "Camber" which you adjust by adding or removing the "Camber Shims" between the upper suspension arm bracket assembly. Castor is fixed.

Actually that is not true Graham.  The castor can be adjusted too, because if you take out or add more shims to the front or rear top wishbone fastening then it will move the top ball joint forwards or backwards and therefore adjust the castor angle!  Actually it is not just the number of shims, since there are three different thicknesses of shims, so it it the total thickness that is important.  You must take out (or add) the same thickness of shims at the front and back fastening of the top wishbone if you want to adjust the camber and not disturb the castor.

Quote
There is absolutely nothing that can be adjusted on the rear of the car except tyre pressure!

Correct, but the rear tracking should always be checked because if something is bent or worn it could be incorrect.
 
Quote
As for the front ride height, this can easily be taken up and down by the nut on the end of the lever which goes to the spline on the end of the Torsion bar part of the front suspension. Measure this with a Tape Measure from the ground to the lower edge of the front wing above the wheel and make adjustments accordingly.

Correct the front ride height can be adjusted up or down normally... but in this case I'm very much doubtful he will ever get anything satisfactory, as I've already explained to him owing to the wheel and tyres that have been fitted previously.  So that you can see the problem, these are what are fitted to his 1.6 Murena:

Front: 205/45ZR16 tyres on 7.5Jx16 wheels
Rear:  225/40ZR16 tyres on 9.0Jx16 wheels

These may look good cosmetically, put they are really too big for a Murena, particularly a 1.6 which doesn't have as much power or cornering potential, and I wouldn't want to drive or corner fast on them without a lot of careful testing, as they have altered the carefully designed Matra set up outside the correct parameters.

Now I did a calculation on these and the front is riding 16mm higher than the rear!  So the car has a 'nose up' stance which is bad for aerodynamics as well as upsetting all the carefully designed suspension set up done by Matra Automobiles to produce a superb handling car.

His front tyres will raise the front ride height compared to the original Murena 1.6 175/70HR13 tyres by 8 mm.  They would also be much closer to the front wheel arch and therefore there will be a more limited amount you can lower the front on the torsion bar setting.  Since the wheels are 7.5" wide, which are strictly a little too wide for 205 width tyres, I suspect the offset is incorrect with more to the outside also altering the contact patch centre of the tyres and again generally upsetting the way the car was designed.

His rear tyres will lower the rear ride height compared to the original Murena 1.6 195/70HR13 tyres by 8 mm.  Again the wheels are much too wide for those 225 width tyres, and certainly the offset must be incorrect otherwise the inside edges would foul the semi-trailing arms.  The front tyres could have been put on 6.5" and the rear tyres on 7" wide rims.  The greater offset will put a torque twist on the bearings and therefore the hubs and semi-trailing arms, as the contact patch is again outside of the original design spec.

Quote
The rear ride height on a standard Murena is non-adjustable. If you want to adjust the rear ride height you would have to invest in new Coil Over Shock Absorbers with Adjustable Spring Platforms.
I suspect though that you just have worn dampers front and rear and that the rear springs have all sunk with age?
You would replace both sides of the car for this as standard practice.
Cheers, Graham

P.S. Read the article from Roy's Website (as stated in my posting)

To sum up, I'm sorry but you simply can't truly diagnose any faults with this cars suspension with those inappropriate wheels and tyres!  Ideally you would put a set of original wheels and tyres on it first, whether that is the 70 profiles on 13" steel wheels or the 60 profile tyres on the 14" alloys, but if you use a set of alloys with 60 profile tyres, then you need to lower the front torsion bar setting to allow for the fact that even those 195/60HR14  rear tyres lowered the rear ride height and produced an incorrect front to rear ride height, which Matra forgot to allow for!  This is all explained in my article, where I strongly recommend using 55 profile 14" tyres on the front to bring the ride heights back to the original design specification.

