MatraSport Forum

Each model => Espace => Topic started by: Martin Tyas on December 16, 2006, 10:54:01 am



Title: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: Martin Tyas on December 16, 2006, 10:54:01 am
I know we've covered this topic before but I thought for those of you who have previously managed to clear EGR problems by the usual two methods i.e.

1) turning the ignition on and off to energise and de-energise the solenoid in the hope that it dislodges the carbon particle
2) drive it for a kilometre or so flat out in second gear

then you may like to see what to expect when neither of those two methods have worked and you need to take out and clean the EGR.

I've circled the particle of carbon that had lodged in the diaphragm and is holding it slightly open... it doesn't take much!!!

Martin


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: TheJoker on December 17, 2006, 08:33:44 pm
Blimey!!  :o That wasn't much!  ::) Thanks for posting Martin!


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: Lennart Sorth on December 19, 2006, 12:01:37 am
2) drive it for a kilometer or so flat out in second gear

A full kilometer ?! - that seems a bit harsh. I normally only do 3-5 seconds on the governor, that clears the exhaust completely, and hence hopefully the EGR.

btw - I have never actually had any EGR problems in my 20 kkm of ownership, - I  just do it preventively.

I know the previous owner did send the car in for service with "lack of power" and Roy told me that according to the internal Renault papers, they then gave it the very new model EGR valve, - which apparently has worked better in all cars.

So people with lots of EGR problems may have a remedy in replacing it with this newer version. ?

I'm sorry I haven't got the part numbers or anything, I'm just echoing what Roy told me - but I'm sure we can get Roy to enlighten us.

/Lennart


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: Martin Tyas on December 19, 2006, 01:10:43 pm
2) drive it for a kilometre or so flat out in second gear

A full kilometer ?! - that seems a bit harsh. I normally only do 3-5 seconds on the govenor, that clears the exhaust completely, and hence hopefuly the EGR.


Whatever works for you Lennart...... from my own particular experiences a short burst on full throttle often gives a James Bond style smoke screen from the exhaust but hasn't cleared the EGR when it's sticking open..... so it may be a bit harsh to run it for a kilometre or so but it has worked for me and when it's on the governor it cannot over rev.
But as you have said, what you are doing is preventative and what I've been doing is trying whatever remedies work after it's got poorly.

btw - I have never actually had any EGR problems in my 20 kkm of ownership, - I  just do it preventively.

I was speaking to someone the other day who'd had a few problems with his 6cyl diesel Audi A6.... before they even took a look at it the dealer said "I'll bet that you fuel up at the supermarket".... of course the answer was yes.
Looking at the level of carbon build up on my EGR maybe I could be paying in another way for using "cheap" diesel. Perhaps also you are using better quality diesel and having better fortune as a result.

But it isn't as though the car is used only for local running.... the two days previous it had almost 500 miles of motorway driving.

Martin


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: Lennart Sorth on December 19, 2006, 05:29:15 pm
But it isn't as though the car is used only for local running....
Cool, thats what the car really likes.

Unfortuneatly ours is mainly used for very few miles a day ... and only longer trips in the weekends.

This gets even worse now, as I have accepted a job-offer in UK (!), which will see the family divided somewhat for a few years. Then the car will do even less driving, - so we have (with bleeding heart) put it up for sale (in Denmark,  no - you DON'T want to hear the fair price)

We will have to find something small-engined, which can actually cope with such a small mileage - but still hold 4 people on rare occations. 

/Lennart


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: TheJoker on December 19, 2006, 05:38:50 pm
Congrats on the new job Lennart - where abouts in UK?


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: froggy on December 20, 2006, 12:53:02 am
My first ever post!  Here goes:

I've had a second hand 2.2Dci The Race (77k on clock) for about the last 6 months.  I've read about the problems with the EGR valve both here and on another site and hoped it won't happen to me, but during the last week I've suddenly had 3 times when I've lost power, the zig zag symbol has come up and the car has died on me.  I've got a day off work on Thursday so I'm planning to have a look at the valve and see if it needs cleaning.

Lennart - I was interested to read about the 'new model EGR valve'.  How can you tell the difference between the two because I'm interested to know if I've already got one or if I'm still using the older type?

Also Martin - thanks for the picture - very useful.  What do you recommend for cleaning it up?


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: Martin Tyas on December 20, 2006, 10:47:39 am
Also Martin - thanks for the picture - very useful.  What do you recommend for cleaning it up?

Welcome aboard.

The symptoms you describe are classic EGR valve sticking.

Firstly, if you can get hold of some latex gloves it saves trying to scrub your hands and finger nails clean for days afterwards.... the oily goo you get on the main body of the EGR is terrible to clean off and as with other carbon impregnated oils, contact with it is not good for you.
Then get the worse of the oily deposits wiped off with a cloth..... WD40 works well to soften the sticky areas.... so does petrol... but the latex gloves don't like prolonged exposure to petrol !!
The carbon deposits will have to be scrapped off or brushed off with a wire brush.... the brass wire brushes used for cleaning spark plugs work well. The body of the valve is a machined casting and the valve diaphagms are high grade steel so both will withstand scrapping but preferably not with things that are too sharp or pointed like a screwdriver.... an old kitchen knife or the handle of an old tea spoon both work well.
The diaphagms will open by pushing from the back face of either of them and then I usually wedge them open for final cleaning around the ports.
Whilst you have the diaphagms held open also clean the shaft where it travels in an out of the solenoid housing.... there is a machined groove around the shaft which also fills with deposits that are best cleaned out and is visible when the diaphagms are held fully open.
It's OK to rotate the diaphragm disks and shaft to aid cleaning and again WD40 will help soften any stubborn areas and works well on a piece of cloth for a final clean.

Hope that helps.

Martin
 


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: Lennart Sorth on December 20, 2006, 02:26:32 pm
I've lost power, the zig zag symbol has come up and the car has died on me. 
Now THAT I have experienced, - not "lack of power", but a genuine "take me home" emergency program in the computer. Managed 90km/h on a flat surface, that was it.

- however that was not the EGR, but the wires to the turbo pressure sensor, that had been severed by the aircon belt. (A plastic bracket keeping those two things apart had broken)

New sensor & wires, and the car was back on full steam again :)

Martin: Does the zigzag symbol normally come on if the EGR is stuck ?

froggy: for the moment I cannot tell you more about the "new EGR" (as I have told you all I know :-) ) - but my car had it fitted in 2004, so it is probably the version that is used on the Espace-IV ?


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: TheJoker on December 20, 2006, 02:50:16 pm
There were no symbols on when I had the problem. See the "Loss of Power" thread about what ahppened to me.


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: Lennart Sorth on December 20, 2006, 03:54:04 pm
thought so - I was just confused, as you called it "classic EGR valve sticking".


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: Martin Tyas on December 20, 2006, 04:18:52 pm
Martin: Does the zigzag symbol normally come on if the EGR is stuck ?

That seems to depend entirely upon how far the EGR is stuck open Lennart.

From my experiences I have found that if the EGR is getting sticky in operation or stuck open only a little then the zig-zag symbol does not come on, the engine is still responsive but just lacks power. Under those circumstances it is usually possible to clear the EGR by turning the ignition on and off several times or by taking the engine to full revs on the govenor for a while.

If the EGR gets stuck further open then the zig-zag symbol does come on followed by the "service" indicator light and the engine lacks responsiveness as well as power. Getting the engine to rev seems to take an age and even when it has eventually spooled up there is very little torque or pulling power. It is under this set of circumstances that I have found that the solution is to remove and clean the EGR.

After the problem had happened to me a couple of times, even though the car was still in warranty at the time, I bought a new EGR so that I wouldn't be reliant upon road side assistance or a main dealer who couldn't fit me in for 5 days when I needed the car to be somewhere in particular. I bought the EGR in 2004 and the part number is 82 00 294 794 but unless there were internal differences within the body of the valve housing the solenoid it appeared to be identical to the one fitted on the car from new in 2002.

However, I will be at a dealership tomorrow collecting a couple of parts that are only available from Renault so will make enquiries as to whether there has been any changes to the valve and if so what they are.

Martin


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: roy4matra on December 30, 2006, 06:43:13 pm
I know we've covered this topic before but I thought for those of you who have previously managed to clear EGR problems by the usual two methods i.e.

1) turning the ignition on and off to energise and de-energise the solenoid in the hope that it dislodges the carbon particle
2) drive it for a kilometre or so flat out in second gear

then you may like to see what to expect when neither of those two methods have worked and you need to take out and clean the EGR.

I've circled the particle of carbon that had lodged in the diaphragm and is holding it slightly open... it doesn't take much!!!

Martin

In the first place, yes it does only take tiny amounts of hard carbon to stop a valve from closing.  These valves are not unlike an engine valve with a small seat and anything that gets trapped in it will not only stop it closing but obviously stop the turbo boost building so you lose power.