A final point is that the Murena appears to have been designed to suit French roads with their, at times, heavily cambered surfaces.  In the U.K. where we drive on the left and any road camber is the opposite of French roads, I found when my car was brand new, that it would drift slowly into the kerb if you didn't pay attention to keep it straight.  So working in the trade with access to all the right equipment, I double checked all the suspension was correctly set as per the design spec.  It was, so I live with that slight drift.  However, whenever I took the car to France, which I have done now on various occasions, I found that the car tracks perfectly straight and I can take my hands off the wheel, even at 130 kph, and it runs perfectly straight!

Roy
P.S. as for the garage that can't do any checks because 'the computer doesn't know the car', that just proves how pathetic some mechanics and their understanding is now - if a computer can't tell them, then they have no idea!  Rubbish!  Even if I didn't have the actual spec. for any vehicle, I could still check it out fully, see what readings I got, and know if it was about right or something was patently wrong.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on August 09, 2021, 01:51:02 am
Ah ok I already feared as much. Is there a way to check the ride height? Because visually it looks like the nose is deeper than the rear but that could well be an optical illusion (as I also didn't notice it hanging off to one side). I can imagine that a previous owner or CarJoy already adjusted the suspension to make sure the nose isn't higher than the rear.

I actually just got in contact with a fellow Murena owner and mechanic that lives more or less in my general area (What are the odds of that? :o ).  Time for coffee and a more expert assessment of the adventure I have gotten myself into :D


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 09, 2021, 05:22:14 am
I'll see if I can make some scans from the worskhop manual. Measuring the ride height is not difficiult, but requires you get under the car while it's still sitting on the wheels, so you need help from someone with garage with a lift with ramps or a pit.

I'm told that most later 1.6 Murena's were fitted with incorrect rear springs when new and are sitting too high in the rear.

/Anders


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on August 10, 2021, 04:30:17 pm
Ah, no problem. I just checked the manual and found it. Section Ka0a 602 right?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on August 11, 2021, 01:34:35 am
@Anders
Picture of the spark plugs. Completely slipped my mind.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Anders Dinsen on August 11, 2021, 05:47:44 am
Ah, no problem. I just checked the manual and found it. Section Ka0a 602 right?

Ah, so you have it, great! :) I never got around to scanning as I browsed through my binder and realized I couldn't find where it says how to actually adjust the ride height. There are several sections talking about ride height, but I haven't found the place where they describe exactly how to measure and correct it. Have you been succesful?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on August 11, 2021, 08:39:55 pm
I haven't tried it yet, but I do think that the section I referred to is the one that describes it.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on August 31, 2021, 07:13:02 pm
Simple 14" steel but already much better   ;D
I do miss a little bit of the stiffer feel of the 16" so I may search for 15" alloys but I'm selling the AZEV set.
They also aligned it and informed me that the suspension on the left side might need more work than just new shocks but I'll look at that further with a mechanic.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on October 24, 2021, 05:56:19 pm
Is there any actual advantage to those engine hoods that replace the rear window?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: matramurena on October 24, 2021, 08:31:09 pm
Nope. It's just looks. Even my v6 has more then enough cooling with the window. Heard about lots of problems with rust because of rain comming in throug the airscoops of these engine hoods though.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on October 24, 2021, 09:51:06 pm
Yeah I can imagine! Well, that's a good argument to stay well away from them. I don't really like how most of them look but I noticed most body kits use them which made me wonder if it indeed either helped with cooling or forcing more air to the engine.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on October 25, 2021, 03:38:56 pm
Is there any actual advantage to those engine hoods that replace the rear window?

Not that I'm aware of, and they have one big disadvantage in the U.K. (or any country driving on the left).

They restrict the vision over the right shoulder when turning out of angled junctions, especially if they are combined with the slatted covers over the rear side windows, which I see often with those conversions.

It's possible there could be other problems too as the internal window between the cabin and the rear compartment was not designed to be an outside window, and there could be issues with air and water sealing, leading to possible lower cabin temperatures and water ingress in certain situations.  I would also suggest the aerodynamics will suffer slightly too.

Personally I think the Murena looks better with the glass too.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on October 26, 2021, 04:10:12 pm
Time for a new adventure! :S
So I noticed the gearbox is dripping fluid. I think it already did a while ago but only maybe one or two drops over a long time. If I recall correctly Roy remarked that the seals needed replacing when I posted some pictures of several of my question points last year.
I have the feeling I shouldn't hold this off much longer since the leaking seems to have increased. However I would like to limit the time I'm not able to use this car since it's also my main transport to go to work once or twice a week.
My idea was to get a spare gearbox and just swap it out with the current one so I could be back on the road quickly. However I assume a second hand salvaged gearbox may also need work no matter what the seller will claim about the condition.

That aside I think I've got the following main questions:
Are there any other cars that use the same gearbox as the 1.6 that I can search for if I can't find a 1.6 one?
Where can I find the parts I need to stop the gearbox from leaking? I tried Simon-auto who seem to have much more parts than Carjoy but I couldn't find it on the website.
And just to prepare myself mentally for the task ahead... How hard is this compared to e.g. replacing the seal on the rocker cover or the fuel and water pump?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: GP on October 26, 2021, 08:52:55 pm
Check this out.....

http://carjoy.nl/matra-shop/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=416


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on October 26, 2021, 10:01:07 pm
Yeah I seen them. Simon sells them as well at roughly the same price. And although they aren't super expensive, I hate to admit it but I can't afford that at the moment. I've seen second hand ones for a fraction of that. I realise they aren't going to be in an "as new" condition as the ones from Simon and carjoy but I hoped they could keep me driving for a while longer until I can repair the current one.  :-\


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: GP on October 27, 2021, 09:06:55 am
You could give Harry a call, he might be able to assist and get a price from him for a rebuild?  Obviously shipping is invovled.
I know he does the different 2.2 gearbox as he did mine some years ago,

https://ds-vitesse.com/en/

The job definitely isn't for a novice (probably with limited tools) and has no comparison whatsoever to replacing the seal on the rocker cover or the fuel and water pump.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on October 27, 2021, 10:40:14 am
Excellent! Thanks! I already had the suspicion I would need a hand here ;)


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on October 28, 2021, 05:22:38 pm
OK, small update, I'm going to check the gearbox with someone who has done revisions before. Its apparently probably just one or more of the seals. I'll also try and join in on the repairs where I can to try and learn as much as I can. Will update in a few weeks when we've had a look.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on November 02, 2021, 07:06:59 pm
Simple 14" steel but already much better   ;D
I do miss a little bit of the stiffer feel of the 16" so I may search for 15" alloys but I'm selling the AZEV set.
They also aligned it and informed me that the suspension on the left side might need more work than just new shocks but I'll look at that further with a mechanic.

What are the tyre sizes front and rear now on those 14" steel rims?  They just don't look right in the photo but I could be wrong.

Also the car looks to be sitting too high both front and rear, and it may be because it was raised to fit those larger AZEV wheel wheels and large tyres.  Is there a spare wheel and tyre in the front?  The car needs the weight of that for balance.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on November 02, 2021, 07:26:08 pm
Time for a new adventure! :S
So I noticed the gearbox is dripping fluid. I think it already did a while ago but only maybe one or two drops over a long time. If I recall correctly Roy remarked that the seals needed replacing when I posted some pictures of several of my question points last year.

I can't find the photos in this topic posting anywhere, were they in another posting?

I wanted to see where the leak appeared to be from, and what seals I recommended replacing.  If it is the drive shaft output seals then the transmission would need to come out or at least away from the engine I think, as the RH flange on the side next to the engine may not come off with the transmission still fitted.  The left side drive shaft seal could be changed with the transmission still fitted as that side can be accessed once the drive shaft is out.

Quote
My idea was to get a spare gearbox and just swap it out with the current one so I could be back on the road quickly. However I assume a second hand salvaged gearbox may also need work no matter what the seller will claim about the condition.