Second, these valve heads have been known to bend or break off completely, so you should not run the engine flat out for anything like a kilometre or so to try to clear it!  If you have a valve that you think is not closing, then by all means rev. the engine to max. (and hold it on the governor) for several seconds to attempt to clear the situation.  If it is going to clear, the amount of black smoke from the exhaust will diminish each time, and after say five accelerations, the exhaust should be fairly clear.  All turbo diesels emit a bit of black smoke on rapid acceleration since the fuel increases faster than the turbo spools up to produce the increased boost, but it should not be excessive.

The problem is that what you see here on the EGR valve is only a tiny proportion of the carbon build up inside the housing, and it is this that must be removed.  Before any new EGR valve is fitted to replace one that has either been bent or broken, or fails to seat even after cleaning, then the housing MUST be thoroughly cleaned out.  To do this you must remove the housing from the car.  This is tricky but not that bad - there are much worse jobs that I would not prefer to cleaning one of these!  The carbon build up can be astonishing.  I have seen it packed inside such that you think the internal shape of the casting is far different to reality.  When it is really clean, then and only then should you refit the cleaned or new EGR valve and possibly the pipe if it hasn't been changed.

The new EGR valve has a black plastic finned body, and looks totally different to the round metal body of the earlier type.  The pipe should be stainless steel, with s.s. flanges.  The earlier ones were totally cast iron, then a s.s.pipe with cast iron flanges and finally totally s.s.  The earliest cast iron ones had a plastic mesh around the pipe too.  This is no longer fitted.

Finally, since the dashboard 'zig-zag' warning light is simply an engine management malfunction warning light, it is the code that has produced it that is important.  The EGR valve can cause it to come on of course, as can many other things.  Lack of boost, incorrect sensor readings, fuel pressures, etc. and many are inter-related, so the lack of boost may be because the EGR is not seating, but it may be some other fault.  You cannot guess anymore otherwise it may simply lead you to the wrong solution.  If you take any EGR valve out, there will be some carbon build up evident, but it doesn't necessarily mean this is the cause of your problem, so beware that you may be wasting your time and money on a false premise.

Roy


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: TheJoker on December 30, 2006, 10:05:44 pm
Excellent info, Roy! Thanks!!  8)


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: Savo on January 04, 2007, 12:54:55 am
Hi folks

here we go again my car was playing up yet again heart beat problem aka EGR Valve. decided to remove with the instructions from martin (thanks)
easy little job but very mucky, I was amayzed by the amount of carbon build up on the valve considering that it had been replaced about 5 months ago, witch leads me to another question is there some sort of addative that can be added to the fuel to stop such carbon building up ?  ???
since cleaning the EGR valve out she goes like a rocket (big silver one)  ;D

SAVO


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: 2001dci on January 10, 2007, 11:55:07 pm
Cheers guys for your help, great site!

I've also had a problem with the EGR, found with the help of this site. The fault presented itself as bad turbo lag, very slow spooling up then the normal surge of torqe. It had been comming and going for over a year, recently we had the fault light and the turbo lag was permanent. Managed to remove the egr lalve assembly, after undoing the 3 bolts the solenoid / valve slides out - it was carbonised very badly with one port almost completley blocked. Quick clean with a scredriver and refitted. Result, a turbo that spins up nice and early (missed badly, when this engines off boost its gutless) as normal.
John


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: froggy on January 28, 2007, 11:04:21 pm
Just want to say thank you to Martin and Lenart for the excellent advice you gave me about a month ago.  Cleaning up my EGR valve was an easy job with your instructions and photos.  Thank you.

Unfortunately, having cleaned up the valve I set off to my parents house for Christmas with my wife and three children (approx 300 mile journey) and that's when the real problems started!  It died on me in the fast lane of the M5 on the way there (not good when the power steering gets heavy in the fast lane), and again a couple of times over Christmas.  Then on the return journey we did 100 miles, stopped in the services, and then after that I couldn't do more than a couple of hundred yards without it dying.  Finally we ended up getting Green Flag to take us home.
I've had it in the local Renault Dealer for a diagnostic check and I'm told it's a Fuel Injector fault and that as Renault only sell a full set of 4 I'll have to replace the lot - total bill just short of £1000.  Now as we didn't happen to have £1000 sat around (well you don't when you have young children do you?) I took it away to think about it.  Since then I've got to a point where I know when It'll happen and how to avoid it.  It only happens when I reach the third bar on the temperature gauge (it's fine when it's cold), and once I reach that third bar if I drive it really gently it's OK.  As soon as you put your foot down it dies again.
Seems that I'm just going to have to bite the bullet some time and get on with it, but I'll probably get a 2nd opinion from an independent diesel specialist first because I keep reading about people with similar problems who have changed the injectors, then the EGR valve, then the turbo seals, then the fuel pump, etc and not got to the bottom of the problem.

Any advice?


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: Anders Dinsen on January 29, 2007, 09:17:08 am
Sorry to hear about your problems :(

Not really any advice but... I agree with you that getting a second opinion is a GOOD THING.

Fingers crossed here!

- Anders


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: TheJoker on January 29, 2007, 09:58:39 am
You must get a second opinion. Sorry if I offend some Renault mechanics or garages here, but these guys aren't trained in actually repairing your car, they're trained it changing parts - in other words, they seem to have an idea where the problem is, and then the "enlarge the circle" a bit more to "make sure" the problem goes away with the fix. So if you have a bad exhaust valve, they'll "enlarge the circle" to the cylinder head, and recommend you change it.

No idea of replacing the valve and fixing the problem...  >:(

To me they recommended a new engine and a new turbo because they couldn't place the noise coming from the engine. (So they enlarged to the whole engine!) - Their estimate was £6739 - My repair bill, including new disks, was less than £1300...

Don't let them get you!

And btw, you've already diagnosed part of the problem; only occurrs when it's warm.

Best of luck!


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: TheJoker on March 22, 2007, 10:53:58 am
Mine got an asthma attack a few days ago... blimey does it smoke black when you run it pedal to the metal! :) As previous, I think it got caused by me almost stalling the engine (put in 3rd instead of 1st by mistake).

It dislodged itself and has been fine since.  8)


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: roy4matra on July 10, 2007, 11:23:15 pm
... and that's when the real problems started!  It died on me in the fast lane of the M5 on the way there (not good when the power steering gets heavy in the fast lane), and again a couple of times over Christmas.  Then on the return journey we did 100 miles, stopped in the services, and then after that I couldn't do more than a couple of hundred yards without it dying.  Finally we ended up getting Green Flag to take us home.

I've had it in the local Renault Dealer for a diagnostic check and I'm told it's a Fuel Injector fault and that as Renault only sell a full set of 4 I'll have to replace the lot - total bill just short of £1000...

... Since then I've got to a point where I know when It'll happen and how to avoid it.  It only happens when I reach the third bar on the temperature gauge (it's fine when it's cold), and once I reach that third bar if I drive it really gently it's OK.  As soon as you put your foot down it dies again.

Seems that I'm just going to have to bite the bullet some time and get on with it, but I'll probably get a 2nd opinion from an independent diesel specialist first because I keep reading about people with similar problems who have changed the injectors, then the EGR valve, then the turbo seals, then the fuel pump, etc and not got to the bottom of the problem.

Any advice?

Yes, don't listen to that dealer!  Change injectors for a temperature related problem!?  What are they doing?!!

In the first place, if it dies when it gets hot, but only if you open the throttle up, and it keeps going if you keep it on a small throttle, it doesn't sound like injectors to me at all.  It sounds more like a faulty sensor or signal.  It's certainly odd, and not one I've come across yet, but common sense tells you a certain amount.  Do you know what fault codes are generated?  I need more information and for something like this would probably need to see the vehicle so that you can see specific diagnostic readings when being tested.  Where about do you live?

Roy


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: EspaceUser on September 16, 2007, 08:57:29 pm
I am having the loss of power option and want to clean my EGR valve, can anyone supply a photo of where it is and how to take it of, and what I should use to clean it

 Mines is a 2002 (02) 2.2 DCI Privilege :-\

thanks in advance


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: Martin Tyas on September 19, 2007, 12:26:22 pm
Hi and welcome to the forum.

The EGR valve on a 2.2dCi is reasonably accessible and is located below the air filter housing at the front of the engine. There are 3 bolts and an electrical connector to remove before the EGR can be withdrawn from the housing. I've circled the electrical connector and 2 of the bolts in the attached photo... I'm sure you can guess where the other one is located ::)

To remove the electrical connector insert a flat bladed screwdriver into the slot arrowed on the photograph and lever it over slightly to the left to release the retainer whilst at the same time pulling up the connector body (not by the wires  ;)). Don't insert the screwdriver too far into the slot otherwise you can't release the retainer... only about 2 to 3mm.

You'll need a 10mm socket or ring spanner to remove the bolts. The valve is quite a tight fit in the housing but will come out by rotating it slightly whilst pulling on the valve body. Don't be tempted to insert a screwdriver or similar between the valve and the housing in order to prise it out as the housing is aluminium and is therefore easily damaged and there is also a reusable steel gasket between the valve and the housing.