That aside I think I've got the following main questions:
Are there any other cars that use the same gearbox as the 1.6 that I can search for if I can't find a 1.6 one?
Where can I find the parts I need to stop the gearbox from leaking? I tried Simon-auto who seem to have much more parts than Carjoy but I couldn't find it on the website.
And just to prepare myself mentally for the task ahead... How hard is this compared to e.g. replacing the seal on the rocker cover or the fuel and water pump?

The complete transmission is not the same as on any other car, as it was designed to fit the mid-engined Murena.  There are parts that will be the same as the transmission is made up of parts that are fitted to various Talbot and Lancia cars but in each case they are adapted for the particular installation.

As for working on them with your very basic knowledge, no I would not recommend it.  The fact that you pose the question of how does it compare with changing the rocker cover or fuel pump gaskets (which are easy) shows you really don't have the knowledge or understanding to attempt this on your own, sorry.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on November 02, 2021, 08:08:08 pm
Hi Roy,

I'll check the wheels but the entire suspension is messed up according to the place that helped me fit the tires. They found the specs for the Murena alignment as well so they aligned it as best as they could which did help the overall feel but its still hanging off to the driver side.

I found someone who can help me with the transmission. He does his own maintenance on all his cars including a 1.6 since the 80s so I hope I'm in good hands there. And I have bought a spare 1.6 transmission just in case mine ever does go all wrong. I will have that one checked out as well.
The pictures where in another thread. Let me check if I can find it.

http://www.matrasport.dk/forum/index.php/topic,3390.0.html


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on November 06, 2021, 08:37:54 pm
Hope this image is not too big...
Just noticed this image from the brochure. Never seen these wheels before. Does anyone know if these where ever sold with the Murena and where I could find them?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: suffolkpete on November 07, 2021, 08:05:28 pm
These look like the standard wheels fitted to the 1.6.  Most people opted for the optional alloys (standard on the 2.2)  I wouldn't recommend using them because the tyre size for the rear wheels, 195/70 x 13, is no longer available  and the next size down that fits, 185/70 x 13 can cause the car to be a little tail happy.  I know this from personal experience.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on November 08, 2021, 03:31:25 pm
Hope this image is not too big...
Just noticed this image from the brochure. Never seen these wheels before. Does anyone know if these where ever sold with the Murena and where I could find them?

Those 13" diameter steel wheels were the standard fitment on a 1.6 Murena, as Peter has pointed out.  Some people opted for the 14" dia. alloy wheels, but you only got 4 on the car - the spare remained a steel 13" wheel and front tyre.  Owners may have fitted alloys later, and some of this may be since the 13" tyres are becoming difficult to obtain. They are still available but as they are classed as 'vintage' (which is strictly an incorrect term as vintage is pre-1930) then you have to pay more for them, but if you want originality, you expect to pay more.  All old car tyre sizes are produced in relatively small batches each year, usually during the tyre factory holiday periods by people like Michelin, then stored by them, and consequently 'classic' tyre sizes and patterns are obviously more expensive.

Even 14" tyre sizes are starting to get difficult now as modern cars have moved on to even larger diameters, and the largest I've seen currently are 22" diameter!  We have gone full circle from those large sizes on veteran & vintage cars, right down to 10" on (proper) Minis, and now all the way back up again.  Main reason today is to fit bigger and bigger brakes to cope with the massive (and OTT in my opinion) power and speed now obtainable.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on November 09, 2021, 10:16:58 am
Ah well that explains why I never seen them before I guess. Thanks for the additional information!!


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on November 23, 2021, 12:51:58 pm
Hi,

So my car wouldn't start last Saturday. Need to see if it's the starter motor or something else. I assume the starter but I'll have to try if I can somehow push start it by myself or pull start it with a tow car although I heard the towing rings are fragile?

In other news, I tried finding a new speedo cable and instrument panel.
(the conductive pins for the main connector are in a very bad state on mine and I suspect I won't be able to find just the plastic thing with the wiring?)