Also be careful not to drop the EGR after it's withdrawn from the housing because the starter motor is below that and it could come as a bit of a surprise if you haven't disconnected the battery before working on the car.... the positive terminal on the starter is exposed so the valve can act as an earthing connector and the starter motor therefore unexpectedly engage  :o

Here's the messy bit.... I'd get yourself some latex gloves or plenty of old clothes unless you want to be scrubbing your hands clean for days afterwards.  I've attached a photo of an EGR with carbon build up and in this case a piece of carbon that is lodged in one of the two diaphragms preventing it from closing. You will need to scrape off as much of the carbon build-up as possible but try to avoid using sharp or pointed objects in order to avoid the risk of damage. Once you've scrapped off most of the heavy carbon deposits then some WD40 helps to soften, remove and clean any residue. The diaphragms can be carefully pushed up with your finger on the back face and also rotated to allow you to remove carbon from the valve seats. It's also best to remove any carbon build-up from the shaft where it comes out of the solenoid housing... there is a small groove that tends to fill with carbon.

I've also attached a photo of a valve that has been cleaned so you know what the whole thing looks like.
Hope that helps

Martin


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: TheJoker on June 16, 2008, 01:23:18 pm
I just thought that I'd post a link to my EGR Valve clean up.
http://picasaweb.google.com/the.joxor/EspaceEGRValveCleanUp
It was incredibly filthy, and it was incredibly messy to do it. It took me about 1h40min to do it with good tools but bad cleaners. I didn't stress at all. The result is probably about 10bhp more and a much much perkier engine, without any ECU complaints. YAY all round! I highly recommend doing this!

The tools I used included a Halfords small ratchet kit, and the extension bar was perfect length to reach the bolt that is behind the EGR valve. It was an absolute doddle to remove it with these tools.

I must also point out that my turbo is leaking a bit, which probably counts for the wet oil in the pictures. I'm keeping the turbo as it is for now as it might run for ages as it stands, hopefully it won't start pouring the oil into the combustion chamber.  ::)

Thanks for the excellent information!


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: Anders Dinsen on June 21, 2008, 04:03:33 pm
That's an excellent piece of photo documentation you have made there!

I must also point out that my turbo is leaking a bit, which probably counts for the wet oil in the pictures. I'm keeping the turbo as it is for now as it might run for ages as it stands, hopefully it won't start pouring the oil into the combustion chamber.  ::)

There has been a few examples of runaway engines because of this - they generally don't stop until they blow up :(
Personally I'd start looking for a new turbo...

- Anders


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: TheJoker on June 21, 2008, 04:07:39 pm
There has been a few examples of runaway engines because of this - they generally don't stop until they blow up :(
Personally I'd start looking for a new turbo...

Thanks, and yes, I'm aware of that, "slight" problem with the turbo-oil-leak. I'm going to get it fixed, just don't know when, and until then, I'll keep my fingers crossed..  :o  :-[


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: ianP on July 14, 2008, 08:23:00 pm
Hi there,

to all of you out there that have had problems with your EGR-valves (of which I think there are one or two  ;) ),  what was the common symptom (if there is a 'common' symptom).   I currently have a a performance problem and rather noisy car.  It's been to a garage today who say theres nothing wrong with the performance (yeh - right  ::) - but,  for some reason they've change the EGR valve????  as you obviously do when there's nothing wrong with a car!   haven't had the car back yet so have no idea if that's fixed the problem. 

It's been sounding to me over the last couple of days as if there could be a problem with the exhaust blowing, which obviously can have an impact on the performance.  (Anders has also suggested that it could be this).

Do problems with EGR valves usually only noticably affect performance,  or can these problems ever manifest themselves in a rather noisy, car very rough to drive way?

If anybody out there could let me know the symptoms you've experienced with a verified EGR problem, it would be much appreciated... at least it will give me more ammo to shoot the garage with!!!

Thanks Ian.


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: Martin Tyas on July 15, 2008, 12:12:21 pm
You have it exactly right Ian.... why would they change the EGR if there is supposedly nothing wrong with the carís performance? Despite it's size and weight (and I have a Grand) the Espace with a 2.2dCi can be a surprisingly responsive and powerful car when you want/need it to be.

A faulty or badly carboned up EGR most definitely does affect performance. In my experience, other than the engine lacking responsiveness and pulling power there are no hard and fast rules as to the extent of the performance drop because that largely depends upon how far the diaphragms of the EGR are wedged open and therefore how much by-pass you are getting past the partially open valves.

The EGR is mechanically closed (spring pressure) and opened electro-mechanically by the solenoid in the part of the EGR valve that is left outside of the diffuser body (the alloy housing into which the EGR is mounted). What tends to happen is that the diaphragms and valves seats get a build up of carbon over time which prevents them from fully closing.... or.... particles of carbon are dislodged from inside the diffuser and get wedged in one of the diaphragm seats holding it open. The extent of the performance/power loss is obviously largely dependent upon how big a particle and therefore how far the valve is wedged open.

Iíve had circumstances when itís occurred when just moving off and been left with barely enough power to get into second gear but Iíve also had an EGR stick on a motorway and it would still happily cruise at 70 mph but come to an incline or try to overtake and there is just nothing there... itís completely gutless.

The common denominator I have found is that when I have had the EGR stick open due to particles of carbon it seems to have always been when the engine has been laboured.... either setting off without giving it enough revs or cruising and then coming to a gradient. In those situations the engine is obviously trying to draw in more air and that seems to be when any carbon build up can become dislodged. Itís a bit like an asthma or panic attack... the harder one tries to breathe the worse the problem becomes.

Sometimes a sticking EGR (if itís a particle wedged as opposed to a general excessive build up of carbon) can be cleared by switching the ignition on and off a few times to energise the solenoid and hope that the particle drops out.... but there is some risk of cooking the glowplugs if you do that too many times in one short stint and leave the ignition on too long each time because the glow plugs are obviously heating up but havenít cooled down much before they are being energised again.
Other methods include running the engine up to the governor limit in low gear for a short burst to try to dislodge the wedged particle and when it first happened to me and I called out the breakdown service the AA man gave the EGR solenoid a wack with a hammer :o ::).... and if those methods fail then it means getting dirty.
Roy, our resident Renault Trained Engineer who drops by the forum when he has time, understandably advocates not only cleaning or replacing the EGR valve itself but also removing the carbon build-up inside the diffuser into which the EGR is mounted.

Hope that your Espace feels much better when you get it back because if it does then you will enjoy it.

Martin


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: ianP on July 15, 2008, 08:27:43 pm
Martin, thanks very much for the reply...  my (well - my cars) symptoms are exactly as you've described them - yes - it will get to 90mph, but it takes an awful lot of noisy pushing to get it there.  Show it a hill and it point blank refuses! makes lots of noise - but that's about it).  I know a lot of people experience quite serious failures (cars cutting out, etc)...  so i should think myself lucky.  It just feels like  a 'sick' car.

I phoned the dealer again today who's still looking into it.  The garage actually 'removed and cleaned' the valve as it was showing up as a fault on the computer...  fully that,  I thought I've taken it out on the weekend and cleaned it up until if was gleamed!  (I must of cleaned up the other EGR  by mistake  ;) )...  but -  apparently the fault has now been cleared after a re-test with the computer.  Could have worked a second time, but I'm not holding my breath!

Anyway, will post back when I get the car back in a day or 2...

Thanks again for your very comprehensive reply

Best regards,
Ian


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: TheJoker on July 16, 2008, 11:58:59 am
When my 2.2 dCi is working properly you can feel the turbo pressure kick in. In 2nd gear, low rpms, floor the throttle, and you should have a sudden very noticeable boost. That's the all OK. the more gunk I have in my EGR valve and indeed my diffuser, the flatter that boost feels.

Roy, our resident Renault Trained Engineer who drops by the forum when he has time, understandably advocates not only cleaning or replacing the EGR valve itself but also removing the carbon build-up inside the diffuser into which the EGR is mounted.

Because of the large build up in my EGR and diffuser, I'm now expecting to actively clean out the EGR valve several times, just to get it all out.
If anyone has got any good tips on what solutions to use to clean the goo off, please let me know. I'm thinking of leaving the EGR valve in some Gunk degreaser over night, but if there's something better. Let me know, please! :)

PS, just got back from another fantastic trip to Germany - 1000 miles or so. Lovely!


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: ianP on July 17, 2008, 09:06:16 pm
Hi,  same here...  flat as a pancake!  Not had my car back from the garage yet so not sure if them cleaning the EGR for the second time will have helped...  forgive my for my ignorance here,  but...  what's the diffuser for (and where do I find it?)...  please don't say it's at the back of the engine  :o   Is this the 'chunk' of metal the EGR's housed in?  I haven't cleaned that out yet (but will attempt to on the weekend if there's no difference on it's return).

I cleaned my EGR with some petrol - works a treat (all apart from the thicker bits which I went at with the spoon).   I was dubious of leaving it too long in anything too caustic as the plastic bit the plug would probably have melted... 

So this is something you are now doing on a regular basis?

How often?

Ian.


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: TheJoker on July 17, 2008, 10:10:56 pm
I don't clean it on a regular basis, but having seen the amount of goo in there, I'm expecting that I have to.


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: Martin Tyas on July 18, 2008, 09:05:52 am
To give another perspective on frequency of EGR removal and cleaning.... my 2.2dCi has covered over 17,000 miles since I last had an episode with a particle of carbon in one of the diaphragms.

Also, there are other factors that can and do come in to play
- driving style
- type of motoring... all local... mostly motorway... or combination
- quality of oil used
- quality of fuel used
- whether just the EGR has been previously cleaned and replaced or the diffuser housing cleaned as well

So just the same as with the extent of performance loss due to an EGR issue as I've previously mentioned, the same applies to frequency..... there isn't a rule book.

Martin


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: ianP on July 20, 2008, 04:07:30 am
Hi,  as expected,  I picked my car back up from the dealer after they'd sorted out the problems - and it's still the same.   I'm sticking with the assumption that there's still an EGR problem for the moment (as have no idea what else it could be).

I was wondering if it's worth me trying to clean out the EGR valve housing?  The valve itself is now very clean and seems to operate quite smoothly...  I know various people on this forum have had some success with this - and also advocate cleaning this at the same time as the valve,  so thought I should give it a go to rule our the EGR as the cause of my problem (or obviously fix it).

I've started the job of removing the housing but it seems to be quite a big job (bigger than I thought it was going to be)!

What I've done so far is...

  • Removed the air filter and housing.
  • Removed the 4 bolts from the top of the housing
  • slackened off the 2 clips on the hose going into the housing
  • I've also removed the EGR valve

Problem is, I can't really take the top off the housing until the hose is removed - but can't do that until the rather large 'plastic thing' above it is removed (I have no idea what this is!)...  there's about 10 bolts in it.  I stopped there to seek some professional advice!

Could anybody send me some instructions of the most efficient way to remove the housing (I think I may be going about it the wrong way)...

Also, I'm not a mechanic (computer programmer actually -  so have really soft hands!) - don't mind getting them dirty however and would be able to follow some instructions on this... but -   please tell me if you think this job should be left to a 'pro'.  I'd hate to take it apart then not be able to put it all back together again (couldn't stand the embarrasement or getting it towed to a garage by a 'proper' mechanic with half the engine missing!)  ;D

Thanks for your assistance.

Ian


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: Martin Tyas on July 21, 2008, 11:56:35 am
Remove the bottom hose from the diffuser housing and also the steel/cast tube that goes to the block. Then remove the 3 bolts that secure the diffuser housing to the engine block. The diffuser can then be lowered away from the top hose..... but.... as it seems from your description that you have already removed the 4 bolts from the upper section then you can separate the two parts as you lower the diffuser and then remove the upper section from the upper hose.
A cautionary point... the EGR and diffuser are above the starter motor and the positive terminal is exposed so either disconnect the battery or be very careful that you don't drop any of the bolts or tools that could complete a circuit between the terminal and earth (such as the engine block) and give you a surprise  :o

If you want to know what the diffuser housing should look like without the carbon then here's one I made earlier  ;)

Martin


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 21, 2008, 12:53:29 pm
You are showing off, aren't you Martin! Wow...
I think this would look more like what you'd find in the real world :D



Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: ianP on July 21, 2008, 11:32:55 pm
Nice illustration Anders...  being as artistic as you obviously are, how can you be any good at fixing cars?  ;D
 


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: ianP on July 21, 2008, 11:42:44 pm
Hi Martin,  thanks for the reply... I'm not far off then by the look of it.  That does seem to be an easier way than I was imagining.  Good point about the starter motor also... I'll be careful about that (will use a cloth to cover it before I dismantle anything else).

How did you get the diffuser that clean by the way?  looks like a new part.

Will try this out on Friday (I'm off work) - only problem is - I'm driving my family to France on Saturday so if it doesn't all go back together and we miss our ferry,  I'm going to have to blame you  ;)   

I'll let you know how I get on.

Cheers,
Ian


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: Martin Tyas on July 22, 2008, 08:39:59 am
How did you get the diffuser that clean by the way?  looks like a new part.

That's because it is a new part  ;) ;D ;D

The very first time I had a problem that turned out to be the EGR I had called out the AA breakdown service. The second time I sorted it myself but discovered that the AA man must have needed a spare bolt for something else because he'd only put 2 back in!!. Whether he'd cross-threaded it trying to put the bolt back in... it was the least accessible one under the valve.... and then given up I don't know but it's never since felt like it would hold if I tried to really tighten it fully.
The bolts are M6 (6mm threads/10mm hex head) and my plan was to tap it out to M7. Although not very common I did manage to get hold of some M7's (seemingly they are used on Japanese motorbikes!!) but the problem I encountered was with the EGR. The two halves of the EGR (solenoid and valve body) are assembled together using like eyelets.... they rivet the two components together and the mounting bolts go through them. The problem I encountered is that there is insufficient material in the eyelets to stand being opened up enough to accommodate a 1mm larger diameter bolt.
Being tight for time and needing to get the car back on the road quickly on that occasion I decided to order a replacement diffuser (just over £50 at the time) thinking that it would save me time not only with sorting out the problem thread (that would have had to be helicoiled) but also the time to clean it.
However, the replacement diffuser didn't arrive next day so in the meantime I had a rumage through a tub of old nuts and bolts in the garage and found a 9/32" BSF (left over from a 1963 MGB that I'd sold in 1977 but just knew the bits would come in handy some time :D) that did the job just fine.
So, the new diffuser has been sat in the garage ever since... the plan being to replace it when I next had an EGR issue.... but it's done 17,000 miles since.

BTW... thanks for getting my hand so dirty with your carbon deposits Anders  ;) :D
Martin


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: Anders Dinsen on July 23, 2008, 05:32:57 pm
Nice illustration Anders...  being as artistic as you obviously are, how can you be any good at fixing cars?  ;D
 

Haha.... good question! ;D
I'm afraid the answer is - I'M NOT, I just like talking about fixing cars :D

BTW... thanks for getting my hand so dirty with your carbon deposits Anders

No problem, I'm always at your service :D


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: joejoe on August 11, 2008, 01:14:57 am
Hi,
would an obvious answer to all these EGR problems not be to simply disconnect / blank the valve off.

No one can tell me that pumping dirty exhaust gasses into the air intake of any engine is good for it, just look at the crud that is sitting there in the inlet manifold & this will be all over the inlet valves etc....it's just silly.







Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: Sommerby on September 03, 2008, 11:16:22 pm
I have now been doing more than 60.000km with my 2.2DCI and had to clean the EGR valve frequently until I decided simply to disconnect it after a cleaning.
Aften then I have been running at least 30.000km without EGR related problems. 
(during the 60.000km I have had 3 back wheel bearings replaced, fuelpump replaced, clutch replaced, 4 glow plugs replaced, but I still love the bugger  :)
 


Best Regards
Bo


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: MarkJHarris on November 10, 2008, 07:02:18 pm
Hi all.

New to the forum and owner of a 2006 model 2.2Dci. The Diffuser lookes like mine, mine as a solenoid operated EGR valve. Car gives crap fuel consumption and soots under power. Clearly the boost is going somewhere except into the engine as it's not as perky as I'd expected.

It is an Auto box though.....

My biggest problem as it's under warranty still, and the local dealer is not exactly helpful. I took the EGR out and cleaned it up, and the inner valve head is sealing properly, as petrol won't flow through, but the outer one is still 1/2mm open. Where does the air vented out of this go to? if it's going round and back into the engine, then that must be a balance valve to stop boost pressure holding the valve shut, but if it's meant to be sealed properly, can someone tell me please.

They tell me it's fine, but I have previous experience of main dealer mechanics here on the Isle of Man.



Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: roy4matra on November 12, 2008, 10:46:33 pm
Hi,
would an obvious answer to all these EGR problems not be to simply disconnect / blank the valve off.

Well, yes, you could disconnect and blank it off, but then the emissions will exceed the limits it was designed for - don't blame the manufacturers entirely here, as they have to design their engines and systems to meet the limits set in Brussels.  And what you are also saying is that 'you couldn't care less about the environmental pollution as long as your vehicle runs fine'.  If everyone takes that attitude, then we will soon be back to pre-emission controlled pollution levels...

Quote
No one can tell me that pumping dirty exhaust gasses into the air intake of any engine is good for it, just look at the crud that is sitting there in the inlet manifold & this will be all over the inlet valves etc....it's just silly.