Regarding the speedo cable:
Got a quote for a new speedo cable for €75, even more than Carjoy sells them for and noticed that there's even "universal" speedo cable kits for around €10. Is there any reason to pay €55 for a speedo cable from Carjoy? Or can I just use one of those kits? I didn't see any alternatives listed on Roy's alt parts list either.

On to the starter motor. Since it's fairly likely that that's causing my starting problem I figured I'd swap it for a new one and have a stab at revising the old one. The manual steps seem fairly straightforward. However I tried to find the Valeo starter from Roy's part list and it seems to be largely out of stock. Does anyone know any others that will work on the X5J2A ? There's several parts sites that claim to have compatible ones like the 433304 Valeo or the 8EA 726 061-001 Hella. There is also some cheaper ones but these two are rated at a power of 1.2 and 1.05 KW respectively and the cheaper ones are only around 0.8 KW... figured a bit of power would be nice to have in this case?

Then finally the instrument panel.
I've gotten a quote for a used one at €125 which seems quite alright if it's otherwise in a better state than mine. Does anyone have experience what prices these normally go for?


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on November 23, 2021, 07:16:20 pm
Hi,

So my car wouldn't start last Saturday. Need to see if it's the starter motor or something else. I assume the starter...

First question is: why do you assume it's the starter motor?  Since you then say "... or something else."  If it is something else, it would probably have symptoms totally different to a starter motor failure.

Does the starter motor spin the engine over?  If it does, it is not the starter.  If it doesn't, it could be the ignition switch, the wiring, the solenoid, the motor, the battery or the earth braid; but you don't say what it is doing or not doing so you have given us no clues to what is happening and what may be wrong.

Quote
"... or pull start it with a tow car although I heard the towing rings are fragile?

These cars don't have towing rings!  They do have hold down eyes.  Those two front and one rear hold down eyes are for quick easy fastening of the car on a transporter for delivery.  However, they do get used for towing, and as long as they haven't been damaged then they are fine for 'correct towing' and by that I mean you do not snatch at the towed car.

Quote
In other news, I tried finding a new speedo cable and instrument panel.
(the conductive pins for the main connector are in a very bad state on mine and I suspect I won't be able to find just the plastic thing with the wiring?)

Regarding the speedo cable:
Got a quote for a new speedo cable for €75, even more than Carjoy sells them for...  I didn't see any alternatives listed on Roy's alt parts list either.

There is no alternative!  You have a rare car.

These cables are unique to the Murena, like many other parts, and anything unique will cost far more than a normally mass produced part.  It drives from the back of the front hub, not the gearbox, which is the usual place for attaching a speedo cable.

Quote
On to the starter motor. Since it's fairly likely that that's causing my starting problem...

If you really have got a failed starter, then I have found two within 5 minutes on eBay, one at £72 and one at £80.

The Valeo part number 433304 is correct.  You have to be aware spare part numbers change and my website is not always up to date, but you can use cross referencing to check.  (I have now updated it)

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on November 25, 2021, 10:32:30 am
If it doesn't, it could be the ignition switch, the wiring, the solenoid, the motor, the battery or the earth braid; but you don't say what it is doing or not doing so you have given us no clues to what is happening and what may be wrong.
Good point! :D

Following checks done:
•Not turning over
•Battery measured good
•After turning the ignition the dashboard lights up
•Lamps all work
•Motor: runs

Still to be checked

•Solenoid: Will listen for a click when someone else turns the ignition. **update** I used my phone as a recording device to listen for the click and I didn't hear it so this could also be the problem.

How can I check the earth braid? I assume there's other options as well I've gone by assumption it's either the starter motor or the solenoid because another driver mentioned these are more likely to fail.


They do have hold down eyes.  Those two front and one rear hold down eyes are for quick easy fastening of the car on a transporter for delivery.
Aaaah yes that explains. I've used them before to tow though so I'll just go careful with them.