It's got nothing to do with being good for the engine - the manufacturers have to meet the stringent emission levels set by the law makers.  These cover all the various gaseous type pollution as well as particulate emissions.  Very often to meet these rules, the things they have to do are the opposite of what they would do if they just wanted good drive ability, performance, or good fuel consumption.  With EGR, they are re-circulating a small amount of exhaust gas to lower the nitrous oxides if I remember correctly, and yes, it does reduce the power too, because instead of a full cylinder charge of clean air and fuel, some of the space is taken up by the re-circulated exhaust gases.  It's not what they would do given a free hand but they have to meet the regulations otherwise they cannot sell the vehicles.

When they first came out with the particulate traps for diesels that burnt them off periodically (again to meet current legislation), these were fine for cars used on the open roads, but in cities like London they were hopeless.  The car would fail in just 60 miles, since they never ran fast enough or long enough to go through a burn cycle - the instruction was to drive for twenty minutes at no less than 70 kph!  Where in London can you get up to 70 kph (legally) for even a few minutes let alone twenty!!

One of the great problems with lots of todays regulations is that they are often drawn up by people who don't understand the systems, technology, or problems they cause, but they simply write the rules regardless.  It is only years later they come to realise they have created more problems than they have cured...  Leaded fuel was far less a hazard than the low-leaded that we are now forced to use.  It is highly carcinogenic and has higher particulates, whilst the type of lead used (TEL) itself was harmless to humans - it was poison to catalytic convertors which the Americans were insisting on.  I have reams of data on these things which shows how we took the wrong decisions but that is what happens when you let politicians and marketing people rule...

Sorry for the rant, but if you want to disconnect your EGR, go ahead, but it seems we are all wasting our time and money.

Roy


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: MarkJHarris on November 19, 2008, 09:24:31 pm
Roy or anyone,

Can you tell me if that outer valve is meant to be fuly closed and where the gas it does vent goes to please? I'm intrigued, and Diesel is still £1:15.9p where I live!!


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: roy4matra on November 22, 2008, 11:35:39 am
Roy or anyone,

Can you tell me if that outer valve is meant to be fuly closed and where the gas it does vent goes to please? I'm intrigued, and Diesel is still £1:15.9p where I live!!

Yes both valves are meant to close and seal.  If one of yours does not then strictly it is faulty.  However, I have never looked where the passage leads and as I don't have a vehicle to check, I can't say for certain, but surely as the gas comes from the exhaust and leads to the inlet, the dirty side is from the exhaust and the clean side leads to the intake?  When open the gases pass the valves to get to the intake.  When closed the clean air passes the EGR valve to get to the inlet, but does not mix with any exhaust gas?  So it leads to the inlet?  If I get a chance to see one, I'll take a look.  As I said in another thread though, I'm no longer doing work for a local Renault dealer, so I won't necessarily get the chance that soon.

Roy


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: MarkJHarris on November 22, 2008, 06:24:55 pm
Thanks Roy.

My outer valve is definitely slightly open, so must be misadjusted, but my dealer claims it's all fine. As it's under warranty, and I live on an Island, I'll have to wait until april to start fixing it myself....can't wait.

My car definitely smokes under acceleration, even light acceleration. If my theory that the second valve is to balance pressures and not let boost of vacuum affect the operation, then I may be onto something.

Roll on Spring, and thanks again.


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: ianP on March 18, 2009, 07:44:01 am
Hi,  just reporting in on the latest EGR related issue I've had with my Espace...  it's been running 'ok' for a while - still quite noisy / rattly  but at least it's been running and has felt quite powerful.

last week driving to work, for some reason the car would simply not accelerate (I mean 20mph max on the flat, tried a hill and had to stop and turn around)... floored it in frustration, which seemed to help a bit (started me thinking about the EGR valve again!).

On leaving work, pulled out of carpark, 'beeeeep'... warning light and car in limp mode.   AA   plugged in and fault read as 'sooted up EGR valve' (he was actually quite surprised at the level of detail in the message!).... anyway, he took it out, gave it a quick clean and put it back in - in the process, losing 1 of the bolts!

The car actually went really well for 1 day - felt powerful,  quite difficult to explain, but it felt like she could finally breath.

1 day later, back to running very poorly again...  I took out the valve and gave it a more thorough clean, now it's on about 75% performance but i've got some quite alarming pinking / tapping going on!

 It seams to me as whenever you take out the valve, clean it and put it back, that you get a slightly different car each time - sometimes noisy, quieter, powerful, not so powerful (noisy and not so powerful at the moment)...

I've called it a day with the existing valve - it's been out so many times that it's actually in half now! there are 2 bolts holding it in and the metal gasket has probably seen better days.  Started looking about for a new valve but they seem to be quite expensive (been quoted around £150 - £160 -  thats around 150 - 160 euros  :'( )
-  anyone recommend a supplyier - with good value / quality valve?

Would you advise that I get this fitted by a qualified mechanic? -  I can get the thing in and out in under 30mins now,  and begrudge paying some garage 2 hours labour for the job...    would anyone recommend any other bits need to be changed with the EGR valve?   would a garage do anything with the ECU (that obviously I can't from home) to tell it that there's a new valve, etc...  or should the car just work this out for itself?


Thanks in advance for the help

Regards,
Ian.


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: renaultbiler on March 18, 2009, 05:19:04 pm
Put in a new one and unplug the control cable. End of EGR trouble as you know it. Proven reliable on several cars home here, even with heavy caravan towing.


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: ianP on March 18, 2009, 06:48:20 pm
Glad to hear it!  Damned EGR valve - never knew what one was until I bought the espace - I even dream about them now!  one question - why disconnect it (I'm assuming you're talking about the bigger plug in the end of the valve not the 'other' smaller plug - plugged somewhere else  ??? )?  won't this just stop the valve from working all together?

Cheers for the reply... 


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: TheJoker on March 19, 2009, 12:04:23 am
I've just cleaned mine... man it's dirty. Well, I've had a leaking Turbo since day one 20,000 miles ago, so I shouldn't complain as I haven't fixed that.  ::)

And out of curiosity, if you unplug it, won't it give an ECU error...?  ???


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: ianP on March 19, 2009, 08:30:08 pm
Hi, I understand from other posts in this thread that unplugging could increase the emmissions - but yes, how does it help, and why wouldn't this confuse the ECU?  if the valve is constantly closed, this means you have 100% of the boost all of the time? with no boost escaping through the exhaust?  I can see how this is a bad thing whilst thinking about the planet - but whilst thinking about sorting out my car (I know, pales in to insignificance in comparisson - but I'm only human!) - disconnecting would at least tell he if the EGR is faulty - right? (if it's not functioning correctly, disconnecting will close it - full boost - performance better?  if still bad, then probably stuck open? 

Out of curiosity, how do you know your turbos on it's way out, the oil deposits on the EGR?  mine has a bit of oil on it everytime I take it out - not a huge amount, but a bit - does this mean I've got a potential turbo problem also? (please say No...)

Cheers,
Ian.

 



Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: TheJoker on March 20, 2009, 10:35:55 am
Ian,

Yes, you're correct (as far as I know) that in the default state the valve doesn't let exhaust circulate. However, my concern is that the ECU would throw a wobbly when it can't detect the EGR valve in place. Having said that, the EGR valve has never caused my car to not start. Just going asthmatic, so I'm not going to disable it. I'll try to pull my weight for this green earth as long as it's feasible.

Out of curiosity, how do you know your turbos on it's way out, the oil deposits on the EGR?  mine has a bit of oil on it everytime I take it out - not a huge amount, but a bit - does this mean I've got a potential turbo problem also? (please say No...)

Well, I know because first Renault told me I needed a new one, then my friend, who took the whole engine out, told me that too. And my turbo isn't on it's way out, it's "just" leaking oil. And as such, it can burst at any time causing the engine to run on engine oil instead of diesel causing the engine to overrev and suck itself dry. Total recipe for disaster. On the other hand it can run like this for years and years and years without any problems.
But, yes, it sounds a bit like you might have the similar problem as I can see some soft oily deposits within the EGR valve.
When I first opened it up, it looked like this...
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_RYaCsvd_Rss/SFZKOMPceoI/AAAAAAAABaU/vSdptROPxNE/s800/CIMG1680.JPG)
It wasn't nearly as bad when I opened it up the other day. Pays to keep it clean, methinks.


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: renaultbiler on March 20, 2009, 05:12:36 pm
These dont flag any faults visually (warning lights) or on performance as far as i know if egr is disconnected, other models like Kangoo etc will light up the MIL lamp in this case but not the Espace.
Disconnecting it will not cause it to eventually stick open due to soot - because it is always shut as it is most of the time anyhow.


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: roy4matra on April 04, 2009, 09:14:15 am
... the EGR valve has never caused my car to not start. Just going asthmatic, so I'm not going to disable it. I'll try to pull my weight for this green earth as long as it's feasible.

Quite right.  A stuck EGR valve is not the cause if your engine won't start.  The boost won't be able to build, so the performance will be poor, and you will be effectively causing more pollution as the system will be over-fuelling without the additional air (oxygen).  If you have starting problems then you need to look elsewhere even if the EGR is dirty and needs cleaning/replacing.

Quote
When I first opened it up, it looked like this...
(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_RYaCsvd_Rss/SFZKOMPceoI/AAAAAAAABaU/vSdptROPxNE/s800/CIMG1680.JPG)
It wasn't nearly as bad when I opened it up the other day. Pays to keep it clean, methinks.

Two things here: this and other photos I've seen on this topic all show an early EGR valve, and this was replaced by a better one (plastic ribbed outer body) which was generally fitted under warranty; so why have so many still got the old one?  Obviously these cars never went back to a dealer and had the valve replaced under warranty, but why?  This is often what happens when people don't take the car to a dealer and complain but either take it to an independent garage or do it themselves.  This appears to save money, but then you never benefit from the upgrades...

Second, if the valve is in this sort of condition when you remove it, then you MUST clean out the complete housing and manifold NOT just the valve.  I pointed this out much earlier in this thread, but not many are doing it judging by your responses.  If you don't thoroughly clean out ALL the carbon, then small particles from all the crap still left in there will keep getting back in.

Once your system is clean, as long as you keep it that way by regularly doing full accelerations to the governor during your driving, there should be no need to keep removing it to clean.  The procedure is quite simple - at least once in a journey if you do lots of short runs, or mostly city type driving, hold full throttle in a low gear (1st or 2nd) until it hits the governor and keep it there for a few seconds, no more.  If you noticed a lot of black exhaust smoke, then do this a few times until the exhaust is virtually clear.  This will clear out excess carbon.  If your type of driving entails more open road and fast running, then the build up will be much less anyway if everything is running correctly, but you should carry out this full throttle procedure at least once a week or so to keep the exhaust clean.

Then, as Lennart pointed out with his, you should have no problems with the EGR and you won't need to keep stripping it to clean.  But remember, if you have removed the valve and found it badly carboned up, you must clean out everything not just the valve itself.

Regarding this particular picture, it should not have the oily mess.  That suggests there is more oil coming from the turbo than is correct.  You will always get some small amount of oil in the inlet system from the turbo, but it should not be excessive; and EGR valves should mostly have dry carbon if they are dirty.  So this engine has a turbo oil leak that is above normal, and you need to keep an eye on your oil usage.  Once it gets excessive, you will have to change the turbo or suffer the consequences.

Roy


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: stu.s on June 05, 2009, 01:42:30 am

Martin,
I wonder if you or anyone else can help.  I have recently aquired a grand espace 2.2DCi with a major underpower issue that this thred seems to cover.  However, in your photo of the location of the EGR valve, there is a second connector from wires comming out of the same conduit as those that go to the EGR valve.  In the photo, the connector seems to go to some type of sensor above the EGR valve.  Mine doesn't have this!  Just the connector hanging free!  I wonder if someone can enlighten me as to what this connector goes to and what it does?  Thanks, Stuart.


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: Martin Tyas on June 05, 2009, 10:50:49 am
Hi and welcome

From new that connector is "parked" on a plastic retaining clip mounted to the air cleaner support bracket and so was mine when I took that photograph. But since the plastic clip got brittle and cracked and then my redundant connector was also hanging free until I tie-wrapped it to the wiring going to the EGR. I haven't looked at the wiring diagram to see what the connector it is for but it will no doubt be used on another variant but is not connected to anything on a 2.2dCI.
I hope you get your lack of power issue resolved

Martin


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: stu.s on June 05, 2009, 11:45:24 am
Thanks for such a speedy reply Martin.  I will continue with my plan then to remove and inspect/clean the EGR valve tomorrow morning.  I have a 2001 espace, but it has the newer black bodied EGR valve so I'm curious to know how good or bad it is going to look when I get it out!  I hope this does sort out the problem, as I don't think the power it has makes it safe enough to drive the family in - hills on motorways and busy junctions leave us feeling more than a little exposed!
In my espace at the moment, I can only use about 50% of the accelerator travel, more than that for any more than a couple of seconds sees the car going into limp mode that people here have described.  The three times it has done that to me I have felt embarrassed AND scared at the same time!
Thanks for your help, I'll let you know how it goes.
Stuart.


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: TheJoker on June 05, 2009, 12:13:21 pm
Hi Stu. Welcome!
It's my EGR valve that's in the picture above.  :o Do clean the valve out first, to see if it helps. It's a 45min job if you take it easy and it's very dirty. Get some good cleaner though as the dirt will go everywhere.  :-[
However, it does sound like you might have some other problem. When the EGR valve sticks, it basically feels like the car doesn't have a Turbo. It works fine apart from that at a certain rpm when you expect power, there's nothing more. It will still rev up to the limiter, albeit very slowly.
Let's hope it's your EGR valve and nothing else! Good luck!


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: Martin Tyas on June 05, 2009, 12:37:20 pm
The diaphagms are identical between the original style EGR and the later ones with the black plastic solenoid housing Stuart and the chances are that you will find the same as most in that it will be heavily carboned and probably a small particle of carbon lodged in one of the diaphragms. You will wonder how such a small piece of carbon holding open the valve by about a millimetre or so can make such a massive difference to the engine performance. The reason is that it's doing what it supposed to but all the time instead of when needed and that is recirculating exhaust gases into intake... so less oxygen to assist the ignition of the fuel and resultant poor performance. The further the valve is wedged open the higher the proportion of exhaust gas there is in the fuel/air mixture and the bigger the reduction in engine power.

Unless they modified the solenoid and spring when they changed to the black plastic housing version of the EGR I'm not convinced it is anything more than a manufacturing cost reduction... a cheaper moulded plastic housing rather than steel. And even if the solenoid has changed I'm still not convinced that it would make any difference because the way the EGR operates is that it is mechanically closed i.e. spring pressure and electro-mechananically opened by actuation of the solenoid. So to make it less prone to being held open by small particles of carbon it would have to have a higher spring pressure keeping it closed and therefore also a stronger solenoid to compensate for the higher spring pressure.

Hope that a good clean resolves the problem

Martin


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: stu.s on June 05, 2009, 08:29:07 pm
Thanks for your replies, but curiosity got the better of me and I removed my valve this evening.  I am including a couple of pics of the EGR valve just after I got it out.  It does look the same as the earlier one, and does have lots of carbon.  But I'm afraid of the verdict of you more knowledgeable chaps out there about the vast amount of oil on it.  Does this mean what  think it means? Am I now shopping for a new turbo?


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: TheJoker on June 06, 2009, 11:49:36 am
Eeek!!  :o One that's worse than mine!  ::) I don't know where the oil is from, but it's not good.  :-\ I'll let the experts chime in as I don't know.  :-[


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: stu.s on June 08, 2009, 12:52:10 am
Hi, just thought I'd show you the latest developments to get your opinions.  I cleaned the valve (quite easily with an aerosol can of brake cleaner), and the 1st picture shows the transformation - though you can see I'm no photographer!  I refitted it, then ran the car for 2 miles (3.2km).  I could give it 100% throttle without the zig-zag symbol coming up and it going into limp mode, so that was good!  However, the car was still fairly gutless   >:(
When I got home, I did a pit-stop tyle removal and refit of the EGR to see if it had any trace of oil.  The second photo is the EGR after just 2 miles of quite hard driving, but not flat out all the way. I'm betting that whatever is wrong, it's expensive  :(
Is there anywhere else that the oil could be comming from except the turbo?  The next thing is this, I need to use the car occasionally.  If it is the turbo, will I be any less at risk of doing huge damage if I grive it as gently as possible, trying not to use the turbo too much?  I can't afford a turbo until at least the end of July, so I am really nervous.


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: TheJoker on June 08, 2009, 10:13:49 am
I'm no expert on this, but I believe that your turbo really needs attention. If you don't give it attention you might end up with the whole engine blowing up. What can happen is that the intake will create enough vacuum to suck the oil from the turbo/engine into the cylinders where it will ignite just like diesel, resulting the engine over revving resulting in catastrophical failure. Because the fuel (i.e the oil from the engine) is coming via an uncontrolled source the governor that usually prevents the engine from over revving won't have any effect.

The only thing you can hope for is that you're on a clear motorway and can stick it in highest gear and let it run until there's no more oil in the engine, but enough to not cause damage to the engine. Otherwise all you can do is to push the clutch down and coast to a safe spot on the side and wait for it to go bang.  :'(

Short answer is, service your turbo now - and this is coming from one that's got a turbo that needs attention now. I'm led to believe that you can take the turbo off and put a refurbished one in, and send your old one off. This shouldn't be too costly, but I don't know the exact details. If you can lift the car up by yourself and get to the turbo, then you might be able to do this job by yourself.