There is no alternative!  You have a rare car.
Righto, Carjoy/Simon it is then unless the local Simca Club warehouse still has one. Unfortunately they haven't replied to my e-mail yet.

The Valeo part number 433304 is correct. You have to be aware spare part numbers change.
That's great news and I didn't realise this at all so I'm glad to know it!

Thanks again Roy!


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on November 25, 2021, 04:34:05 pm
Car ran when I pull started it. Even the starter motor worked some of the time when the car was running. Parked in the garage for now. Starter engine shows no more sign of life once I turned off the car.


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on November 25, 2021, 09:22:32 pm

Following checks done:
•Not turning over
•Battery measured good
•After turning the ignition the dashboard lights up
•Lamps all work
•Motor: runs

Still to be checked

•Solenoid: Will listen for a click when someone else turns the ignition. **update** I used my phone as a recording device to listen for the click and I didn't hear it so this could also be the problem.

If the engine doesn't turn over and there is no click from the starter solenoid, then you need to check the wire from the ignition switch is connected and providing 12 volts.  If the activation wire has come off the solenoid, then it gets no voltage and cannot work.  It could be that simple.  If it is connected, and there is 12 v there when the ignition key is in the start position, then it sounds like the solenoid may have failed.

Quote
How can I check the earth braid? I assume there's other options as well I've gone by assumption it's either the starter motor or the solenoid because another driver mentioned these are more likely to fail.

The earth braid is your main engine earth to carry the high current return from the starter.  It is connected from the transmission to the chassis underneath at the back.  As long as it is connected and in good order that is all you need to verify.

Roy


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: Grapes on November 28, 2021, 11:50:36 pm
OK let's talk wheels again. I am currently running winter tires on steel 14" fiat wheels and although nice I'm constantly on the look out for something new.
I searched the forums and found a thread from ages ago where you where all discussing getting wheels remade. As far as I could gather nothing has come from that. Additionally I noticed that Roy mentioned a preferred setup with 15" in front and 16" in the back.
We're a couple of years later now and I was wondering if I should indeed try and get wheels that mat h that set up because that might be ideal?

On a side note I saw a couple of very nice classic alfetta wheels for sale. All I could gather from the post was that they are 6J 14 H2 and have the correct bolt pattern. Even though they are 14 inch I would like to know if anyone knows they should fit the Murena. I figured I could use them for my winter tires...


Title: Re: Dan's 1.6 repairs
Post by: roy4matra on November 30, 2021, 12:14:39 am
OK let's talk wheels again. I am currently running winter tires on steel 14" fiat wheels and although nice I'm constantly on the look out for something new.

It's not the wheels that you need to look at first, it's the available tyres.

If you intend putting bigger wheels and tyres on the car, you need to do two things actually.  First is to see what tyre sizes are easily available, and how they suit the car from the point of view of keeping the ride height front to rear, correct.  Then you can choose the wheels which will be easier.

I did suggest using 15" front and 16" rear as one possible option, but it was some time ago and without checking if suitable tyres would be available at the time, and since it was a while ago, and tyres change all the time, what would have applied then might not be available now anyway.  The fact is 16" front wheels are really too big for the Murena and 195 width tyres on the front made the car worse the one time I drove someone else's car with those on it.  The front of the Murena is so light relatively that it really doesn't need bigger tyres and therefore wheels.

Whilst the rear can easily take 15" or 16" wheels, there are a limited number or no 215 width tyres available depending on aspect ratio, so that means choosing either 205 or 225 widths and then you have problems matching the ride heights front to rear.

Quote
We're a couple of years later now and I was wondering if I should indeed try and get wheels that mat h that set up because that might be ideal?

As I said you must check what tyres are available first, and not the wheels, and then whether the tyres that would keep the ride heights correct are actually available.  This is more complex than just picking some nice looking wheels!  For the power output of a 1.6 especially, the Murena doesn't really need any bigger wheels and tyres.

Roy