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: colin4255 on July 16, 2009, 12:14:02 am
Looks like a lot of people having similar problems.  This may be echoing some or all of the above, BUT what I have found in 30,000 miles of driving my Grand Espace 2.2dci is this.

1. DO NOT use cheap supermarket diesel in your Espace, it more than halves the time it takes to clog an EGR valve and more than one diesel engineer has told me it will eventually kill your engine, knacker your very expensive fuel injctors or do even more damage possibly.  Every garage mechanic I know has the same view of cheap diesel and it causes premature isues in many, many diesel engines, not just Renaults.   Cheap fuel is cheap for a reason. Supermarkets buy up on the 'spot market' all the fuel that the major oil companies reject as not good enough for their own use. Too much sulhpur, incorrect additive levels  etc (remember the panic Tesco's caused a few year ago with their bad batch of petrol?)   Same generally applies here.  If you can afford it, use Shell V-Power, or Total Excellium hi-grade diesel fuels, these burn more cleanly, give better mpg and do not put as much crap through your EGR system. A friend of mine has just had a £6,000 bill for a BMW 5 series engine he ran for three years from new on suprmarket cheap diesel. BMW took the engine back to Germany and carefully analysed it, eventually advising him that poor quality fuel was solely reponsible for its premature death.

2. Deisels work better with more air, so change your air filter every 5,000 miles, not the 10 or even 15,000 mile intervals the dealers will tell you. By then they'll have cut the air supply considerably and this will make your engine run too rich and therfore increase the build up of crap in your EGR system too!. They cost less than £10, take 2 minutes to fit and will definitely help your EGR system clan AND keep your fuel conumption up.

3. Don't drive them like a girl. The same Diesel engineers have told me you need to 'cane' a diesel engine hard at least once a month to get rid of all the soot that builds up in the EGR system. (Unlike some on this forum I would NOT reccommend holding the engine on full throttle in low gear for a mile - no need really). The more short runs you do, the more you need to think about this. Diesels rev lower than petrol engines and are designed for use with higher mileages as a rule. Short runs they hate. Periodically giving them a good blast won't hurt them in any way and a a diesel typically does not do much worse to the gallon no matter how hard you drive them, you are not going to hurt your wallet too much either. 

Be aware though that you should NEVER rev the nuts off any turbo engine or drive it hard and then shut it down while red hot without letting it idle for at least a minute or two to stabilise the temperature on both sides of the turbo - otherwise you could crystalise the oil in the turbo oil feed pipe and next time you run it, the turbo could go bang! You have ben warned.

4. What I did last time an EGR valve I'd had fitted by Renault started sticking after only 8 months (8 months!!), was I went an bought a new one from Partco (about £105 ish)  and I took out the old one, cleaned up the housing and fitted the new one myself. Car is going a bomb now.  Meantime, I have thoroughly cleaned the nearly new  old one, made sure the valves move freely, bagged it up and will re-fit it as soon as the latest one starts acting up! Then, depending on how long the new one lasts I will repeat this process again. They are a bit tricky to fit (one bolt in particular is hard to get at), but the job can be done by a home mechanic with some patience.

5. Injector cleaning.  I also, twice a year, put diesel fuel injector cleaner in my tank. Its quite cheap and keeping the injectors clean and free from inevitable crap build up will both save you having to replace them at £450 plus each! and will alo help keep them working at peak efficiency which in turn will keep the build up of soot in your EGR system to a minimum too.

6. Engine oil. Don't use cheap engine oil, it doesn't help either. I only ever use fully synthetic 5w 40 oil in my diesel espace. Another thing I learned from diesel fitters and engineers I have spoken to. It cleans the inside of the engine better, lubricates better and helps keep the turbo from failing. Very costly for nearly 8 litres but cheapr than an engine re-build.  Also, I change my oil and filter every 7500 - 8000 miles. 15000 miles betwen oil changes on a dirty smoking diesel turbo engine is way too long an interval.

Hope this helps.

Colin


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: colin4255 on July 16, 2009, 12:37:14 am
Roy or anyone,

Can you tell me if that outer valve is meant to be fuly closed and where the gas it does vent goes to please? I'm intrigued, and Diesel is still £1:15.9p where I live!!

Yes both valves are meant to close and seal.  If one of yours does not then strictly it is faulty.  However, I have never looked where the passage leads and as I don't have a vehicle to check, I can't say for certain, but surely as the gas comes from the exhaust and leads to the inlet, the dirty side is from the exhaust and the clean side leads to the intake?  When open the gases pass the valves to get to the intake.  When closed the clean air passes the EGR valve to get to the inlet, but does not mix with any exhaust gas?  So it leads to the inlet?  If I get a chance to see one, I'll take a look.  As I said in another thread though, I'm no longer doing work for a local Renault dealer, so I won't necessarily get the chance that soon.

Roy

From what I know of how the EGR valve works, there is a steel pipe coming from the top RHS of the cylinder head (exhaust emission side) which leads in to the front of the EGR housing adjacent to the valve. At low speeds and on light throttle the EGR valve stays closed. When you accelerate hard, the solenoid on the valve end actuates as it senses heavy acceleration loading and the valve opens and feeds excess exhaust gas (this comes down the steel pipe from the engine) through the valve which in turn releases it down a large plastic pipe into the turbocharger air intake system. The idea is to take the NOX gases created when you floor it and feed them back through the turbo intake systm, so they are effectively re-used by the turbo, burning up all the NOX in the gases in the process. Its really a reducd misions thing.  Some people have blanked off the exhaust gas feed pipe with a plate. The EGR valve still operates but no dirty carbon filled gases get into the valve, housing or the turbo. The jury's out on this, as the gas has the effect of actually cooling down the turbo intake system, so possibly if you block the egr sytem off the turbo will run hotter and fail faster. On most Land Rover Diesel engines landrover themslves offer an EGR blanking plate as they suffer from sticking valves too!  The difference is possibly in how they use the gases produced?

You should definitely NOT have signs of oil on an EGR Valve. Its the sign of a soon to be beggared turbocharger. The way to tell if the turbo is letting oil back up ino the EGR system, is to un-clamp the large plastic pipe that connects to the bottom of the EGR housing and take a look inside it with a torch. If its full of wet, oily deposits - that is coming from your Turbo system and means your turbo oil feed pipe seals are leaking! AND it needs fixing fast.  BE VERY CAREFUL however, NOT to let any dirt or muck get down into that pipe, as when start your engine, it too, will get sucked straight into the turbo and will screw it up for you.  If you are planning to clean an EGR Valve or an EGR housing, MAKE sure that firstly, you diconnect the large plastic hose/pipe that comes out of the botom of the EGR housing and fully plug it with a really clean, lint or fibre free rag (better still cover it with cling film) and move it out of your way before you start knocking any carbon deposits or crap loose from the EGR housing.   Even the smallest amount of crap getting into that pipe will mean it gets sucked right into the turbo and you will damage the turbo almost immediately you start th engine!


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: stu.s on August 10, 2009, 05:17:03 pm
I've been continually skint for months now, so have not been able to investigate or rectify any faults with my 2.2dCi as yet.  If my turbo is on the way out, then I am still on borrowed time and count my blessings!  In case there is anything I am missing, I will bring you experts out there up to speed with my engine's "characteristics" and the car's history.
The faults . . .
When I start the car from cold, I get an enormous cloud of white/blue smoke from the exhaust.  This takes a few minutes usually to improve to the point where I don't feel like I am deploying a "007 smokescreen" anymore.  However, what happens then, is that with any more than gentle acceleration, I get huge clouds of black smoke from the exhaust as the revs rise.  All of this while feeling like I could run faster!  I doubt I would even have 50bhp at the wheels on a rolling road!
Now the history . . . .
Whe we bought the car it was quick, powerful, and did not seem to smoke any more than the majority of diesels.  It was VERY overdue a timing belt change though, so we parked it up until we could get this done.  My neighbour said that he was a mechanic, currently out of work, and would do it for the cost of parts plus a few quid extra.  To cut a long story shorter, he did not lock it, it would not re-start as the timing was now out.  A few angry days later I got the car back as a non runner and gave it to a work collegue to look at.  He is a fitter/mechanic at work, and does private work to suppliment his wages,  After removing the head, he told me that every valve had been hit, but none were bent.  He also reported some deep scratches inside the cylinders, and a small chunk out of one of the pistons!  He was under the impression that most of the cylinder/piston damage was old though.  He re-ground the valves (I think this is what he said!) and replaced the head gasket and timing belt - correctly!  Since then it has been gutless and drinks amazing amounts of oil.  It has not been compression tested, but if this is poor, could it explain the oil on the EGR valve and the excessive useage? Or is it almost definately the turbo?  The air filter has not been changed for a while, is it worth me changing this anyway?
I have been told that the only reliable cure is a new/reconditioned engine (or at my budget, one from a breakers/salvage yard). 
ANY advice that any of you can offer would be greatly appreciated.    Sorry to ramble on so much, but thought you should know all the details (everything I know anyway!) before giving advice.
We love the car, we just wish it had more power and cost less in oil!


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: colin4255 on August 10, 2009, 11:48:00 pm
your initial paragraph abouthe black smoke and gutless engine was typical of s stuck EGR valve - when mine jammed on the motorway, it poured out clouds of black smoke and ran like a milk float. Cleaning the EGR housing and fitting a new £110 EGR valve fixed it completely - for about a year till it jammed again (see other posts - its all about carbon deposits building up and causing the valve to stick partially open - rendering the system useless , effectively reducing turbo boost to zero and it will keep on happening as the design is just very poor. I now have a spare egr valve to fit and carry it with me, and when one sticks I replace it then clean up the jammed one ready for when it will undoubtedly happen again. Good quality fully synthetic 5W40 oil is what I use ands change it every 7500 miles or so and replace air filters every 5,000 miles - it runs fine.

Now the later stuff about the timing belt and the massive oil useage.  I assume when the second mechanic put the car back together properly, apart from being still gutless it ran OK - no nasty noises, no use of water etc?  Did he find any damage? You need to asl him to be very specific and then let us all know what he says?  The high oil useage could be caused by any number of things.  If the pistons or bores are damaged, it will be burning the oil and you'd get blue smoke out of the exhaust under high acceleration and you'd be able to smell it (different to diesel smell), but high oil use plus oil in the egr valve is likely to be down to badly worn turbo oil seals. If they fail while youre driving the turbo will start running off the engine oil and even if you turn it off, it'll likely keep going till it drains the sump of oil and the engine seizes up (again see other posts on this site about turbo seal faulire - its not pretty).

Of course if you still haven't fixed the egr valve thats the most likely cause of poor performance, but the high oil use sounds like a more serious issue and could be damage to the engine boresand/or piston rings, badly seated valves or  worn turbo seals - you could have all three?

I'm not really sure what the best advice is. A new egr valve if you fit it yourself is going to cost around £110 (Eurocarparts.com) and the car would benefit from a new air filter, but none of that will stop it using oil - you really need to get a decent garage to take a look and advise you. Do compression tests and look at the turbo system and its feed pipes etc- badly seated valves could also cause oil to burn but they would not be as likely to cause the raw wet oil to end up in the egr valve as the engine would burn the oil - the egr valve would get sooted up much faster than normal if this was what was happening but thats all. If the oil in the egr system is wet raw oil, it points towards failing turbo oil seals - I think.

I'm sure our peers will also have their ideas. There are some really clever people who contribute to this forum who know a lot more than I do.



Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: stu.s on August 11, 2009, 08:49:02 am
Thanks for so much information Colin - even if it does sound like bad news!  The second mechanic has told me that there were several areas of damage to the bores and one piston with a small chunk missing from the top edge.  The car ran fine when I got it back except for the power loss, and a slightly louder tapping noise which is only audible when accelerating, and quickens as the revs rise.  I don't remember this noise being like it when I first got the car, but I could be wrong.  When I next have a day off from work on Friday, I intend to remove the EGR valve and clean it up again, I will change the air filter at the same time.  From what I have read, this should solve the power issue, and also the black smoke.  I will fully expect this to be replaced with blue smoke from the oil!
I suspect you could be right and I have all three problems causing the oil useage.  It uses about a litre every 200 miles (ish), so surely this amount can't just be due to the bore damage?  Maybe a salvaged engine (complete with turbo) is the best option.  Still, I will try to get it confirmed that this is the best course of action before doing it, as I have nowhere near the skills of tools required to change the engine, and I should imagine the labour bill will be rather large!


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: colin4255 on August 14, 2009, 11:32:33 pm
I think you may be right, my espace has run about 7,000 miles since last oil change and I have not had to put a drop in it. It just doesn't use oil at all - leastways not enough to see a drop on the dipstick.  As I change it every 8,000 miles or so in any case, would not expect it to use enough for me to see any difference.

One other thing - are there any obvious oil leaks - you have had quite a few big bits of the engine apart? Assume no oil in the water? but is it possible its just leaking? I guess you'd see a pool on the drive though - but as these things have a bloody great plastic under-tray - maybe not?? Its worth a look?

I'm sorry your having so much trouble - these things are a pain in the arse even when they are working properly!

One thing, when you clean the EGR valve, DO NOT be tempted to scrub at it with wire wool, or anything that could scratch the valve faces or your work will be in vein. They are a bugger to clean. I bought a 2 ltr can of brake cleaner, tipped some into   a glass  jug and immersed the valve,(metal part only - not the solenoid on the top!) left it to soak for an hour and repeated with clean fluid, only cleaning it with a toothbrush. Its vital you don't scratch or damage the two valve surfaces where they mate with the valve housing or gas will get by even when the thing is clean and shuts properly!

When its clean, check it moves backwards and forwards properly before you re-fit it. Also, make sure you disconnect the battery before you try unbolting it - if you drop a spanner, the starter motor is just below the egr hosuing and you could short something out if your not careful  Good luck. Hope it gets better for you.


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: colin4255 on August 19, 2009, 12:34:33 am
Stu, I just had a thought. The tapping noise on acceleration, if its not too pronounced is likely to be a sticking hydraulic valve lifter, or one which  has not been able to adapt to the new clearances now the valves have been re-ground.  They work for years usually, but if you've had the head apart and ground the valves, its likely to be a slight clearance issue and probably nothing to worry about. Usually, unless damaged and in need or replacement, people don't re-grind or re-lap valves any more and its possible the hydrailic lifters just can't quite cope witht the change in tolerance now the valves have been ground - their adjustment is not infinite and they work to quite small tolerances.

I had a word yesterday with an engine bulider I know and he said that so long as there is no hole in the piston, its not unusual for them to run OK with small chunks missing though the damage to the bores, if its quite bad, would explain it using oil as its probably burning the stuff.  Again though, you'd be able to smell that from the exhaust and the exhaust smoke would be more blue than grey.  Of couse over time that missing chunk of piston could easily turn itself into a hole - they do get quite hot.  Maybe worth doing a compresssion test on each cyclinder?


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: Einar on September 16, 2009, 08:08:16 pm
Remove the fu***  thing >:(. I did it 2 years ago. And have`t had any problems after that. :) :). Just keep it con. and hide it under the pipes for the AC. Replace the EGR "manifold" with a straight pipe, and block the hole in the exhaust manifold. After this modification, the care felt stronger on low revs. :) ;D


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: roy4matra on September 17, 2009, 10:21:09 pm
Remove the fu***  thing >:(. I did it 2 years ago. And have`t had any problems after that. :) :). Just keep it con. and hide it under the pipes for the AC. Replace the EGR "manifold" with a straight pipe, and block the hole in the exhaust manifold. After this modification, the care felt stronger on low revs. :) ;D

Whilst I'm not defending Renault or the rule makers, doing what you've done, may solve your problem, but it doesn't do much for the environment as you've increase the pollution levels that the system is designed to lower.  If everyone takes that attitude with engines, we may as well not have the rules in the first place, and we are back where we started.  It's like those that remove catalytic convertors and replaced them with normal exhaust pipe sections.  Also as M.o.T. gas checks get better or tighter, these cars may not pass anymore.  Complain to the manufacturers, complain to your M.P., complain to the press, and refuse to buy cars from manufacturers that won't listen to their customers, or make unreliable products, but we shouldn't be nullifying the effects of pollution reduction, otherwise we may as well not have any.

Roy


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: cestrianguy on October 28, 2009, 10:12:15 pm
Time to add my own ďsadĒ story regarding the EGR valve.
Bought my Espace Auto 2.2 dci in August í05 with 9K miles on the clock. Many miles happy motoring then the dreaded zig-zag warning sign started mid í08 with 50K on the clock.
Car into Renault whereupon new EGR valve fitted together with new inlet manifold - £1300 !! Apparently, the failing EGR had led to a build up in pressure that had caused the manifold to split Ė not sure this sounds correct but after the work it ran like a dream.
Anyway Ė almost 9 months later and the zig-zag starts again Ė back to Renault who canít re-create the fault but whatever they did (probably cleaned the EGR) it was back to normal.
Just in the last few weeks the engine has started to surge when held at a steady speed (very noticeable at 40 mph and 70 mph). With each surge is a cloud of smoke from the exhaust. Donít know if this is EGR related or not (no zig-zag warning) but Iím tempted to take it out for an inspection and clean.

Any thoughts ?

P.S. I have now just (belatedly) switched away from supermarket fuel and changed to high-spec oil for my oil changes (my father had warned me about this for years but.........!)


Title: Re: EGR valve - 2.2dCi
Post by: TheJoker on October 29, 2009, 10:31:05 am
Donít know if this is EGR related or not (no zig-zag warning) but Iím tempted to take it out for an inspection and clean.

Any thoughts ?

With the right sockets, removing the EGR valve for inspection is a 10 minute job. You have nothing to lose to have a look.  8)